Fight Talks: Bute-Green, Marquez-Katsidis, Bradley-Ortiz
by Scott Christ on Dec 14, 2009 6:39 AM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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Rick Reeno at BoxingScene.com has news on three potential fights that are being discussed, at least in the media.
First: Lucian Bute v. Allan Green
Lou DiBella is reportedly looking into matching Green, his fighter, with IBF super middleweight titlist Bute, who has become one of the fastest-rising stars in boxing. The first choice for Bute and HBO is still Kelly Pavlik, but matchmaker/agent Don Majeski says word is Pavlik will stay at middleweight:
"We have had some talks for a fight with Allan Green. We would really like to fight Kelly Pavlik but we've heard that he might stay at middleweight so who knows. We have to see what happens with Pavlik," Majeski told BoxingScene.
Green was heavily rumored to be the alternate fighter of first choice should anyone in the Super Six World Boxing Classic drop out of the competition. Jermain Taylor is the only fighter that appears would even be considering such a move, and JT seems set on staying in, even with the loss of DiBella as his promoter. So Green, who killed some time by fighting and beating Tarvis Simms in October, is in need of a fight. He can't just sit around and wait, although sitting and waiting has sort of been his career modus operandi thus far.
To be blunt, it's kind of time for Allan Green to crap or get off the pot. He's a talented guy, but he's been beating the same level fighters for too long. At 30, there's not likely to be any major improvement that will any better prepare him for the top level guys at 168 pounds. Green already once turned down a fight with Kelly Pavlik and has basically been banned from ESPN2 telecasts. He's made lots of shoddy career decisions. He's no longer at the point where he can just keep waiting. He's either going to do it or not, and with Bute being the only major titlist besides Robert Stieglitz not competing in the Super Six, this is the absolute best fight he's going to get.
Of course, it could not happen and totally not be his fault at all. He might well want it and be turned down if Bute and his team come up with something they like better, or if Pavlik surprises some people and moves up to fight him.
Second: Juan Manuel Marquez v. Michael Katsidis
The WBO has been threatening that Marquez needs to fight Katsidis next or be stripped of their lightweight title, and they're just saying it some more. Marquez is unlikely to fight Katsidis as there's probably a better money fight out there for him, either with Ricky Hatton or somebody else. Katsidis currently holds the sanctioning body's interim title, and if Marquez were to pass on a fight with him, he'd be upgraded to full titleholder.
Third: Timothy Bradley v. Victor Ortiz
In another one I think probably won't happen, Gary Shaw says he'll reach out to Golden Boy about pitting Victor Ortiz against Timothy Bradley:
"We want Amir Kahn, Maidana, Ortiz. Let's see how brave they are by offering up Ortiz. I might just offer Ortiz a title shot. Bradley would knock him out," Shaw told BoxingScene.com.
I don't know if Bradley would knock him out, but after watching Ortiz's fight with Antonio Diaz on tape yesterday, boy is that not a fight I'd put him in right now. Golden Boy probably still have high hopes for Ortiz, who was to be their star of the future. He's got a surfer dude sort of personality and to his credit, he's a really exciting fighter... which we've seen against lesser competition. Bradley is simply on another level and has rapidly improved. Ortiz looked a little bit gun-shy against Diaz on Saturday, but he may have shaken that just by getting back in there and fighting again.
I think the jury's still out on Victor, but if I'm at Golden Boy, there's no way in hell I put him in there with Bradley right now, unless I've decided that Victor isn't going to pan out, and that it's a really early "now or never" call. He's simply not ready for Bradley.
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Katsidis Vs Marquez
Katsidis Vs Marquez would be a war. Not sure if Marquez wants another war. I think Marquez gives up the WBO title & Kat becomes full champion by early next year. Katsidis should try & bring a World Title fight down here in Australia. He hasn’t fought down here in like 5 yrs.
by AUSSIE VLADIMIR on Dec 14, 2009 7:18 AM EST reply actions
It would really depend on how his weight gain and loss would affect him
IMO, the Marquez who beat Diaz and Casamayor beats Katsidis pretty easily in an entertaining fight. But guys have been known to hit a wall when they put on muscle and lose it again.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I agree entirely, and I frankly don’t like any of these matchups because they are all pretty one-sided. Bute needs higher level competition than Allan Green mostly because he is better than that. Katsidis sets up nicely for JMM and wouldn’t be surprised if this fight looked like the back half of JMM-Diaz. Bradley-Ortiz is simply comical at this point. Ortiz looked terrible and Bradley looked like a world beater.
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 14, 2009 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Green on his best night might be able to keep up with Bute. Maybe even beat him. Not that I would bet money on it, but it’s possible. Anyway, Bute needs to keep busy until the end of the Super Six and that’s as good a fight as any.
Wasting the prime of his career by ‘keeping busy’ seems like a misguided decision. I feel he needs to get out of that division just to cement his standing and get better fights. Preferably moving up to 175.
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 14, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
He wouldn’t jump in and fight a Pascal or Dawson or even Cloud straight away, so maybe a Green fight would be better for him money/profile wise?!
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Depending on weight
I think he can jump in with Cloud right away. He has good defense and obviously has some power, and frankly its a matchup I would be much more excited about than Bute-Green.
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 14, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Allan Green is a bigger star than Tavoris Cloud.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by Scott Christ on Dec 14, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions
But I know the outcome of the Bute-Green fight. Bute KO’s Green. Bute has too much power and too much speed for Green and its going to be like a one-sided Miranda fight. Bute-Cloud I don’t know about. Cloud has got a nice amount of power and I like his speed, it could be an interesting bout, but one that Bute should win.
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 14, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions
Guys don’t just move up in weight for the kicks usually, and Cloud probably offers less money and less recognition than Allan Green does. I’d rather see Bute fight Sakio Bika again than either of them, honestly, but it won’t happen.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by Scott Christ on Dec 14, 2009 6:22 PM EST up reply actions
So basically there is Bika Green and Steglitz for him to fight, before the knockout round of the Super Six, assuming that one of the people who gets knocked out is going to be decent competition.
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 14, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
Green, Bika, the Stieglitz-Miranda winner, Eddy Gutknecht, the Brinkley-Stevens winner, Adonis Stevenson. There’s also the Pavlik possibility. Richard Schaefer mentioned something about Hopkins going down and winning a title at 168, which he never did, though that’s likely just idle chatter.
I know it’s not the most exciting batch of opponents and I’d be happy to see him go up to 175, too, but I don’t think he’s in any rush and he draws a lot of money without HBO, if that’s the way it has to be for some fight. Bute-Stevenson would probably do a really good house, and while Stevenson is just 13-0 and really hasn’t earned it, he’s also 32 and I’d see that as sort of a “might as well” fight for both.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by Scott Christ on Dec 14, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
He could think of it as an investment too. By waiting for the Super Six to end, he sets up a potentially huge payoff down the road. If he moves up to 175, who knows what will happen? He might get slightly bigger fights now, but there won’t be a payoff later. Plus maybe he won’t adjust well to the weight. Maybe he won’t be able to move back down to 168 again once he gets accustomed to 175.
I'd be shocked if he doesn't fight Stevenson or Demers in the next year or two
For those who don’t know, Stevenson is Montreal-based as well, as is Sebastian Demers, who’s won two in a row since moving up to SMW.
I don’t think he’s ducking guys, but I won’t accuse of him not taking an easy one now and then. Sadly, Brinkley-Stevens is an eliminator. I’m just hoping it’s an eliminator for the #2 spot, which is vacant. I have no interest in seeing Bute fight either of those guys.
Not only don’t I see any reason for Bute to move to 175, but I think he’d do poorly there with the size difference. He doesn’t have particularly long arms, and I think that would hurt him at higher weights.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
looked on boxrec yesterday and he did fight at 171-174 at the start of his career, so maybe LHW is a more natural size for him? (despite his arms?)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
More natural
But he wouldn’t be in as good of shape. I suppose he’d have more of a quickness advantage there, although there aren’t many quick 168 pounders either at the moment.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
not bad matchmaking
bute vs green would be terribly one sided. i for one would like to see it so everyone will stop talking about green once and for all.
bradley would just school and end up knocked ortiz out in about 7 rounds.
jmm is as close to shot as they come. he probably has one good fight left in him. i dont think he’ll be fighting katsidis. maybe a miguel vasquez type guy.
@mikefareri on twitter.
I agree that Bradley would walk all over Ortiz
I also reckon he could beat up Khan without too much difficulty.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 14, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Bradley would come far too early for both....
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
he would walk over khan too. hes a guy who would gladly go to england and do it too.
@mikefareri on twitter.
by sonofapsycho on Dec 14, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
Marquez is definitely past it
But I don’t think he’s ‘shot’. He wasn’t having problems pulling the trigger against Mayweather, he just couldn’t find his target.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
i said “close to shot.”
:)
@mikefareri on twitter.
by sonofapsycho on Dec 14, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions
bute’s camp said they wanted to fight green b4 the andrade rematch, but greens team priced themselves out. still that fight and the steglitz/miranda winner r the only 2 that really make sense till the super 6 concludes. i dont see the palik fight coming off personally but that would be a great style matchup/marquee fight for bute …
They also had close to a signed fight with Green for his first title defense
And Green pulled out to fight a nobody on ESPN, and then no-showed the ESPN fight. Bute ended up fighting Joppy instead, which was about as good of an opponent as he could get on 4 weeks notice.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
yeesh, I had no idea Allan Green was 30.
USE THE SOFTWARE. Actions-> Rec/Flag. Reply to comments with the reply button. Rec good fanposts/fanshots so the crud gets pushed down.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 14, 2009 12:14 PM EST reply actions
I'm for Bradley-Ortiz
Just not next. Maybe at the end of 10. Ortiz was very passive at first, but when he started letting his hands go, he showed flashes of good things. I think he needs another fight or 2 against a solid fighter or 2 to get his swag back
by cardscott5 on Dec 14, 2009 1:36 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Bradley- Marquez
Bradley- Ortiz … Ortiz would probably get stopped in the 5th round, to much pressure from the “Lil Bald Headed Assassin”. Bradley- Marquez would be a banger. Ortiz is slightly displaying signs of a pre " Cotto " shell shocked image. But a win is a win though. I’m just saying…
If you always thought what you thought, then you wouldn't think what you knew.
Well no, first of all “everyone on here” doesn’t, and second, what’s your basis for thinking Green’s so much better? Bute may only have a couple of good fights, but that’s a couple more than Green.
"everyone on here" is a blanket statement, try not being so sensitive
Allan Greens win over Travis simms is far more impressive than the Andrade wins, Before Bute and Andrade had their first fight they were not even on the radar, If Green has only faced B level, then Bute has only fought C level fighters. Andrade is not on the same level as Miranda, and some people felt Bute lost that first fight
lol i never thought id hear the words “greens win over simms was impressive.” wow. he was absolutely dreadful in the fight.
as for andrade and miranda, they are about as equally limited fighters as you can get at 160-168.
and i really dont know of anyone who had andrade actually winning on points in the first bute fight. i do know of everyone who saw green get ktfo by miranda though.
@mikefareri on twitter.
by sonofapsycho on Dec 14, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Green wasnt knocked out by miranda!
and i didnt say the fight with Tarvis Simms was impressive, i said beating Simms is more impressive than beating andrade, Andrade is not comparable to Miranda in my view, his only other name fight he got whitewashed by Kessler, and Bute destroyed him in the second fight
oh yea the bell saved his life in that fight.
you really need work on your adjectives. impressive is not a word to use with allen green. especially in the simms fight a fight. especially didn’t win impressively.
bute beating andrade in the 2nd fight speaks more of butes improvments than it does andrade.
@mikefareri on twitter.
by sonofapsycho on Dec 14, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
Honestly
I think Andrade’s chin got a bit dented since the Kessler fight as well.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Meh
IMO, Bute has five wins better than Green’s best win (Andrade x2, Bika, Berrio, Zuniga). I guess they could be arguable on the basis that Simms had never fought anyone worth squat before and thus who knows how good he is, but beating an undertrained 38-year old middleweight who took the fight on two weeks notice isn’t that impressive to me. And despite all of this, Simms is probably still his best win.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Why wouldn't he be annoyed by a blanket statement?
They are indiscriminate, lack objectivity and are innacurate.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 14, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions
Firstly my point was against blanket statements in general which you acknowledge having made, not against your point in itself.
Secondly to say that everyone on here is doing something implies the whole site as opposed to this single page of comments.
Thirdly who cares?
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 14, 2009 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
Tarvis Simms might have beaten Green had that fight not been in Oklahoma. It was a lot closer than the official score cards and frankly Green looked horrible out there. Green hasn’t only faced B-level, he’s only faced C-level with a couple of odd exceptions, and Bute has faced and beaten much better competition. Andrade was top ten in the division both times Bute beat him, Bute also beat Sakio Bika who remains top five-ish at 168, and Berrio and Zuniga are just as good an opponent as Edison Miranda, really. Bute has proven a lot more than Green has.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by Scott Christ on Dec 14, 2009 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
and also
Andrade is not on the same level as Miranda
Yes he is.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by Scott Christ on Dec 14, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Andrade would kick the shit out of Miranda, IMO
But maybe that’s just me. It would be fun as hell, but I think Andrade would eventually bulldoze him.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Doesn’t Bute have bigger fish to fry than Green? He (Bute) should fight either 1) guys with belts or 2) absolutely top guys that can make him MONEY. I don’t know if that includes Green. I’m not a Katsidis big fan because he takes so much punishment that you can predict a punch drunk future, I’m sad to say. I’d like to see him take a day job.
Not really, unfortunately
The other “fish” are tied up with the super six, mostly. He’s already beaten Bika. Stieglitz is tied up with Miranda at the moment (although I’d love to see him unify with the winner). But it’s mostly just a lot of B to B- level fighters available for him to fight at the moment.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Not the world's most reliable source
But per Greg Leon, Schaffer has told Hopkins he can get paid more for a Bute fight in Canada than a Green fight in Australia…
http://www.boxingtalk.com/pag/article.php?aid=18865
Hops also seems to be taking the whole Danny Green thing seriously. He’s heading over to Australia in the new year to check the place out.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Three mismatches
Brute waxes Green
Bradley breaks down and stops Ortiz
JJM’s style is all wrong for Katsidis. He counters him to submission..
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 15, 2009 11:32 PM EST reply actions
Gotta Agree
Marquez will beat up Katsidis who lacks the ring IQ to overcome his brilliant countering.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 16, 2009 5:33 AM EST up reply actions
About time you agreed with me!!!
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 16, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
Hehe
Argument births understanding. Or something like that.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 17, 2009 5:47 AM EST up reply actions
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