Marquez's challenge to Mayweather was really meant for Manny
by Scott Christ on Mar 1, 2009 10:46 AM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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After knocking out Juan Diaz in the ninth round last night, world lightweight champion Juan Manuel Marquez decided to take a shot at current pound-for-pound ruler Manny Pacquiao by calling out Floyd Mayweather Jr., the semi-retired pound-for-pound king of old.
We'll get into it more in a moment, but for now let's hear from Golden Boy promoter Oscar de la Hoya:
Promoter Oscar De La Hoya said he fully expected Mayweather to return and said he’d work to arrange a Mayweather-Marquez fight or a Mayweather-Shane Mosley match. But he took a little jab at the man who defeated him in 2007 and said he doubted Mayweather would be up to the challenge.
“He will be back, absolutely,” De La Hoya said of Mayweather. “He will be back. If he wants to fight a Shane Mosley or a Juan Manuel Marquez, or any of our other fighters, they’re right here waiting for him.
“Juan Manuel is a dangerous, dangerous fighter for Mayweather, and I don’t see him taking it because he is so dangerous. Just like he won’t take Mosley. Absolutely, I have no doubt he is [looking for safe fights].”
There are so many things that run through my mind with this.
First of all, I will say that I agree with Oscar that Mayweather will not return for a risky fight. He'll look for something he is positive he will win. I can see him returning against Pacquiao, which might seem like the toughest fight for him, but it's not. Mayweather not only has some natural size on Manny, but Floyd is an underrated puncher with outrageous accuracy that has chewed up aggressive fighters in the past. Ricky Hatton, Diego Corrales and Arturo Gatti all got their asses handed to them by Mayweather.
I'm not saying Pacquiao isn't a better fighter than those guys, because skills-wise, he is. But none of them came very close to doing anything to Floyd. He walked through Gatti, dominated Chico, and put Hatton away when the time came for the cream to rise to the top.
Floyd, like many great defensive fighters, preys on aggression. Pacquiao would have to be a career-best to beat Mayweather. I'm also not saying I don't want to see that fight, because you're damn right I do.
The toughest fights for Floyd are genuine welterweights like Shane Mosley or Miguel Cotto. I think Andre Berto could give him a hell of a fight thanks to his natural speed and power. He may not have logged the miles that a Mosley has, but he's too fast for him to miss everything, no matter how sharp Floyd is.
As for the Marquez challenge, I think people are going to make too much of it. I love Juan Manuel Marquez and he's a phenomenal fighter, but naturally he's really a featherweight whose skills have carried him up to remarkable heights at 130 and 135 pounds. He's also in his mid-30s and gets hit more now than he used to. Juan Diaz pushed him hard before Marquez took him apart. Floyd Mayweather is not Juan Diaz. Marquez is great with the sneaky rights and the left hooks, and he's a very talented boxer.
But does he catch Floyd like he catches Diaz? No. Does he catch Floyd like he catches Pacquiao? No, because in this area, Floyd is undoubtedly the superior of everyone in the sport. No one skillfully avoids getting hit like Floyd Mayweather.
To me, the Marquez comment was more a shot at Pacquiao. Marquez has made no bones about the fact that he wants Pacquiao again because he feels he's beaten him twice and not been credited either time.
By saying, "Well, Pacquiao won't fight me, so I want Mayweather," he's digging at Pacquiao's pride. He knows he's not going to fight Floyd Mayweather. If Floyd signed off, I'm sure Juan Manuel would, too. For one thing it'd be a huge payday and a big-time fight, and say he won -- whoa. For another thing I'm certain JMM has the stones to go through with it.
But Mayweather cannot duck Juan Manuel Marquez because it's not a realistic fight. Just because Marquez (fighting at 135 pounds) called out Mayweather (who last fought at 147) doesn't mean Floyd is now on the hook to go, "Yes! Tremendous!" He gets more money to fight a whole mess of other guys if he chooses to fight at all.
It was a diversionary challenge. What Juan Manuel Marquez really said, "Hey, Pacquiao: Fight me again if you've got the guts." This ain't even about Mayweather.
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This is a completely plausible analysis. It’s also possible, though, that this was less calculated—just some good old fashioned saber-rattling from Marquez.
As a side note, if Paq continues to refuse to fight Marquez after the Hatton fight, how about Marquez vs. Hatton? I’m kind of surprised no one has talked about this fight. Personally, I’d love to see it, especially if Hatton makes a good show for himself again Paq.
It was a good jab at Manny. Common… in 24 rounds of fighting the difference on the score cards is just a single point. I think everyone would love to see a 3rd fight but it is understandable why Manny would want to take other fights.
I personally have never thought too highly of Hatton and if he were to meet Marquez, I think he would beat him. I thought Marquez really looked pudgy vs Diaz in his last fight and in all reality he is a blown up 126 fighter who has enough skills to still be great at 135. 140 would be too much for him. I think that is his walking weight.
pudgy vs. diaz? JMM had an 8-pack at the weigh-in and lean as hell at fight time too.
by boxingstudent on Mar 1, 2009 7:15 PM EST up reply actions
i thought it was pretty obvious that it was more of a shot at pacquiao than PBF
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Mar 1, 2009 6:30 PM EST reply actions
What for? What Marquez has to brag about? Hasn’t he already kissed the canvass 4x? Compare the last 2 fights of Pacquiao and Marquez, the former won every single round unscathed leading to brutal knockout or submission despite the fact he climbed two weight class, while Marquez looked beaten up fighting at 135 before winning by KO. Pacquiao improved tremendously utilizing multi-dimensional skills an indication that he can be a threat to the likes of PBF and Mosley if given a chance to square-off. I believed that Marquez is better opponent to Pac than Hatton, but I see the same result of the previous 2 fights this time around Pac will inflict a greater damage if not put an exclamation point to Marquez’ career.
Unscathed or not, TKOing David Diaz and a shot-looking ODLH is not as impressive as TKOing Casamayor and Juan Diaz.
by boxingstudent on Mar 1, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions
What’s not impressive? Those guys cannot even score a single round attributable to the fact that Pac can be as slick as he can be. Did they last 12 rounds? Marquez of course got into 12 grueling rounds with Pac but with 4 knockdowns.
Unscathed? Wasn’t manny cut in the second fight? Manny is not considered a “slick” boxer, he’s a former brawler, a power puncher that can box. He has imporved his boxing ability and he is a lot better, but his first instinct is to fight. Slick would be like PBF or floyd mayweather, guys who are just very smooth and don’t get hit alot and a little flamboyant and showy. ALso it’s easy for manny to not lookg beaten up as a top lightweight would prove more challeng eto him than his past two challenges. Pac is a great fighter, but lay off his nuts.
There is no way he is a threat to Mosely of Floyd
Either one of them are way to skilled for him and Mosley would hit him harder then he has ever been hit. If he fought Marquez again I think it would be the same as the first two fights. Great action that could be scored either way. I see him going 1-2 at the best and 0-3 at the worst if he fought those 3 guys. I really don’t see him winning against Hatton for that matter, either.
The issue with Oscar was supposedly trigger probelms. Freddie Roach was 100% right that Oscar couldn’t get his punches off anymore. I don’t see that as a problem with Shane or Floyd, moreso Shane.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
That is what I was trying to get at.
Also I don’t think experts picked DLH because he was the more skilled guy. They picked him bc he was the bigger guy, supposedly. Like SC said Roach was right when he said Oscar couldn’t pull the trigger.
easy to look ‘multi-dimensional’ and tremendously improved against a never was and a has-been. Juan Diaz came to fight and laid it on the line. David Diaz is a step above a club fighter and DLH was completely done before the first bell of the Pac fight. Marquez’s highlight reel upper-cut KO of Juan Diaz is far more impressive to me than Pac ‘winning every round’ against a spent fighter and a club fighter.
As far as kissing the canvas 4x, so what? He got up, kept fighting, won rounds, won the second fight according to me, and certainly rocked Pac in the process.
Pac’s great. I mean great. But so is Marquez. I don’t view one above the other at this point. I really want to see #3.
you will see a better chance of a 3rd fight between the two if Marquez will not prize himself out again, and even greater chance you will see to add Marquez to your list of spent fighters…
I think he's referring to the immediate rematch after the first fight
Where Marquez turned down something like $800k to rematch Pacquiao, only to get stuck fighting Chris John in Indonesia for $30,000 instead.
It was boneheaded business advice from Nacho, who a number of JMM fans still somehow defend that he was right to turn it down because Arum was shortchanging him.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
it was debatable
And Morales was cooked. Really good fight, though.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 2, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions
So what??
Easy to dismiss DLH as a has been, though I bet you didn’t call him a has been when Mayweather fought him. Mayweather didn’t do nearly as well as Pac did. And kissing the canvas four times is big to anyone who knows anything about boxing. It tells me that JMM had better win the other rounds big to even get close to winning the fight-did he do it? No way. If JMM wants to win vs Pac, he should stop visiting the canvas…
Easy to dismiss DLH as a has been, though I bet you didn’t call him a has been when Mayweather fought him.
That was a year and a half prior. I didn’t call him a has-been when Bernard Hopkins beat him, either. He’s a has-been. HE calls himself a has-been (not in so many words).
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
I think you’re overlooking that Marquez fought better fighters (David Diaz is just not very good and Oscar looked shot — there’s no way people can’t see that Oscar looked shot, and this is not about defending Pacquiao, who is the best fighter in the sport right now).
BUT, I have said before that I get the feeling if Pacquiao and Marquez fight again it will be Pacquiao decisively. I want to see it because you never know and they are 1-2 in boxing right now. But I can definitely see the younger, stronger Pacquiao knocking out Marquez in a third go-’round.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
Look, I’ll be the first to admit that JMM is definitely the more skilled fighter between the two. Perhaps that is why he and JMM fans keep insisting that he couldn’t possibly be beaten by Pacquiao. But it gets irritating when he won’t give Pac his due and all his crying just sounds like sour grapes. Cue the violins…
I've never heard it as crying
He thinks he won the fights, both of which were close. He wants to fight him again. I don’t think calling out the top dog is a bad thing ever, particularly when you actually intend to fight him.
At this point I actually think the gap in their boxing skills is pretty negligible; Marquez has brawled more as he’s gotten older and Pacquiao boxes more now, and he’s very well-rounded. They make great fights with one another because their styles mesh perfectly and they both fight hungry. Since the second fight with Morales, the only guy to give Pacquiao a test has been Marquez.
Marquez has also never “insisted” that he “couldn’t possibly” be beaten by Pacquiao, and no one else with a brain has either. In their second fight Marquez conceded a lot in the contract supposedly to be able to get the fight done. Manny wanted to fight for the biggest money and probably could’ve found someone else. Marquez backed off of things a lot of guys wouldn’t have to fight the best guy in the division.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 2, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
Mayweather won't fight Cotto , Mosely or Williams
You can talk all you want on how great floyd is but the truth of the matter is He won’t fight guys that can beat him thats why in my opinion He ain’t that great or smart , THe truth of the matter is Pacman won the 1st fight and JMM won the 2nd fight so I think the trilogy will HAPPEN as long as Mayweather decides to fight Pacman because this is the only money fight that makes sense If Pacman defeats Hatton if Hatton wins then you have a
rematch of Hatton vs Mayweather and the Pacman vs JMM trilogy but I feel it will be Pacman vs Mayweather then maybe Pacman vs JMM providing that JMM continues winning maybe JMM vs Moseley
it's not an uncommon opinion
That Floyd won’t take risks. Arum has it, Oscar has it, and to a degree I have it. As much as I do greatly admire Floyd’s skills, I can’t imagine him handling defeat very well.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
I don't usually chime in on this argument
But this line got me to thinking…
No one skillfully avoids getting hit like Floyd Mayweather.
Especially, it would seem, from legit top-ten welters. The fact is, I’ve never seen Floyd absorb a world class welterweight punch, because he’s never been in against a world class welter. And whether he fights Manny or JMM there or not, that will still be the case. So far, Floyd will go down as a great lightweight, but for me the book is still out on him at 140 lbs and above.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
desperate pride
where as to know that losing strucked more pride of being a great as what he think of himself…that’s what JMM feels to Pacman.Fighting-wise,JMM is still not impressive even as he ducked Juan Diaz.He still a lousy boxer for me…he can only use his skill to those who can hurt him.Why fighting a distance with Pacman,huh?Marquez? because it’s hurt when you recieved that blows,even Dela Hoya cannot accept the fact.All of you are done…finished…period
by left-handed Kreed on Mar 1, 2009 11:35 PM EST reply actions
you have no idea what you're talking about
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 2, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
desperated pride 2
JMM can only used his skills to those who can’t hurt him……but not to PACMAN
by left-handed Kreed on Mar 1, 2009 11:37 PM EST reply actions
haha… actually Juan Diaz DID hurt hit, and he can hurt pacman, tho i’m not sure if juan diaz can beat pacman. also, pple keep riding JMM for getting knocked down in the past, but manny’s been knocked out too by lighter guys in the past, let’s not forget.
I think it was a good call from marquez. He wants Pac and he wouldn’t say no to Floyd plus lets more people know he got balls. Even people looking up Mayweather on youtube might come across Marquez clip now and become a fan (i know that happened with me with some boxers).
Between Pac and Mayweather i would go with Pac cause of still being active plus his natural foot speed to get in and out, Floyd likes to roll off the shot in the pocket and with a big lay off his timing could be out abit with Pac bouncing around.
Marquez – Pac 3 would be a great fight but i wonder what weight. Pac dont seem to want to come down while there money to be made. Maybe a loss might want him to come down but then less money with marquez 3. I think Pac wins at light weight by UD and would knock out Marquez at anything heigher.
yeah I think it’s a good point about the weight here. Where would they fight #3? The higher they go, I think it favors Pac more.
140
Pacquiao has no intention of going back to 135. Marquez has said he’ll fight Pacquiao at heavyweight.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 2, 2009 12:18 AM EST up reply actions
That woud be a funny looking fight.
They would look like mini James Toneys fighting at heavyweight.
it’s like 4d boxing, my fave boxing game of all time, the guys all bulked up and short and slow… hahaha… they could fight at that weight techincally if they were overweight and outta shape right? hahaha…
Marquez is good but Pacquiao is a little bit better
JMM cannot escape the shadow of Pacquiao, he is so desperate of a Pacman rematch. He must admit to himself that he simply loss his last fight with the great Pacquiao. But in fairness JMM is a very very good boxer and a great one as well it’s just that he always comes short everytime he fights with PAC.
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Am I the only one who doesn't think PBF will ever fight again?
And I don’t think it’s because he doesn’t want to. I think it’s because he’s a coward. He won’t fight anybody that can beat him and nobody wants to watch him fight somebody he’s expected to dismantle. Plus, I don’t think PBF wants an easy opponent either because he knows that it’d be a knock to his legacy. I think his attitude lends itself to retirement. Though I’d love for him to unretire and lose to just about anybody. I can’t stand the guy…
A big fight like Saturday’s appears to have drawn the crazies out of the wood-work. I haven’t seen so much wacky first time usage ever at this site. I am surprised that hardcore Pac-backers seem to take such offense to JMM being in their man’s class.
I'm not saying this to "slam" anyone
But there are a lot of nationalistic fans in boxing who like their guy and really don’t like anyone else, and if their guy retired, they wouldn’t really watch boxing at all.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 2, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
The Challenge
“Instead of going down, we’ll go up to 140 perhaps 147 to challenge Mayweather since Pacquiao doesn’t want to face me anymore. I am going to challenge the best pound for pound which is Mayweather.”
Yeah, a bit of mouth flurries to attack the man called the Pac-man. But if he truly goes up… there is some one that has an open slot for a hmm umm I don’t know June 13 match up. Now as much as I would love to see him against Clottey, what a match up will it be if this turns out… Cotto-Marquez.
"Count on us! We sponsored Margarito for several years." - CEMEX
I love Cotto so I’m pretty biased on this one. I’ve got Cotto KOing both JMM and Pac if it happens in 2009. Could be wrong, would really like to see it.
me too
Marquez takes too many shots. Cotto would ravage him, though JMM would make a fight of it.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by Scott Christ on Mar 2, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
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