Scoring a Fight
by Drunken cutman on Nov 15, 2009 5:19 PM EST
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PrintScoring a fight seems far from a pefect system. It appears that everyone has a different opinion of how it should be done, how to view certain events and what deserves the most praise. I thought it would be interesting to post a question which I have been mulling over and see what the BLHers think.
Very simply it is this. If a boxer stands still and blocks ten punches without throwing anything back and then lands one clean punch right after his opponent's flurry does he deserve to get more credit?
It's very unlikely that he would be looked on favourably by the judges but I beleive the judging criteria rewards clean and effective punching which the boxer landing only one punch has more of. This is just a casual question but I'm interested to read people's opinions on it.
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Very simply it is this. If a boxer stands still and blocks ten punches without throwing anything back and then lands one clean punch right after his opponent’s flurry does he deserve to get more credit?
Yeah, of course he does. He hit his opponent once, and his opponent hit him zero times.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
I thought it was quite obviously so too
although below more complicated arguments are made, I would go on that simple basis
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I go with the simple basis myself but judges often don’t. I saw Winky Wright pretty much dominating Jermain for most of the first fight, largely due to his great defense.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 16, 2009 6:43 AM EST up reply actions
it seems so subjective, and boxers like Winky get penalised for not having perhaps the prettiest style…that and crowd reactions seem to trump scoring on the actual technical criteria pretty often.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
idk personally i’d like to say i’d give him credit, but i don’t. i’m assuming this is in response to what i said about Manny/DLH vs mayweather. i scored the first few to DLH because he was doing just that. he jabbed money may onto the ropes and unleashed combos while mayweather just stood there for a minute, and landing a laser accurate shot. to me that’s not going to win you rounds. as the fight wore on oscar stopped doing that and mayweather was landing more shots, so mayweather obv won. however, i tend to support “positive” fighting more.
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 15, 2009 6:15 PM EST reply actions
just stood there blocking for a minute, and landed* a laser accurate shot.
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 15, 2009 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
As always...it depends
I wish there was a simple answer to this but it really depends. Two situations.
#1. The defensive fighter blocks all the shots, but does so in a very simple fashion (think Arthur Abraham) with a simple high guard. No ducking, weaving, redirections, simply using the arms and gloves to absorb punishment. The amount of boxing skill is not all that high in order to block all of those shots. And will obviously lose in the ring generalship category.
#2. The defensive fighter makes the other guy miss 10 shots in a row, but he makes the other guy off-balance and then lands a shot. Since the defensive fighter is making the guy miss by either ducking, weaving, xor redirection (yeah i just used xor what about it) he is making the other guy open up and taking advantage of it. The defensive fighter in a strange sense is dictating the action and therefore the ring generalship should go to him.
In situation #1 I would normally give round to the aggressor whereas situation #2 goes to the defensive fighter. The issue usually is deciding which of these situations is actually happening when you are watching it.
I more or less couldn’t disagree more about Arthur Abraham. Joshua Clottey does pretty much the same thing. Winky Wright did the same stuff, too. It’s not like Winky’s all bobbin’ and weavin’ out there. And that could easily be considered “ring generalship,” as they’re forcing the other guy to do what they apparently want him to do, which is throw, not land, probably get tired in the process, and then come back at them at the right time.
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
The problem I always have with this is that its hard for me to consider effectively not doing anything ring generalship. If you are going to block 30 punches simply and only land 3 punches, hard for me to give you that round. In the ‘who would I rather be’ argument, I’m not sure you want to be the blocker. See my issue is that the blocking does not directly set up the punching, therefore they will have to be both judged on their own merits. Basically those 3 hits better be some good punches, or else all of that blocking seems useless.
The strategy of trying to tire the other guy out should be made obsolete by science and trainers. I mean really there are a bunch of things you cannot teach, endurance isn’t one of them…
by Waldo Rastel on Nov 16, 2009 4:16 AM EST up reply actions
See my issue is that the blocking does not directly set up the punching, therefore they will have to be both judged on their own merits. Basically those 3 hits better be some good punches, or else all of that blocking seems useless.
But the blocking often does directly set up the punching. They look for patterns, look for tendencies, and thus look for the openings.
In the ‘who would I rather be’ argument
I never score rounds this way, at least not in active thought. Who would I rather be? I don’t know, the guy whose wife is hotter. The guy whose bank statement is better. The guy whose car is nicer. The guy who has less tassels on his trunks. The guy who didn’t have a hard time making weight.
Frankly, from what I can tell scoring live with everyone for a while, we all generally wind up roughly the same no matter our methods, though, so I’m not telling anyone how to score. If the blocking defensive style doesn’t appeal to you, hey, it doesn’t appeal to you. I enjoy it when it’s done well, and guys like Abraham, Clottey and Winky (at least in the past) have done it very, very well.
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2009 4:32 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Who would I rather be? I don’t know, the guy whose wife is hotter.
that kind of non-sense leads you straight to divorce-city my friend :p
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 16, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
How else do you think Froch won that fight? It certainly wasn’t in the ring…
by Waldo Rastel on Nov 17, 2009 1:18 AM EST up reply actions
i never score with the ‘who would I rather be’ criterion, but it is mentioned frequently and thought it at least deserved some consideration. Yeah I usually have an extremely similar card to yours, maybe a couple of starred swing rounds different, but thats to be expected. I’ll try to do live scoring from the Ward fight but the wifi will probably be extremely wonky.
by Waldo Rastel on Nov 17, 2009 1:21 AM EST up reply actions
I know some people like to talk about “controls” and whatnot, the same way that some baseball guys liek to talk about “saves.” But clean effective punching is the name of the game. As far as I’m concerned, whether you land 15 consecutive punches on my gloves or miss wildly while I bob and weave, you’ve done an equal amount of squat. Hey, why don’t you try a body shot, you ring wizard you? Throwing punches demonstrates aggression, but landing them demonstrates effective aggression.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
by jrok on Nov 16, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
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