Stealing Kevin Iole: Episode 3
by Scott Christ on Jun 18, 2008 6:57 AM EDT
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Couple of good ones this week.
PACQUIAO NOT NO. 1
Why do you think your group of analysts and experts have Pacquiao at No. 1 even though he has essentially lost to Juan Manuel Marquez twice? Manny hasn’t been himself for two years now, yet he still gets ranked high in the pound-for-pound. Joe Calzaghe is hands down the pound-for-pound champ, with Pavlik in a comfortable second. Who is your top five?
Craig Camara
Fresno, Calif.My votes were as follows, from first to 10th: Joe Calzaghe, Cotto, Pacquiao, Juan Manuel Marquez, Pavlik, Israel Vazquez, Rafael Marquez, Cristian Mijares, Ivan Calderon and Chad Dawson. I struggled with whom to put No. 1 and I finally went with Calzaghe. But if Cotto wins impressively against Margarito, I may change my mind. I also struggled at No. 10, but opted for Dawson, the WBC light heavyweight champion, over WBO super flyweight champ Fernando Montiel.
That's right. Yahoo! Sports super expert on boxing and mixed martial arts Kevin Iole thinks that Chad Dawson is the tenth-best pound-for-pound fighter in the game.
Chad Dawson. The very same Chad Dawson that didn't look too good against Glen Johnson, and that's not like saying, "Well Calzaghe didn't look too good against Bernard Hopkins." No one looks good against Hopkins. Glen Johnson came and fought. He didn't fight some perplexing, defense-first style. He fought the Glen Johnson style. He came forward and hurt Dawson many times. Dawson gassed against a much older man. You can make a superb argument that Dawson lost the fight. And this coming off of wins over Epifanio Mendoza and Jesus Ruiz.
Really? Chad Dawson?
PACQUIAO FIGHT RIDICULOUS
Is it only me who finds the idea of a De La Hoya-Pacquiao match shameless? It would be just another money scheme fight in a long line of big-money fights that do nothing for true boxing fans. Pacquiao is naturally 20 pounds lighter than De La Hoya. Style-wise, anyone who knows boxing knows Manny would have no chance. If Oscar were truly in it to prove anything, he would fight the winner of Cotto/Margarito.
Danny L.
PhiladelphiaNo matter what those who are pushing this bout want to say, it’s ridiculous. Manny started as a flyweight and was knocked out in that class. Oscar once held a share of the middleweight title. If Oscar signs to fight Pacquiao, it will be, plain and simply, a money grab. There is nothing competitive or intriguing about this bout.
1. Manny Pacquiao did not start as a flyweight (112). He started as a freaking strawweight. The argument could've been even stronger.
2. "He was knocked out in that class" -- so what? Even if you think that this is a valid point, can we all agree that the Manny Pacquiao that fights here in the land of the present in the year of 2008 is not exactly the same guy that fought Medgoen Singsurat in 1999? Or, his other KO loss, the guy that lost his 12th pro fight to Rustico Torrecamp in 1996?
3. "Oscar once held a share of the middleweight title" -- so what? He was gifted a win over Felix Sturm, then immediately got his ass kicked by Bernard Hopkins at a catchweight of 155 pounds. Also, for the record, I hate when people go, "Well, Oscar was competitive. He was ahead on one of the scorecards!" He shouldn't have been. Keith MacDonald (who had it 77-75 Oscar at the time of stoppage) was wearing Oscar-tinted glasses.
4. "it will be, plain and simply, a money grab" -- so what? Every Oscar fight is, plain and simply, a money grab, and has been for years. Do you think he chose Ricardo Mayorga because Mayorga was going to be great competition for him? He chose Mayorga because it was a guy that he could knock out, and a guy that would help him sell the fight, and a guy that was perfect comebacking material after Hopkins dropped him like a rotten egg.
And I hate to say it (well, no I don't), but Iole thinks the only real fight for Oscar is Miguel Cotto, should Cotto get past Margarito. There isn't anything competitive about Oscar-Cotto, either.
OSCAR’S DONE
The only thing Oscar needs to figure out is to just go away. He’s passed his prime.
Pablo
Hartford, Conn.Oscar remains a quality fighter, but he’s nowhere near as good as his fans think. But if he wants to keep fighting, I have no problem with it, because his bouts are good for boxing because of all the attention they bring the sport.
Just so long as he doesn't fight the most popular boxer on the face of the planet.
LOWER THE LIMIT
Look at the gap between cruiserweight and light heavyweight, where there is a 25-pound differential. I propose that the cruiserweight division should split at 187. This will allow for a 12-pound differential and the inception of a junior cruiserweight division.
Earlie McCrary
Victorville, Calif.The cruiserweight limit used to be 190 and was only recently moved to 200 pounds. I think it’s better at 200. If you go to 187, guys who weigh say, 192, are heavyweights. Is it a fair fight to pit a 192-pound heavyweight against someone like 250-pound Wladimir Klitschko? As for creating a new division, forget it. There are too many divisions as it is.
Ummm, here's a case where Mr. Iole, plain and simply, fails to read a question.
The reader proposes that light heavyweight stay at 175, junior cruiserweight is established with a cap of 187, and cruiserweight stays at a cap of 200 pounds. Iole thinks -- inexplicably -- that the reader says to lower the cruiserweight limit to 187 pounds, which would make his 192-pounders heavyweights. This is not at all what the pride of Victorville, Calif., says. He's saying that the difference between light heavyweight and cruiserweight is too damn big, which it really is.
As for creating a new division, why the hell not? There are too many divisions at is it, sure, but they're not going anywhere, and if you're going to have cutoffs at 105, 108, 112, 115, 118, 122, 126, 130, 135, 140, 147, 154, 160, 168 and 175, why does the next class go up 25 POUNDS?
It's a legitimate question. One that just completely flew over dude's head. Nearly as hilariously off as when he wrote an entire article about MMAer Thiago Alves' family history in banking. Alves' family, for the record, is in...baking. Baking.
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Oscar-Cotto
What’s not competitive about Oscar-Cotto? I see Cotto winning, but I think Oscar holds his own. He wont knock DLH out. It wont be a blowout on the scorecards. I think it will be a good fight. I see it being close to Mosley-Cotto.
This would only be true if the fight was a 4 round bout.
I aways tell the truth. Even when I lie.
by CRAZEDANG1280 on Jun 18, 2008 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Oscar isn’t in Mosley’s league anymore. He’s still pretty good, but I think Cotto is too strong, too active, too tough, and too good. Oscar doesn’t have the left hook he used to and if Cotto felt like it, I think he could bullrush Oscar all night long and trap him in corners at will, then hammer away to the body.
It’s a long way up from Steve Forbes to Miguel Cotto. I think Cotto rather embarrasses Oscar at this point. Now, prime Oscar versus Cotto? Hell yeah, count me in. That would’ve been a good one.
There’s also the fact that Oscar has never beaten an in-prime great fighter, and I think if he was going to, it would have happened by now. He deserves a ton of credit for wanting a fight with Cotto, and it’s the one I’m rooting for, too. Partially because it would make Cotto a superstar. Marciano wailed on Joe Louis, Larry Holmes whomped Muhammad Ali, Michael Moorer pounded on George Fore—oh, wait…
"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum
by Scott Christ on Jun 18, 2008 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
“Oscar isn’t in Mosley’s league anymore. “
I disagree. In what way is Mosley in a different league then Oscar? Any decline in skill and athletic ability due to age has been about the same in both. It’s been about 5 years since they last met, and that was a pretty close fight (honestly I think DLH won the 2nd bout). I don’t think Mosley has gained any superior skill since then. And DLH really hasn’t declined that much since then either. Any weaknesses in his game have been there since he started fighting (one weapon-left hook, getting fatigued).
“if Cotto felt like it, I think he could bullrush Oscar all night long and trap him in corners at will, then hammer away to the body.”
I don’t think so. DLH has good footwork and I don’t remember anybody ever being able to really bully him around except when he traveled to middleweight.
“It’s a long way up from Steve Forbes to Miguel Cotto. I think Cotto rather embarrasses Oscar at this point. “
The only time I’ve ever seen Oscar get embarrassed by anybody was Felix Sturm and Bernard Hopkins and that was because he was in a weight class that was just too high for him. DLH is a veteran and will use his experience to make the fight competitive.
“There’s also the fact that Oscar has never beaten an in-prime great fighter, and I think if he was going to, it would have happened by now. He deserves a ton of credit for wanting a fight with Cotto”
I agree. I never said Oscar would win, just that he would be competitive.
I don’t think he’d be very competitive, really. He was really unimpressive against Forbes. He dominated, but he certainly should have.
Anyway, it’s not that I don’t want to see the fight. But Cotto has gotten better and better while Oscar continues to decline. I think if they do Cotto-Mosley II next year, perhaps, it’ll look a lot different than the first fight, too. And I think Mosley would put a pretty good licking on Oscar right now, too. I’m not saying either of them will knock Oscar out, but I just don’t see how he’s going to combat them.
I also don’t know what Oscar would look like at 147 if they went that low. Draining weight at his age isn’t easy, and he’s not a Mosley or Mayweather that stays in immaculate shape all the time. He’s not Ricky Fatton, either, but Oscar gets doughy between fights.
"Yesterday I was lying, today I am telling the truth." -- Bob Arum
by Scott Christ on Jun 18, 2008 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Prime Oscar vs Cotto
That would had extremely been a great event. Now is like waiting for the 5 to 6 round for Cotto to knock they guy out. You are right Scott, Oscar is boviously no where near Mosley’s league. Cotto had diffficulty putting this guy down. I don’t think it was because of he was the strongest opponent, I think it was Mosley’s body was just way too strong to resist his counter attacks. If you take a look at the tapes, Cotto brutally attacked Mosley’s head and the body and never took him down. However, there was that shot that was shown where Mosley was bleeding from his ear.
Honestly, I can’t disrespect the man in any manner what so ever. Mosley’s has fought and beaten some of the best out there and that was just an immense step for Cotto. But with Oscar that’s more of a give and take situation. He fought some “good” ones and he fought some “better” ones. There’s a difference betweeen those two words; always remember there’s good better and best.
I aways tell the truth. Even when I lie.
by CRAZEDANG1280 on Jun 18, 2008 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions
5-6 rounds for Cotto to knock him out? DLH is pretty good about taking a punch (except for the Hopkins fight, and I doubt getting KO’d by a body punch would happen twice in his career). We’re not talking about Roy Jones here, we’re talking about Oscar De La Hoya.
But can one of you please explain how Mosley is light years ahead of De La Hoya? SC mentioned the Forbes fight, but I fail to see how this is indicative of anything. He pretty much swept the scorecards. Yeah he didn’t knock him out, but so what? I thought he looked like the same DLH he’s always been. Aged a bit? Yes. Washed up? No.
“Mosley’s has fought and beaten some of the best out there and that was just an immense step for Cotto. But with Oscar that’s more of a give and take situation. He fought some "good" ones and he fought some "better" ones.”
I disagree. DLH’s resume of opponents consists of alot of the best fighters. Whittaker, Trinidad, Mosley, Mayweather, Quartey (back then he was one of the best), Hernandez, Hopkins, etc. Most would argue, “Hey he lost most of those!”, but what are Mosley’s big name victories? OSCAR DE LA HOYA. He lost most of his big name fights too (Forrest, Wright, Cotto). Their careers are pretty similar in that respect.
I feel like you guys are treating DLH like he’s Evander Holyfield or Roy Jones; an old guy way past his prime who’s just making a paycheck and getting embarrassed. I just don’t see it.
No one is treating DLH in such manner. He’s a great boxer and still is. He’s not way past his prime, but he does look like he only has atleast 3 or 4 (but 4 seems a bit of a stretch) fights under his belt. The only havoc-ed embarrassement DLH suffered would be the tranny pictures which turned out to be fake. Think about it what is the exact same reason most fighters want to square of with DLH. Look at Winky desperately seeking DLH like a sweaty hooker.
You should probably sharpen your pencil and grab a notebook and do a little more search because DLH is not the only big victory Mosley’s had. The problem is that a lot of people still to this day see no prospect rising from Cotto. Even after he brutally beats and wins the fight for some reason or another he’s still not seen as a heavy favorite with a lot of people but that’s alright.
DLH can say all he wants about it won’t happen again. But this is one of the best body combination boxers in boxing right now. You really think that after 6 rounds of that, DLH won’t be vomiting his stomach for months? According to you, he seems like he’s going to eat right thru them, specially at this peak of DLH’s career, so you must know something that I am not aware of.
All in all wait for the time. We just have to wait and see how Mosley will handle Mayorga if it goes thru. I can say then only then can I judge Mosley with DLH. Not to mention if they fight again Mosley wins it again.
I aways tell the truth. Even when I lie.
by CRAZEDANG1280 on Jun 19, 2008 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
“Think about it what is the exact same reason most fighters want to square of with DLH. Look at Winky desperately seeking DLH like a sweaty hooker.”
1 word: money
I know Mosley has beaten some other big names at lightweight, but you said he’s fought the best and DLH only fought “good and better”, which is grossly inaccurate. Not even close. So I’ll borrow that pencil and notebook after your done looking up DLH’s resume :)~
“DLH can say all he wants about it won’t happen again. But this is one of the best body combination boxers in boxing right now. You really think that after 6 rounds of that, DLH won’t be vomiting his stomach for months? According to you, he seems like he’s going to eat right thru them, specially at this peak of DLH’s career, so you must know something that I am not aware of.”
I never said he’s gonna eat right through them. I said he wont get bullied around. I’m sure he will be pissing blood after the fight. But it’s not gonna lead to a KO, or TKO, or Oscar’s corner throwing in the towel. This fight goes twelve rounds. Again, COTTO WINS. He’s just a better boxer then Oscar IMO. Oscar will get tired like Oscar always does. The bodyshots will definitely contribute to that. I’m guessing scores will be something like 116-112.
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