Mercer and Sylvia will box in a cage
by SC on Apr 13, 2009 7:57 AM EDT
in News Analysis
43 comments
You might have heard recently that the New Jersey State Athletic Commission denied sanctioning for a boxing match between 47-year old Ray Mercer and former UFC heavyweight champ Tim Sylvia. But don't worry. The fight will go on.
In a cage.
They're going to box in a cage.
They're going to box in a cage in Birmingham, Alabama.
Said shyster promoter Monte Cox:
"It just makes sense on so many levels, and it adds another twist to the main event," Cox stated in reference to the cage.
1. It makes sense only on the level that the rest of the show is MMA and thus held in the cage, and it would be dumb to tear down the cage and put up a ring for one lame fight. On NO OTHER LEVEL does this fight make sense.
2. It doesn't add a twist. This is the dumbest way possible to phrase it.
More from MMA Junkie:
Alabama does not have a regulatory commission to sanction the fight, but as MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com) recently reported, Cox insisted the NJSAC's decision was not the reason for selecting the new locale. The longtime promoter instead said a "big sponsor" was the reason for the change.
Sylvia, meanwhile, wants to prove that his stand-up is just as good as any boxer's, and he's hopeful he could launch a second career with a strong showing over his veteran opponent.
Yeah, he's going with "big sponsor" for moving this fight from Atlantic City to Birmingham. It had nothing to do with New Jersey being like, "Please get the hell out of our offices and do not ever ask us for something this dumb again. Thanks." No. No, of course not. It's a "big sponsor."
Sylvia, meanwhile, is delusional. Fast forward to about 4:30 for some Sylvia stand-up:
I'm certainly not saying that any one MMA fight shows us what Tim will be like as a boxer, but it seems a BIT optimistic to think you're going to make a career out of boxing if that's what happens to you against Fedor, you know what I mean?
I'm not saying he's lying, either. I'm sure he does want to prove his stand-up is as good as anybody's. I want to prove I have abs like Usher. I can't, though.
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Didn't Tommy Morrison already do this?
He was supposed to have a MMA fight but at the last minute changed it to a MMA fight with no take down, kicks, knees or elbows. I want to see Tim get buzzed forget he is in a boxing match and round house kick him in the head. That would be the only scenario that I would watch this on youtube.
by TXroyal on Apr 13, 2009 8:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
no
This was never an MMA fight. It’s always been boxing. It’s just that it wasn’t supposed to be in a cage. Or in Alabama. But that’s what “a big sponsor” does for you.
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by SC on Apr 13, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know I meant boxing in a ring.
I was being half sarcastic. I would still like to see Tim kick or knee him though. Sorry for not stating better that I was kidding.
by TXroyal on Apr 13, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They were "modified Muay Thai rules" fights
knees were allowed, and Tommy threw a couple of half-assed knees in there.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Apr 13, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I confess that I probably know about as much about MMA as the Olsen Twins, but are these the sort of co-promotions we can expect? Jones vs. Sheika, BJ Flores, and old Ray Mercer fighting inside a cage? Even with the legendary “turf-i-ness” of the major boxing promoters it seems that not only has nobody figured out how how to do this right, but they are almost actively trying to damage any future possibility of doing it right. Or maybe I’m missing better trends somewhere.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Apr 13, 2009 10:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How about they lower a cage from the rafters WWF style
that way boxers have a ring and MMA fighters have a cage. I highly doubt anyone ever puts on a show with top ranked boxers and MMA fighters. There are many reasons for this. 1 not enough of a fan crossover, boxing guys will boo the floor fighting and MMA will boo the repeated clinching and jabs. 2 the pay scale is way different. UFC guys have been saying for a long time that they do not get paid enough and some of the top guys in boxing will cherry pick opponents with no hope of winning and get paid multi-millions to do so. 3 the only people that try to put on these shows seem to pick over the hill boxers or MMA guys to put in the main event. You can not draw a huge crowd doing this.
by TXroyal on Apr 13, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MMA can be fought in the ring. Just legthen the apron area a couple feet. I don’t understand why that’s hard.
As to your third point. The only one I’ve seen pull off a sucessful mixed card was Fernando Vargas. All the rest are doing mixed cards for money more then combat sports.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
by RoyalB on Apr 13, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
over the hill or not, Mercer won a gold medal. his basics will be more than enough to punish Sylvia.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei.
http://theworldsoldestsport.blogspot.com/
by theworldsoldestsport on Apr 13, 2009 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He has forgotten more things than Sylvia will ever know…
Sylvia will be surprised with the difference between the tiny ass 4 ounce gloves and the 10 ounce gloves.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Apr 13, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is any one really interested in watching this?
I wouldnt even want to see this guy in an MMA fight, let alone box. Boxers who are fit and athletic are much more fun to watch than fat guys throwing wild hooks and panting for air. Same is true for MMA with guys like Anderson the Spider Silva and GSP.
Boxing is an art form, much like BJJ is to MMA fans where its so technical, full of counters with one thing setting up the next. The “stand up” game in MMA has been bastardized with a squared off stance to prevent someone from shooting on you, so from the get-go, its f’ed 90 degrees to the left. That takes about a foot off your reach. To visualize how this messed you up, think of a right hook as trying to hit a baseball, you want to turn on the balls of your feet and transfer the power through rotation. Now think about trying to hit a home run from a squared off bunting stance. Dumb.
by ryanwk628 on Apr 13, 2009 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
AAHHH...
The squared stance lends itself to more accurate kicks and knees. So yeah, you sacrifice punching power, you get a better weapon in the deal.
Also, if you can confound and frustrate your opponent, it’ll be easier to slip into a boxing stance once in a while.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
by RoyalB on Apr 13, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
That’s not at all what he was saying, first of all. He was talking about the fact that an “MMA” stance is f’ed for punching… which is flat out obvious.
Is this “Tim Sylvia” guy supposed to be some sort of elite competitor? Why is he matched against a nearly 50-year old man? Could it be that MMA promoters have figured out what lifelong boxing fans have always known: MMA pros are largely inferior fighters with less experience, less experienced trainers less useful sparring regimines and shorter careers than the average game-cock?
This fight is a travesty and a half, but the more I think about it, the more I hope Ray Mercer discovers the fountain of youth and clobbers this punk. Sylvia doesn’t have much to gain by winning, but Ray Mercer can do a service to both sports by KHTFO.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Apr 13, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
wow. you will draw some shit for these comments.
Boxing is and will continue to be an increasingly important factor in MMA, especially at the highest level. What happens when you get two elite wrestlers/Jiu Jitsu players on the ground? – Not much in the way of damage usually. What happens when you get two elite boxers in the ring? Many things could and do happen. Increasingly, MMA title fights wind up as ‘bad boxing’ between two guys that can’t hurt each other on the ground.
What pisses me off is that people look at the current state of MMA as if it incorporates a high level of boxing. It doesn’t. The best boxer in MMA is a guy named Marcus Davis. Look him up on boxrec. He’s been very successful plying boxing in the MMA world. He wasn’t even a B- boxer. Conversely, some of the best practitioners in the world from wrestling, BJJ, and Muay Thai are in MMA because there’s no where else to go.
What I think will happen is that to a certain unfortunate extent, pro boxing’s financial structure will succumb to the corporate controlled perspective that is MMA, then you will have truly elite boxers, or at least better than B- boxers, who have a very significant impact on that sport. Hope it doesn’t happen, but I think it will.
by lcollins1 on Apr 14, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, Tim Sylvia has been a top 10 HW in MMA and will more than likely get shit-kicked by the Denny’s discount version of Ray Mercer.
by lcollins1 on Apr 14, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure what you mean by “I’ll draw some serious shit.” From who? There’s no one on earth who can argue that Sylvia-Mercer is anything but a sham… NOT EVEN IN JERSEY APPARENTLY!
A while back, an old beat-up Riddick Bowe was contemplating an MMA career, probably because he saw the same things I did: callow middle-class guys who had no idea how to establish a pace, were clueless on working out distance — even with “flying knees” and whatnot — and when they were hit appeared to be taking real shots for the first time… after all not a lot to be gained from taking a half-speed knee to the face in sparring practice.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Apr 14, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
not shit related to this fight specifically, but because of your overall analysis of MMA. This statement:
“MMA pros are largely inferior fighters with less experience, less experienced trainers less useful sparring regimines and shorter careers than the average game-cock?”
That’s gotta be qualified. Inferior fighters how? Because they’re not on the ground, and that is certainly a relevant aspect to ‘fighting’ but not boxing. And the part about ‘shorter careers’, I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I don’t think there’s any evidence to that effect.
I’m a boxing fan. I agree with most of what you said, but some if it is just inaccurate.
by lcollins1 on Apr 14, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
If a guy has the potential to be a top fighter in both sports, he focuses on boxing because of the higher potential earnings.
by ryanwk628 on Apr 14, 2009 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are exceptions, though. Fedor, for example, strikes me as someone who does MMA because he really loves Sambo, not because he’s not good enough to box.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
by Matt Miller on Apr 15, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes many of them do look like they’ve been hit for the first time. The worst is when I hear an MMA commentator say “[fighter X] has pro boxing experience!” as meaning the guy is a dangerous boxer. I have amateur experience, but even if I didn’t, I could get some pro boxing experience by the end of the week. Sure doesn’t mean I have a damn bit of skill.
by lcollins1 on Apr 14, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well let's not forget Riddick Bowe is also a few fries short of a Happy Meal
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by SC on Apr 14, 2009 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could it be that MMA promoters have figured out what lifelong boxing fans have always known: MMA pros are largely inferior fighters with less experience, less experienced trainers less useful sparring regimines and shorter careers than the average game-cock?
Please look up the background of some of these fighters before you make this statement again.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
by RoyalB on Apr 14, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks MMA guy
I suppose “Wikipedia” would be the place to “look.” Probably not a lot of real ink on this stuff.
I certainly remember the original UFC, with Hoyce Gracie and 700 pound “Sumo Wrestlers” from Camden. It’s not an exaggeration that I have gym socks older than this sport (although admittedy, I should probably throw those out). I ’m not saying that there are “no” good fighters in that tradition, but the class of fighters certainly seems a big step lower, and when you compare world-class boxers with 80 plus amateur fights before their pro career even begins to MMA fighters, the level of experience is not remotely comparable in my opinion.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Apr 14, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dude, I know your not that old, but you sound exactly my Dad: ‘not a lot of real ink on this stuff’ – Ha.
The experience/pedigree thing is generally dead on true IMO.
by lcollins1 on Apr 14, 2009 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey
When I was a teenager, the most hi-tech thing was a beeper. It’s true I don’t give a lot of credence to stuff I find online, unless I can back it up otherwise, boxing included. Not enough editorial or peer oversight.
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Apr 14, 2009 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't say I completely agree with the second line of the middle paragraph
There’s just a big difference in what they need to train in and what they need to learn. Boxing requires a narrower skill set than MMA, and if you dedicate the same amount of time to each, the boxer will be better at boxing than the MMA fighter will be at any one discipline within MMA, but it’s MIXED martial arts, that should be expected. Also, there isn’t a generation of people who have been practicing MMA since they were 10. MMA will catch up significantly once you start seeing more of that. But of course MMA isn’t as developed as boxing. Boxing as we know it has been around for over a hundred years. Modern MMA is only about 15 years old. Anyone who says there isn’t an experience/development gap between the two is fooling themselves.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Apr 14, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a generation. His name is Georges St. Pierre. He has an increasingly impressive respect for boxing and uses it well in his fights. Does shit few others do, like throw a double-jab and then either a left hook or something with the right.
I think an important factor is that most MMA gyms teach boxing like they teach BJJ: a prodigious, step by step instruction. Step 1: throw a jab. Step 2: throw a right hand. Step 3: bring both hands back to face. Not the way to learn the game at all.
But, as you said, MMA’s still in flux and they’ll get better at it. But to say that MMA differs fundamentally in “what they need to train in and what they need to learn” just ain’t true. The trend is towards better and more realistic boxing instruction and training. Frank Mir, Anderson Silva, Andrei Arlovski(til the brain-dead flying knee) have gravitated towards legit boxing and boxing coaches. See Freddie Roach.
by lcollins1 on Apr 14, 2009 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because there are two or three guys who grew up with it
Doesn’t mean that you have the same kind of level as you have in boxing, where even most of the journeymen were boxing long before they turned pro.
Don’t be silly in saying that MMA fighters don’t need to train differently than boxers. One or two MMA fighters have taken on boxing coaches, which is fine for motivation and roadwork, but Freddie Roach is never going to teach someone how to do floor work, and if he just trains them to move and throw like a normal boxer, then they’ll leave themselves open to takedowns and kicks. The fact that you can legally be tackled or hit in the legs just makes it an entirely different sport tactically, and what works for boxers isn’t going to work for an MMA fighter. I don’t follow MMA at all, and that seems clear as day to me.
There’s a reason that MMA fighters have bad form punching, and it’s not that they’re trained poorly (although there are some areas where they could improve for the most part). It’s more that if they put full weight into their punches like boxers do, it will leave them vulnerable to a grappling counter, and it would be in the opposite direction that a boxer would move. In boxing, if someone throws a straight right, a boxer can avoid the punch to his right and basically have a free shot on his opponent’s head, but the damage is generally limited. In MMA, if a fighter throws a straight right like that, his opponent can avoid the punch to his left and just grab the guy’s arm and put him in a standing armbar, and there’s not a lot he could do about it because if he puts his full weight behind it, he’s completely prone. The consequences of a miss with that kind of punch are just much worse in MMA than in boxing, and thus MMA fighters don’t punch that way.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Apr 14, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In 2009 a standing arm-bar off a straight right hand is less realistic and legitimate than a statute of liberty play. One in a million, and only that high because a majority of MMA fighters don’t properly throw the punch.
I’m through.
by lcollins1 on Apr 14, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw a standing gogoplata last year. Anything's possible.
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
by P Brady on Apr 14, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, maybe not an arm bar
But it leaves that entire side open. They could sweep, they could kick the back of the knee, they could grab the arm, they could throw a counterpunch, they could throw a knee to the gut, etc. If they don’t put their weight behind the punch properly, then theoretically they should be able to do it in a way that they don’t leave that side completely unprotected.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Apr 14, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would like too see someone work a standing arm-bar
"I want to see ocean. I want to see black people. I want to see palms." - Wladimir Klitschko
by jrok on Apr 14, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Could it be that MMA promoters have figured out what lifelong boxing fans have always known: MMA pros are largely inferior fighters with less experience, less experienced trainers less useful sparring regimines and shorter careers than the average game-cock?”
haha brilliant :) made me laugh, rec,d
"Welcome to Old Navy"- Dave Ming Chang.
by dinkman on Apr 15, 2009 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah… this is a disgrace to both sports.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Apr 13, 2009 6:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Imagine a boxing ring with no corners... yeah.
Hi I migrated from Bloodyelbow.com, and am interested in learning of this sweet science called boxing.
Its like Monte Cox has reached a certain point in this where he’s gone “To hell with this, I’m making the most ridiculous damn thing I can get away with.” Timmah is in for yet another humiliating loss.
Fun Tim Sylvia fact: he pooped his pants during a fight.
Keep firing Assholes!
by Ubernoober on Apr 13, 2009 6:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmm.....the UFC's version of Boza Edwards?
Seattle: Where the sun coming out or snow falling takes up 20 minutes of a 1 hour local news broadcast.
by SSreporters on Apr 13, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Details on Wikipedia are light on Boza Edward’s pants pooping details, so I can’t say for sure.
Keep firing Assholes!
by Ubernoober on Apr 13, 2009 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or Andrew Six Heads Lewis
Vogt early, Vogt often.
by Brickhaus on Apr 13, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome…
Both blogs are among the best of their respective sports.
I just feel that this fight is a travisshamockery to the respective sports.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Apr 13, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The match is bullshit ...
… but I don’t know if calling Monte a “shyster” is fair, even if it is misspelled.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Apr 13, 2009 7:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ah! haw haw!
"If they cut my bald head open, they will find one big boxing glove. That's all I am. I live it." -- Marvin Hagler
by SC on Apr 14, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't him very well, do you?
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
by P Brady on Apr 14, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sylvia has the worst first minute chin in history, so it should be over quickly.
Brad Ziegler had a scoreless inning streak. Brad Ziegler had not met BJ Upton.
by P Brady on Apr 14, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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