Which Boxer Most Needs to Retire? For Good.
by Matt Miller on Mar 22, 2009 2:23 AM EDT
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Tonight's fight got me thinking about boxers who have overextended their careers. There's quite a litany of aging greats who could qualify for such a list. I've narrowed this one down to five. I've excluded fighters like Margarito and Larios who are already barred from fighting in the U.S.
So let's say the boxing Gods have granted you the ability to permanently retire any one boxer. Who would you choose?
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All of them, really, but the obvious choice for most necessary has gotta be Holyfield, doesn’t it? The man is not right.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by SC on Mar 22, 2009 2:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
took the words out of my keyboard. the man is pretty f’ing close to destroying his brain completely
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Mar 22, 2009 3:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barrera, Jones, and De La Hoya
all should, but its gotta be Holyfield. he cant even prove anything w/ tha shape tha heavyweight class is in right now. winning a title would mean nothing
by TitanFan2K on Mar 22, 2009 5:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
All of them, except maybe Toney.
Toney doesn’t seem tobetaking any damage, even if he is useless.
You could also add to the list-
Erik Morales (who is apparently looking for another fight, and really shouldn’t….)
Danny Williams (Just needs to pack it in now, he is becoming a joke)
Matt Skelton (I like the guy, I like his balls, but he is the wrong side of 40, and needs to find another career especially after getting stopped for the first time in his career.)
Audley Harrison (No explanation needed there. Fair to say that all those times he said he would ‘definitely’ be heavyweight champion of the world, he was wrong…)
Michael Sprott. (Enough said)
So, the end of the current British heavyweight era, (sorry to those who don’t remember it… it wasn’t really that eventful… lol), but also I think Bernard Hopkins should be thinking about this too. He looked unreal against Pavlik, but I do wonder when the time will come for him, and since he is now moving up the weights he could really take some damage if he gets old in the ring. For all the pantomime villain stuff, I don’t think there are many people who would actually tlike to see Hopkins get hurt. Whatever his result against Adamek, I hope he packs it in afterwards. That said, like SC stated after the Pavlik fight, I will NEVER doubt Hopkins again, and I certainly won’t bet against him in any fight he does take on.
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Mar 22, 2009 6:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Holyfield, no doubt
It just feels wrong to watch a man that’s been boxing professionally since before I was born continue to go at it.
I also wish Felix Trinidad hanged em’ up for good. All the good things he had going for himself in the ring are long gone, and his father being adamant about fighting over 170 isn’t helping any.
by keyz on Mar 22, 2009 9:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Trinidad
Great shout.
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Mar 22, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holyfield
I’m all about guys doing what they love, but when health becomes an issue, someone needs to stop them. That’s why I chose Holyfield. There are times when he looks and sounds like Holyfield, and then there are times when he doesn’t.
by roheblius on Mar 22, 2009 1:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree....
When Tiger Woods prolongs his career to the point that he can’t win any more, he won’t have people punching him in the head while he tries to ‘enjoy’ it…
I would like to see Holyfield enjoy a long, hopefully prosperous retirement, and at the moment that looks like a pipe dream.
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Mar 22, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I say Holyfield. It hard to listen to him speak. He has been thru so many wars and absorbed so much punishment, that he just needs to hang them up.
I also like to mention Tito. He has looked like crap runned over in his last fights. I mean, I am no fitness guru, but when a fighter looks in worse shape than me… he needs to retire.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Mar 22, 2009 3:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I voted for Holyfield but
I just came back to this when I seen Yory Boy Campas lost again. He has lost 4 of his last 5 and has almost 110 fighjs, 106 to be exact. Also he is not exactly fighting exclusively tomato cans like Roy. Some of the fighters he has fought in his last 15 fights are Saul Roman, John Duddy, Matt Vanda, Eromosele Albert, and Noberto Bravo (which he beat all others were loses). He lost last night to a guy that was 10-0. Definatly time for him to hang them up. He is 37 but has been a pro for 22 years and that is way to many punches to the head.
by TXroyal on Mar 22, 2009 3:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I voted Toney
Mostly because I don’t want to see him wasting airwaves that could be spent on better boxers, and because I just hate him with a passion as a human being, but Holyfield and Hearns both just really need to stay retired for the sakes of their brains.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 22, 2009 4:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How about Tommy Hearns?
Since, it appears, rumors of his demise were grossly exagerrated?
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 22, 2009 5:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What was the name of that guy that got 'jobbed'....
when he fought Julio Cesar Chavez? Meldrick, or something similar? He is still fighting, too, and needs to jack it in. I can’t understand a word he saysnow, hate to think of what he’ll be like in a few years.
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Mar 22, 2009 5:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Meldrick Taylor
he’s been done for years, and is really f’ed at this point.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 22, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way
He can’t be still fighting. It’s not possible. I saw him a few years back in Philly and he is practically a vegetable, and whatever brains he has left have been washed by a wacko religious cult that has him believing he is Jewish.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 22, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Damn. Sad, but a colorful story nonetheless.
by Matt Miller on Mar 22, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's worse than I can explain
He got sucked into one of those Manson sort of cults, where the things they say are so strange your brain pretty much has to be a milkshake to go along with it. You will see some of the same sort of cults set up in Union Square this summer… the heat brings out the popcorn.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 23, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I used to see them hanging out in the parking lots of Grateful Dead concerts after shows. Different “milkshakes” but the same vultures looking for them.
by Matt Miller on Mar 23, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah this is Grateful Dead bad and then some. Seriously, it’ not even funny how far gone he is, and this is coming from someone who saw the whole MOVE fiasco firsthand. It’s a melted brain sort of non-religion, and it makes me mad because I know that the “gurus” or “priests” or whatever in it saw someone who was helpless and went for his throat. I cannot tell you how pissed I get even thinking about the Taylor situation man.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 23, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did NOT get "jobbed"
Absolutely not. Mel’s brains were pudding after that fight even with the “premature stoppage.” That’s B.S. and Steele took it on the chin for YEARS for no good reason for that call. It was the right call. JCC broke every bone in Mel’s face. He was laid up in the hospital for weeks afterwards.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 22, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there were 3 seconds in that fight. Steele deserved to take it on the chin for years because of the strange stoppage and his relationship with JCC and management. Taylor was standing straight up, had eye contact with the ref. Regardless of whether Taylor got ‘jobbed’, which implies corruption, it was a bad stoppage. Speculation as to why a bad stoppage occurred is legitimate especially considering the relationships.
It wasn’t the right call. I don’t think Steele was induced by corruption. But speculation didn’t come from ‘no good reason’. There were good reasons. Taylor is a tragedy. And part of his tragedy is for all his effort he never held got to wear the belt he won.
by lcollins1 on Mar 22, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. We will disagree amicably, but no. One more punch would have done him in. Watch that fight again if you can bear it. Mel was “looking at Steele?” Yeah, okay. Did you get a look at his eyes? And that was just over the TV… Steele was looing right into those watery graves. Taylor didn’t respond to Steele’s questions. Instead he looked around, as if he was confused about what was going on. You know what? He was consfused about what was going on. He remains confused about what’s going on to this very day. Boy I wish some of the sore bettors and JCC bashers who were out to hang Steele could get a look at mel now. I really do. They would feel ashamed of themselves.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 22, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by the way, I’m not looking to drag this thread down the bottomless pit of “Taylor-Chavez.” Just don’t tell me I’m wrong like I didn’t see the fight or that I’m a JCC fanatic. Taylor and Chavez were both two of my favorite fighters at the time… that fight was HUGE for me, and every second is etched in my memory. I picked Mel to win that fight, and he almost proved me right. But he is a tragic tale these days, and Steel got a bum wrap for trying to save what was left of the young man.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 22, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You make the connection between Taylor’s brain damage and the JCC fight as if that were the only brain trauma he suffered. How many years did he go on to fight? 10 maybe? Looking at Meldrich now is not indicative of that fight only, it’s a few bricks in the wall. Pointing to Taylor now is like pointing to people who watched Larry Holmes beat up Ali and saying “man if that fight had been stopped sooner, Ali would be a normal man”. No he woulnd’t, and neither would Taylor.
Taylor got up immediately, made eye contact and looked to his corner. He didn’t wobble on the way up. His reaction to the stoppage was immediate frustration and lack of belief.
I don’t know your experience with ‘sore bettors and JCC bashers’ but I continue to think he deserved a chance to finish that fight. I don’t think your a JCC fanatic, and I believe you watched the fight, but I do think it was a bad stoppage.
I’m done
by lcollins1 on Mar 22, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taylor was completely shot after that fight
And he wasn’t beforehand. Whether he continued to suffer damage because that fight made him shot is irrelevant; you can certainly point to that single day in his life that completely turned around what was happening.
I also tend to think it was a bad stoppage. He wasn’t out on his feet and there were a few seconds left. If that was the concern, he should have stopped the fight sooner.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Mar 22, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“and looked to his corner…” Wonderful. Well, I guess that settles that. Steele asked him what day it was and he looked to his corner. Maybe they knew.
It’s not the referee’s job to know how many seconds are left in a round. It’s his job to proctect the fighters, particularly when they are in trouble. Taylor was in deep trouble. Anyone with eyes could see that. The Ali analogy serves your argument poorly, if not oppositely. As with Ali, pugilistic dementia (or “punch-drunkeness”) DOES NOT establish itself immediately after the injury. It typically takes several years for the symptoms to fully present themselves…. look it up. With Taylor, it took approximately five fights before you looked at him and said “Whoa, something isn’t right.” That’s the way it works.
As for my experience with “sore bettors and JCC bashers”, it’s grueling to listen to some of those blowhards talk about Steele’s decision knowing full well that they’ve never had another man’s life in their hands. There’s a lot of shocking ignorance about this fight, and as far as “the dark side of boxing” is concerned, it’s the raging morons who castigated Steele in the aftermath who qualified, not Steele himself.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 22, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chavez VS Taylor HBO Legendary Nights
I think everyone should give a look at the HBO recap…
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFQ2oJ3asaM
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dylwo0CPKKw
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4fkqBvP244
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Mar 22, 2009 10:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Most of us don't need to
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 22, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i haven’t seen it, and there’s no need to snap at someone for posting a link. I’m interested in seeing it sometime this week. Thanks Zocalo. Guys, chill out, no one is saying the other is ignorant, everyone’s got their dispositions.
by cylee1180 on Mar 23, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey no disrespect. if this fight is before someone’s time, then I encourage them to watch it. I don’t need to watch it ever again. It’s one of those “permanent” fights for me where I’ll never forget a round of it.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 23, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
awesome man, yeah im only familiar with fighters in Muhammad Ali’s era, the huges ones in the 80’s, and pple from the mid 90’s up, so i’d be happy to watch it! awsome you were that boxing crazy. Yeah, before youtube came out, and then later boxingscene’s video trading block, i had never seen one recent fight since a PPV outing at someone’s apartment with trinidad vs. de la hoya 10 years ago. then youtube came a long and ifound out what i been missing thru all the 90’s! thanks for noting this fight! Definitely high on my queue!
by cylee1180 on Mar 23, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woah! that’s one of the most brutal fights i ever seen! now i gotta see the whole thing! downloading it this week! meldrick taylor looked slick as hell tho! :) pc!
by cylee1180 on Mar 23, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
slick, fast , angles, hand speed, good head movement… awesome!
by cylee1180 on Mar 23, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can think whatever you want… but Taylor got a beating that few fighters have ever gotten. It was a miracle that he got up. His face was full or fractures, pissing out blood.
Lets forget if it was a 12th round where he was stopped… if it was a 10th or 11th round, it wouldn’t be such a big deal. The thing is that it was the 12th round… and you know what… he should have not been stopped.
I will tell you guys a personal story. This fight was the first fight I remember seeing. I remember my entire family seeing it. There was 40 people at my house. I remember that everyone went apeshit when Chavez stopped him. It was the fight that made me a fight fan. I was just a little kid but that fight ingrained the boxing culture on me.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Mar 22, 2009 10:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OK
Since everyone is getting personal now, let me.
I was born and raised in Philadelphia. Rocky town, on 7th and Federal, right around the corner from Geno’s and Pat’s. When I was a kid in the 70’s- early 80s , in the neighborhood I was in if you didn’t box you might as well have worn lipstick and a dress (for me it was Joe Hand’s gym, which was new when I was a kid but is still there today). Anyway, I loved Philly fighters, and my grandfather and I were regular’s at the Blue Horizon. I ate drank and slept boxing from the time I was seven years old, and all Philly fighters were close to my heart. I’ve had dudes even on this website (which, for my money, attracts a better caliber of fan) call me out for being a Bernard Hopkins fan. Well all I can say is that s0ome things you carry with you.
I was a big Meldrick Taylor fan. I was there in person when he fought McGirt for the IBF strap, and I just knew he was destined to be a champion. Like a lot of guys, I was crying ‘foul’ that night that Chavez stopped him, and looking for someone to blame. The morning after, in the cold light of day, I watched the fight again with my buddy Jay Adams and KNEW that Steele did his job. But there was a tidal wave of emotional nonsense about the call, and the usual suspects rode it as far as it could go, spinning out more conspiracy theories than an Oliver Stone movie marathon. The fact that it still happens to this day makes me a little pissed off. I want every conspiracy theory guy to meet Meldrick Taylor face to face and shake his hand and try to carry on a conversation with him. Then maybe those guys will have their cold light of day.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 22, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the last few sentences basically sum it up for me. after i saw that legendary nights “epsiode” which they featured a clip of taylor talking i was horrified. JCC destroyed him, and i have no doubt in my mind the stoppage was the right decision. there were two – three seconds on the clock when steele counted to 8, and JCC was right there waiting to get another shot in. if it had not been stopped at least one more horrific shot would have gotten in there and who knows what wouldve happened
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on Mar 23, 2009 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tell you what...
I can see your point over the whole ‘go shake his hand’ thing.
But I have to say, I bet you wouldn’t have had the balls to stand in front of him straight after the fight and tell him the stoppage was sound. He had enough in him to last the three seconds, easy, as can be seen from his immediate reaction after the ref waved it off.
Also, the ref hasn’t got to count the seconds every round, the BIG RED LIGHT was flashing right behind Taylor, showing that there were less than 10 seconds left. JCC should have been in the opposite corner, meaning that it would have taken him more than the time left in the round to get to Taylor.
There was no way Taylor shouldn’t have been allowed to finish the fight, and this indignant stuff you are spouting about how it was ‘personal’ to you, well it’s wasted on me, for one. It was a hell of a lot more personal to Taylor, and it was a case of him being robbed, in my opinion.
3 seconds away from holding his world title belt after the fight.
3 seconds away.
He had fought for 12 rounds, and the ref couldn’t give him the respect to let him stay in for 3 seconds, in a World Title fight, a career defining moment, the biggest 3 seconds of his life.
I think it was a really bad stoppage, and that’s not because it is personal to me…. It’s just because it was.
End.
Does the fact a boxer doesn't switch weight divisions during their career detract from their overall P4P ranking?
Cos I'd take Hagler over most heavies in history, P4P, and also over "6 weight world champion" Oscar De La Hoya, and Marvellous Marvin never really messed about with his weight, did he?
by Chaos100 on Mar 23, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But I have to say, I bet you wouldn’t have had the balls to stand in front of him straight after the fight and tell him the stoppage was sound. He had enough in him to last the three seconds, easy, as can be seen from his immediate reaction after the ref waved it off.
Mel was carted straight outof the ring and into the hospital, where he had a very long stay. And I don’t care if “this personal stuff I was spouting” was “wasted on you” because it wasn’t for you. I don’t know you or care what you think, because you sound silly talking about “three seconds…. three seconds away.” He was three punches away from a coma. Talking about “Steele robbed him.” Nonsense.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Mar 23, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For whats its worth..
I watched it live all those years ago. I had Meldrick a good few rounds ahead and at the time the ending was so sensational i was in shock at what happened. Watched it again many times since and i thought Steele made the right call. Taylor was in a world of shit back end of that fight. Its one of those things…If Steele let him go on MaybeTaylor would of survived, Maybe Steele should of stopped the count and pushed Chavez back to a neutral corner as he was walking towards the corner where Taylor was dropped during the count. Maybes and what ifs..
Steele took a lot of shit for years for this one as you all know. The Tyson-Rudduck Stoppage a year later was worse…
As for the guys who go on too long i would pick all of the above. Esp Holyfield and ill stick our great Audley Harrison in there.
Mainstream is brought to you ..
Underground you got to go there...
by dinkman on Mar 23, 2009 4:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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