Hopkins rips Calzaghe over recent comments
by SC on Dec 13, 2008 11:48 AM EST
in News Analysis
30 comments
Source: The Ring
"I don’t know where he’s been, on Mars or something," Hopkins said. "Maybe he missed the numbers that (Oscar De La Hoya-Manny Pacquaio) generated – 1.25 million pay-per-view buys in a recession. That’s 70, 80 million dollars in revenue. And he’s says boxing is dead?"Maybe it’s dead when he fights."
Hopkins was just getting started.
"If he wants to retire, he should go ahead and retire and keep his mouth shut. He has his wins, his undefeated record. He should go join his family. Other than that, he should shut up. And tell him Bernard says that."
This is pretty much the stance a lot of the boxing world has taken in regard to Calzaghe's "boxing is a dying sport" statements. In his chat this week, Dan Rafael's reaction was, basically, "Screw Calzaghe."
I'm kind of in the same boat. I respect Joe as a fighter, I respect his career as much as is possible, and I think he's one of the best in the world. He's a great fighter.
One of the big things here is I think we're all sick and damned tired of hearing this boxing is dying, boxing is dead talk. It's not. We know it. So we don't need one of the best fighters in the sport spreading this moronic myth around any more than it already gets spread around by the yokels that don't watch boxing and thus don't know anything about it.
The "boxing is dead" talk comes from people that simply don't know anything. No, it's not as popular as it used to be, but this started a long time before MMA became a highly-watched sport in the States.
I truly believe that MMA's rise has essentially no impact on boxing. I don't think they're taking customers. I don't think they're taking fans. I don't think MMA has much at all to do with boxing, because boxing's numbers aren't really down. The popularity freefall of boxing started years ago. The only consistent U.S. draw since the retirement of Mike Tyson has been Oscar de la Hoya. Floyd Mayweather drew on any major level for two fights -- one with Oscar, one with Hatton.
Calzaghe's comments are annoying because -- as Hopkins is saying -- it just reeks of jealousy. Again, I think the world of Joe Calzaghe as a fighter in the squared circle. Honest to God, I do. But American fans do not care about Joe Calzaghe. His style of fighting is absolutely unappealing for a lot of people, his record has been crapped on on by 80% of the boxing web sites people read (and without newspapers caring, online coverage really matters in boxing), and I don't mean to sound biased against him, but he's smug and kind of hard to like.
I can't imagine Joe Calzaghe appealing to American fans in general, which may well say more about Americans than it does Joe Calzaghe, but the fact is with all his accolades and titles and all the good things you can say about him, he's a non-factor in America as far as fan interest goes.
Fortunately for Joe (and yeah, I realize I'm going off-topic a bit), boxing's popularity is not confined to America. It is still wildly popular in Germany, in England, in Japan, in Canada, in Mexico, in Puerto Rico, etc.
I do think Hopkins is right about Calzaghe looking at his own failures to draw on American PPV and American TV (neither Hopkins-Calzaghe nor Calzaghe-Kessler exactly lit up the ratings) and deciding that it must be some fatal flaw in the system. It's not. It's just that he's not a capable of being that guy. Sorry no one wanted to pay 50 bucks to see you dismantle a washed-up Roy Jones and three club fights, Joe.
I have no worries about the state of boxing. I don't think you can easily replace Oscar, and the only fight that's doing a million domestic buys might be Floyd against Manny (and that one would need some wicked promotion and a better economy), but that doesn't mean there aren't huge fights and great fights to be made all over the sport. The reality is this: a fight doesn't have to sell a million on pay-per-view to be a great success or a memorable attraction. To think that it does is horribly off-base.
As far as Calzaghe saying Oscar isn't a full-time fighter and hasn't been a top fighter in years, Hopkins had this to say:
"That’s jealousy, envy," said Hopkins, a partner in De La Hoya’s Golden Boy Promotions. "They [Calzaghe vs. Roy Jones Jr.] didn’t do well on pay-per-view, under 300,000. So when you start hearing things like that, it’s just jealousy."It’s easy to kick someone when they’re down. I’m not saying this because I’m his friend and a partner, but Oscar’s record speaks for itself. Look at what he’s acccomplished over 20 years."
Frankly, I think Joe's about right about Oscar as a fighter for the most part. And Oscar's record does speak for itself -- great as he was, he lost all of his biggest fights. Not all of his big fights, but all of his biggest fights.
And every single one of them was money in the bank for everyone involved, so point taken there, too.
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The irony is
That Calzaghe is a prime example of the disease he’s supposedly diagnosing. Yes, he’s a great champion. But nobody knew that for years because instead of fighting the top guys, he spent years making play dates with guys like Kabary Salem. It’s when the greats spend most of their career ducking other greats in favor of cheap mandatories and easy mismatches that the sport suffers. Calzaghe finally got out of that with fantastic wins over Lacy, Kessler, and Hopkins. But the way he talked about his fight with Jones makes it sound like he deserved adulation and praise no matter who he stepped in the ring with. That’s the selfishness and egomania that does the sport in.
by schraubd on Dec 13, 2008 1:51 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
While I agree with some of what you said, selfishness and egomania have always been at the core of boxing—some might even say the qualities are part of it’s lifeblood. I don’t have to remind you of the ego-heads of boxing history who didn’t have a problem making money, drawing crowds, and making the sport better known to casual fans. Indeed, I would say the opposite is more likely to be true. It’s the calm, no-drama boxers that lull the fans to sleep and reduce interest. Fans love loudmouths, and boxing websites like this one love it too, because it gives us something to talk about.
That said, Calzaghe is dead wrong about boxing dying, and I think Scott is spot-on in his analysis here. I’ve been a frequent defender of Calzaghe in the past, but his boneheaded comments described here only add to the tired line that boxing is dying and MMA is killing it.
As Scott points out, boxing suffered its fall from prestige long before MMA, and there is no hard evidence whatsoever that MMA is drawing fans away from boxing. It’s a myth, pure and simple. We can speculate about some hidden motive on Calzaghe’s part I suppose, but that just speculation. I’ll stick to what we know for sure: he is wrong. Period. If anything, fan interest and PPV buys are on a slight uptick, though if Oscar retires, as I hope he does, that trend will be harder to maintain.
Even more important is the other idea Scott touches on, which is that the “boxing-is-dead” meme is an American misunderstanding. Tell that to Filipino, Mexican, or Puerto Rican fans, who continue to pack stadiums and buy shows, often in drastically increased numbers. Then there’s the whole Ricky Hatton phenomena as well. I could go on.
I don’t mind egomania in boxing when it manifests itself in the right way: taking on all comers because you’re convinced that nobody can beat you. Calzaghe’s was different — he was so full of himself he didn’t even see the need to step in the ring with anybody worth while for years because in his mind he was already a great champion, and it’d be redundant for him to “prove it”.
the real irony?
the real irony is that boxing now is too much about ppv and the money making prospects of promoters, how can all you guys diss a fighter who was a champion for 10 years? if calzaghe was american you would all love him, the fact is nobody in america would fight joe because he wasnt big in america and it wouldnt make sense fighting someone who would beat you and get no money, that how this sport is now, kessler would destroy any middle/super middle going, but hes european and wont make ppv cash, you said calzaghe beat an old bhop, look what he did to pavlik, you still bag calzaghe out, calzaghe didnt duck anyone, it took him 10 years to get a shot with any of the big american fighters, why would he bother fighting mugs now? hes 37, hes playing your game. Im not saying he would have beaten a prime rjj or bhop but those matches would never have happened cause the money/risk was not worth it, thats the sport the world over, calzaghe never had anything to lose then did he? stop hating him. He’s never looked like losing in 47 fights, hes a legend, hes not american, get over it
Hopkins just seems like a guy you would love to hang out with seeing a boxing fight. I agree with most if not all what he says this time. He always have something insightful even if you don’t agree with it.
Calazghe just seems butthurt that other people have been more successful in the box office compared to him. I am pretty sure that Calazghe isn’t one of the boys within the boxing community and all of what he has said just is a backlash that he isn’t loved or respected enough.
Take your gloves and go home, Joe.
Jealous much Joe? What are you going to say when Pacquiao-Hatton makes a ton of money? Are you going to throw your countryman under the bus?
However, who is going to carry the torch when Oscar leaves? I think it is up to the promoters. The fight cards have to be better. Stack them two main events and a decent undercard. That should be done with every PPV fight or any HBO or Showtime event.
Word is already out that there will be less PPV fights next year, though we’ll have to wait to see if that sticks especially since two of them (Hatton-Pacquiao, Margarito-Cotto II) are already in the works, and even the Pavlik and Cotto doubleheader at $40 is no cheapie. But yeah, I’d love to see the sport get to the point where maybe underneath Margarito-Cotto II, you stack Vazquez-Lopez or something like that. Who the hell does that hurt? What boxing fan won’t pay for that?
"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum
by SC on Dec 13, 2008 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
unless the event does at least as well it would if split into two shows, it hurts the promoter that has to pay a higher overall fighter purse on less revenue. it probably hurts the second billing fighters too since they’re likely the ones that’ll get the biggest haircut on their pay.
i agree that stacked cards would be preferable for fans and thus for the sport as a whole, but it’s unlikely to happen with splintered promotion. the UFC does it because that promotion is essentially a monopoly, which a) depresses fighter salaries and b) allows for a longer-run, sport-as-a-whole strategy, since the sport is economically synonymous with the UFC brand.
by boxingstudent on Dec 13, 2008 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I agree....
The co-main events don’t have to be of the more recognizable fighters. Fighters along the lines of Cunningham, Adamek, Amir Khan….heck, even Chad Dawson who is champion yet many people don’t know anything about him. I would like to test that theory and see which individual will be hurting in the pockets.
with the economy the way it is...
Pay haircuts are probably coming for a lot of guys in the Vazquez-Lopez class anyway. Obviously promoters want to try and make the most money, and I get their reasons for saving big fights as headliners, but how much of a live gate are they really making for stuff like Casamayor-Katsidis or that awful drawing Marquez-Juarez fight from ’07? Is it really worth it?
Vazquez-Lopez, actually, is probably a step higher than even necessary. Obviously that would be an awesome card, but there are so many genuine, rather inexpensive fights to be made that wouldn’t turn a show into a non-profit situation, you know? Anything but the garbage we’re being fed right now. Stuff like Luevano-Santiago is more what I’m talking about, and sure they’ve done things like that, but it’s getting to the point where they aren’t even giving us that level of fight, and they’re doing so happily.
"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum
by SC on Dec 13, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
sure there are a lot of fights that wouldn’t break the bank, but unless they’re profit-maximizing they aren’t going to be made. if undercard fights aren’t going to add more revenue than they add costs, they aren’t happening. plus the marginal value that an undercard fight might add is pretty hard to pin down.
actually, your point about a bad economy might mean that we do see better overall events. the fighters are going to be willing to show for less money and the customer is going to be looking for more value.
by boxingstudent on Dec 13, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
You tell him, Bernard
While boxing’s popularity isn’t the same as it was 25 years ago (and more—just finished reading Cinderella Man. Weird to read about a time when the Heavyweight Champ was the most famous man in the world), there are still great fighters and great fights out there. In fact, Hopkins is one of them. I saw a replay of Hopkins-Pavlik in a hotel room the day after I got married, and I totally got caught up in it (good thing my new wife was in the shower at the time—otherwise I’m sure I would’ve caught hell for it). Great fight.
by Hatton_Wonderland on Dec 13, 2008 3:30 PM EST reply actions
"Don't confuse a real fight with a boxing fight"
That’s a comment I read from an MMA fan.
It’s funny… In my entire life I have only had four fights from what I can remember. All in High School. We punched the shit out of each other… it was great and stupid. But that was High School. However, according to this moron a boxing fight is not a real fight. So apparently a real fight is where two grown as men hold each others in bear hugs on the mat and beat each others into submission. Holy shit! After all this time, I thought I was beating the shit out of people in HS by decking them on the face and giving them broken noses for trying to rob me or just tried to pick fights for no apparent reason (I went to a real bad High School the ones you see in the movies) I thought I was really fighting to claim my territory, but now I know non of it real. Wow! Thanks MMA fan for clarifying that to me. While boxers box the Art of boxing to annihalate their opponents in a real fight, the real fight actually turns out to be two dudes that may fight for 3 seconds [if you are lucky] in a circular ring. Wow 3 seconds! I waited months… I am talking months for this fight. And now it was finished in 3 seconds. Whe the hell am I supposed to do in the remaining time? Finish my first drink? Why bother there is nothing to enjoy it with. Boxing fight is the real fight not no snuff fest grapling and grinding infestation.
Watching Manny Pacquiao fight live--great...
Watching Manny Pacquiao shadow boxing on the roof of an abandoned building--priceless
without addressing the merits of that paragraph, i’ll say that i’m loving the phrase “boxers box the Art of boxing”.
by boxingstudent on Dec 13, 2008 4:00 PM EST up reply actions
I think...
the point that MMA fans are trying to get across (and I am obviously quite a big MMA fan) is that the VAST majority of “real fights” do end up on the ground. The amount of “stand and punch” fights in the real world is actually quite small.
That being said the relative merits of boxing or MMA aren’t how fights work in the “real world.” They are sports with specific guidelines and rules not street brawls. The truth is that it is not MMA vs. Boxing in a war to one sport’s death. There is not a reason why the two sports can’t co-exist and have a decent amount of crossover fans (see: me).
The problem is people like you who attack MMA fans and people like MMA fans that attack you. Not that I’m pointing fingers…I’m just saying that there is no reason to continue the us vs. them talk as it benefits neither sport.
And to be honest considering that MMA out draws boxing on PPV draws (in terms of a full year picture) and is by far the bigger “cultural sport” at the moment it does boxing VERY little good in terms of making boxing look fresh because when the numbers are analyzed it lends credence to the (incorrect) opinion that boxing is somehow dying.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 14, 2008 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Im sorry
but in a “real fight” say in a bar…. you never ever ever go to the ground or youre going to get stomped/kicked beat over the head. Bass Rutten has some self defense video where he says that.
I'm not arguing...
that you should or shouldn’t go to the ground. Bas is right, if you are facing more than one guy and end up on the ground grappling with that one guy it is going to end badly for you…then again it is probably going to end badly even if you choose to stand and try to strike with them because outnumbered is outnumbered.
But facts are facts…and the majority of “real fights” end up on the ground. That’s just the truth. It is based on research and statistics done by organizations like the FBI. It’s not important though and you’re choosing to focus on a rather unimportant part of what I’m saying.
We’re talking about sports…not real fighting so any arguing on either side that their respective fight is more “real fighting” than the other is pointless and stupid. It’s like football players saying “our sport is more like real life than basketball because sometimes you have to run away from people while you’re carrying shit they want but rarely do you have to throw that shit through a 10 foot high hoop.” The sports have rules which automatically make them NOT like real life…and that is a good thing.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 15, 2008 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
I’m going to be honest and tell you that about 95% of bar fights I’ve seen have wound up on the ground if they weren’t one punch and done. The vast majority of the bar fights I’ve broken up or had a hand in breaking up have been me pulling people up off the ground, away from the other dude.
This happens because 99.9% of us can’t fight worth a shit and someone falls down or they get tangled up and both hit the floor, or they trip…
"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum
by SC on Dec 16, 2008 3:51 AM EST up reply actions
alright ive seen those
but they last all of 10 seconds, and while on the ground the guys are getting kicked in the ribs and stomped on. You dont have time/room to get side control or work through a guard haha so I wouldnt say MMA is any more realistic than boxing.
And in a bar fight, a good straight right will help you a lot more than a good heel lock.
well no
No one MEANS to go down. But they generally do. Neither sport is particularly “real.” If people want to see real brawls then go to a tough man contest or buy Bum Fights off of eBay.
"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum
Well..
I could make the same argument that the takedown defense aspect of MMA is going to keep you from ending up getting put on the floor to begin with…and it isn’t like there is no punching in MMA. So the combination of being able to not go to the ground if you don’t want, and handle yourself on the feet would seem to be a better combination for success than punching with no ability to stop yourself from getting put on your butt.
But again…NEITHER OF THEM ARE REALISTIC! THEY ARE SPORTS! If either of them were realistic there wouldn’t be gloves, or refs…and there would be potential weapons lying around…and friends would be allowed to rush in and hold you down.
I’m trying to get people beyond the “which is more realistic” argument because it doesn’t matter. The sports are only competing in the minds of people who insist that they have to be. There is plenty of space for both to exist and be successful. MMA is drawing good numbers on TV and PPV. Boxing just had a huge fight in DLH/Pacquiao. It isn’t us vs. them unless people force it to be.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Dec 16, 2008 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you there
totally different sports. I was only responding to this comment:
the point that MMA fans are trying to get across (and I am obviously quite a big MMA fan) is that the VAST majority of "real fights" do end up on the ground.
boxing however is dying. Joe is right and people who dont want to admit that are foolish. PPV and Don King have had a lot to do with it.
If NFL games were on PPV, they would make more money, but they would also loose a generation of fans in children who cannot go to the bar and watch the game.
People taking dives and fights being over hyped also has diminished the credibility of the sport.
To get boxing back on its feet, it needs to go grass roots… opening more gyms and getting kids into those gyms. Like MMA is doing. Trendy clothing lines helps as well.
"People taking dives"
Ugh, here we go. I’ll guarantee there were more dives being taken — and substantially so — in the golden age than there are today.
"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum
by SC on Dec 16, 2008 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
but
with far less publicity. Its perception and perception is reality in the sports world. One guy does steroids, everyone is doing steroids. Proof or not you know?
Dont get me wrong. I love boxing. I boxed for years out in LA. Was half way decent and follow the sport.
But Im not naive about its direction and understand why people are loosing interest.
There is something about the drama of an individual sport that is so captivating. Boxing is such an art form and a science when done right. Its also a sport where someone can will their way out of a bad situation and win over a crowd with toughness alone. I think thats what it has over mma. You cant weather an armbar.
Calzaghe's comments are annoying because -- as Hopkins is saying -- it just reeks of jealousy
truest words of the post. i dont understand calzage and his act is getting old and i think thats one of the main reasons he cant sell. Roy sold more ppv buys in a fight against the shell of the man that used to be tito trinidad without a 24/7 and i think that has everything to do with joe’s annoying personality.
on the topic of boxing dying i think benard has a point there are still people ordering these fights and loving boxing. people for some reason dont understand that (by my count) there are more boxing matches on tv every week than NHL games. Sure there are less mainstream fans around boxing then there were, for instance, during the mike tyson era. but i think that leads to more intelligent fans having more intelligent discussions on online forums like this. thats important because most of the coverage of boxing is online, like sc mentioned, and if it were a bunch of mainstream fans who dont really know what theyre talking about some more knowledgable fans would be turned off the site or even sport. boxing isnt dead because of the quality of fights we continue to see and it wont die because of the quality of fights on the horizion, calzage could get in on that by taking fights the boxing public wants to see (dawson, glen johnson and for me personally as a b-hop fan a rematch) instead opting to fight the likes of peter manfredo. I hope he stays retired because if he does fight most likey it wont be meaningful fight and because of his smug annoying attitude probaby wont be on us tv.
by thebitb on Dec 13, 2008 5:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Calzaghe and his mouth
Boxing is dead? Is it fuck and you all know that from the wonderful comments above.
Joe is WRONG. Look i am a fan of JC, watched him 12yrs ago before he became a belt holder. He has “always” had a mouth, he comes across smug and cocky ( but he can back that up in the ring guys) and never got on board with the general public until last few years. He tried doing something about his personality around the 02 Brewer fight. And when i say try..to be more media friendly. That night before the fight he even implored fans not to boo through the stars and stripes ..it was a start. Back then JC was stuck on Sky Tv and only known to hardcore. And that hurt him.
The ITV contract came up and of course the Lacy victory. On top of wins over Kessler that Cockyness returned. Hopkins & Jones to follow that we now got a smug egotistical mouthy champ again. Maybe when you are at the top you can talk smack. Because you can..Mr Hopkins. Mr Toney all the time. . JC has just got that personality that grates on people. Deal with it.
BUT what i dont like is people dissing the game. Esp one of its own. Joe you sound like a tit and im a real fan. The game is not dead, its no worse than 15 years ago.. Your self promoted clash was dead. You sound Jealous and you no need to be. Retire on top and shine your award from her majesty. I dont want to hear comments like that from one of boxings best . It leaves a stain to me.
Boxing will be around when we are all not.
Mainstream is brought to you ..
Underground you got to go there...
by dinkman on Dec 14, 2008 7:57 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
To quote DanR blog
• So, Joe Calzaghe said this week that boxing is dead, huh? Way for him to crap all over the sport that made him rich and famous. Boxing is far from dead, but if it’s not what it once was, part of the reason is because of fighters like Calzaghe who think they’re also businessmen and are so egotistical that they think they can be also be a top promoter, yet have no clue. Maybe if Calzaghe, whose own company supposedly co-promoted his November fight with Jones but really did squat, hadn’t dumped experienced promoter Frank Warren, the fight wouldn’t have tanked so badly. If boxing is dead, why in the world did De La Hoya-Pacquiao do 1.25 million PPV buys and generate $70 million in TV revenue and a nearly $17 million live gate? Calzaghe might be a great fighter, but he’s no rocket scientist.
I dont think boxing is loosing fans to MMA
but it is loosing athletes. Kids who would be in boxing gyms are now going to MMA gyms to learn how to roll and kick box. Less athletes means less credibility (american soccer)
There are not a lot of good White American fighters to rally behind. People loved Ward (move in production) and he was no champion. There are a few African American guys, but not enough to draw that demographic.
The same thing is happening to baseball. They do not have the African AMERICAN superstars to draw that demographic, and they started the RBI program to revive baseball in inner cities. Even if these kids dont play pro ball, they will have a love for the game that will make them fans as adults.
Boxing needs to get more people in the gym to a) get more homegrown talent and b) increase the number of people who appreciate boxing for the art form and chess match it is… something MMA cannot offer.
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