Bad Left Hook: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
New Blog: Cowboy Altitude for Wyoming Fans!

Pacquiao v. Mayweather: Who's the best of the decade?

Mannyfloyd_medium
We may well get an actual fight before the end of the decade (which comes this year -- feeling old?) to truly hash it out, but for now, the debate rages on.

Recently, RING Magazine's Michael Rosenthal put up a "Greatest fighters by decade" post on their blog. For the 2000s, he put Pacquiao in the top spot, with Mayweather as the runner-up.

Rosenthal says that he got a lot of mail about it, and not all of it was kind. He then makes his case for Pacquiao, and it's quite the impassioned plea:

The reactions got me thinking: OK, what is the overriding reason I believe Pacquiao is better than Mayeather, as well as Juan Manuel Marquez, Bernard Hopkins, Joe Calzaghe, Winky Wright and a few others who might have credentials?

The answer finally became clear: Because Pacquiao moves me, as does Marquez to a lesser extent. The others don’t.

I acknowledge that a strong case can be made that Mayweather is the best fighter of the 2000s. He is the most naturally gifted of these fighters and has a perfect record (39-0, 25 knockouts). He has what it takes to win and does so, plain and simple.

If that’s how you define the best fighter, then he’s your man. God bless you.

That’s not my definition, though. To me, skills and winning are only part of the equation.

I admire the sublime ability, speed and athleticism of Mayweather, as I did Pernell Whitaker. They are virtuoso boxers, master technicians, certainly among the best of their eras. At the same time, there’s something missing with both of them, in my opinion. I call it the “thrill factor.”

To me, the greatest fighters aren’t just admirable; they’re part technician and all warrior. They, too, have exceptional skills and win consistently but also take risks, both in terms of who they fight and in the ring. They seek out the best possible opponents and then go to war, putting both their record and well being on the line.

I think this is a great, great argument, and yes I put Pacquiao ahead of Mayweather as it stands now, too.

The difference, I think, is in a lot of what Rosenthal is saying: Pacquiao went out and sought the greatest challenges. Mayweather makes a show now of fighting men he admittedly deems "too small" to beat him. What kind of fighter is that?

I am not discounting Mayweather's skills, nor am I a hater. The man is absurdly talented, and he can be poetry to watch perform. He is a brilliant tactician who seems like he's generally two steps ahead of his opponents. And he is more than deserving of being called one of this decade's two best.

If Mayweather does it for you over Pacquiao, then I won't argue. But if the two of them finish out their careers as the two have gone so far, ask yourself this: Who's going to be revered for decades? It's Pacquiao. Mayweather will be respected (and I think respect will even grow over time for his skills). But Pacquiao has inspired, become a hero in both his native Philippines and in the sport worldwide.

He has become the beacon of light for a sport that has seen a depressed decade, if not the wasteland or cemetery it has been made out as by the misinformed. Mayweather doesn't have that sort of fire, that passion in him. He could have never been That Guy.

In some ways, I question if it's not plainly related to the fact that relatively speaking, boxing came easy for Mayweather. His father was a fighter, his uncle a better one. He was born, as they say, with boxing gloves on. And both his father and uncle are great teachers. Pacquiao fought his way out of poverty, going from scrawny flyweight world champion to ripped, fully formed junior welterweight champion of the world. It has not been "easy" for Pacquiao to get where he is. He wasn't backed from the moment he entered an amateur ring, groomed for success. He fought. Mayweather performed as a great artist might, rarely missing a note on stage.

It's all sports romance, really; cold, hard skill is very debatable, and no doubt Mayweather's has been at the highest level for longer. But that's not all we're talking about. Yngwie Malmsteen can shred; Stevie Ray Vaughn bled through his guitar. The comparison here is similar.

0 recs  |  Comment 54 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

It will always be the Boxer vs the Fighter

This debate never ends. There have always been two sides—people who love the Sweet Science, the hit and don’t be hit camp; and then there are people who love warriors, the guys who just want to fight. I think a case can be made for Pacman and Mayweather as the greatest fighter of each decade, and I think both would be right. In the end it will come down to your view of what boxing should be. What boxing fan doesn’t like seeing Corrales-Castillo, Ward-Gotti, or Dawson-Tarver (just kidding on the last one..lol)? But at the same time, when I watch a Hopkins-Trinidad, or almost any Mayweather fight, I’m just in awe of their skills. The way they can make some fighters look almost silly is amazing. It’s a beautiful thing. I love both and that’s why I love boxing.

by erod on May 13, 2009 9:03 AM EDT reply actions  

But see

Pac can do the Mayweather routine as evidenced against Diaz, DLH and Ricky. He can also do the warrior routine against Morales, Barrera, and JMM. The only difference between the two is Pac hasn’t ducked anybody and has fought guys at his level instead of picking and choosing fights that are perfect for his style.

Pac no doubt

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on May 13, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Manny never hides to anyone. He fought the best possible opponent available. Floyd keeps on ducking people like, Margarito, Mosley, Williams, and even Cotto. He should fight his own weight class. But if you will ask me, of course, I would like to see him fight the Pacman, that is if he will beat Great Marquez (Small JMM). I gave credit to JMM for fighting PBF. I am sure that their fight will be considered as Pretty Boring Fights of the decade. Marquez by unanimous decision. Peace

by knightlevy on May 13, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Manny never hide to anyone. He fought the best there is on his divisions or higher. Floyd keeps on ducking people like, Margarito, Mosley, Williams, and even Cotto. He should fight his own weight class. But if you will ask me, of course, I would like to see him fight the Pacman, that is if he will beat Great Marquez (Small JMM). I gave credit to JMM for fighting PBF. I am sure that their fight will be considered as Pretty Boring Fights of the decade. Marquez by unanimous decision. Peace!!!

by knightlevy on May 13, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Forgetting one camp versus the other camp

And ignoring how the fighters won their fights, purely based on resume, Pacquiao takes it at this point. And as much of it has to do with what Mayweather hasn’t done as what Pacquiao has done. A year ago when he retired, his run at 140 and 147 looked relatively impressive. Now, not so much. Mayweather gets some credit for beating Oscar (it’s a better win for Mayweather than for Pacquiao), but other than that, he beat Hatton at a weight where everyone already knew he looked sluggish, he beat Baldomir (who has struggled since, and who got overrated by beating an already shot Gatti), he beat Judah (who’s turned out to be not as good as people thought), he beat old Sharmba Mitchell who was maybe 70% of his former best, Bruseles (who?), Corley (6-8 since) and Gatti (shot and we didn’t know it yet). Could he have beaten better fighters? Probably, but he didn’t. I can’t rank him higher on the basis that he could have beaten Mosley or Cotto, because he never fought them. And taking on JMM 12 pounds above his best weight isn’t going to help his case much either.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on May 13, 2009 9:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Rec'd hard

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on May 13, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

It was that good, I rec'd your rec.....

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 13, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep...

Couldn’t have said it better. Pacquiao has dueled with the best, was somewhat ordinary looking in the beginning but evolved into what he is today — a complete (or close to) fighter, and has shown nothing but class all the way. He’s a greater ambassador for the sport than Mayweather could ever hope to be.

If you’ve ever been to the Philippines and seen the poverty first hand, I’m sure you can grasp just why Pacquiao is practically deified over there. He represents a life believed to be out of reach. He never should have gotten to this point. Millions of Filipinos are born into and live Pacquiao’s early life, and millions will die never having risen above their station. But Pacquiao has. He IS hope. Where Mayweather says “Look at me, look at my cash, I was born to do this, there’s no one else like me, I’m the greatest, etc…” Pacquiao communicates “I was, am, always will be one of you, I fight for you, I will always fight for you.” That is why, while Mayweather may be the superior athlete and the more sophisticated practitioner of his art, he can never, ever be a “hero.” Floyd loves to flaunt his belts, looking in some photos as though weighed down by all that hardware. But he can never know what it means to bear the weight of a nation and inspire a people. Pacquiao does, and does so with that childlike smile of his. His now trademark phrase “I fight to make people happy,” was one which I initially thought to be the product of his developing English skills. I thought it was quaint in its innocence and simplicity. But it has grown on me. His English has gotten better, but he still says that. I know now that he says so, only because he means it. When Mayweather “retired” that first time a lot of people said “good riddance.” I can’t imagine the same reaction once Manny retires, and between the two, we all know who’ll be the more sorely missed and reminisced of.

by Areglado on May 13, 2009 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Couldn’t have said it better…

Actually, you just did say it better. Rec’d

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on May 13, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a unabashed Pernell Whitaker fan, I’m going to have to go with Mayweather, simply because I love the way a great “boxer” can toy with other fighters. I know most people hate Mayweather because of his cockiness and general attitude, but I’m sitting here looking at his wins, and Manny’s, and you realize that Floyd has only had one split decision in his entire career (against De La Hoya, who he obviously beat). Which essentially means that every time Mayweather hasn’t knocked someone out, every judge except ONE has thought he was the victor in his fights. I love Pacquiao as well, but we are basing all this recent glowing praise mostly on his last two fights. Let’s not forget their are many people who thought Marquez won both fights against Pacquiao, and if Floyd can deliver a clear victory over Marquez (who let’s be honest, looked fantastic in his last fight against Juan Diaz, a hell of an opponent) I think people need to look at Mayweather and Pacquiao as pretty equal at that point. And assuming Cotto wins against Clottey (which in my opinion keeps him undefeated, as his loss to Margarito should stick in no ones mind) I think we will see Pacquiao-Cotto before we see Mayweather-Pacquiao. So it might be awhile before this is settled.

by jjstraka on May 13, 2009 11:57 AM EDT reply actions  

Manny's style

also plays right into JMM’s hands. Floyd never takes fights that aren’t perfect for his style. Because he cowers from a challenge. Manny doesn’t and thats why his record isn’t pure like PBF’s.

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on May 13, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pac just didn’t get to this point because of his last 2 wins. He is a 6 divisional champion. He beat the best at 122, 126, and 130 even multiple times like Barrera and Morales before his last 2 wins. Floyd should be fighting to his division and beat Cotto, Mosley, and Williams and win them to be at the level of Pac.

Even if Floyd beat Marquez convincingly, he will not be at the level of Pac. Remember this is lb-4-lb. Floyd is a natural welterweight. Marquez just move up from 130 just a little over a year ago. This is akin to Floyd challenging Kelly Pavlik jumping 2 weight divisions. Sounds funny isn’t it?

by TopQuark on May 13, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair, I don’t consider Floyd a natural welterweight. I think he’s a natural lightweight who did his best work in the 130-135 range, where I rank him among the best ever. I think part of the problem is that he’s not really a welterweight, and that the top of that particular class all have a good chance of beating him. He’s physically large enough to comfortable up there above 140, though, which is probably the best rationale for the JMM fight. Something along the lines of “Hey, can you do it up here like I can?”

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on May 13, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thank god the guy got the 90's right.....

I have heard so many people try to talk disparagingly about Roy Jones Jr, and it kills me.

For my money, peak Jones is the best fighter ever, P4P. I’ve never seen a man who so typified the way that every other fighter wished they could fight, or did the things that every other boxer wished they could do, with such regularity.

I’d be tempted to have Tyson as number #2 ahead of Whitaker though, for the same reason you have to have Pac ahead of Floyd, really; the story. There are a lot of fans out there today who quite simply would not have been fans were it not for Tyson, the guy transcended boxing like possibly no other fighter ever, whether for good or bad, and whether people loved him or hated him. EVERYONE knew who Mike Tyson was, who he had last fought, what he had said that week. He was quite possibly more famous than Jesus at one point.

Even though I don’t think he was the 2nd best fighter in terms of skill, record, or any one of one hundred other factors, during the 90’s, Tyson influenced boxing both inside and outside the ring more than anyone else in my lifetime, of that I’m sure.

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 13, 2009 1:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Tyson is 80s, though. The 90s weren’t exactly kind to him.

by Scott Christ on May 13, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was going to say the same thing. Tyson spent the 80’s building up a ton of fame, fortune and good will around the world, then spent the 90’s flushing all that straight down the toilet. Apart from the Ruddock victories, most of what I remember about Tyson is him losing his fights, his mind and his dignity.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on May 13, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I kind of meant that;

although his best was behind him, he was still THE name in boxing for most of the 90’s.

While not being at all disparaging toward Tyson as a fighter (I was a massive fan and still think his punch timing was among the top few I’ve ever seen), I have already stated in my above post that I was not nominating him solely based on his boxing career.

He was the name, the story, the biggest draw in boxing for fair reasons or foul, he was the most talked about, the most famous, and he wasn’t exactly a bad fighter in the 90’s either, at least when he wasn’t in prison….

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 13, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I agree with that

As Mike himself once famously noted in the 90’s: “I can sell out Madison Square Garden masturbating.”

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on May 13, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eloquent....

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 13, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

hah!

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on May 14, 2009 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

My 90s runner-up would actually be Oscar. Dude captivated interest like few else.

by Scott Christ on May 13, 2009 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pacquiao

Manny is the fighter of the decade.

Little off topic; while this period may not be the best for boxing (50s? 80s?) its sure been a decade for lots of classic fights, Ward-Gatti-Marquez-Vasquez trilogys/Morales-Barerra/Corrales-Castillo plus a many more i could list. I collect fights and the past 10 years have been amazing for me personally.

Here is to the next 10.

Keep looking for Madeleine McCann. She is out there.

by dinkman on May 13, 2009 3:20 PM EDT reply actions  

From a friend

They (The Ring) are idiots. Floyd has more warrior and heart than they do in the gym training and so it shows in the fight by how easy it is. The Ring celebrates fighters who don’t train with enough heart and skill so they have a rougher time in the ring during the fight.

To me, the guy who’s the real warrior is the guy who prepares.

Oh yeah, remember Floyd vs Famoso? Messes up both hands and still wins.

by Option27 on May 13, 2009 8:00 PM EDT reply actions  

Is Pacquiao really any less prepared than Floyd though?

I mean, at the very least, he seems to have better gameplans coming in.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on May 14, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

When you factor Floyd's whole life

Naw. Not even close in my book.

And for better game plans, Floyd has never lost so I don’t think the argument works

by Option27 on May 14, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

their records will tell us

Who’s the best fighter of 2000s? Lets look at the records…
Mayweather fought 17 times this decade and won all with 47% knockout percentage while
Pacquiao fought 25 times, lost and drawn once with 76 knockout percentage.
Now who do you think is the best?

by eric brun on May 13, 2009 8:27 PM EDT reply actions  

That is a funny question.

You can say Floyd as you have shown him as unbeaten, but there are too many other factors involced in making this decision for it to be that clear-cut. The argument over respective competition is a valid one, but even that is not an all-encompassing solution to the debate…..

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 13, 2009 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're probably right Chaos 100

You’re probably right Chaos 100! There are too many questions involved here like perhaps…excitement and humility. Does Mayweather have that? I dont think so. Pacquiao is truly the best for 2000s! Rosenthal is a genius!!

by eric brun on May 13, 2009 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

let's do some logic

Edwin Valero fought 25 times this decade and won all with a 100% knockout percentage…

Using this logic clearly he is the best?

by tiltisthename on May 13, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right

And I mean, why stop there? Hell, Tye Fields fought forty-something fights in this decade. It’s not about numbers, its about the fights and he fighters themselves.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on May 13, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let’s not even get into Malik Scott.

by Scott Christ on May 13, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about this guy who's fighting this weekend

Comanche Boy

Teddy Atlas ain’t lying when he says you can build up a nice record in Oklahoma.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on May 14, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tyrone Brunson, anyone? :)

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 14, 2009 5:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

check youre logic please!

We are talking about Mayweather and Pacquiao only Valero is not included. The debate here is between Mayweather and Pacquiao only! Check your logic please. Now tell me tiltisthename who is the best between Mayweather and Pacquiao based on their records for 2000? huh?

by eric brun on May 14, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Their argument

They were questioning the underlying assumption in your argument, which is that statistics have meaning outside of the actual people who are being fought.They’re trying to point out that your numbers don’t mean much taken in isolation of the actual fighters involved.

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on May 14, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

question without a suggestion

ya you’re probably right but he didnt lay his argument either.

by eric brun on May 14, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

We just throw in the assumption that everyone knows their stuff here, which I think you do. We’re not hatin’, dude — welcome to BLH, too.

by Scott Christ on May 14, 2009 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

the suggestion was implied

The question was meant to put you in the right direction of thinking. I don’t have to spoon feed you with information. If you don’t get it then forget it. You’ll only come up with useless arguments.

by tiltisthename on May 24, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

VALERO WHO?!!

Are you a Valero fan tiltisthename? He cannot even be compared to Mayweather and Pacquiao because he has not fought and defeated great champions like them. Valero, for all I know, has only fought balut-vendors-turned-into-boxers!!

by eric brun on May 14, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

How did you come up with that conclusion?

I don’t really see were it was implied that I am a Valero fan…

by tiltisthename on May 24, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you joking?

Who has Valero? Can you name a few?

by deadcard on May 14, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who has Valero fought? Can you name a few?

by deadcard on May 14, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, purely based on those two guys, you immediately get into the v. competition situation. Pac’s primarily been fighting lighter guys, PBF bigger guys. That hasn’t proved to be much of a factor yet as Pac’s moved up, but that’s why we need to see the fight.

by lcollins1 on May 14, 2009 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

AGREE

I Agree! The only way to settle this is a fight between Mayweather and Pacquiao (Should Mayweather beat Marquez).

by eric brun on May 14, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

THE LEGENDARY VALERO

EDWIN VALERO should be the greatest boxer of the decade…..yeah….we must give credit to him …..it’s really hard to get 100 % KO percentage against drunk Japanese..

by deadly coward on May 14, 2009 1:53 AM EDT reply actions  

I think Valero will be a beast. (Apart from the stats conversation)

by lcollins1 on May 14, 2009 2:09 AM EDT reply actions  

I’m slowly coming around. I think Manny rolls him, but past that at 135? Tough matchup. Dude can hit.

by Scott Christ on May 14, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

THANK YOU MANNY.....You made boxing alive again

Because of Manny boxing popularity is surging again…..that means good ticket sales, media activities, advertising campaign, merchandise licensing, ppv, hotel booking, airline booking……all of this because of this humble guy that really deserve the title of P4P and best boxer of the decade. I believe its not only the skills of boxer that will be the gauge but his overall impact in the industry.

by ishreh on May 14, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions  

"I believe its not only the skills of boxer that will be the gauge but his overall impact in the industry."

Exactly why I had Tyson as my runner up for the 90’s…..

:)

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 14, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

monerweather jr.

In terms of overall impact to the boxing world, “money may” aint better than manny unless he beat……nikolay valuev? not in the free throw line, in the ring….jr.

by deadly coward on May 14, 2009 9:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to SB Nation's Bad Left Hook, covering boxing 365 days a year.
Start posting on Bad Left Hook »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

SBNation.com Recent Stories

Texas Rangers left fielder Josh Hamilton (32) reaches out to make a grab on a Oakland Athletics' Mark Ellis fly out in the ninth inning of a baseball game Friday Aug. 27, 2010, in Arlington, Texas.  The Rangers won 7-3. (AP Photo/Tony Gutierrez) link

Josh Hamilton To Be Out For 'Extended Period' Following Collision With Wall

Baltimore Ravens wide receiver Mark Clayton (89) makes a catch in front of defender Cary Williams (29) during the NFL football team's training camp, Monday, Aug. 2, 2010, in Westminster, Md. (AP Photo/Rob Carr)

Ravens Trade WR Mark Clayton To Rams

Boise State quarterback Kellen Moore (11) throws a deep pass in the first quarter against Louisiana Tech during their NCAA college football game in Ruston, La., Friday, Nov. 6, 2009. (AP Photo/Rogelio V. Solis) +1 updates

No. 3 Boise State And No. 10 Virginia Tech Provide Exciting Finish To Opening Weekend

More from SBNation.com >


Managers

45654_463757425922_747385922_6965275_6708624_n_small Scott Christ

Editors

Adamek1_small Brickhaus

Boxing_icon_small Matt Miller

Authors

Metux_sm_small jrok

Small Chaos100