If you were Freddie Roach...
by Drunken cutman on Dec 7, 2009 2:37 AM EST
82 comments
FanPost frontpaged by SC
I recently had a very enjoyable conversation on this site about what tactics we thought Mayweather should/is likely to use against Pacquiao. After mulling this over quite a lot I came to a far more challenging question; how should Pacquiao approach Mayweather. Getting past Mayweather's stellar defense is a very difficult thing for any fighter to do and I don't think even the great Pacquiao offense can do it enough but if you were Freddie Roach, and you had to think up the game plan for beating Floyd, what would you do?
Working out a full game plan is certainly beyond me but I have had some thoughts.
Footwork
To plod against Mayweather is to lose to Mayweather. If Pacquiao doesn't use good footwork then Mayweather will be able to set the distance exactly how he wants, enabling him to hit, tie up or run away whenever he likes and as much as he likes. Pacquiao needs to keep his feet fast at all times if he wants to get close to Mayweather and land some shots.
Outwork Him
As far as I can tell the best way to come close to beating Mayweather is to be seen to be outworking him by a significant amount. It almost worked for Castillo and part of what made De La Hoya succesful in the early part of his fight with Mayweather was that he was doing more and had Floyd on the ropes. Manny needs to be throwing big amounts of punches at the right moments to look more impressive and more dangerous than his opponent.
Floyd Will Not Knock Him Out
I would bet my farm and granny on this. Unless Pacquiao gets stupidly reckless and undisciplined, and gets caught by a perfect punch he isn't going down. His chin is great at 147 and Mayweather doesn't hit as hard as Cotto.
Body
Floyd's going to go there, so should Manny. It's uncommon for Floyd to get hit much at all and even less common for him to take a great deal of body shots. Pacquiao is no soft hitter and if he can get to Floyd effectively I reckon the body is the best place to aim those punches. This is simply because it will obvously tire Mayweather and face him with an adversity which he hasn't experienced for a long time, if ever.
These really are just some points which I think Pacquiao would do well to pay at least a little attention to but I'm no more than a guy on the internet so, what do I know?
What I'm most interested in are your ideas for how Pacman can overcome one of the greatest defensive fighters of all time. Let's hear them.
Photo by Ethan Miller / Getty Images
FanPosts are user-driven content written by members of Bad Left Hook, and are generally not the work of our editors or staff members. FanPosts do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Bad Left Hook.
2 recs |
82 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
The problem with Floyd
If you come in with one gameplan, you are going to lose. Floyd has seen a multitude of gameplans against him and only a couple of them have really done any damage. What I am expecting from Freddie is going to be like the ODLH gameplan on crack. Pressure, Pressure, Pressure. Punches in bunches with a majority of them going to the body. Pac needs to slow down Floyd or else its game over. Pac needs to move while punching. I’ve noticed that he sets and then throws punches from odd angles. That won’t work now. Speed Speed Speed needs to be the gameplan and how they train or else Floyd will dance around all his punches. Power hurts but speed kills.
Like waldo’s ideas. Manny will need to use speed and keep moving, I think to his right (mayweathers left) so his straight left will come down the pipe. Floyd is great at shoulder rolling but a straight punch from the left he might turn to his left to roll it off were Manny can land his right over his shoulder, but Floyd’s lead left hook is fast and accurate.
Keep his punches coming from different angles and move in and out. He has shown that he can keep distance when he has an opponent on the ropes so Mayweather cant grab or smother him. Oscar came right in, Hatton came right in, if he can keep that distance and use his speed and fire from were Floyd isnt used to he can atleat out work him.
I think Pac will be the one coming forwards and being almost hessitant at times but he will need to do the work when the chance comes up.
"Good, so it can’t go any deeper." - Arturo Gatti after being told he was cut to the bone
Agree
I think Manny will be able to land that right over the top of Floyd’s shoulder while slipping the left hook.
Manny’s KO punch will be a lag 45 left while moving right after sticking that overhand right.
by manosdepiedra on Dec 7, 2009 6:41 AM EST up reply actions
Can Manny hit Floyd? If Floyd slows down to fight, Manny will win it. That is all for now. Cool board. Drmullen now Droid!
by AndroidMullen on Dec 7, 2009 3:11 AM EST via mobile reply actions
Pressure
Pacman needs to just out work him and keep the fight at a fast pace. Floyd never throws a lot of punches. He counters and picks his shots. Much like a young Roy Jones, or even a Benard Hopkins. And the key to beating these types of styles is pressure and power. Find away to land puches or at least don’t let him counter and best case you get him to exchange or you out work him and get a points from the judges.
Interesting strategies...
What I usually do is rewatch fights. It’s sort of my personal build up for the fight. I’ve been watching a few Pac and Mayweather fights and I think this fight isn’t going to be as close as people think it is going to be. I do agree it could go either way but there are major points of concern for both camps.
From Pacquiao and Roach’s perspective I saw this fight going down like this:
Pac comes out of his corner like a race horse, keeps pressure on Mayweather up against the ropes. This is what DLH did in what was by many considered a DLH win.
Difference is Pac is going to be throwing a lot more and throwing at angles. I think angles are the biggest key here not speed or power. I still don’t think Pac has much if any power at 147 I really don’t. What I think he is doing to a lot of these guys is picking apart their defense by hitting them from angles they find it difficult to defend from. Add that to a very high workrate and a high portion of his punches are connecting in any given round.
Considering the first half of the Judah fight and Castillo fight there isn’t any reason Pac can’t win this. In fact if anything he should win it.
It’s not all gravy for Pac though. From what I understand there will be no weight or glove concessions made at all for the smaller man plus the timing of the fight doesn’t work in his favour either.
I don’t think Mayweather can particularly pick off or KO Pac in any decisive way but I think he can give him trouble in the later rounds. Even though this is only Mayweathers second fight back from his long break the man has an incredible stamina and will utilise that against Pac.
Pac has only fought twice at 147 and will struggle to keep pace in the later rounds. He looked gassed in the Cotto fight in the later rounds. Now imagine the same fight with Pac and Mayweather. Mayweather won’t have nothing left in the tank so yeah he won’t be slugging it out with Pac for the first few rounds but he will pick him off when he has nothing left in the tank.
I see this fight as a fight of two halves with one half going to one side by some margin and then vice versa. It will probably come down to a decision and considering Pac is on the verge of retirement boxing doesn’t benefit from him getting the decision so he won’t get it.
Overall I think Mayweather needs another tune up fight because that lay off has to have had some effect and I think Pacquiao needs a more appropriate date for this fight.
I think the results may be quite different if the date were different. Seems like they cobbled this together at the last minute because they saw the money potential.
For Pacquiao and Freddie Roach:
We know Pacman can throw a high volume of punches from different angles. We all know Mayweather Jr.‘s vaunted defensive stance and footwork. If Manny can not find any opening past Floyd’s defense. Hurt the body, round by round. Something is going to give, he won’t be able to protect himself behind a bruised high shoulder for 12 straight rounds. It may sound weird but it works well in kick boxing. Just keep punching the same spot.
Work Mayweather Jr. inside the clinch. I’m sure Manny can work a fighter from the outside but do everything possible to frustrate Floyd.
Check out my recent MMA drawings on my blog, drop a comment, or subscribe via RSS for updates http://www.scritchandscratch.com/blog/?tag=mma
It’s Popeye and Blutus. It says “The Greatest” on the back. I don’t know where you can find one online. I bought one at a mom and pop store in LA.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Dec 7, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
Pressure BUT
with some excellent Defense.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
Hmmm.. I don't know SC
I will have to take issue with you on Floyd’s power. He clocked Hatton with a check left hook. Think about it.
Sorry I missed the conversation about what it would take for Floyd to beat Pac. Just to add my two cent quickly. I like the uppercut late from Floyd because Pac reaches and will often have his head down.
I will disagree with many on this thread who mention pressure from Pac. That’s what Floyd wants. Freddie Roach said that Manny had problems with JMM because he was a strong counter puncher. Countering is Floyd’s game. Floyd would pick him off all night. I think the key for Manny is the angles. He has to keep his lateral movement while shooting punches from all different angles. If he comes in like he did with Cotto, he’s gonna get caught with that uppercut. His best opportunity will come with that right hook of his when Floyd reaches for his patented body jab. Lastly, he has to be able to adjust mid-fight. As Bruce Lee said “Be water my friend”.
Every fighter has a game plan until he get's punched in the mouth.
-Mike
Sc didn't write this I did
says so at the top…
I would argue that Manny has a better chin than Hatton and that he will not leave himself as open. I know Pacquiao is prone to getting hit while attacking but not nearly as much as Hatton, whose defensive game can be accurately described as Not Applicable.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 7, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Also Mayweather couldn't KO Judah
who has a pretty rubbish chin.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 7, 2009 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
great fanpost dude...
rec’d. Really interesting reading the different views on it.
I don’t have the technical knowledge to hang too deep into this kind of piece, but I think it could just as easily be phrased ‘how will FMM beat Pac?’ Stylistically they both bring something completely different in style and quality to what the other has ever faced, I think. My simplistic view is that Pac will outwork him, he’ll be too quick for him and hustle him out of his gameplan, and I don’t think there’s going to be any plan B for FMM.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Yeah gettin hit in the nuts will do that
ba-dump-dump
But seriously though, Floyd definitely can KO Pac if he gets careless. For his sake, I hope he doesn’t come into the fight thinking what you just posted.
Every fighter has a game plan until he get's punched in the mouth.
-Mike
I believe that low blow was in the 9th round
and I also think that a rewatch of that fight shows the blow having no effect on Floyd after he recovers, except that it makes him more aggressive. I quote him in his corner after the round inolving the low blow “I want to knock him out”.
Pac’s chin looked awesome against Cotto, eating some massive shots. I’m not one of thsoe people who think Mayweather doesn’t have much power but I think it’s fair to say that Cotto hits bigger than he does.
To clarify, these are just my thoughts on what I think Pacquiao should do, not a game plan. I do say that he won’t get knocked down unless he gets reckless and caught perfectly.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 7, 2009 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
But here's the thing
Don’t go making the man invincible. You saw what JMM was able to do to Pac. Why can’t Floyd do it and then some. Don’t just look at one fight cause we all know that styles make fights. Look at the body of work. I swear man, some of you guys are going to make this dude a god before the fight. He is a man that can get KO’d like anyone else. He has been beat before and he can be beat again. No question.
Every fighter has a game plan until he get's punched in the mouth.
-Mike
I swear man, some of you guys are going to make this dude a god before the fight
Err…I have already said several times on this site that I’m picking Mayweather. I have been a Pacquiao skeptic many times. I’ve also said is his chin looked great agianst Cotto which is pretty hard to deny!
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 8, 2009 4:59 AM EST up reply actions
I think I've backed against Manny more than I've backed for him.
I definitely thought Barrera and Morales were going to tear him up, and kept getting proven wrong (mind you, I loved Barrera… at least after the shock of the Hamed fight had worn off…..)
I definitely thought Marquez would beat him the second time.
I thought Oscar would beat him into dust. I still find it hard to fathom how Oscar managed to lose to a man coming up two weight classes… like someone said in the ‘Upsets’ thread, even i fI could go back in time, I would find it hard to change my pick, simply because it seems even now illogical that Oscar won.
I backed Hatton to win. I just didn’t think Manny could do what he did to Oscar to a live dog, which Hatton most certainly was. It only took him about 4 and a half minutes to prove me wrong…..
I still haven’t really expressed my thoughts on Manny/Cotto. I thought Cotto would win. I just don’t see how logically, Cotto, a GREAT fighter, a term I don’t use much, but one he deserves fully; could get beaten up like that. After the Cotto/Margarito fight, a friend of mine phoned me and said nothing for about a minute. When he eventually found his voice, he simply said, “Fucking spiders. I think I just saw someone stop Miguel Cotto.” He was genuinely speechless. I felt the same way, to an extent. I just didn’t think I’d ever see Cotto beaten up like that. The same went for the Manny fight. Logically, Cotto should have destroyed Manny. No question. So we can assume that boxing does not follow logic. Not even a little bit. Boxing is a force unto itself, a rule unto itself, a thing outside of reason in a lot of ways.
Right now, I think Floyd is a certainty to beat Manny. Logic tells me Manny can’t do to him what he did before to other opponents. The problem is, I’ve felt exactly this way before Manny’s last few fights, and he did exactly what it seemed reasonable to assume he couldn’t. The absurd quality of the ease with which he has despatched three HoF fighters is… staggering, really. It means we can look back now and say “Well, in retrospect, it’s easy to see why/how Manny beat those guys.” Will we be saying the same thing after Manny/Floyd?
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Very well put
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 10, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Why thank you, sir. :)
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Judah also gave him hell in the early rounds. If Pac was fast enough to dodge that lunging right hook, I’d say he’d have a Judah’s chance of making Floyd look silly. Sadly, Pac can’t slip like Zab. But it’ll probably be easier for Pac to land a lead left counter than it was for Zab to get off that left uppercut counter.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Dec 7, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
Can't remember
Was it a left uppercut by Zab that got PBF to touch canvas with his glove in that fight?
I think it was a left hook since Floyd was falling to his left. I’d probably have to go into my library and watch it again. Zab could’ve gotten some good counters in the early rounds if he wasn’t so focused on that left uppercut counter. My point was just that Manny can pull that counter off (and probably will), but he’s not the kind of boxer that can slip Floyd, and that seemed to be the last time I truly saw Floyd frustrated. Money didn’t like it when he wasn’t fast enough to catch someone with that lunging right hook
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Dec 7, 2009 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
Realistically I don't think judah gave him hell
He won a few of the early rounds but Mayweather looked uncomfortable not troubled and like he was feeling out not struggling. Well to me it looked that way anyway but maybe I’m biased because I strongly dislike Zab.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 7, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
Well, Zab was never going to be good down the stretch, but Mayweather was missing that lunging hook early and getting countered over his right hand. Getting countered and not being able to get off anything more than a jab IS hell for Floyd Mayweather
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Dec 7, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions
The Floyd KO of Hatton was more accumulated punishment than raw punching power. And on a tangent, the off the turnbuckle KD was the funniest knockdown I’ve ever seen in my life.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Dec 7, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just glad this fight is happening.
I honestly can’t pick a winner, aside from the fans of boxing and boxing as a sport in this one. Pac is going to have to bring his A game for this fight, Mayweather is a slick on the defense and not being hit is often his priority than to being hit. I think you apply pressure in the truckloads, but smart pressure. Thinking ahead planning your shots and forcing Mayweather to move the way you want him to move if your Manny. I’m really just excited about this fight period, and I’m starting to wonder if Mayweather knew long ago he intended to fight Manny and just played elusive to the media in order for public demand to go up and therefore increasing overall revenue, but in the end, who cares? I’m excited for this fight, I’m pulling for Pac, but if Mayweather wins I won’t be upset because he finally had the nuts to beat the best man out there and maybe he’ll go on to fight the Berto/Mosley winner. I was talking to SC Friday about this and especially consider Berto if he wins, he’s young, fast, and just beat Shane Mosley but that’s too far ahead. Lets get ready for the biggest fight in decades in March.
Floyd is the better Boxer
There is no strategy or blueprint for Mayweather and that is the problem. You have to remember that both of theses fighter are fast with the hand speed. At times PacMan can be very aggressive and that type of pressure overwhelms fighters and that is how he is able to start punching opponents from all those angles. Mayweather will welcome that aggression and use that against Pacman. We have to admit that Pacman takes a lot of punches in order to deliver his and this is where he will become a victim of his own talent. Bottom line this fight will come come down to timing and accuracy. When both fighter knocked out Hatton it was off of a counter punch and side step so I know Freddie Roach isn’t going to send Manny in with that pressure tactic approach. Mayweather in 12 rounds Unanimous Decision. He’s going to out box Manny.
I think
you pretty much laid out what Manny has to—if he can—do. Given that his footwork is better than Castillo’s, that he creates and punches from a number of angles, and that he’s a LOT faster than either Castillo or old ODLH (plus the fact that Manny is on a streak, and that means something), I don’t see why he can’t win this fight. Floyd, IMO, is capable of hurting Manny with a counter-shot, is the best boxer Manny has faced, and is the bigger man. Couldn’t ask for much more than a truly great defensive fighter vs. an virtual machine on offense. I think that both fighters have superb stamina, but Manny DID look a bit winded late against the larger Cotto, and Floyd has always been able to fight within himself: Does Floyd’s size, strength (underrated) reign in the “who wears who out” contest, or does Manny take Floyd out of comfortable rhythms and tire him a little?
The Castillo blueprint
What Castillo did so brilliantly was control the center of the ring with a high punch output, forcing Mayweather to go outside. ODLH could control the center as well, with his jab rather than a high output, but lacked the legs at his advanced age to then cut PBF’s movement off and force him against the ropes or into a corner, where serious points can be scored. Castillo of course had the legs to do so, and made the fight close to the point that many thought he won (I think last I watched the fight I gave it to PBF by a point, just my opinion but that’s neither here nor there)
For Pacman, he’s best to follow the Castillo blueprint rather than the ODLH, as he lacks the physical attributes of a junior middleweight De La Hoya, or even a 5’9’’, 74’’ reach Mosley (who also, like Hoya did, could probably dominate PBF with a jab). Not to say he has a bad jab, he just lacks the size and reach to do so IMHO. His willingness to throw punches in bunches, however, would give PBF’s D an issue, as i think the whole Philly Shell deal tends to be obsolete once someone throws three or more punches, especially with someone who possesses the hand speed that Pacman has.
IF Pacman can drive PBF to the ropes, he can hurt him, and it is of course worth noting that it was two southpaws, Corley and Judah, who did buzz PBF in the past (with Judah not receiving a deserved knockdown). Of course, no one should underestimate Floyd’s ring generalship.
Can’t wait for this fight….
Philly Shell deal tends to be obsolete once someone throws three or more punches, especially with someone who possesses the hand speed that Pacman has.
It is also less effective against southpaws.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 7, 2009 2:38 PM EST up reply actions
Personally, I think you can throw out both the de la Hoya blueprint as well as the Castillo blueprint for fighting Floyd. Here’s why:
The Oscar Plan:
Oscar did his best work when he kept Floyd at the end of the jab and then took the fight to him on the ropes. Did Oscar land cleanly to the body? Well, not really, but you would still have to score for Oscar on those occasions since Floyd wasn’t doing much.
As the fight wore on, Oscar inexplicably abandoned the jab, basically ceding the ground Floyd needed for his own range, and as a result, got picked apart by Floyd’s speedy
counters and pot shots.
Why the Oscar plan won’t work for Manny:
The difference between Manny and Oscar’s frames is massive. They’re nothing alike. Their weapons are nothing alike. Though they are both left-hand dominant, they use their lefts in very different ways. Manny doesn’t have the reach of Oscar to use a jab (his right) effectively against Mayweather. Furthermore, Manny has never been much of a jabber anyway. Manny’s right hand works primarily in one of two ways: 1. To set up his hammer of a left hand by pawing out, getting the distance and gauging his opponents rhythm. 2. The right is used to now throw scorching right hooks to the head and occasionally to the body.
As Coach Roach has said himself, you can’t turn a fighter into someone he’s not. Manny is not a jabber. The success of Oscar’s plan was predicated on his utilization of one of his best weapons, the stiff left jab (some will argue for Oscar’s whipping left hook, but whatever).
The JLC plan:
There is, perhaps, no other plan Floyd is more ready for than this. He knows Castillo came the closest to beating him. Pressure only gets you so far, then Floyd adjusts and dominates. JLC had the activity level and body-punching prowess to push Floyd’s D to its limits, making him tentative and overly concerned with blocking and slipping shots. At 135 and in his prime, JLC also had the punch resistance to almost shrug off Floyd’s shots.
Why the JLC plan won’t work for Manny
Again, you have a fighter whose style is nothing like Manny’s. By adopting the JLC plan, Manny might end up surrendering one of his own best assets — his in and out movement. Manny has the chin and volume punching down, but “pressure fighting” is an art in itself, and Manny is not a pressure fighter. If Manny was a true pressure fighter, Cotto wouldn’t have made it into the 12th. Manny should have been able to stalk him properly, trap him, and take him out by the 10th (Cotto was done after 9). Instead, when Cotto felt like he had to retreat, he managed to do just that. Manny is actually pretty terrible at cutting off the ring.
Of course, the one Mayweather opponent whose style and body type most resembles Pacquiao’s is Judah. They’re similar in height, they’re both fast southpaws.
The Judah Plan:
Judah showed early success against Floyd, fighting fast out of his lefty stance, often beating him to the punch and countering well. He gave Floyd enough trouble to prompt him to trade in his L-Guard (or Philly Shell if you like) for ear muffs. Once Floyd showed him a different look, Judah, as he is wont to do, broke down.
Why the Judah plan might be useful to Pacquiao:
What Judah showed is that Floyd has difficulty with speed just like everybody else. It is testament to Floyd’s tactical brilliance that he acceded Judah’s speed advantage, then resolved to stick to a plan that required patience and sharpshooting. Still, we see in this fight, how someone whose handspeed rivals Floyd’s can get some good work done.
Manny brings speed and power that is equal to or greater even than Judah’s. Manny’s chin is better, one can argue his footspeed is better, and no one can question Manny’s warrior heart. He won’t crack. Also, Manny throws much more than Judah does.
So how does all this translate to a successful game plan? Manny has to trust his own speed and power, fire 4-5 punches to Floyd’s one or two, make Floyd fight at a much higher pace, get in and out before Floyd can counter. Get the last shot in and split.
The southpaw factor will make this fight pretty interesting. If Manny is “the best southpaw in history” as Bert Sugar says, does that mean he’s got just the antidote for that patented Mayweather defense, Manny’s rocket left vs The Mayweather shoulder roll? Here’s the problem for Manny; I noticed tin the Cotto fight hat he tends to circle left or his opponent’s right, which means he would be stepping into Money’s lead right. I’m not sure if it’s because Manny was avoiding Cotto’s stronger left hand, knowing that Cotto’s right wasn’t much of a threat, or if it’s just something that Manny does naturally. In any case, for this fight, this is something Roach will have to address.
Floyd’s defense is described as “tight as fort knox.” But it’s not impregnable. Here’s a question: When is Floyd (or any fighter for that matter), susceptible to attack? Answer? When he’s throwing. Make of that what you will.
by Areglado on Dec 7, 2009 3:36 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Lovely Points
I feel that Judah’s success in that fight is overstated but agree that there are still good comparisons to be made. I also saw that Floyd barely used his Philly shell, and how effective this was. It wouldn’t surprise me much is he doesn’t use the shell at all, or goes between it and ear muffs with some frequency.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 7, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Man,
those are very smart points, Areglado. It is very true that Cotto was done after nine rounds; I kept waiting for Manny to finish him. I think you’re right, and I think that your post brings us back around to the original thread and the things that Drunken Cutman set out. Good stuff!
by Don From Prov on Dec 7, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps I overlooked Judah's early success in my analysis
and you are right to say that Pacman failed to cut Cotto off (unless, as some presumed, Pacman was showing mercy on Cotto and was unwilling to go for the kill, which I personally doubt). All good points, Areglado
Actually, I can see where those who believe Pacquiao was “showing mercy” to Cotto are coming from. I don’t know if I would go as far as to phrase it like that — “showing mercy”. I’ d say he was becoming more and more reluctant to hit him. Pacquiao is a sportsman, not a sadist; He loves combat, not punishing beaten foes. Pacquiao is more than happy to meet an opponent’s aggression with his own, but seems less willing against an opponent who cannot or can no longer muster an offense to do so. I think that’s why, towards the latter half of the fight in particular, you saw Manny practically inviting Cotto on. He wanted to finish Cotto, but he wanted it to be a “fight” not a slaughter, not an execution. “C’mon, let’s go!” And especially in the last two rounds, Pacquiao really felt the fight was over, which is why he would look to Kenny Bayless wondering apparently why Bayless couldn’t just call it. What Manny didn’t realize is that it probably would have been more “merciful” to have swarmed Cotto out of the gate in the 10th and gotten him out of there. Manny showed the same tendency in the de la Hoya fight too if you take a good look at it. Sometimes, he’d let Oscar back in the fight.
Contrast this attitude to that of my personal favorite fighter, Duran, who, in the Davey Moore fight, really showed how much he relished hurting his opponent. I mean, there were times in that fight he would slip Moore’s combos, land his own, all while grinning at him, practically laughing at him. Now that’s a killer.
Really good analysis
Esp on the JLC plan. I don’t think Pac has ever been a classic “pressure” fighter, either. At the lighter weights, he was able to bust his opponents up at long range, mostly with the stright left; and he’s fought on the back foot a lot of the time against the bigger guys, at least until he’s established dominance. He’s never been the swarming type, and most of his success comes with fast in-and-out pot-shots, or one-twos. He may be able to use his footspeed to create angles against PBF, but I don’t see him applying pressure a-la Hatton or Castillo (or even Oscar).
by FCF on Dec 7, 2009 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, Manny is pretty much a middle distance fighter. When he’s tangled up in inside, he just throws to back the opponent up. He doesn’t grind them down from there, doesn’t dig. His footspeed is a huuuge asset to him against Floyd. That’s why I think adopting the JLC plan is a mistake, since that plan is designed to break Floyd in the trenches. It ALMOST worked once. But when was the last time Floyd has been in the trenches like that? Hatton? Hatton isn’t a “smart” pressure fighter. Oscar? Oscar was just pretending to be a pressure fighter. And so would Manny.
Actually, Manny was once a pressure fighter
But not anymore. Much early in his career, in the flyweight range, he was. But now, he’s more of a boxer-puncher. That only speaks about how much he has changed and improved. =)
My fear is
that Manny will get duped into a boring fight, i just hope he carries the fight.
the other thing is that Floyd is the smarter fighter in this match. I think Freddie needs to be on his A-Game and Manny needs to really folloe direction. This could end up being another boring Floyd split decision
His only chance is to do what he's been doing throughout the last 2 years
And hope he wins some favorable judges decisions
Roach will have multiple game plans..
I think he will have Manny change his tactics every couple of rounds – keeping Mayweather to continually have to adjust.
The Chop Chop Way
How about the Chop Chop Corley strategy? Counter his jab with a right hand….yes, with Pac it would be a right hook.
Check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtyDlsOO98A&feature=related
It CAN be done. The Castillo, DL Hoya, and Judah strategies did not work cause Floyd BEAT them.
Same strategy but a much better fighter perhaps?
Actually I don’t think any of those strategies are key but there are elements from all of them which could contribute to a win.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 8, 2009 5:09 AM EST up reply actions
If I were Roach I'd get Manny to...
use those fast feet, move to his right, throw the feint and draw Floyd’s lead. Deny him his usual role; counter him with lead right hooks, straight lead lefts down the pipe. Hit him in the shoulders, hit him in the chest, wait for him to punch and make him pay to the body. Hold centre ring but dont stay on the end of his punches, dart in, unload, dart out. Stay busy, be the governor. PacMan SD.
Cool angle cutman, cheers.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
I like the ideas
but I’m not sure that Manny can do that in a fight. Countering isn’t really his thing. However if he can apply his skills to such a plan then I think it would be rather successful.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 8, 2009 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, Goatsnake’s ideas are pretty good. Very similar to how I see a Pacquiao victory playing out.
Countering, is, obviously, an art that lies closest to the very heart of “the sweet science,” When a boxer shows exceptional counter punching abilities, he is often described as a “pure boxer” or a “master boxer.” Manny will never be called those things. Those titles are reserved for guys like Hopkins, Toney, Marquez, and yes, Mayweather.
That being said, it only means that Pacquiao isn’t a natural at countering and cannot be expected to suddenly become a “counterpuncher” for one fight. However, certain basic counter punching principles can be taken and used by Team Pacquiao. Goatsnake is on to this.
1. The opponent is most vulnerable while in attack
Unless Mayweather has an extra arm or two hidden somewhere, there will always be openings whenever he throws a punch. He throws two main punches while at a distance, the lead right and the lead, lunching left hook. In that small split second window, opportunities are present. The question would be whether Pacquiao is fast enough to capitalize. I think he is, but he needs to be drilled incessantly on how to do it.
2. If an opponent is consistently made to pay for attacking in their usual manner, they will either become frustrated and succumb or they will adjust. A change in gameplan is in order.
We saw this against Judah. When Floyd found that Judah was faster, he adjusted, showed Judah a different look and then began breaking him down. Really great stuff. Nevertheless, what did we end up seeing? Floyd turned flat footed, hands high, walking towards Judah looking to counter, which he did. Thing is, Judah panicked. He broke. If Floyd is forced to switch this way against Manny, can Manny capitalize? I think with a very strict, very smart game plan, Manny can do his best work in this scenario. When Floyd is like this, Manny can unload quick combinations and get out fast.
If I was asked what Manny’s greatest asset is going into the fight, I would say there are 2. The first is that Manny is just fearless. He is unafraid to go in there and just try stuff. Second, Freddie Roach. I believe that there is no one in the sport who breaks down styles and puts together strategies the way this man does (maybe N.Richardson comes close).
Manny doesn’t need to counter the counterpuncher. Roach just needs to help integrate certain principles into Manny’s arsenal for the specific task. So how does this work when applied? Actually a lot like Goatsnake described.
Every fighter has “tells.” For instance, when Mayweather dips down and forward slightly, and lowers his right, there is a good chance he’s going to launch that lead right. When he fires it, he usually doesn’t get back in position in front of his opponent but either slides out left (opponent’s right) or falls “into” the opponent, smothers them with a clinch (plus sometimes elbow to the neck), then he’ll throw some very precise body punches before disentangling and resetting. That dip is a sign. Manny needs to watch for that. When the punch comes he should fire his own shot ALMOST simultaneously trusting that his own power trumps Floyd’s and that his own chin will hold up should he get hit. Because if it comes down to swapping shots, well, you gotta go with Manny. That’s the counterpunch principle at work.
But then, Manny isn’t a counterpuncher, so how does his “natural” style come into play? After firing the counterpunch, fire a combination that puts Floyd back on the defensive, then get out fast before Floyd can counter. If Floyd throws, and touches him, he needs to throw back twice as many, then get out. Every time he’s touched, that is a signal to throw. Get the last punch in, get out. Then, after he’s gotten out, he can wave Floyd in to try again. At that point, Floyd would have to do something he doesn’t like to do which is take the initiative. You can’t win a fight just on defense. But once Floyd has to go on the offensive, that plays right into Pacquiao’s (or perhaps, more accurately, into Roach’s) hands.
by Areglado on Dec 8, 2009 1:57 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Man , this is some good analysis here. Your last paragraph is brilliant.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 8, 2009 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
email that to Roach (or are you Freddie in disguise?)
Brilliant stuff Areglado. Sweet science indeed!
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Thanks, man. But I pretty much just illustrated in greater detail the scenario that you presented. I’d been thinking about it a long time, and was really glad to find someone who saw what I’d been seeing (or at least something very close to it) in my mind.
I used to hang around Wild Card a lot and Freddie and I would get into these looong conversations on tactics, history, apocryphal tales, etc… Boxing is that man’s life. I’ve yet to come across someone with as much passion, dedication, and respect for the sport. From what I hear, he’s working with someone on a book project, which is awesome. It’s sad that we can really only hear the wisdom of guys like Arcel, Futch, Blackburn, and the like through what amounts to oral history. It’s important that someone like Freddie leaves us with something more tangible, something to look back to once he’s gone from the sport.
Man, I appreciate the nod, thank you. Sounds like you and Freddie are cut from the same cloth, and as Prov says, real boxing people, like yourself and many others here, are a joy to be around. And yes, Freddie’s book is a must .
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
These are really some great
posts, very good insights and thoughts. Again, while I don’t know that I’d put all my (little dribble of) money down against Floyd, I do believe that Manny can use his feet & speed, his heart & will, and the schooling that Roach gives him to win this fight. Areglado, you have taken the very smart basics that the Drunken Cutman laid out and brought them down to a precise scenario. I impressed. Glad that I was directed to this web-site, almost as good as sitting in at the boxer’s luncheon.
by Don From Prov on Dec 8, 2009 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
Made me smile
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 9, 2009 5:39 AM EST up reply actions
Realy well done. Hope Floyd dont read it he may find out whats coming haha
"Good, so it can’t go any deeper." - Arturo Gatti after being told he was cut to the bone
Actually, initially, I didn’t want to put anything like this up. You can ask Drunk Cutman, the beginnings of this fanpost can be found in another thread where we were discussing tactics and I said that I didn’t want to go into details for fear that perhaps Mayweather reads this blog (I meant that as a joke of course). But after reading everyone else’s input, I figured, oh, what the hell… Besides, if Floyd should resort to reading blogs like this in search of possible strategies to be used against him then he’s really in trouble…hahaha…
Well,
one obvious thing is that most posters put it on Manny to put together a fight plan; I believe one of the site managers said (paraphrasing) that he could see more ways to beat Manny than to beat Floyd. Unspoken consensus, even among Manny fans, seems to be that victory for him is both more elusive and need be more specific (in terms of what he has to do). If there is a plan to be out together, I guess Roach will suss it out.
Lord,
If there is a plan to be PUT together—
That’s why they give us a chance to Preview, I guess.
And it would be Manny’s team, not Manny, coming up with a plan.
Well, it IS on Manny and Team Pacquiao. Love him or hate him, Mayweather isn’t lying when he says no one has figured him out yet. Roach came pretty close with Oscar though, didn’t he? He’s studied Mayweather before. Only this time he’s got a fighter in his absolute physical best, who is like a sponge when it comes to learning new things in the ring, and who has complete faith in him as a trainer.
Still, an enormous task ahead of them.
Of course it would be Manny's team and not Manny
I think we can fairly safely assert that Roach does most of the thinking in that camp.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 8, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, his physical appearnce belies a very shrewd and street smart guy who grew up in the projects of Dedham, MA. He is a master at playing head games. Can’t wait to see what he has in store for Roger.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Dec 8, 2009 2:26 PM EST reply actions
I agree,
Argeldo, it is on Team Pacquiao. At least, every appearance would say so. And yes, Manny’s team = Freddie Roach, and they face enormous task for sure, but I believe—at the risk of going against Floyd, not a thing one wants to do—that they can accomplish it.
Force of nature, with killer speed always has a chance.
Don't be fooled
Don’t be fooled … Mayweather is going to step up the game just like he did against the late warrior " Corrales" I actually don’t think Manny could have handled Chico at that time. Go back in the tapes. If I’m not mistaken that was one of the few fights that Mayweather was actually the underdog. Mayweather talks shit but he can back it up. After this exciting fight of boxing between these two, hopefully people will just come to the understanding that their are people who can just box .. Period. And the out of the arena shenanigans can be separate from the talent in some cases.
hopefully people will just come to the understanding that their are people who can just box .. Period
For the most part, the people who’ve been commenting here acknowledge that. That’s why we’ve been thinking up strategies for Manny to beat Mayweather and not the other way around. All Floyd has to do beat Manny is be Floyd.
that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 8, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions
Well,
does he dare eat a peach? Shall he part his hair behind? No Prince Hamlet, nor meant to be.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
Related FanPosts on Bad Left Hook
Related FanShots on Bad Left Hook
!["I don't want to discuss anything about [the meeting with Jerry Jones] until after the Margarito thing in California. And then we'll announce the venue and the press conference schedule. I don't want to disrespect anybody or anything. California is going to decide on Wednesday and then whichever way California decides, various state commissions will decide whichever way they think is best."
--Bob Arum (Robert Morales, BoxingScene.com)
(Photo by Jed Jacobsohn/Getty Images)](http://cdn0.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/138077/97670331_small.jpg)
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
