What was your favorite Closet Classic?
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 18, 2009 6:40 PM EST
78 comments
How about you
?
Quite simply, when an exceptionally great fight is not widley televised or professionally taped and the details are thereafter passed on by word of mouth, the fight can gain closet classic and even cult status (or both such as the case of Lee Roy Murphy vs. Chisanda Mutti in 1985 in Monoco). Other favorites of mine were Danny Nardico vs. Charley Norkus (1954), Hector Carrasquilla vs. Soo Hwan Hong (1977), Leland Hardy vs. Ike Padilla (1989) and Tommy Morrison-Joe Hipp (1992)
Foreman-Lyle, Castillo-Corrales, Moorer-Cooper, Somsak Sithchatchawal vs.Mahyar Monshipour and Durelle-Moore were pure classics in the true sense, but they were seen in plain sight. Closet classics stand the test of time; they are talked about decades after they happened. For example, Aficionados continue to talk about Monroe Brooks vs. BruceCurry as if it happened yesterday.
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Too many folks missed this one too..
George Chuvalo vs ernie Terelle,,,,1965. Chuvalo earned that fight. Should have been a Champion..Officialy.. Cult Classice indeed
Everyone was watcing Ali…as ..even then..the Titles were split for business interests.
Good one indeed.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 18, 2009 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
The older fighters worked harder because they had to fight to earn. Aside from the heavyweights where size is a variable, the older fighters were just as tough or tougher than today’s but perhaps not as technically skilled.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 18, 2009 7:20 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Succinct and accurate, I think. Rec’d.
by boxingstudent on Dec 19, 2009 12:44 AM EST up reply actions
Yesterday and Today
Ted, I can’t help but feel that the sheer volume of titles available today has led to the deteroriation of boxing skills and to the lack of dedication on the fighters part. If ya’ got some skills, damn you could theoretically fight for 4-5 different world title belts in a 2-5 yr. span without getting really commited and really serious about your chosen profession. Case in point, H/W Corrie Sanders, he had size, speed, and he could whack,..what could’a been. But its a condition that exists in all weight classes,..IMHO, thats what separates the true champions from the pretenders. But with all the different trinkets available now, well you can be average and still be considered a “Champ”. Peace!!
Totally agree. There’s been barely a true World champion at any weight for years.
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 18, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
Good points, mates and hard to argue with. I have a generational bias that gets in my way.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
Generational bias towards?
Fighters for older eras or this era? If towards the former, totally understood, but not necessarily agreeable. Just saying. =)
Closet favorite? Anything with “Bazooka” Limon. Or possibly when Edwin Rosario KTFO Livingston Bramble who had looked unbeatable at that point.
Rosario-Bramble a good one indeed.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
New closet classics for me to watch
Not that they are new fights, byt they are new to me. Other than Morrison v Hipp, which I’ve seen, I have not heard of any of the fights in the first paragraph. Good for me cause I can watch em now!!! This is one big reason I read these great articles.
Ones I like
I don’t know if they are closet, but they are classic:
Bobby Chacon vs. Boza Edwards in 83’. One of the greatest fights I’ve seen live on TV.
Danny Lopez, pretty much anything prior to Sanchez fights.
Danny Bonaduci vs Barry Williams AKA Danny Partridge vs. Greg Brady. This was that celebrity boxing show. It was a total mismatch, Williams proved to have a really good chin, but he had no business being in there.
Danny Bonaducci vs Donny Osmond
I witnessed Danny Bonaducci’s brutal destruction of Barry Williams, who gave it a go but wasn’t a fighter. I remember David Cassidy (who is like Danny’s Big Brother) saying that Danny was a mean little dude and was going to kill Barry. And it almost happened. But the fight I’ve always heard about but haven’t had the pleasure of viewing is Bonaducci versus none other than Donny Osmond. I heard this was a highly-competitive and pretty vicious contest. Danny won a close decision and Donny, who fought well, ended up with a broken nose. Now THAT I’d like to see.
Dan Adams
Technical Question
I’d like to have the posts listed latest post @ the top, right after the article. Mine is set up so the 1st post follows the article. Anybody know if I can change the format?
Thanks,
ST
It featured a doble knockdown, and Murphy just beat the count while Chisandra was counted out. The was the “Real Rocky.”
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
Ted, remembered my bloody password eventually. Ted, mi amigo, would you count Arguello / Pryor as a closet classic? btw, i cant believe that other site shafted Supreme Court the way they did the other day
NO. IT was an all-time classic. Pryor-Johnson mught have been a closet classic.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:26 AM EST up reply actions
How about also Nigel Benn vs Logan or the G Man. Bowe / golota? Calzaghe / Mitchell? Hagler / Mugabi? Hamed / Kevin Kelly? Holy / Qawi. Actually another dead cert, one of my FAV fights of all time……..Duran vs Moore !!!! Thompson / Eubank. toney / Jirov. to name but a few……
Benn vs GMAN was a clssic; Benn vs Logan was a closet classic.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:26 AM EST up reply actions
From my buddy Bob Benoit, a former boxer and retired Mass State Trooper and now referee
Ted the Bull, here is a classic you never heard of but one that I saw. In the lete sixties I think I saw Manny Freitas fight Tommy Daragon in Providence, RI. What a fight. Freitas was the ‘opponent’ and was knocked down legitimally, as I recall, about 3 times and then counted out. The crowd booed and raised Hell as they thought this was another ‘stiff’. The manager of Dragon, after hearing the crowd, sent his fighter forward to fight again after he had already been declared a winner. Tommy Dragon was knocked cold by Freitas in the next round. You had to be there. It was the biggest comeback win I ever saw.
\
Keep punching always,
Bob Benoit
37-8
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:25 AM EST reply actions
That's one for the books!
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Brit Dust Up
Reno=Samuels was another great closet classic that took place in England this past year.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 11:11 AM EST reply actions
Yep . Stterfeild vs. Lee oma
Satterfield vs. Rex Layne
Satterfield vs. Tommy Gomez
Satterfield vs. Johnny Summerlin
Satterfield vs. Warnell Lester
Sattrefield vs. Garvin Sawyer
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 3:24 PM EST reply actions
The recognized authority on Closet Classics is Lee Groves, one of my favorite writers. Jim Amato and I have also embraced the concept.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 3:25 PM EST reply actions
Nobody hardly recall's???????
How come nobody ever mentions the ’88 WBC 140 lb. title fight between Roger Mayweather and Harold Brazier???? It was part of the undercard of “Hearns-Barkley.”
MR.BILL
Bill Petersen
MR.BILL
Raleigh, N.C.
"Mugabi vs. James Green."
John Mugabi and James Green fought a thriller on NBC in 1984 or so, but nobody ever mentions that fight anymore for whatever reason………. Green almost upset Mugabi……
MR.BILL
Bill Petersen
MR.BILL
Raleigh, N.C.
Exeelnt call. Hard Rock almost had him, but I believe he was stopped on cuts. That one broke The Beats aura of invincibility.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions
Roger was in more than one. He could fight and became known as “The Mexacan Assasin” for his ability to wax Mexican oponents.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 5:00 PM EST up reply actions
I can't get too old
But the one that was almost unseen in the states, and which was probably one of the best fights of the decade, was Jamie Moore vs. Matthew Macklin.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
One of my favorites along with Katsidis-Earl. Great fights.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
Hell Yeah !!
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Castillo-Correleas would have to rate as an ATG pure clssic IMO, but Ward-Green was a true closet clssic and better than Ward-Butoon which was a F.O.T.Y. Also, Ward-Neary might be another.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
Ward/Neary - mos def!
Love that fight.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
YEP. Wars sent him to Brit Dreamland after Near gave him some hell early on.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 29, 2009 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
GDay Fellas, Berbick v Snipes from back in the 80s . Barry Michaels v Jin- Shik Choi in Darwin Australia October 85 . Incredible fight! Barry Michaels vs Al " Earthquake " Carter was another unbelievable fight Harding v Andries 1 in Vegas was a beauty. Corrales v Robero Garcia when Diego won his first title was a beauty as well.
All great ones. JC40.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
Michael/Earthquake Carter - nice one !
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
I missed "Thomas-Coetzee" in '83 or '84.... DAMMIT!
I stepped out of the house on the afternoon of the national televised fight between Pinklon Thomas and Gerrie Coetzee, but I caught the result later…. It was a draw…. I heard it was a goodie for TV……… I also have never seen a replay of this on ESPN Classics or Superbouts…….. Argh!!
MR.BILL
Bill Petersen
MR.BILL
Raleigh, N.C.
I just found my "Cooney-Brown" tape from '84...
I thought I had lost this fight, but I just uncovered “Cooney vs. Phil Brown” from Alaska…. It was shown on CBS with Gil Clancy, Tim Ryan and SRL calling the action…… Brown fought Cooney like a wussy…….. Cooney TKO 4 Brown……… Not a classic fight, but kool Cooney footage……..
MR.BILL
Bill Petersen
MR.BILL
Raleigh, N.C.
Brown was way in over his head.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:30 PM EST up reply actions
Guys like Michael Gomez, Ward, Katsidis, are closet classic types waiting to happen. Garza-Meza was a thriller diller as well.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 19, 2009 9:35 PM EST reply actions
Garza was over-hyped....
I remember Jaime Garza being talked about big time in the early 80s while I was in high school….. His record was padded with lotsa’ KO’s against anybody and everybody…. As it turns out, he was managed good early on enroute to winning the title….. But after getting KTFO by Juan Meza, a strange thing happened to Garza, he became soft, erratic and kayoable…..
Its bizarre, but it happens every now and then that just one wicked loss a guy suffers can destroy a fighter to where he never fully recovers or gets his career back on track…..
MR.BILL
Bill Petersen
MR.BILL
Raleigh, N.C.
Yes
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 20, 2009 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
Bramble was a disappointment....
I bought into Livy Bramble early on and all his bullcrap of being the top 135 pounder in the world by 1986…. However, after getting thumbed and KTFO in round 2 by Eddie Rosario on HBO, Livy Bramble never really got back on track to reclaim his lost title……. And by 1990, Bramble was a steppingstone losing more than winning…….. Man, he finished up ugly……..
Frank Fletcher was another hype guy from NBC TV in the early 80s….. But, after dropping a decision to Willie Scypion in 1983, Frank Fletcher became a punching bag…. He was KTFO by Juan Roldan to cap off the year, and by 1985, Frank Fletcher was brought in to get parked by John Mugabi…. I think that was it for Franklin Fletcher……
Hell, John Mugabi basically became a bum after being stopped by “Hagler and Duane Thomas” in 1986…. Mugabi’s ’89 title win over Rene Jacqout was a joke…. Next up, Terry Norris smokes “The Beast” in ONE round in ’90……. Gerald McClellan parked Mugabi in ONE round in 1991……… SAD!!
I just get pissed when hyped fighters fall apart over night……… Cheers…..
MR.BILL
Bill Petersen
MR.BILL
Raleigh, N.C.
I’d agree except for Mugabi. He finished with a solid record and actually won a World Title. He did become “chinny” however and Norris sent him to “Beats Dreamland.” When he fought Fletcher, it was “Beast” vs “Animal.” Frigging zoo in there.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 20, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
I have the tape from '85 / NBC Sports World.
I have a copy of “Mugabi-Fletcher” on file……. It was entertaining for free TV in ‘85, but I didn’t like how Frank Fletcher came in looking like the opponent merely looking to walk the plank into Jaws’ water….. Fletcher was there to try and get his payday, but you could see the eye of the tiger was gone from Fletcher…….
MR.BILL
Bill Petersen
MR.BILL
Raleigh, N.C.
Same for Mugabi.
I have Mugabi’s sorry ass showing against McClellan in 1991…… Mugabi got iced inside round 1 by a series of shots….. Sure, McClellan was a bomber, but Mugabi showed nothing at all…… At a tender age of 31, Mugabi was bald, slow, chinny, stale like an old fart and KO’d….. Mugabi came back in the late 90s for a few MEANINGLESS fights before fully going away…… A sad mo-fo………. Hagler & Thomas" ruined Mugabi……… And, back in 1989, I myself at age 22 and in condition at 165 pounds, would’ve ripped into the 154 pound Frenchman ‘Rene Jacquot’ quick and early……. Nuff said……… Point was, that WBC title Mugabi won was bogus / paper in ’89…….
MR.BILL
Bill Petersen
MR.BILL
Raleigh, N.C.
OK,OK!
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 20, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, with John LocICERO.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 21, 2009 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
EXCELLENT STUFF
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 21, 2009 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
G'Day Fellas
Lightning Lonnie Smith vs Bill Costello, stumbled across this one on Aussie TV back in the day – classic. Mark Kaylor vs Errol Christie, British MW grudge match. Tszyu vs Vince Phillips, brutal. Hearns vs Kinchen. Lester Ellis vs Barry Michael, all-Aus world title fight, blood and guts 15 rounder -classic. Terry Norris vs Troy Waters 3 round war. Hearns vs Roldan.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Frank The Tank Ropis
Frank Ropis v Barry Michael , Goaty . I remember that one as a kid mate . As Ted said Michael was an ideal candidate for those sort of fights.
Good stuff JC.
Frank’s fights with Brian Janssen and Russell Sands were up there too hey mate. Ellis vs Atilla Fogas was another good ’un.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
It doesn’t compare with a lot of these fights, but last year on a Friday Night Fights undercard there was a terrific little scrap I must’ve watched 20 times between Ruslan Provodnikov and Brian Gordon.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
Is it on YOUTUBE MATE?
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 22, 2009 9:43 AM EST up reply actions
Nope. It’s a shame. Just a good little six-round action fight. Gordon was outgunned badly talent-wise, but was as brave an “opponent” as you find on FNF shows anymore.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by Scott Christ on Dec 23, 2009 3:59 AM EST up reply actions
I’ll never forget that one. It was an “isnpiring” performance by Lonnie.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 22, 2009 9:42 AM EST reply actions
Yes!
Lonnie’s performance certainly inspired me. I was in awe of it!
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
It’s in my book!
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 23, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Mark Kaylor vs Errol Christie ,is the essence of what I am talking about here
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 22, 2009 9:43 AM EST reply actions
Nice.
I think Kaylor’s a fitness instructor in Florida these days. Always came in wearing the claret and blue – West Ham colours.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
I don’t dare reply to you, mate, because the post-counter might object and God lknows I don’t want to hurt her feelings.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 23, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Ted, the Brits had some good fighters in the 80’s and early nineties, stuff to be proud of. Not so much now but yes, Kaylor / Christie was a prime example and if i remember right, the had a fight before the fight ? in the street or something? Holla out to the ‘man’ counting the posts on here. Dude, let it go, bad for your health.
That “man” is one tough guy (ggrrrrrrrr) behind the keyboard as long as he is about 200 miles from my 6’2" reach, but God forbid I ever run into him at a fight or music concert or something. The Brits had guys like Billy Scherwere, Dave Boy Green, Alan Minter and then later the great Eubank, Benn, Watson and Thompson. Those guys came to fight and left nothing in the ring. Some of my favorite fighters andf fights are Brit in nature.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 22, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
For certian he ws. He was a chill-or-be-chilled guy who could end a fight at any time with either hand.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 22, 2009 9:22 PM EST reply actions
I know what your saying matey. Moving on from the 5ft midget. This Floyd / Pacquiao thing has really got me thinking and it is not good.
say more es
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 23, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
A recent shout, but one that will be mentioned for a long time in conversations such as this;
Jamie Moore vs Ryan Rhodes. Action all the way, knockdowns, the widely written-off underdog pulling off the win…..
Great fight. :)
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Yes, Brit dust up are the very best.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 25, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions
How about these..
Hilmer Kenty vs Sean O’Grady.
Cornelius Boza Edwards vs Bobby Chacon (as a previous poster pointed out)
Edwin Valero vs then-champion Edwin Mosquera.
And let us never forget any and all fights featuring the dearly-departed Jesse James Hughes.
Dan Adams
Jesse James Hughes was a walking closet classic and I featured him in my first book. His Fight with Adrian Stone was incredible. Boza-Chacon was a pure classic while Valero-Mosquera was a greta choice. That one was blood and showed just how tough “El
Inca” can be.Hilmer Kenty vs Sean O’Gradywas an inspiring perfomance by Sean and his best fight ever.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 25, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
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