P4P Top 20 Update: Vic on the move, Joe on the outs
Seems like we just did this a couple weeks ago, right? That's 'cause we did. Not a lot has happened in that time overall, but Vic Darchinyan won again in very impressive fashion, and the No. 2 man, Joe Calzaghe, has retired from the sport. So there are some re-shufflings afoot.
1. Manny Pacquiao (1)
The Pac-man stays in the top spot, of course, and now there's not even that undefeated great fighter next in line. The gap is wide... sort of.
Next: May 2 v. Ricky Hatton
2. Juan Manuel Marquez (3)
How bad would you like to see Pacquiao-Marquez III at this point? Conventional wisdom says the younger, stronger Pacquiao eventually really gets the best of Juan Manuel, but Marquez has twice pushed Pacquiao to the limit and then some. There are still fans that will tell you Juan won both fights. (I'm not one -- I thought he won the second but that it was highly debatable, and I thought the draw in the first fight was the correct decision.) If those two were to fight again after wins over Hatton and Diaz (no easy task in either case), you're talking about the consensus top two fighters in the sport, pound-for-pound.
Next: Feb. 28 v. Juan Diaz
3. Bernard Hopkins (4)
With Calzaghe retired and Roy Jones a publicly advertised shell of his former self, Hopkins only has a few possible options. One would be a climb up to cruiserweight, where anyone in the division would likely love to take a crack at the old man because even though Hop has never really been a draw, he's still a bigger star than anyone the division has to offer. Matching him with Ring Magazine champ Tomasz Adamek could make for a good fight, and should he win, the 44-year old Hopkins would have yet another feather in his lock Hall of Fame career.
Next: TBA
4. Shane Mosley (5)
For a guy that just won a huge fight that most expected him to lose, Sugar Shane is stuck playing the waiting game. Feelers were sent out to Mayweather and there's been basically no response. He could rematch Miguel Cotto if Margarito is unavailable. He could fight Andre Berto, a fellow titlist. He could wait and see if Manny Pacquiao would want to fight him at 147 pounds should Pacquiao beat Hatton. There are a lot of options, but none that are screaming out right now.
Next: TBA
5. Paul Williams (6)
Welterweight, junior middleweight, middleweight, whatever. Paul Williams fights at the weight that'll have him. If Williams is able to beat Winky Wright in convincing fashion on April 11, he'll have a case to jump Mosley, even though Wink has been out of the ring for almost two years and is getting on in years. One thing that Williams and his promoters do have to accept is that there are a lot of guys that will pass on the chance to fight him because he can be a stylistic nightmare, but then you have to throw in the fact that Williams has never built a fanbase. How this guy didn't fight in the south more and build up a local legion of fans is beyond me. I know the money is generally elsewhere, but Fernando Guerrero is turning Salisbury, Maryland, into a boxing town, for the love of Pete. People love guys from their area that they can identify with. Paul never did any of that.
Next: Apr. 11 v. Winky Wright
6. Antonio Margarito (7)
Tomorrow, tomorrow, it's only a day away...
Part of me worries that Margarito has enlisted such a high-priced lawyer, because it gives me the idea that he thinks he has something to worry about, and that he has the suspicion the CSAC is about to lay down a ruling he'll want to appeal.
Next: TBA
7. Miguel Cotto (8)
Cotto hasn't fought since losing to Margarito last July and there's probably not a lot we'll learn from his upcoming bout. If Cotto struggles with Jennings at all, something is wrong, because 80% of Miguel Cotto should be able to pick Jennings apart.
Next: Feb. 21 v. Michael Jennings
8. Ivan Calderon (10)
Sometimes it's easy to forget that Calderon (32-0, 6 KO) is 34 years old. I get the feeling if he fights Ulises Solis, he'll lose. He might even lose to Edgar Sosa. In three of Calderon's last five fights, he's been pushed fairly hard. Ronald Barrera got a split decision against him in Colombia (Barrera's home country), and Hugo Cazares twice gave Calderon a battle. As great a technician as he is -- arguably the best pure boxer of this generation -- time catches up with everyone. Except for Bernard Hopkins.
9. Israel Vazquez (9)
Vazquez hopes to be cleared to fight in June. I get the horrible gut feeling we may never see Izzy in the ring again. My man crush on Vazquez as a fighter is indescribably huge. I have never enjoyed watching a single guy fight as much as I have Vazquez over the years. Just for argument's sake, if Vazquez had to retire due to his eye, is there anyone in history that would've had a final four fights as jaw-droppingly great as his three bouts with Rafael Marquez and the stirring comeback knockout of Jhonny Gonzalez?
Next: TBA
10. Rafael Marquez (11)
The Marquez camp pipes up once every couple of months, mostly to say they aren't interested in a fight that's been mentioned. This has happened recently with both Celestino Caballero and Daniel Ponce de Leon. But other than that, there's been nary a peep from Rafael in 11 months. Both he and Vazquez earned their time off and then some. But the more time off both men take, the more you have to think that their trilogy may have ravaged them to such a degree that they'll never be the same again, and maybe not even close to it. They are both here because they've earned it, but if neither was here after his next fight, I wouldn't be surprised at all. And there'd be no shame in it for either man.
Next: TBA
11. Vic Darchinyan (17)
I have never been a fan of Vic Darchinyan's, but I've always liked to watch him fight. Back when he was one of the sport's purest and most vicious brawlers, he was great fun. Now that he's had his ego checked a little by Nonito Donaire's left hook, Vic has resurfaced at the top of the sport with dominating victories over Dimitri Kirilov, Cristian Mijares (top 10 P4P for many at the time) and now Jorge Arce. Darchinyan has so impressed me since last August by adding a jab and a little bit of defense that I think he deserves genuine top 10 consideration from everyone right now. He has cleaned house at 115 pounds and has the guts to want to keep going up and up to fight the best guys he can. And to Vic's credit, HE wants a rematch with Donaire, even though he'll only get one if he leaves Gary Shaw, too.
Next: TBA
12. Kelly Pavlik (12)
Our pal Tim Starks from The Queensbury Rules did an article the other day wondering why, exactly, Kelly Pavlik and trainer Jack Loew were so adamant about "forgetting about" the Hopkins loss. Like Tim, I get what they're saying, but that's one thing. They really seem like they have no interest in discussing it, period. There's a lot Kelly Pavlik can learn from that loss to Hopkins. Bernard battered him, and I don't care if his elbow was falling off and he had The Black Death. Pavlik looked terrible and like he didn't know what at all to do with a guy that took away his straight right hand. Still, Kelly's one of my favorite fighters, one of the real good guys in the sport, and I'm rooting for him to come back strong. I think there's a chance Rubio can knock him out, though. Rubio can punch, he can take a shot, and he's getting Pavlik at the best time possible.
Next: Feb. 21 v. Marco Antonio Rubio
13. Chad Dawson (13)
Bad Chad is Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s favorite fighter. He ain't mine, but he's got the type of talent that could someday make Floyd's declaration of Dawson being the best in the sport pound-for-pound not sound so butt crazy. Here's hoping that when he smokes Tarver again on the 14th of March, it's the last we'll hear of Tarver.
Next: Mar. 14 v. Antonio Tarver
14. Ricky Hatton (14)
Next: May 2 v. Manny Pacquiao
15. Nate Campbell (15)
Nate literally has a tall order next weekend against Ali Funeka, but one thing to keep in mind is this is the first time that Funeka won't be fighting in South Africa. He's not used to the travel, not used to being away from home, not used to the spotlight of American TV, not used to a lot of things. Nate has been here before. Even though Funeka has some real physical advantages, Campbell likely has a huge edge in the mental game for this fight. On another note, I know it took a punk move from Ricardo Mayorga for it to happen, but I take great joy in a guy as down to earth and cool as Nate Campbell main eventing on HBO after this long in the sport.
Next: Feb. 14 v. Ali Funeka
16. Arthur Abraham (16)
To be absolutely blunt about it, King Arthur's next fight is a crock of s**t. I don't wish to disrespect Philly's Lajuan Simon (21-0-2, 12 KO) but he's never beaten anyone and has no business in the ring with Abraham. I hope he enjoys his trip to Germany and is getting paid nicely, because Abraham is going to make mincemeat of him. If Abraham and his promoters are going to constantly take shots at Felix Sturm and his team for not wanting to fight, then maybe they should come up with better opponents than Simon, Elvin Ayala and a clearly overmatched Raul Marquez, though Marquez was a mandatory that earned his shot and a swell dude to boot. If either Pavlik or Abraham would land a fight with Sturm, I'd be thrilled, because I'm about 90% certain neither guy has any intention of fighting the other, so Sturm is the next-best option.
Next: Mar. 14 v. Lajuan Simon
17. Celestino Caballero (18)
Caballero is as tall as Antonio Margarito and has one inch less reach than him, and fights twenty-five pounds lighter. And Margarito is a big welterweight. At some point, Caballero will move up. How high could he go and still be good?
Next: Mar. 20 v. Jeffrey Mathebula
18. Chris John (19)
Lots of people are speculating that folks are trying to set up Marquez-John II with the February 28 HBO card. The big red flag in that happening, in my view, comes from the weight differential. Marquez is fighting at 135 and fighters rarely have any desire to go back down, usually with very good reason. John hasn't left 126. Though class-jumpings have happened before (Mosley never fought 140, for instance), they aren't frequent. I also don't figure John would have any interest in putting his "0" on the line against Marquez again because there's probably not enough money in it for him to do that. He has zero U.S. fanbase and I highly doubt Marquez will go back to Indonesia to fight him again. I realize I'm overlooking Rocky Juarez a little by just talking about that, and I hate to, but I don't think Juarez can beat him.
Next: Feb. 28 v. Rocky Juarez
19. Ulises Solis (-)
One of the most overlooked and underappreciated fighters in the sport today, in my view. Fighting at 108 pounds doesn't help, plus the last time he was on widely-seen American TV (I believe) was his 2007 stinker win over a disinterested Will Grigsby. He's lost just once, to Nelson Dieppa in 2004, one of the stragest scored fights you'll come across (120-108 shutouts for Dieppa on two cards, then Bill Alfred's 114-114 draw). Solis is set to outclass Brian Viloria on March 22 in Quezon City.
Next: Mar. 22 v. Brian Viloria
20. Wladimir Klitschko (20)
As good as I think Wladimir is, his next fight has to be special if he's going to stay here much longer. This creaming bums he's way better than thing speaks only to the fact that he's not fighting anyone worth a damn. That's not his fault, really, and it's not fair, but life isn't fair and neither are P4P lists.
Next: TBA, likely June v. David Haye
Drop-Outs: Joe Calzaghe (2) had a long stay on the pound-for-pound lists, even if he didn't reach yours until a few years back. Like Mayweather, it's no guarantee he stays retired, but also like Floyd, there just might not be a fight that intrigues him enough or makes him enough money to return to the ring.
Honorable Mentions: Jermain Taylor, Mikkel Kessler, Cristian Mijares, Steven Luevano, Pongsaklek Wonjongkam, Hozumi Hasegawa, Nonito Donaire, Roman Gonzalez, Juan Manuel Lopez, Fernando Montiel, Juan Diaz, David Haye
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44 comments
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Comments
Solid list
I’ve about reached the point where I’m ready to knock Vasquez and Marquez out of my lists – it’s been a year since they’ve fought, and they still don’t have anything new scheduled. However, I would LOVE to see Darchinyan face off against one of them, or even against Caballero (which would probably end up being the strangest looking fight in history).
I know it sounds dumb, but I would have picked ‘prime’ Brian Viloria to beat Solis. Viloria was a beast when he was aggressive and actually threw punches. I’ve never seen a fighter so young look so old.
I think Tomasz Adamek at least deserves an honorable mention, possibly even back-end consideration, on a P4P list. In reality, he’s a 180/185 lb fighter who’s beefed up a bit to 200 and has managed to become lineal champ there.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Feb 9, 2009 11:02 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like to give it about 16 months of inactivity
A year happens sometimes. But yeah they’re both on the verge of heading out just because, like happened to Wink. I guess Marquez is taking a small fight in April (?) in Mexico to knock off the rust and then wants to do something bigger.
Viloria angers me. I was like, “This is a guy I’m going to love watching for a long time.” Then poof, no more punching. What the F, Brian?
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 9, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree on Adamek....
Very surprised that no cruisers made your list. No Adamek (who has beaten Bell and Cunningham recently), no Banks, no Enzo Maccarinelli (although I feel his stock is permanently damaged by the twatting he took from David Haye), no Haye (I say this because although he now fights at heavy, he DID make himself absolute top-dog at cruiser, the Mormeck and Maccarinelli wins were very impressive).
With a list of fighters like that (Adamek, Haye, Macca, Banks, Cunningham, plus others) in the division, I am surprised that none of them even received a mention with the exception of Haye, in the very last ‘honorable mention’ spot. Have you got something against cruisers? ;)
Also, a little more on Haye. What has the guy got to do to earn a bit of respect? He has only been beaten once, by an aging yet still creditable Carl Thompson, years ago. He punched himself out in that fight, and paid the price. Since then he has gone 12-12-(11)-0, with two of those fightsat heavyweight. He has beaten Mormeck, who I rated very highly, and beat him well. He then beat Enzo inside 3 rounds, blasting him away as if Enzo were nothing but a ‘rabbit in headlights’-style sparring partner. There are plenty of men on this list who have not got the record of a David Haye, yet make it onto the list when he is continually absent.
I know the list is subjective, and you can only tell it how you see it, but I am simply stating my surprise at his exclusion, and wondering why. No disrespect intended. :)
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 9, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Haye was in the honorable mentions
And if I remember correctly, he was top 20 when he was a cruiser, just now he’s a heavyweight and hasn’t done much there.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Feb 9, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"with the exception of Haye, in the very last ‘honorable mention’ spot."
was what I said….
I still say, if he was there, and has now moved up in weight, and is still on the same unbeaten run, it is strange he has been moved down in status…..
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 9, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maccarinelli and Banks are nowhere close. Haye is close and if he beat Klitschko I would move him back in and aggressively. Cunningham wasn’t top 20 when he fought Adamek so he sure isn’t now. Adamek is close and I should’ve put him in the HMs at least.
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 9, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sold on Adamek
the fight with Cunningham was great, surprisingly exciting fight, some true drama and even humanity when Cunningham gave a look to the wife on his way up off the mat.
But, I think Cunningham should beat Adamek based on skill-set. Cunningham physically is a better beast than Adamek, with the only disparity in Adamek’s favor being power. If Cunningham would be willing to fight a disciplined, boxer’s fight from the outset, real double-jabs, effective movement, counter-punching over the 2, he beats Adamek on a UD. There’s no reason, perhaps other than an ability to execute a game-plan, that Cunningham can’t beat Adamek.
For his part, Adamek can hit like a donkey. But to me that’s about it. I can’t justify putting a guy on a P 4 P, or even list him as HM just because he’s a bruiser. At the heart of P 4 P is that if a particular guy was the same proportional dimensions and skills at a different weight, he’d be equally effective. I don’t buy that with Adamek. There are much better boxers with equal or better pop both heavier and lighter. Not to mention stamina.
by lcollins1 on Feb 9, 2009 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t have a problem with a “bruiser” (with a terrific beard I would add) lurking around in the bottom half of my P4P list. C’est la vie.
by Matt Miller on Feb 10, 2009 12:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was a heck of a LHW
And was known for being a boxer-puncher back then. Based on the other 6 or 7 Adamek fights I’ve seen, I’d say he changed his style up a bit for the Cunningham fight because he knew he wouldn’t be able to outbox him. I don’t think Adamek at 200 is any more of a bruiser than, say, Vasquez is at 122.
Adamek has a good chin, good power, decent enough technique and decent enough defense. It was only a month ago that there was a guy in the top 5 P4P almost completely on the basis of his being big for the weight class, having a great chin and having great stamina.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Feb 10, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't buy his technique
He’s got limited to no head-movement, he’s a straightforward, flat-footed, puncher with bad stamina. As far as “…decent enough technique…”. I can only agree with that based on his ability to throw a straight punch, which he does perhaps very well.
But, Vasquez fights almost ‘on the hop’, he generally stays on his toes, changes levels to hit to the body, counters better than Adamek, and can turn a fighter inside.
And what fighter did he beat at LHW? He got systematically dismantled by #13 on this list.
by lcollins1 on Feb 10, 2009 5:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Two great fights with Paul Briggs were his LHW standouts. Also beat Thomas Ulrich.
Adamek’s very good defensively.
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 10, 2009 9:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Almost Jumped for joy
13. Chad Dawson (13)
Bad Chad is Floyd Mayweather Jr.‘s favorite fighter. He ain’t mine, but he’s got the type of talent that could someday make Floyd’s declaration of Dawson being the best in the sport pound-for-pound not sound so butt crazy. Here’s hoping that when he smokes Tarver again on the 14th of March, it’s the last we’ll hear of Tarver.
Next: Mar. 14 v. Antonio Tarver
I just finished watching the Darchinyan-Arce fight and there was a post segment where they showed Chad Dawson and then something about braking news came on the board. I thought it was something about the fight with Antonio Tarver was cancelled and I got way too excited. However, I was horribly teased after the real braking news were of Joe Calzaghe’s retirement.
Anyone that has any decency... please let me know if the Urango-Ngoudjo's 10th round fight is over.
by CRAZEDANG1280 on Feb 9, 2009 11:11 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm sure Tarver will stick around
But hopefully he’ll have the sense to feed himself to some up and coming prospects. Honestly, I think he still has enough left in the tank to beat guys like Mack and Cloud.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Feb 9, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
kessler
If he had been fighting in the states, hed be in the top 10.
by ryanwk628 on Feb 9, 2009 3:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Kesler is a very good fighter;
and I kind of agree with you.
BUT- the fact is he has fought too many bums to really be considered a top P4P fighter, in my opinion. Could you imagine Calzaghe fighting Danilo Hauser (or equivalent) at the same stage of his career? Or Pacquiao? Or any of the other top 5? You only get massive kudos for fighting massive fights.
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 9, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my logic is
after having watched both calzaghe fights, if Hop is number 3, Kessler is up there.
by ryanwk628 on Feb 9, 2009 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hopkins has beaten a few top class opponents though.....
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 9, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about Taylor then?
He beat Hopkins twice and the rest of his resume is still better than Kessler’s. Should he be in the top 5?
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Feb 9, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He beat Hopkins about 350 years ago....
and has done nothing since, except have his ass handed to him by Pavlik….
If he beats Froch, he deserves a shout. Not until.
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 9, 2009 6:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Froch
I’m sorry, but neither my eyes or my math can get onboard with Froch. Honestly, Jermaine has faced better competition BY FAR… its not even close. Sure, Taylor can fight Froch (and most likely beat him widely) but it doesn’t reallyraise his stock. Froch beating Taylor definitively??? That would raise Carl’s stock… but not into the top 20 elite in the world.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Feb 9, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just meant that;
with the winning of a world title, and the beating of a credible opponent at a heavier weight than he won his previous titles, he will deserve consideration again. Until he has beaten an opponent who has something to offer, he can’t be in the list.
Not too illogical, really!!
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 10, 2009 5:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"and has done nothing since"
Except fight to a draw with the #3 P4P fighter in the world at the time and beat two other beltholders. Yes, it’s been a while, but it’s been just as long since Kessler beat Mundine, which is easily his best win, which might not be as good of a win as Taylor’s 5th best win.
Taylor got beat twice by Pavlik, and tends to not be rated well because his wins over Hopkins were questionable and he hasn’t had a dominating win where he actually looked good since before he had a belt, but purely based on resume he should be higher. Personally, I don’t have him in my top-20 either and I have him and Taylor rated right at about the same level, but that’s because I (like most of you probably) also take theoretical head to head into account, and how solid their wins looked. If the argument you want to make for Kessler is that he’s barely lost a round in his career except to Joe Calzaghe, then I’d buy that. But it’s just bunk to claim that Kessler’s resume is better.
A win over Froch shouldn’t help much. He’s slow, he’s hittable, his footwork blows, he has major technical flaws and his stamina is well below average. He has good power, a good chin and a loud mouth, and that’s about it. The fact that he barely won in a drag-out war with a guy who doesn’t belong in the top 20 at SMW and who struggled against Omar Pittman and Kingsley Ikeke speaks volumes about where he should really rank. That said, Froch would still have a puncher’s chance based on Taylor’s somewhat dodgy chin and stamina.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Feb 10, 2009 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd forgotten Winky....
and I’m not sure anyone can blame me.
There is a small part of my brain utterly convinced that Winky Wright doesn’t really exist…..
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 10, 2009 5:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Taylor's chin?
I don’t know… Very rarely have I seen him badly hurt in the ring. To be fair, Jermaine hasn’t fight a lot of big punchers, and the one big puncher he did fight KO’ed him, but I think the jury is still out on whether he’s actually “chinny.” The cumulative shots that put him down looked pretty brutal, and I doubt any other middleweight fighting right now could have stood up to them.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Feb 10, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well I'll name one

"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 10, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
heh
Fair enough. And hey we might actually get the chance to find out this year. Breaking a jaw and carpet bombing a chin are two different things.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Feb 10, 2009 11:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm having a mental block.....
Who is that?
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 11, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
p4p
is about skill vs weight – not record. Calzaghe was number 2, when usually guys in the higher weight classes dont fare as well because their speed and skill set would not translate to a weight class in the low 100s, where as a guy at 230 with Pac Mans skill set would rule the HW division. There are just so many fewer guys that size, you dont get the same talent pool to choose from.
The Kessler argument that if he were in the states is because he is a very talented, disciplined fighter with a solid skill set which would translate to other weight classes, hence p4p.
I think a lot of people dont understand the logic behind the expression pound for pound.
by ryanwk628 on Feb 10, 2009 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think a lot of people dont understand the logic behind the expression pound for pound.
It’s about ranking the best fighters regardless of weight. It really is that simple. There’s no more to it than that.
And maybe Kessler would be higher if he were in the States and fighting better opponents, but he’s not, and he appears to have no intention of doing anything about it.
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 10, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you cant fault him for that
because why would you when you can make tons of money over there, be the WBA super middle weight champ, a one loss record and sell out 50,000 seat arenas?
He fought really well against Joe and rocked him in the 4th.
In therms of being the best at his weight and how he stacks up against other people at their weights, he should be right up there.
We need to get over this notion that the best fighters fight in the states. Maybe if more people still cared about boxing enough to recognize the good Europeans, they would come over here to fight. Thankfully hes only 29, so he may have enough of a career left for the few knowlagable boxing fans left to realize how good this guy is and hype him up enough to be a draw in the states.
No one noticed Joe until he was 34.
by ryanwk628 on Feb 10, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
dude
You brought up Kessler being higher fighting in the States, not me. I think he’s one of the 25 best fighters in the entire sport. I’m not exactly crapping on him. But the fact is Kessler fights Danilo Haussler and the like for big gates in Denmark, which I understand from a business standpoint but doesn’t make him somehow excused for the fairly weak opposition he’s faced over much of his career. The good news is that super middle is one of the best divisions in boxing and guys are going to want to fight him. The bad news is he’s not exactly on the shortlist with either HBO or Showtime thanks to his promoters.
He doesn’t rank in my top 20 — even though I said he could slide in anywhere from 14 to 20 and I’d agree you have a case for him — because his best win is Anthony Mundine or Librado Andrade. Nobody on that list has less of a qualified resume than Kessler, who did give Joe Calzaghe a tough fight but nobody on earth thought he won it. Many believe Hopkins beat Calzaghe (I don’t).
We need to get over this notion that the best fighters fight in the states.
Do I not give European fighters their props? You cannot argue that in eight out of ten cases, though, the best and biggest fights happen on American soil.
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 10, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Im just trying to talk to the guy up
If Im ever going to see him fight live, he needs to come to MSG. Before that happens, he needs people in the states to recognize he is good and should be on the short list for big super mw fights or he wont be a draw.
by ryanwk628 on Feb 10, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no problem with talking him up
He’s a hell of a fighter and I think the best 168 pounder. I think he probably gut checks Taylor and I’m still not sure how Taylor responds to that. I think he knocks Bute out. And I think he dismantles Froch.
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 10, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
If he was fighting the same guys he’s been fighting, probably not. He’s a legitimate top 20 candidate on the strength of his pre-Calzaghe wins, but he hasn’t done squat since then, and it’s not like he’s ever beaten a top 50 P4P fighter much less a top 20 P4P fighter. If he fights and beats someone who’s relatively proven, such as Abraham, Pavlik, Taylor or Bute, then he probably vaults quite a bit higher, but as of now he’s still an unknown.
Hopkins is top 3 on the basis of blasting Pavlik and his prior accomplishments (Tarver and Winky) more than due to closely losing to Calzaghe, and frankly Kessler lost to Calzaghe by a much clearer margin than Hopkins. Hopkins you could at least argue won the fight. Kessler clearly won no more than 4 rounds, and I personally only had him winning 2.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Feb 9, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a Kessler fan
Very good fighter. His resume has absolutely nothing that anyone 11-20 doesn’t have, though. You could put him, say, 14-20 or so and I wouldn’t really argue. I can’t see him higher than that.
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 9, 2009 8:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good list, though I have some quibbles. I would reverse Cotto and Margarito, and restack the bottom five thus:
16. Arthur Abraham
17. Chris John
18. Wladimir Klitschko
19. Tomasz Adamek
20. David Haye
My two cents.
by Matt Miller on Feb 9, 2009 6:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with your inclusions;
But would personally put Haye higher than Wladimir. I just don’t see Wlad getting close to a Haye who is the same height, weight etc. Wlad doesn’t have Haye’s natural gifts, and Haye is coming up from a lighter weight. Surely that is what P4P is all about?
Five attributes;
Power- I don’t see a distinct advantage for either man, maybe Wlad shades it.
WK 8 DH 7 (this is obviously based on power at HW, as Haye is a 9/10 at cruiser, at least.)
Speed (Hand and foot)- Haye wins this one, no doubt at all.
WK 7 DH 9
Offensive Skill- Haye has more agression, more angles, more shots with either hand. Wlad only realy has the ‘old 1-2’ of any effect.
WK 7 DH 9
Defensive Skill
Two questionable chins, Wlad has been knocked over and out by a few, Haye seems to have tightened up, but edge probably goes to Wlad.
WK 7 DH 6
Mental strength
Wlad lacks belief, and tends to go into a shell when under pressure. Haye responds with fire when hit (like against Enzo), and there can be no doubt about his self-belief.
Wlad 6 DH 9
I have based these theoretical scores on how I believe they measure up at HW. Since Haye is seen as a legit conteder at HW, having moved up from cruiser where he was undisputed #1, he has to be above Wlad in any P4P list, in my opinion. Were Haye 3.5 inches taller, and with 4 inches more reach, I don’t see how Wlad beats him. Wlad is so much bigger, yet HAye is seen by a lot of people as favourite. It is counter intuituve in my eyes to have Wlad above Haye, and I don’t really know how to explain it better than in this post.
For the record, I’d haveVitali in there ahead of Wladimir, too. Since he is widely regarded as the better fighter, and they have both fought exclusively in the same division, I’m surprised Vitali hasn’t got in there above Wlad.
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 10, 2009 5:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wlad doesn’t have Haye’s natural gifts, and Haye is coming up from a lighter weight. Surely that is what P4P is all about?
It’s really just ranking the best fighters in the world regardless of their weight because if you rank “the best fighters in the world” then Wladimir and Vitali Klitschko are 1 and 2. It’s not like Manny Pacquiao can beat them. This is all P4P is; I think people have tried to manipulate it too much over the years.
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 10, 2009 5:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My point is, then,
that Haye is a better fighter than either,P4P, since he is seen as a legit challenger to either or both, and has been fighting at a weight that is about a quarter removed from either of them. Therefore, if Haye were as big, he would surely be a massive favourite, and therefore he is better, P4P, than either of the Klitschkos.
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 10, 2009 6:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See, I don’t really think Haye is better than either of them. Both of the Klitschkos are excellent boxers.
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 10, 2009 9:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't agree;
That a natural 240lb Haye, with the same natural height and reach as Wlad, would destroy him?
Honestly?
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Feb 10, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe?
But he’s not. P4P to me isn’t so much about the theoreticals. If Manny Pacquiao weighed 220 pounds he…wouldn’t be Manny Pacquiao.
I think Wlad is a much smarter fighter than Haye and he’s also incredibly strong.
"I was trying to rob him. And he took my gun from me. And the gun was full of blanks. And he shot a blank into my eye. And now I cannot see from this eye ever again, the doctors say."
"Well to be honest it sounds like it's all your fault."
by SC on Feb 10, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

by 








!["[Timothy Bradley and I] still have unfinished business between us. But for now everyone gives him a pass. That's f***ed up. We have 2 close rounds, then he fouls me with his big ass buckethead, mashing my eyeball so I cant see, but I'm the asshole? Whatever man."
-- Nate Campbell speaking with Rick Reeno of BoxingScene.com
I disagree that there was anything close about Bradley-Campbell's first two rounds, but you can never deny that Nate Campbell is a funny dude.](http://cdn0.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/95575/natecampbell_workout1_small.jpg)







