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Bad Left Hook Pound-for-Pound Top 20: Pacquiao now totally peerless

MARK RALSTON/AFP/Getty Images

MARK RALSTON/AFP/Getty Images

Five guys have dropped out of the top 20 since I updated it in February, and there's some shifting around. Things change fairly quickly in boxing, and we've seen some eventful stuff of late.

Daa1834ecd1b8c9c3e9705dbdc8a6bb1-getty-84737838em001_manny_pacquia_medium 1. Manny Pacquiao (Junior Welterweight, 1)

Since Last Time: Do you have to ask? Manny Pacquiao's two-round blitzing of Ricky Hatton wasn't just stunning and didn't just cement his status as the sport's best pound-for-pound fighter, it put a massive amount of distance between himself and the rest of the field. I have watched the fight several times and still feel that Juan Manuel Marquez won a close one against Pacquiao last year, but it's so close that the official win for Pacquiao isn't some level of bunk or anything. I have also said many times here that I feel if they fought again, Pacquiao would stop Marquez.

I now not only feel Pacquiao would stop Marquez, but I have to agree with Freddie Roach: Pacquiao would take him out early. Roach says inside of three rounds, and he said the same thing about Hatton. Roach has been describing Manny as a different fighter than even the guy that fought Marquez last March, when he was phenomenal against a great fighter, both guys at what was then their best. Roach says "something clicked." Nothing even needed to click for him to be great. But I think Freddie's right; Manny's better now than he was then.

I picked against him this time on the feeling that Ricky Hatton had "it" in him for this fight. It took less than a round for Manny Pacquiao to take whatever "it" Ricky might've had and knock it to the floor. Once Hatton got dropped the first time, he never had a chance. Manny could fight Kelly Pavlik and I'd pick Manny now. I might actually be serious, too.

Up Next: Pacquiao said before the fight that he wanted to return in November, which might still be the plan, but he could literally fight this coming weekend if he wanted to. He took no damage from Hatton. Right now it's up in the air, but I think most likely we'll see Manny next against the Mayweather-Marquez winner, Shane Mosley or Miguel Cotto.

Cce133d47a4adcb4408e8b8c4802ec54-getty-86349272mw005_floyd_mayweat_medium 2. Juan Manuel Marquez (Lightweight, 2)

Since Last Time: Marquez stopped Juan Diaz in the ninth round of the fight I currently have leading the race for 2009 Fight of the Year. It was a thriller and showed Marquez to be not just highly skilled, but a warrior who could take flush shots, fire back, and win the battle in the trenches.

Up Next: It will be his biggest payday and probably his most-watched fight ever, and that means that the money coming in will soften any blows he takes as a fighter, but Marquez is showing huge huevos taking a fight with Floyd Mayweather Jr., who comes out of his, ahem, "retirement" to fight the lightweight champeen at a 143-pound catchweight in July.

Mayweather likely is a stylistic nightmare for Marquez. He's kept himself in great shape during his time out of the ring, so I don't think rust will be a major factor. Marquez would need the rust to be there. Marquez would also need to catch Floyd flush, repeatedly, which is hard to do. I don't hate the fight, but... well, we'll come back to this some other time.

As for Mayweather himself, no matter how he beats Marquez (if he beats Marquez), he won't jump back to No. 1 pound-for-pound on this list. Pacquiao's resume is just too strong.

539w_medium 3. Paul Williams (Welterweight/Junior Middleweight/Middleweight, 5)

Since Last Time: After regaining his welterweight strap from Carlos Quintana, Williams went to 160 last year to smash club fighter Andy Kolle. He then went back down, this time to 154, and pretty well dominated Verno Phillips, a good fighter who hadn't been stopped in about two decades until he met Tall Paul last November. A few weeks ago, Williams went back to 160 to face the returning Winky Wright -- and he gave Winky Wright the worst beating of his career.

Sure, Wink had been out of the ring forever (nearly two years, in fact), but he didn't look out of shape, didn't really look rusty. He was just completely overwhelmed by Williams' insane stamina and punch rate. It was a loss so clear that the usually outspoken Wright, who has complained about a few decisions in his day, just went, "Yep, that guy's a good one, and he whooped me tonight."

Paul Williams is 27 -- by far the youngest guy in my top five (Pacquiao, at 30, is the second-youngest). A couple years ago if you'd have told me I'd have Paul Williams at No. 3 in my pound-for-pound rankings, I'd have assumed one of two likely reasons for this: (1) A lot of people retired, (2) something downright crazy happened. But it's not really that crazy, and retirements have nothing to do with it. He's gotten a lot better, learned to utilize his freakish reach, and proven himself both tough and able to learn from defeat.

Up Next: Williams and his camp talk big, but they back it up. They've talked about going all the way up to 168 pounds if necessary, and about fighting Bernard Hopkins. I think they'd cut back down to 147 if that meant a fight with Shane Mosley, who Williams also has talked about facing. There are a lot of possibilities just because Paul is so willing to make a fight at whatever weight he has to; there aren't that many possibilities because there aren't too many guys that are going to want to fight him. He's fixed his flaws. He's at his best right now. And he still isn't a "star."

Box_hopkins_pavlik_580_medium 4. Bernard Hopkins (Light Heavyweight, 3)

Since Last Time: Well, he's been on ESPN2 a few times. He's pretty good at that.

Oh, and he talked up how exciting it would be to fight cruiserweight champion Tomasz Adamek for another legit title in another division.

And then he insultingly low-balled Adamek with an offer that was first reported as a $500,000 flat fee, which was just ridiculous. The Adamek camp later said it wasn't even that much, and that they might've taken that offer.

Basically, Bernard's been a lot of hot air in 2009. No disrespect intended, he's a great fighter, but that's what he's been.

Up Next: Don't know! Hopkins turned 44 in January, which makes it understandable that he might've had some second thoughts about fighting Adamek, who isn't a young man at 32, but he also presents a better style matchup than did Kelly Pavlik, I think, and Admaek carries his weight very well. I'd happily take Hopkins against Paul Williams, I suppose, partly because it'd just be intriguing to see how high Paul can go. There's also been slight talk of Hopkins facing 26-year old Chad Dawson, even though Bernard initially said after Pavlik that he didn't want to fight the young guys anymore.

What's strange for me personally is that since he hasn't fought since October, some of the shine has worn off when I first think of the Pavlik win, and I let my mind stray to a "What have you done for me lately?" sort of place, and then I think and I go, "You know, he IS 44 years old..."

But Hopkins' performance against Pavlik was shocking. He still deserves all the credit in the world for that fight.

Margarito_medium 5. Shane Mosley (Welterweight, 4)

Since Last Time: Nothin' new to talk about. Mosley's career had serious momentum again after he destroyed Antonio Margarito, but sadly the biggest story out of that fight was Margarito and his handwraps. All that momentum has turned into nothing as far as getting a fight signed goes; he wanted Mayweather, but Floyd was too busy being retired.

A month later, Floyd heard Marquez call him out, and responded, "And fight me you shall!"

Go figure.

Up Next: No clue right now. He says he'd like to fight Miguel Cotto again, but Cotto has his hands full on June 13. Mosley also says he won't do it at Madison Square Garden again, which I think is kind of cheap; why not? It'll do a great house and it's not like the judges or referee are going to be Cotto's personal friends. Mosley's career is on hold while everyone else fights, basically.

6. Miguel Cotto (Welterweight, 6)

Since Last Time: Cotto predictably destroyed poor Michael Jennings in February. Every time I talk about that fight, I can't help but call him "poor Michael Jennings." Maybe that should be his new nickname: "Poor" Michael Jennings. It's no worse than his actual nickname, "The Lurcher." Once he got to Jennings' body, the fight was over. He looked just as vicious as ever; for now, there are no apparent side effects from the Margarito fight.

He's also split with uncle/trainer Evangelista Cotto after a nasty and physical dispute in camp. He's now working with Joe Santiago.

Up Next: A dangerous fight with Joshua Clottey on June 13 in New York. A lot of people really like Clottey, and I agree he's a tough, durable dude and a fighter who has more than earned a chance like this, but I just don't see him beating Cotto. I actually don't even think the fight will be close assuming Cotto's camp with Santiago has no problems and he's totally focused. There are too many times I've seen Clottey lay off the gas and just not look very impressive, and certainly not like he'd be any great challenge for a fighter of Cotto's level. But again, a lot of people like him to pull the upset in that fight.

7. Vic Darchinyan (Junior Bantamweight, 10)

Since Last Time: Vic had just come off of an absolute pummeling of Jorge Arce. He's decided to move up to 118 pounds (bantamweight) for his next fight.

Up Next: A July 11 date with bantamweight titlist Joseph "King Kong" Agbeko in what could be a war. Both guys are heavy-handed and Agbeko takes a hell of a punch, too. If Darchinyan is impressive at 118, I wouldn't expect he'll stay too long; he seems on a mission to get to 122 pounds.

8. Ivan Calderon (Junior Flyweight, 7)

Since Last Time: Calderon still hasn't fought since August, when he beat Hugo Cazares in their rematch by way of technical decision after seven rounds.

Up Next: A featured spot on the undercard of Cotto-Clottey, though he won't be on HBO. Calderon will face Rodel Mayol (25-3, 19 KO), a Filipino who makes for exciting fights but hasn't beaten a good opponent in...well, ever. He does have losses to Ulises Solis (TKO-8), Eagle Den Junlaphan (UD-12) and Adrian Hernandez (KO-4). Calderon is 34 and slowing down a little bit, but he's still going to have way too much skill for Mayol.

9. Chad Dawson (Light Heavyweight, 12)

Since Last Time: Dawson hasn't fought since October, when he dominated Antonio Tarver.

Up Next: Dawson will fight this coming Saturday when he dominates Antonio Tarver. It's a horrible rematch that no one wants, but it's a formality and I guess Tarver has every right to exercise his option. I still wish he'd had the good taste to not. HBO's promotion for the fight has barely acknowledged that Tarver also plans to be there.

10. Kelly Pavlik (Middleweight, 11)

Since Last Time: Pavlik faced off with battle-tested mandatory challenger Marco Antonio Rubio in February and made him look like a bum. Dawson and Pavlik are really good young fighters, but I also want to note that both have cracked the top ten mostly because of other fighters losing or retiring or just being inactive.

Up Next: Another Top Rank PPV fight, this time with former 154-pound titlist, "Contender" season one champ and all-around beloved legend of the ring Sergio Mora. It's a fight so unattractive at the price it costs to make it that the networks took a pass on the second straight Kelly Pavlik fight. One gets the impression -- as has been said before by others -- that as much as many people like Kelly Pavlik, it seems like most people just aren't buying it.

760x316-01_medium 11. Juan Manuel Lopez (Junior Featherweight, -)

Since Last Time: Lopez wasn't ranked last time out, though I'd put him into the honorable mentions. For some people, Cuban featherweight Yuriorkis Gamboa is The It Prospect, the guy who will be so good and so entertaining that superstar status is sure to arrive.

For me, it's Lopez. In fact if the two of them fought at 126 pounds, I'd pick Lopez every day of the week and twice on Sunday. He's incredibly powerful, bigger than Gamboa (5'7" to 5'5") and I dare say he's a higher skill as a pure boxer, too. What he unleashed upon Gerry Penalosa was astounding.

Up Next: Nothing on the horizon right now.

12. Arthur Abraham (Middleweight, 15)

Since Last Time: Abraham predictably won a wide unanimous decision over rather unknown American Lajuan Simon in Germany.

Up Next: The talk of Abraham's inevitable move up to 168 pounds has intensified, but so has the idea of the IBF titlist facing middleweight champ Pavlik late in the year. He'll likely fight this summer, sometime around the time Pavlik fights Mora, I'd guess, and then we'll see if both sides can get a deal done for Pavlik-Abraham provided they both win. It is the only middleweight fight that really matters.

13. Nonito Donaire (Flyweight, -)

Since Last Time: Donaire flattened previously unbeaten Raul Martinez at the famous Araneta Coliseum on April 18.

Up Next: There's been a lot of talk that he'll go to 115 pounds, as he apparently has some trouble cutting down to 112. I'm starting to feel like Donaire is becoming legitimately underrated, as if he beat the tar out of Darchinyan and then disappeared. His career did lose some steam during his battles with Gary Shaw, but he's 3-0 since beating Darchinyan and he's not out there struggling with guys, he's knocking them out. Do I think he'd beat Darchinyan again? I want to say no, but there's also part of me that thinks Darchinyan would be so aggressive he'd run into another left hook in short order.

14. Chris John (Featherweight, 17)

Since Last Time: It may have been a draw, but he had a heck of a good fight with Rocky Juarez on the Marquez-Diaz undercard. (And I thought he won, too.)

Up Next: John continues his American boxing vacation by re-matching Juarez in Los Angeles on June 27, paired on HBO with the Victor Ortiz-Marcos Maidana fight, an attractive alternative to the Pavlik PPV to say the least.

15. Rafael Marquez (Junior Featherweight, 9)

Since Last Time: Marquez still has not fought since his rubber match with Israel Vazquez in March 2008. He stays on the list only because he does have a scheduled return now.

Up Next: A fight with Colombian Jose Francisco Mendoza (21-2-1, 17 KO), who has never beaten anyone and is 0-2-1 in his last three bouts. But given Marquez's layoff, his reckless nature, and the fact that he's coming off of three brutal wars with Vazquez, it has to be said: Beware the unheralded Colombian slugger.

16. Celestino Caballero (Junior Featherweight, 16)

Since Last Time: Caballero struggled with but beat Jeffrey Mathebula this week.

Up Next: Lots of talk of him taking his act to 126 pounds, perhaps to face Yuriorkis Gamboa in what could be all sorts of entertaining. I guess some might think I have Caballero low, but the truth is I've never been too crazy about him and I really don't like watching him fight that much, so maybe I'm biased, but I also just don't think he's that good. He's a guy that gets by making some bad mistakes because of the way he's built. Paul Williams is a freak of nature but he's become less awkward over time. Caballero has not; he can be downright ugly to watch. If Caballero fought Lopez, I think he'd get chewed up and spit back out. If Caballero fought Marquez...I dunno, I haven't seen Marquez in forever and we don't know what he has left, but the Marquez of the Vazquez fights would be too accurate and too strong for Caballero. If you wonder how these guys are going to get inside on Caballero, I think they'd just get inside. He's slow and not that big of a hitter. All that aside, he's beaten good fighters, is on a great run right now, and deserves his spot on any P4P list like this. Leaving him off would be real bias.

17. Hozumi Hasegawa (Bantamweight, -)

Since Last Time: Hasegawa started his career 3-2 and hasn't lost since. You'd also guess with a look at his record (26-2, 10 KO) that he can't punch, but his last three wins have been TKO-2, TKO-2 and TKO-1. He's held the WBC's bantamweight strap since 2005, when he beat Veeraphol Sahaprom. He stopped Sahaprom in a rematch in 2006, too. Here he is on March 12 against Vusi Malinga.

Up Next: Nothing right now, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say he fights in Japan.

18. Tomasz Adamek (Cruiserweight, -)

Since Last Time: Adamek joins my P4P party after bringing the hammer down on then-unbeaten Johnathon Banks in February. After seven competitive rounds (at least scorecard-wise), the tide was turning in Adamek's favor. He finished Banks off with a huge flurry.

Up Next: Matt Godfrey on July 10. Is anyone going to try to make Adamek-Cunningham II?

19. Mikkel Kessler (Super Middleweight, 20)

Since Last Time: Promoter squabbling and inactivity, the new Kessler routine. Not that it's his fault.

Up Next: For now, more promoter squabbling and inactivity.

20. Edgar Sosa (Junior Flyweight, -)

Since Last Time: Sosa, like Humberto Soto or Carlos Baldomir, didn't start so hot but has turned into a hell of a late bloomer. All five of his losses came between 2000 and 2003, and when you look at the names, there's not a bad fighter there: Young versions of Ulises Solis (twice), Manuel Vargas, Omar Nino and veteran Isaac Bustos. His most recent fight was an April win over Pornsawan Porpramook (TKO-4).

Up Next: No fight currently scheduled. I'd love to see -- as in, actually see on television -- a fight between Sosa and Ivan Calderon, and now there's some real intrigue in a rematch between Sosa and Brian Viloria. Sosa beat Viloria by majority decision in 2007.

Honorable Mentions: Nate Campbell, Omar Narvaez, Daisuke Naito, Lucian Bute, Wladimir Klitschko, Joan Guzman, Steven Luevano, Edwin Valero, Fernando Montiel, Raul Garcia, Roman Gonzalez

The Departed

Israel Vazquez (8) falls off because he hasn't fought in 14 months and there's nothing solid about a return. He wants to, but he has to be medically cleared. ... Nate Campbell (14) falls off because as solid a fight as he had in February with Ali Funeka, he had some trouble and also failed to make weight. We haven't seen how he'll look moving up to 140 at 37 years of age. ... Ulises Solis (18) is out after his loss to Brian Viloria. No shame in the loss, and a hell of a war, but he's out. ... Wladimir Klitschko (19) is out because he's just out. We might learn a little about him against Haye in June, but right now I feel like I've learned absolutely nothing new about Wladimir in his last seven fights. He's not really among the best of the best guys in their divisions, I'm starting to think; it's just the perfect landscape for him to dominate because he hasn't fought anyone that hits him.

Ricky Hatton (13) is out. This one was really hard for me. Ricky Hatton has been in my top 10-20 pound-for-pound fighters for a long, long time, and there's no shame in losing to Manny Pacquiao, but he wasn't even in Pacquiao's league. Hatton has not just lost to the two guys who were pound-for-pound kings, he was worn out and blown up by Mayweather, and Pacquiao made him look like a complete scrub. I still feel Ricky Hatton could be a hell of a good fighter, but he was hurt by everything Manny threw. If Hatton fights on, he might well earn his way back onto one of these lists in the future. But I just don't see him as one of the 20 best in the sport, and if this thing went to 30 I don't think I'd have him on anymore.

But don't think I've stopped being a Ricky Hatton fan. I haven't.

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I honestly don’t think Mannys changed that much since his last Marquez fight. The Oscar and Hatton fights aren’t good fights to measure that IMO. Honestly I have JMM as a draw in that 1st fight (even though the stats are there for Marquez) and the second fight he won. I rewatched both today. :) You could also say JMM isn’t the same fighter Pac fought then either but I wont get into that.

It doesn’t matter though like you said Money May is not a good matchup for JMM and I think he loses a decision. We won’t be getting the trilogy. What we will be getting is a fight where Manny beats Floyd up all over the ring. :)

I’ll take it!

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on May 3, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

There’s something different about the way Pacquiao attacks the last few fights. The weight seems to have done nothing but make him stronger, too. I was saying in the picks thread that Manny hadn’t had any of those knockdowns that seem to come out of nowhere since he dropped Marquez last March, so I wondered about his power over 130, if it was really the same. So then he knocks the crap out of Hatton three times in two rounds. Shut me up, I’ll tell you that.

by SC on May 3, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pac hit Super Sayian

Its that simple.

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on May 4, 2009 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

David Diaz

I just don’t know why, but my mind kept going back to David Diaz. Diaz, if anything, is double tough, and nearly impossible to discourage. Now, when Holt stopped him, that’s just what he did, he stopped him, he didn’t ice him. But Manny did. Manny knocked him out. OUT. Plus, Diaz’s fight with Holt was at 140. He fought Manny at 135. If anything, Diaz should have been able to take shots better at LW. So this got me thinking about just how hard Pacquiao hits. If Holt, a known puncher at 140 failed to keep Diaz on his back, but Pacquiao demolished him, what does that say about Pac-man’s hitting power?

Pacquiao’s been talking about his weight struggles for some time, and many, myself included, didn’t believe him. People were saying “Manny, you’re really a featherweight, a junior lightweight at most, don’t get crazy.” But I mean, the guy knows his body. He’s done nothing but looked absolutely phenomenal and crazy strong since he’s stopped cutting weight.

 I think JMM is one of the three most intelligent fighters of our time (along with Hopkins and Mayweather) and will always pose some kind of problem for Manny. But I honestly don’t think he can hang with this particular version. I think he’s perhaps the greatest Mexican fighter of his generation, so much so that I’ve been daydreaming mythical match-ups between him and Sal Sanchez. I’ll be rooting for him all the way against FMJ. It’s a bad match-up for JMM though. FMJ needs to quit being a bitch and fight Mosley or Cotto. Shane deserves it and has been itching for a chance to knock Floyd’s pretty little head off.

by Areglado on May 4, 2009 12:10 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Shane deserves it and has been itching for a chance to knock Floyd’s pretty little head off.

I hear you man. As tempting as PBF vs. Pacquiao seems right now, I would rather see Floyd fight Mosley first. Pacquaio will be there, if Mayweather should ever have the stones to man up. I’ve been wanting to see PBF vs. Mosley for a long time.

Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"

by Matt Miller on May 4, 2009 12:28 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yep, Mayweather-Mosley is a match-up boxing fans have been denied for too long. And I’d totally root for Mosley to pummel Floyd. I’m sick of his mouth, act or not. He’s shown little respect for the sport and for his opponents. No one doubts Mayweather’s abilities. That’s the sad part. He’s being stingy with his talents. He’s completely self-serving, not unlike his father. And I hate that. If he and Pacquiao do fight, and say Floyd wins, I honestly don’t think that diminishes Pacquiao’s legacy (unless of course Pacquiao gets blown out in the first round or something, which I don’t see). Pacquiao has come to represent so much more to fans of the sport and to his people than Floyd ever will. For me, personally, it isn’t just Pacquiao’s legendary resume or awe-inspiring physical abilities that make him an All-Time Great, but also his humility, work ethic, desire to continue learning his craft, and unparalleled class. I’m blessed to see him in action in my own time, and doubly blessed to call him my countryman.

by Areglado on May 4, 2009 1:03 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Hatton

Sorry, SC, but I don’t personally think that being beaten by the number #1 guy makes you less than a top 20 guy….

There are a lot of other fighters in your list that Pac would also destroy without any struggle whatsoever, and that is kind of the proof of the pudding. If you are going to drop Hatton to below 20 (or 30, even) on the basis that he lost to the P4P #1 fighter in the world twice, then I’d assume you’d drop Marquez lower if Floyd beats the crap out of him (which he almost certainly will)?? Marquez would have lost three times to the P4P #1 (arguably, of course….) then, so where would you rank him?

IT seems to be a trend in boxing to assume that the best guy beating the second best guy demeans the second best guy (I’m not saying Ricky was the second best guy, but you get my point) so much that he isn’t even regarded as being top 3 any more. Malignaggi was seen as a genuine threat to Hatton, and would have been in many people’s top 3 LWW, but when Ricky beats him, he is suddenly reduced to ‘non-entity’ status.

Since Pacman was already recognized as being a better fighter than Hatton, and was expected to beat him, I fail to comprehand exactly why the actual event of him beating Ricky has propelled Ricky to ‘bum’ status? Surely it just reinforces the belief that Ricky deserved to be exactly where he was, ie- lower than Pac, and lower than a lot of others. I don’t buy into the practice of completely disregarding fighters because they lose a fight to a better fighter, especially when we already knew Pac was a better fighter.

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 4, 2009 6:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

It wasn't just that he lost

Hatton got crushed. Like a tin can. Pac made him look like some dude off the street that took the fight on a week’s notice after an injury.

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on May 4, 2009 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But Pac would have done that to practically anyone from 130 to 154;

so I fail to see why Ricky’s status is so badly effected. That fight said more about just how fucking good Pacquaio is than how supposedly bad Hatton is, in my opinion. It was Pac being so good that made Hatton look so bad, not the other way round.

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 4, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well for me, you also have to factor in Lazcano. The Hispanic Causing Panic was basically screwed out of a chance to finish Ricky off and knock him out…. the shoelace-tying thing was nonsense. And Collazo beat him, but got hosed as well.

So those are two gimmies Hatton got, without anyobody raising too much of a fuss. His undefeated record was rescued against Collazo and he was saved by some shananigans when Juan tested his chin. But Manny blew his chin up in less than six minutes. Without a chin, I don’t think Ricky is a top twenty fighter anymore.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on May 4, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And actually, I mis-spoke. You could argue Floyd comes back in at #1, but to me he doesn’t, so he won’t be fighting a #1 in July either. (At least IMO.)

by SC on May 4, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know, I had Diaz in my top twenty even after his loss to Campbell, my reasoning being that it was really horrific, incompetent cut work that beat him rather than Campbell. If I think there is a legitimate excuse, I am willing to give the fighter the benefit of the doubt, but only once. When Marquez put him away, that was it. Juan Diaz is a very good fighter, but that’s it. He’s not P4P one of the best in the sport. Neither is Nate, at this point.

You could make a similar case for Kelly Pavlik. If you take the Hauser article at face value (and not part of some pre-arranged Bob Arum cover story, which is possible) then Pavlik was sick with brochitis and on several medications when he was fighting Hopkins, and ten pounds above his weight class. So that’s his “benefit of the doubt” for me. However, if some other fighter comes along and gives him a beating like that, forget it… Pavlik is out of the P4P picture.

With Hatton, there are no excuses with this fight. He was fighting in his weight class, wasn’t coming off a war, wasn’t sick, wasn’t the victim of bad corner work and had plenty of time to train and prepare. And he was just destroyed. Some people say “well, he only got beaten by the best in the game.” That’s true, but what s also true is that Hatton probably wouldn’t have gooten the chance to face them if he wasn’t Ricky Hatton and didn’t attract the big British fan base. I can think of many other fighters who would and did do better against Floyd and Manny… and at the very least would not have gotten knocked out in two rounds.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on May 4, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

BTW

I think the list is great but if you have Raffy Marquez on there you have to have Izzy. He will be back. And I think he will still be great. The year layoff for his eye is what he needed to heal his brains and body anyways. Marquez hasn’t stepped in the ring since the fight either so you can’t really use the Izzy is out of the fight game claim on that one.

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on May 4, 2009 8:09 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah but

Marquez has a fight scheduled for later in the month. There are whispers that Vasquez isn’t coming back at all.

I would have been interested to see where Floyd places on the list, now that he’s unretired.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on May 4, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Joint #1?

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 4, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If I’d have put Floyd in, he’d be at #2. His record isn’t as good as Pacquiao’s. It’s just not.

by SC on May 4, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also,

I’d have Valero in my personal top 20. The man is frighteningly good. Rather than look like I’m just flaming your top 20, though, I’ll attempt to put together my own, for your perusal, in the near future….. If that’s cool. :)

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on May 4, 2009 10:44 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Valero is slowly but surely winning me over. I still don’t think he’s beaten anyone too good, but hopefully he’ll get his chances sometime soon.

by SC on May 4, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Go ahead

I wouldn’t have Valero there, but a lot of that is because I base my top 20 a lot more on records than on head to head.

Vogt early, Vogt often.

by Brickhaus on May 4, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You have to use some head to head or the guys from Germany would dominate the list

They stay in Germany fighting guys way below their level and pile up the wins. I talking about guys like Sergiy Dzinziruk, Felix Strum, Zsolt Erdei, and guys like that. They have great record but have fought maybe 3 or 4 good fighters between them.

by TXroyal on May 4, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You leave Dzinziruk out of this! He was apparently ready to come fight Kirkland, but…well.

by SC on May 4, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Boxing isn't Baseball

Numbers don’t tell the whole tale.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on May 4, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well numbers don’t tell the whole tale anywhere.

by SC on May 4, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m just saying you have to see the fights. As always, there are many protected and padded prospects and fattened calfs running around with records like 17-0 who, when swallowed by a real fighter, will serve to inflate that real fighters opponents W-L. You look at guys like Mario Veit and it’s clear what is going on. But it’s not always so clear.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on May 4, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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