The Sad Truth
by fremontfan1 on Nov 15, 2009 10:52 PM EST
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PrintWith Million buy ppv fights like Mayweather Marquez and probably Pacquiao Cotto, Boxing, a sport that many have labeled as dead, was enjoying a period of increased popularity and exposure. Unfortunately, I realize now this brief period may be over soon and the sport may possibly even enter the darkest hour in it's history.
You see, the big names are what is keeping the sport afloat at the moment, and the biggest draws, Money May and Manny are hopefully set for what could be the most lucrative bout of all time. But what happens after Mayweather Pacquiao? Pacquiao will likely retire and the same may go for Mayweather. Without it's two biggest stars, who can carry the sport and fuel ppv buys like Oscar De La Hoya did. There are a great deal of talented youngsters but no one that is a real hot commodity
so while Mayweather Pacquiao might be the biggest fight ever, will it be the last big fight for years?
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PPV has been cooled off massively this year, and I think if Manny or Floyd retire, that will continue. There have been three HBO PPV fights in 2009: Hatton-Pacquiao, Mayweather-Marquez, Cotto-Pacquiao. That’s it. The sport will simply have to build itself properly again, and make some new stars. I still think Andre Berto could be one of those guys, Deontay Wilder might become that sort of guy. There is really no shortage of candidates.
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
Juan Diaz >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kosher Krusher
:p
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 16, 2009 1:46 AM EST up reply actions
YYYYYYYUUUUUURRRRRRIIIIIIIII......
oh never mind
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 16, 2009 4:29 AM EST up reply actions
Goyum
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
these meshugganah goyim
have a lot of chutzpah kvetching about Yuri. Oy vey, the boychick is a mench for goodness sakes!
That looks like Chocolate-Orange-speak to me.....
Am I right?
Do I get a prize?
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
David Haye!?!?!
Imagine if he beat Wlad and then faced off against Vlad….
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I voted for Haye too. That would be massive in Britain and Germany. Even in America that would be by far the biggest heavyweight fight in a while.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 16, 2009 6:38 AM EST up reply actions
definitely
and if he could win the first one, the second would go off the chart with the build up and the story of big brother trying to avenge his little brother’s loss, and Haye running his mouth even more than usual, if thats possible….
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
he’s goign to get KO’d by ruiz, so no need for wishful thinking
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 16, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Care for a bet on that one Battle axe? I don’t drink the Haye Kool aid but I like him over Ruiz.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 16, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions
get me in for some of that action
Maybe wishful thinking with the Klits, but am confident with Ruiz…
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
if we set up some kind of e-money than yeah, but other than that i’d rather just put my foot in my mouth :p
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 16, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
As a man with a lot of time on his hands I might just be odd enough to actually set up a pay pal just for this bet!
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 16, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
yeah thats not gonna happen. i ain’t got no real dough to put up, hence my e-money request
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 16, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
haha
Ok I bet you 20 BLH Dollars that Haye beats Ruiz!
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 16, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions
yeah i just wont the british lottery so i’m due to make a few million pounds soon
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 16, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions
make it 100 BLH Dollars on you’re on
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 16, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
deal
double for calling the round ;)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I’m in on this too Battle Axe. Prepare to lose those dollars my friend!
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 17, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
James Kirkland....
If he gets his ass in the gym and gets his head right.
I’d take him over Pavlik in a year’s time, and anyone else at 154/160 within 18 months (including Paul Williams, my current P4P #3).
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Why extremely brief?
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
he’s a kamikaze brawler. those don’t last very long
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 16, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
two possibilities
1. Kamikaze brawler, like battle axe says. You start slipping at all with that style and it can send you crashing.
2. If he gets his life in order, you sadly have to wonder how long that will last. I hope it lasts forever. He’s so ferocious in the ring.
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 17, 2009 2:38 AM EST up reply actions
yep easily the worst non-injury/death related news this year. i’m sure a kirkland-angulo fight would have been made this year if he hadn’t messed up, and that would have been an all-time classic GUARANTEED
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Nov 17, 2009 2:52 AM EST up reply actions
Kirkland-Angulo was talked about but every time it was brought up the bigger writers like Rafael said there’s no way they’d do it this year because there’d be too much money potentially down the line. Then again that was before Angulo lost his “0.”
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 17, 2009 3:37 AM EST up reply actions
While Mayweather will tell you otherwise, he truly built his name off a mega-fight against Oscar De La Hoya.
As many casual fans about Pacquiao versus Marquez, Barrera or Morales and they will draw a blank. Pacquiao became a star to the casual fan because of his mega-fight against Oscar De La Hoya.
The main reason why the polite, dominant and educated Klitschkos remain in relative obscurity is because they don’t have their version of Mike Tyson, Frazier, Foreman, Hagler, or Holyfield. Sorry boxing will face the same problem that the NBA experience when Michael Jordan left. After Pacquiao vs Mayweather Jr. occurs, what’s really next. Please note, no one knows David Haye, so I don’t see how Haye versus any Klitschko will generate a huge PPV.
Check out my recent MMA drawings on my blog, drop a comment, or subscribe via RSS for updates http://www.scritchandscratch.com/blog/?tag=mma
no one knows David Haye, so I don’t see how Haye versus any Klitschko will generate a huge PPV.
No one in America may know David Haye. Everyone in Britian knows David Haye. Perhaps unfairly and certainly remarkably he is at least as big a name as Amir Khan here and his recent fight recieved mind boggling amounts of coverage.
He is an exciting, brash and showy fighter who will attract fans if marketed well an dif he fights the right oppostion before he moves onto a Klitschko. If he fights Arreloa and/or Chambers in America, and is strongly hyped there, he will be able to do big numbers. Big numbers for a Heavyweight that is.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 16, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
Amir Khan isn't fit to lace Haye's gloves.
Unfairly, remarkably; Haye as big a name as Amir Khan?
Are you well?
Khan has beaten up a load of pub fighters, lost to a one-dimensional slugger, and beaten the shadow of Marco Antonio Barrera (via a dodgy stoppage, due to timing), and the weakest champion anywhere between 135 and 147, in Kotelnik.
Haye unified the cruiserweight division! Haye beat Mormeck, who was the guy who beat the guy. Haye beat every really good fighter that he could, while stepping up in the meantime and dismantling a heavyweight who had only been beaten once, and KO’d him in the first round. After unifying the cruisers, Haye moved up and smacked around Monty Barrett, who while not being great, has accounted for a fair few fighters who weren’t what they were stacked up to be. Barrett has never been a bad fighter, and was a worthy challenge for a man making his permanent move up to the top division. After this fight, Haye fights for the WBA belt, IN ONLY HIS 3RD FIGHT AT THE WEIGHT.
As much as I disagree with a lot of the hype being thrown David Haye’s way, and actually didn’t think he did enough for the win against Valuev, in a dick-measuring competition between him and Amir Khan regarding resume, there is simply no comparison. Khan has done nothing, NOTHING, when considered against David Haye.
In fact, I’d go as far as to say that Haye’s win over Maccarinelli was better than the whole of Amir Khan’s career to date, and that wasn’t even Haye’s best win at cruiserweight, in fact it wasn’t even close…..
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Kotelnik wasn’t that weak. He beat Maidana. A fairer point would have been that he was just a perfect style matchup for Khan.
Compare him to the other champions in the range I mentioned.
If you can find one weaker than him, I’ll eat my own head. Since that was what I said, and it was accurate, what is “fair” is kind of irrelevant, unless you want to have my opinions for me.
I do ALSO agree that he was the perfect style matchup for Khan, but he was also the weakest champion between 135 and 147, which is a seperate and kind of unrelated point. The two aren’tmutually exclusive, but they aren’t the same thing, either.
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
You’re right. I got owned.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 17, 2009 10:49 AM EST up reply actions
If all you’re doing is taking a snapshot of 135-147 as of July 18, 2009, then you have a better case that Kotelnik was the weakest beltholder on that particular date (although even that is questionable, as Kotelnik and Urango are pretty close). But if you’re going to concede that Kotelnik wasn’t a bad beltholder in absolute as opposed to just relative terms, then mentioning him didn’t really support your overall argument about Khan. The way you framed it might have been technically accurate but it was misleading. If Khan beats a pretty good titlist, then that’s a good win regardless of whether other titlists are better.
Do you believe that Khan has done more than David Haye?
And as an aside, do you think that Khan would have definitely beaten Urango?
I think Urango had more of a shot against Khan than Kotelnik, I also think that Urango owns Kotelnik if they square off.
Khan’s resume vs Haye’s resume = not even a contest for me.
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
I got two
- Paulus Moses
- Vyecheslav Senchenko
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
And Kotelnik was way the hell better than 2/3 of the 140 pound titlists in the past 5 years
He’s miles ahead of guys like N’Dou, M’Baye and Rees.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I didn't say in the last 5 years.
What I said (without those lovely purple boxes, a trick I am yet to learn….) ;
“Khan has beaten up a load of pub fighters, lost to a one-dimensional slugger, and beaten the shadow of Marco Antonio Barrera (via a dodgy stoppage, due to timing), and the weakest champion anywhere between 135 and 147, in Kotelnik.”
He fought the weakest champion he could, in the weight range accessible to him. That was my point.
Haye, on the other hand, unified the cruiserweight division.
End.
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Haye, on the other hand, unified the cruiserweight division.
Well he didn’t unify it, but he won the lineal title, which was already held by someone. He beat the champ. Kotelnik was also not the weakest titlist between 135 and 147. There are some shit titlists in that range, and yes I think Kotelnik beats Urango, who is as one-dimensional as they get (fun, though).
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2009 4:14 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, I'm sorry.... he didn't win the IBF title.
WBA title
WBO title
WBC title
Lineal title
Still a fair enough list….
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Right, he didn’t win the IBF title, so he didn’t unify. :)
I also just don’t think “unifying titles” is much to get excited about anymore. Oh boy, two/three trinkets! Now we’ll see which one he’s stripped of first when he can’t fit their awful mandatory challenger into a realistic and worthwhile schedule for himself!
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
Well he didn’t unify it, but he won the lineal title
He Unified WBO and WBC didn’t he??
by Sweet science on Nov 20, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
That’s two of four
Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes
by Scott Christ on Nov 20, 2009 5:18 PM EST up reply actions
My point is that I don't think Kotelnik was the weakest champion
Overall, I’d say Holt was weaker than Kotelnik (although as a tall guy who can punch a little, he’s probably a tougher style matchup for Khan than Kotelnik). And Kotelnik is way the hell better than Paulus Moses.
Speaking of which, rumor has it that Marco Antonio Barrera may still be fighting, and that he’s trying to work out a deal to fight Moses for his title.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Warren wouldn't have had it any other way for Khan
Apart from Prescott, obviously – biggest shock to Warren’s system since M**sh popped him. Haye’s knowingly taken risks in his career, unlike Khan (through no fault of his own)
Unfairly, remarkably; Haye as big a name as Amir Khan?
Are you well?
Khan has beaten up a load of pub fighters, lost to a one-dimensional slugger, and beaten the shadow of Marco Antonio Barrera (via a dodgy stoppage, due to timing), and the weakest champion anywhere between 135 and 147, in Kotelnik.
Thing is mate, in England Khan is as bigger name as Haye. Haye has only just become a name, Khan has been a name ever since the olympics. A lot was said when he won the silver at the tender age of 17, where’s some of Haye’s best wins were on Setanta, which was a subscription channel which went bust. I agree that in the game, Haye is far better than Khan (not that khan doesn’t have potential) but whoose a bigger name, De La Hoya or Mayweather? Whoose the best Fighter out of the two of them??
by Sweet science on Nov 20, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
1. I'm English.
2. My issue wasn’t with the statement that Haye was as big a name as Khan, it was with the comment that this was somehow “remarkable” and “unfair”….. Why should it be unfair and remarkable that a two weight titleholder, and a guy who has put it on the line at every opportunity (Klitschko and Klitschko Inc. aside….), be as big a name as someone who has done nothing in comparison?
To be fair to the original poster, he saw the logic of my post immediately. Don’t you?
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Absolutely
I wasn’t really thinking when I posted to be honest!
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 22, 2009 6:08 AM EST up reply actions
It won't be one and done
call me crazy, but PacMan-Floyd is going to happen more than once. Maybe three times.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Nov 16, 2009 6:13 PM EST reply actions
thats what I was hoping abt Pac Cotto… No one wants to see a beating like that happen again though.
Hopefully Pac Mayweather will be the epic trilogy that Pac Cotto could have been…
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Nov 16, 2009 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
Well...
if Pac-Man wins so easily so as to make a rematch moot, at least we’ll be able to say that we saw one of the three or four greatest boxers to ever live. A convincing win over PBF would really put him in that discussion, IMO.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Nov 16, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
A convincing win over Floyd puts him #1, in my opinion.
With a resume like he has, over the range of weight divisions his career has spanned, culminating in a destruction of another guy who could be inserted into that conversation (not by me, but some would argue it), would pretty much cement his spot, for me.
I also don’t claim to be the Oracle of Boxing, either, and appreciate my opinion is about as worthwhile in the grander scheme of things as a wisp of smoke on a windy day.
I think right now, if Pacquaio retired tomorrow, he would be arguable top 5. If he beats Floyd in the same manner he did Cotto, he goes right to the top.
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
It just seems nuts
to even consider putting him ahead of Ali, Robinson, Louis, etc. But objectively, his resume really probably does justify it. We’re all lucky to be watching this.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Nov 17, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions
No way in hell
Sugar Ray was 85-0 with 69 KOs in the amateurs, back when that was legit, then went on to compile a ridiculous 128-1-2 record to start out as a pro, with the only loss being to Jake LaMotta, which he went on to avenge several times. This man dominated the welterweight division and necessitated the creation of p4p rankings. Oh and 15 months out of his prime he spent in the military, so his record could have easily been much much better. Robinson will almost certainly always be the boxer that all others will be measured by.
by Waldo Rastel on Nov 17, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions
And if he’d stayed at Super-Feather (if he could have) and defended the title 20 times, nobody would be mentioning all-time P4P.
I fail to see or comprehend the relevance of that comment?
Seriously, and this is a genuine question not a dig; what is your point?
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
I don't know about that
Guys who are ATGs are their weights and clear out strong divisions tend to be ranked pretty high. Hagler, Monzon, Ali, etc. etc. Heck, even Duran probably would have been top 20 – 25 without jumping weights.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I still don't get what that has to do with the post you replied to?
I say Manny is near the topof the tree now, in my opinion, and that a trouncing of Floydwould put him at the top of the tree.
Why is it even relevant what would have happened “if”? He didn’t stay at his original weight, and he has (to put it elegantly and poignantly) beat the shit out of 3 future Hall of Fame fighters.
Since it was his amazing, unprecedented and largely unexpected meteoric rise through the weights, and his destruction of all that lay before him, that showed us exactly HOW good he was, even when fighting naturally bigger stronger men, I suppose you could be right in what you say, but I don’t even get why you’d say it?
“Manny Pacquiao would have been a great fighter had he been brought up on the moon.” is just as relevant to the reality of what we now know as the point you made. Yes, I am partially judging him on the fact that he jumped weight classes and smacked around some of my favourite fighters (and Oscar De La Hoya…), but the most prescient point is that he DID jump those divisions, he DID batter those guys, and he HAS proven he is that good by rising to and meeting head on every single challenge, which he would not have been able to do at 126…..
Trust me, I’ve wanted him to fail every step of the way, for different reasons. I loved Barrera, and the beatings Manny dished out to him really HURT. I hated him for that, and the way he beat the career out of Erik Morales too. I wanted him to lose, to fail, to NOT BE THIS DAMN GOOD…. I lost shitloads of money on Oscar, not quite so much on Hatton, and a fair chunk on Cotto; I wanted him to lose all those fights, desperately. I am NOT a Manny Pacquiao fan, per se. However, to deny how good the guy is would be both ignorant and stupid, and I hope I am neither of those.
So, to sum up. If Manny Pacquaio had have stayed at 126, he might not be getting the world wide acclaim that goes with jumping divisions and beating the shit out of really good fighters.
And if I had wheels, I’d be a wagon.
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
I thought it was a neutral observation; certainly not a counterpoint to your post. As far as relevance is concerned, you said a Manny victory over PBF, plus his resume over the range of weight divisions puts him contention for the ATP4P #1 spot, and I’m not disagreeing. I wonder, however, how he would have been judged had he remained at a lower weight (but I’m not that fussed about it, really).
.
And anyway, the whole P4P argument is one big, fat, shiny “what-if?”, but it doesn’t stop us getting excited about it, does it?
Unless your name is Doug Fischer in which case you complain about how annoyed you are at the Ring’s p4p ranking while frequently reminding us that p4p doesn’t matter at all and is silly.
So much about that man’s mailbag annoys me. It’s like his writing quality and balanced observation just leave him when he is answering those people!
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 23, 2009 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
(GGGGRRRRRR!)
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 23, 2009 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
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