Paul Williams tops Sergio Martinez in a stone cold classic
by SC on Dec 5, 2009 11:51 PM EST
in Post-Fight Analysis
52 comments
Before the main event fight went live, HBO showed a video package to recap what has been a tremendous year for boxing. Max Kellerman narrated great fights, great upsets, controversies, and sadly, those fighters we lost early this year.
One was Vernon Forrest, and main event fighter Sergio Martinez fought tonight in his honor. Martinez surely did Forrest proud with his performance tonight.
Another was Arturo Gatti, and tonight at the Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City, Martinez and Paul Williams did the memory of Gatti proud in his signature building.
In what was expected to be a tactical affair, all out savagery, brutality and boxing war broke out between Williams and Martinez, thrilling one of boxing's best cities, and reminding us once again that you just never know when you might get a fight for the vaults.
Williams wound up winning the fight by majority decision. We'll get to that part later. For now, let's talk about the fight.
Martinez went down with bad balance in the first round, touched more than punched by Williams. Just before the bell signaled to end the opening frame, Martinez nailed Williams with a right hook that sent the taller fight tumbling to the canvas. And he was hurt.
For two more rounds, Martinez's precision counter punching was clinical. Williams absorbed right hook upon right hook, looking like a fighter being outsmarted and outfought.
But then Williams made an adjustment and turned the tide of the fight. After seven rounds, I had Williams ahead by one point (having given Martinez a 10-9 in the first).
Down the stretch, both were exhausted, and both had their moments. They continued to battle their hearts out, showing unexpected grit, fire and resolve. It looked at times as if a stiff breeze could have blown Martinez over, and Williams seemed to be fighting purely on instinct.
It was a fight that made you marvel at what these athletes do to themselves and each other. Both pushed on when it seemed nothing was left, and they did so for just about half the fight, truthfully. Williams appeared badly shaken early in the fight, and didn't seem too clear-headed in his post-fight comments. He could have been out there fighting through a hand injury or possibly even a mild concussion. Whatever it was, he left nothing in reserves. Neither did Martinez.
Everything you could want out of a fight was in this one. It was dramatic, it turned on dimes. Just when you thought you had it figured out, the other guy would come roaring back into the fight.
It was a very serious contender for Fight of the Year, and I stand and cheer for both Paul Williams and Sergio Martinez.
Worst Scorecard of 2009
About those scores. One card was 114-114, one was 115-113 for Williams, and the third, from judge Pierre Benoist, was 119-110 for Williams.
This made Gale Van Hoy's 118-110 Diaz card from Diaz-Malignaggi I look defensible. It is absolutely ridiculous that Benoist thinks Martinez won just one round of this fight. He should never judge another fight again, not on the world title level, and not in a National Guard Armory. This was such a piss poor excuse for a qualified judge that words cannot properly describe it. There's no "mistake," there's no "you could have seen it that way, maybe." There's none of that. The man is not qualified based on this one fight alone.
If you took a dog, and you let it walk through chocolate, so that it had chocolate on its paws, and then whichever piece of construction paper the dog got the most paw prints on indicated which fighter won that round, the dog would have scored it closer to correct than Pierre Benoist did. It is utterly ridiculous and should be dealt with immediately.
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Great fan -friendly fight by two guys who gave their all. I had it 115-113 for Williams but it could have gone 115-113 for Martinez.. 119-110 is grim and continues a pattern of grim scoring over recent fights such as in Funeka and Arunutis.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 5, 2009 11:55 PM EST reply actions
Be respectful to other posters, please.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by SC on Dec 6, 2009 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
I say it the way I see it!
A yo , I’m not desrecpeting, just talking boxing,what? you want to talk about the LIONS ?
By our standards, leading off with “bull shit !!” is being disrespectful. You can disagree, but you don’t have to be combative about it.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by SC on Dec 6, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
cool
Glad to have you at BLH. (And I had Martinez winning too.)
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by SC on Dec 6, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions
Hey can you count?
Paul won rd 5-8 clear cut. That is 4 rds and the 1st round was and even or should have went to Paul for the controling most of the round. 2-4 clear for Martinez and there were 4r ds that were even and really did not have a clear winner. Paul was agressive Martinez more accurate puncher. It was an even fight I had Paul 115-114 with rd one 10-10 round.
Best "fight " since Diego vs Jaun
by DL3 on Dec 7, 2009 4:05 AM EST up reply actions
amazing final paragraph. only good thing about that card is that it now guarantees a rematch.
rematch at 154 or “160” again?
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Dec 5, 2009 11:59 PM EST reply actions
Williams can only fight Martinez at 160.
I would love to see a rematch of this fight, but the biggest thing I took away from this battle is that Williams can’t survive at 160 fighting the way he fights. Martinez hit Williams way too cleanly for most of the fight, and would have finished him early if he had any power. If that was Williams’ gameplan for Pavlik, it would have been over within three rounds. His biggest problem, in my opinion, is that he throws too many punches that have no bad intent behind them, leaving him open for shots that have, can, and will hurt him. I can’t see him beating Pavlik, Abraham (if he comes back to 160 after the super six), and maybe even Sturm. I would even give a puncher like Miranda a chance against Williams if that is how he is going to continue to fight.
im not saying williams is stupid or anything but the way pw fought for 3 rounds is how he ALWAYS fights. immediately goes in and throws a million punches per round. obv martinez is a lot faster than pavlik, but pavlik is an orthodox dude who’s best punch is widely known as the “southpaw killer”. i still think pw will get knocked silly by pavlik
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Dec 6, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
I think after watching the way Williams leaves himself open, that could very well happen. Whether Pavlik is quick enough both physically and mentally to land the shot is another story, but it’s sometimes easy to forget that Kelly Pavlik is also a pretty goddamn good fighter.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by SC on Dec 6, 2009 12:11 AM EST up reply actions
thats what i was getting at by saying martinez is faster than pavlik. pw will probably see pavlik’s punches coming, but he still doesn’t have much of a defense
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Dec 6, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
i think pavlic will beat paul williams. for the simple fact
he has much more power and paul wiliams as you stated sc he leaves himself open to big shots and pavlic has the power to put him out. I also dont think paul can hurt pavlic just doest have power to put him on his back.
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
Abraham’s never going back to 160. He was really having trouble making the weight.
I’m a huge Paul Williams fan, but Sergio Martinez tonight was slick enough, fast enough, and good enough to exploit the holes he leaves, and he did a good job of it. Guys like Pavlik with their power could well crush him, I agree. Not because they’re better boxers, really, but just because it has the potential to be such a fatal flaw. His volume punching works very well with some guys, but tonight Martinez slowed him down by rattling his cage, and Martinez is no puncher.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by SC on Dec 6, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
if you have power, you just have to say “fuck it i’m gonna trade”. thats probs the best way to do it, but PW does have good movement so slower dudes won’t have the guaranteed success
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Dec 6, 2009 12:16 AM EST up reply actions
If Martinez had world class power at 154 or 160… It would have been over within 3 rounds…
Martinez has a great chin… it kinda makes you look at the Margarito fight with more doubts…
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
I agree that Pavlik is a damn good fighter.
The problem I see with Williams at 160 is that, not only does he get hit cleanly pretty easily, but he wasn’t a power puncher when he was at 147. He could dominate a good 160 lb. fighter for three or four rounds without truly hurting them, only to get caught clean a couple of times and end up getting knocked out.
I’ve always been a fan of Paul William’s raw physical size, but I’ve never been a big fan of his style. He seems to be more worried about throwing as many punches as possible instead of throwing punches that will hurt the guy standing in front of him. I don’t think that’s going to work against a 160 pounder who has a little power behind his punch.
Could have gone either way. I would have preferred a draw, which I think was the correct score, but you can’t argue with a close win for either warrior- and they were both Warriors. It was a Tremendous fight, a credit to the sport, marred as is too often the case by what appears to be corrupt or inept judging. When will this nonsense stop?
Martinez showed tonight that he could probably make it at 160.
His speed and elusive skills would cause trouble, and it seems he rolls with punches really well. He probably will be stuck fighting nobodies at 154 again unless he can dominate Williams in a rematch and develop a big fan base that will make it financially worthwhile for a big-name fighter to agree to a match with him.
i have no doubt that he can easily outbox pavlik, but he can be lured into a war obv and he could end up on his back against the savior of youngstown
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Dec 6, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
I could see that.
But I’m not willing to assume that Martinez will fight every fight from now on like he fought Williams. In the Cintron fight, he didn’t mix it up that much and instead picked his spots and picked Cintron apart. I think the reason he brawled with Williams was because he saw Williams has less power than he does (which is very unusual for Sergio) and decided he could stand in there and trade punches with him. If he would fight smart against Pavlik, he could probably win a rather easy decision against him. I just think it would be a really bad matchup for Pavlik
the way i see it is that cintron didn’t bring the fight to martinez. sergio is a counterpuncher by nature, and cintron merely stood back and slowly prodded his way forward in an extremely dull fight. pavlik is no cintron, and he’ll throw down but obv pavlik has the strength of 60 men in each hand so you might have a point
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Dec 6, 2009 1:25 AM EST up reply actions
How was the crowd for the fight.
Was it big or small. Rowdy or just sitting there. I wonder bc Williams might have found himself a home in AC with this fight. They really love the brawler style there. I forgot to tivo the fight but after reading the round by round I can not wait until it replays at 9 am.
Also why are people saying Sergio has no power? He knocked out Cintron with 1 punch, though Cintron talkede himself back into the fight somehow. I think his usual style, in and out picking apart a fighter, does not usually lend it self to knock outs. But when he sits on his punches he has some power.
you may be exaggerating the knocked out with one punch. yes he clearly hurt cintron, yes cintron took a knee because of aforementioned pain, yes cintron was a moron who decided to wait until 9.9 to get up; but no it wasn’t exactly the “this guy has power!” type of punch
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Dec 6, 2009 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
A little bit of exagerating but
Cintron was saying he was hit so hard there is no way it was a punch, he tried to say it was a head butt but replays clearly show a punch. I still think he has some power if he just sits on his punches. Maybe not 1 punch power put decent power non the less.
People need to remember there is more then one type of power and just bc some one can not end it in 1 punch does not mean he has no power. That was my point but I see where you are coming from.
Packed in tight upstairs at Boardwalk Hall, and a very responsive crowd. Excellent atmosphere. You should’ve heard the collective gasp when the 119-110 card was read.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by SC on Dec 6, 2009 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
what a great fight big props to both fighters, they left it all in the ring. As for who i thought won, i thought Martinez won landing the cleaner, harder shots, more often, Pwill outworked him in the middle rounds but Martinez coming back strong in the championship rounds and edging him out.During the post fight comments if you had not watched the fight and judging by Pwill’s body language he looked and sounded like the loser and was lucky to escape with the victory, Martinez seems down to do it again, uh………. Paul not so much. I hope it happens again what a way to cap of the year whoa, lets hope Juan and Paulie try to play anything you can do i can do better.
I love both fighters… they gave it all and put it all out there for all 12 rounds.
There was no crappy belt on the line. They basically told the entire world… there is a very good reason why people avoid us…
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
just got back from ac
Impressive turnout as the weather was horrible down there all night. The crowd was very passionate and sounded about 80-20 Williams at the onset. By the end everyone knew what they had seen and gave both fighters their due. Most people around me thought Paul got the win before it was announced. The 119-110 card was lambasted when it was announced and on the way out people talked about how horrible that scorecard was.
Paul adjusting to Martinez’s counter hook around the midpoint and Martinez getting worn down a bit before he then adjusted to Paul’s adjustment and started throwing straight left was the story of the fight in my mind. (But that may change when I go watch it on my dvr.)
minto’s heart and the heavy bombs at the end of that fight made the crowd as wild as it got all night. I found it odd nobody from minto’s corner was up on the apron looking closely at the fight to possibly stop it before the ref did.
Pavlik v. Williams
Not sure if the Williams Pavlik fight is as much of a mismatch as we would think. It seems that Williams has problems with the the southpaws, especially the slick ones like Sergio, that he might not have with Pavlik. I doubt that Pavlik can land the volume of punches that Martinez did, and they won’t land with as much power. I still like Williams in that fight but I can see why people would favor Pavlik after tonight’s fight.
FOTY
Instinctively stood up at multiple points in this fight, most because it was incredibly awesome. Good to see the possibility of a rematch because this fight could be possibly be better if both fighters have some time to seriously gameplan for the other fighter. Instant Classic! Liked it better than JMM v Diaz, mostly because there was more back and forth. Williams – Martinez – Williams – Martinez -Williams!
walso same here mate i watched the whole fight stood up in the living room, that has to be up there, if not # 1 fight of the year, trading that way like they did several times, gotta hand it to williams, lampley/manny right on th emoney with their assessment that he seemed to want it more, was mentally tougher in always coming forward, but saying that at the end martinez was just jumping in after each break and swinging away, phenomanal fight mate. hats off to both guys – martinez’s advisor/manager was right to shout out ‘its a travesty that scorecard’ max shudda at least agreed with him before telling him to shut the fack up, right?? cheers/cloughie
Stayed awake till 3am
At which point I convinced myself, “it’ll probably be a boring fight”, and then went to bed. Bugger.
by FCF on Dec 6, 2009 7:55 AM EST up reply actions
"Styles makes fights"
Those who extrapollate Paul Williams performance against Martinez to a certain easy win for K. Pavlik are so…NAIVE. This is why:
i) “Styles make fights”: Martinez is a so-called Slick-boxer
ii) He is a Southpaw
iii) He is highly underrrated, probably because he comes from Argentina
iv) P.W. had little time adjust his preparation camp after the Pavlik debacle
v) K. Pavlik, is a robot-boxer, even worst than Kessler. Any good boxer will beat him any time any day.
vi) Martinez would beat Pavlik as well
My understanding is that Pavlik’s fan would like to fing a bit of confort by entertaining this idea.
My prediction about the rematch is an easy win for P. W.. Martinez surprised him. He was able to adjust and come back. It will be just as Dawson-Jonshon II
I sort of get the same feeling about a rematch. Paul made a great in-fight adjustment. I mean he might as well have been ordering up those right hooks early in the fight. It was a new wrinkle, showed he can change on the fly now in a fight he’s losing.
Still, Pavlik’s straight right is his bread and butter punch, and that is the punch that gives most southpaws the biggest problems. And Pavlik has very legitimate power. If Kelly can get that shot in on Paul early in a fight, it could spell very big trouble. Paul’s habit of leaning in a bit too far and sometimes just leaving his head there to be bashed isn’t exactly what you want with a guy like Pavlik, who I think can ONLY beat Paul by stopping him, but I have no doubt he can stop him.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by SC on Dec 6, 2009 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
I think it is a very telling sign that Martinez as guy who has power to be respected but is no KO monster could rock Williams.
Williams as a freak as he maybe will not be able to take Pavliks best shot for more than a round or two.
If you were to put Martinez in the ring with Pavlik I think he would have more success. He has more lateral mobility and Pavlik just boxes in straight lines and if you take away his double jab and right… he has nothing. Literally nothing else in his repretour or however it is spelled.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Rematch
Thats a Great Boxing Fight, I thought Sergio martinez WON that fight. I take my hat off to Paul Williams, never gave up and kept throwing. I had never hear PW say I have to see what my Promoters say. When he was asked about a Rematch. Next to the Marquez vs Jdiaz that is Fight of The Year!!! I Agreewith you SC on the Judge who gave PW 119 to 110, I have SM Winning the first Four Rounds, had WilliamsHurt a few times to the point where I thought hewas going to Knock Williams Down again, PW is a Tough SOB.
I thought the crowd sucked for most of the fight. I was making more noise by myself from my couch. I saw a few people walking out in the 11th and 12th rounds. Good fight though.
Is Julie Lederman Harold’s wife? I thought Martinez won 7 rounds.
i'm not sure
But I think she’s no relation. You can wiki her to find out.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 6, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
Julie is Harold’s daughter. Talk about “daddy’s little girl” — following your father into boxing judging? Awesome.
Bad Left Hook
"If bulls**t was poetry, Ray 'Boom Boom' Mancini's name would be Shakespeare." -- Dennis Rappaport
by SC on Dec 6, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Agree
I thought Martinez WON that fight 115 to 113. How can you walk around and missany round on such an Exciting Fight!!!
One was Vernon Forrest, and main event fighter Sergio Martinez fought tonight in his honor. Martinez surely did Forrest proud with his performance tonight.
Another was Arturo Gatti, and tonight at the Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City, Martinez and Paul Williams did the memory of Gatti proud in his signature building.
Well said SC…. props…
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
think Julie is Harold's daughter?
she looked half way cute, cluthching her little scorecard n the ring apron. i’d almost….no no no, don’t go there.
Floyd vs Paul?
I would love to see Paul vs Floyd. I think Paul would dominate and finally shut pretty boring Floyd up.
Paul vs Marinez 2
PW LOST that fight, that y when he was asked if he wanted a Rematch he said I will se what Mgr. and Promoter Say. I havev Never seen that from him he Calls out Everyone. 115 to 113 Martinez
Great, Great Fight
And a very good article about it! I had Martinez by 115-113; I watched twice to try and understand how Harold Lederman could give the 11th to PW—can’t see it. One poster mentioned Williams making adjustments: How about Martinez making that straight left to the head a factor as the hook faltered? I wouldn’t take any more from this fight in deciding who would win Williams/Pavlik than I would take from the Hopkins win over Kelly. Williams is obviously not the spoiler-boxer (so good at taking away his opponents “strengths”) that Hopkins is, and Pavlik is not anyway nearly as fast, tricky, or multi-dimensional as Martinez. IMO, if Williams can take Kelly’s right(or add some wrinkles to his game), he wins; if not, he loses.
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