The Manny/Floyd/Cotto Triangle
by Chaos100 on May 8, 2009 2:14 PM EDT
49 comments
This is not going to be a hugging session for any one fighter, or even for more than one fighter. I am simply going to ask a question, and pre-empt your responses with my own brief thoughts. I hope you all understand that this is as much to attempt to answer the question in my own head as it is to create debate, or at least to provide a little more perspective.
In recent(ish) boxing triangles, it has often occurred that A beats B, B beats C, then almost counter-intuitvely, C goes on to beat A. It happened with Hopkins/Taylor/Pavlik, also with Hopkins/Jones/Tarver, and other examples that are well enough known to you all that I won't patronize you by naming them, or even attempting to, exhaustively.
As we as boxing fans all know, there is a massive outcry right now for Pretty Boy Floyd Mayweather to fight Manny Pacquiao. It's the one we all want. SC said somehting himself recently along the lines of "I don't care what else happens, what other fights are made, I just want to see Manny/Floyd" (I paraphrase, sorry SC...)
There is also a hell of a lot of talk about Manny fighting Miguel Cotto. Cotto obviously has to go through Clottey first, but I am assuming he will, and I would be willing to bet that most other serious fans would agree with me. Aside from a fight which I somewhat ashamedly still have in my top 5 fights of all time, Cotto has never been beaten. Whether or not Margarito cheated in that fight does not take away from its majesty when considered all on its own; that was a truly great fight, from both men. It may not be the popular thing to say, but I still watch that fight with a sense of awe. I digress.I do not want this post to turn into a debate about Toni, and I hope that will be respected. I only mention the fight at all to highlight Cotto, and his place at my boxing table. I said at the time that I did not feel Cotto should be discredited in any way for losing that fight, as it was a great war of attrition, a great spectacle, and only with hindsight can we retrospecively name it worthless. I do not believe it was worthless, it showed, whether Toni was cheating or not, the sheer class of Cotto, and even under that sort of duress and fatigue, he was awesome.
Anyway,I said this would not be a hugging session, and I will now attempt to refrain from that poor practice for the rest of this post. :)
Basically, my gut feeling tells me that if Manny fights Cotto, he will be beaten. I also do not subscribe to the idea right now that Cotto would beat Floyd. Yet although the logical reasoning is then to assume that were Floyd and Manny to sign up and lace up, Floyd would be too good for Manny.
This is my problem.
I really believe that Manny would beat Floyd.
Now, since Cotto is not a massive amount bigger than Manny, I cannot attribute my leaning toward him to that factor, and as far as all the other fundamentals go, Manny probably has the advantage. Yet I think Cotto beats Manny.
So, if this triangle were ever to materialize, which way do you see it going? I remember SC asking something similar a while back regarding Nate Campbell, Juan Manuel Marquez and one other. It may have even been Pacquiao, but I wouldn't be able to say with certainty.
I personally have it something like;
Pacquiao bt Mayweather SD-12 (I'm assuming this fight could be made at 143/144)
Cotto bt Pacquiao KO-9 (This fight would have to be at 147, since Cotto would never come down)
Mayweather bt Cotto UD-12 (at 147,obviously!)
I'd like others' thoughts on this, if possible, the more the merrier.
FanPosts are user-driven content written by members of Bad Left Hook, and are generally not the work of our editors or staff members. FanPosts do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Bad Left Hook.
1 recs |
49 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
Without going too far into specifics just so I have some fresh material if it ever comes about…ah, fuck it: Pacquiao knocks Mayweather on his ass into a ball of confusion about what just happened. Pacquiao stops Mayweather.
Pacquiao beats Cotto by decision
Mayweather beats Cotto — close. very close.
I watched the Margarito/Cotto fight again today.
I may be well off, but I don’t think the shot that really troubled Cotto in that fight, the left uppercut, would be in evidence if he fought Pac. Not saying Pac can’t throw it, but Margarito was so much bigger than Cotto that the angle and timing were really awkward for him.
I see Cotto punching really hard, and he is no slouch either. Manny would not be able to do to him what Toni did, in my opinion, and sooner or later he would catch up with Pac.
Starange though, cos I don’t underestimate Floyd’s power or timing, either. I just see Manny going straight through him for most of the fight.
Mayweather possibly too slick for Cotto in my view.
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Cotto-Margarito holds no relevance for me whatsoever. Plus I don’t think Cotto would have the same idea. I mean I’ll ignore Margarito’s bullshit and focus on Cotto: He was fighting well, or so we thought, but he kept getting hit and backing himself into the ropes. Even before that was clearly wearing on him thanks to the great stamina of The Cinderfistella Man, in hindsight it was dumb. Mosley took part of the Cotto plan (to box and move) and stayed the hell off the ropes, which ultimately is what doomed Cotto, IMO. That and, y’know…
Cotto would try to hook and smother Manny to death, but I don’t think he’s fast enough (and he’s plenty quick, really) to get Manny in the bad spots long enough to put a serious hurt on him. Cotto’s not a one-punch guy any more than Hatton was, and Cotto is no bigger than Pacquiao. There is like zero size difference there. I think Pacquiao is a much better, faster, more well-rounded and maybe even stronger fighter than Cotto is at this point. I don’t see Cotto being able to beat him, and he’d damn sure need to hire a world-class trainer for that one instead of his nutritionist or his uncle. Freddie Roach and Michael Moorer did a marvelous job on the Hatton fight, obviously, and they’d do it again for Cotto.
As far as Manny-Floyd goes, if that happens and nothing crazy changes between now and then, mark it down: I will pick Pacquiao to stop Floyd. He will overwhelm him. Floyd won’t be countering, he’ll be covering because he doesn’t know what to do. You can’t block Manny’s tsunami of punches — not all of them.
Mayweather I think beats Cotto on slickness. Floyd’s bigger than Cotto and Miguel would have to really bust his body up to slow him down, or he could lose really big. I don’t think he WOULD lose big, though, because he’s too determined and Floyd wouldn’t have Terminator hands by the 9th round. He’d make a damn good go of it. A couple years ago I would’ve picked Floyd to rout him.
by SC on May 8, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
if judah can nearly KO cotto
pacquiao can too
pacquiao tko 10 over cotto
pacquiao tko 10 over FMJ
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on May 8, 2009 6:20 PM EDT reply actions
also mayweather UD over cotto
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on May 8, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm never betting against Manny again
Manny by TKO over Floyd
Manny by TKO over Cotto
Manny/Roach by TKO over Floyd/Cotto in tag-team boxing match.
LOL
I was once having a conversation about Lennox coming out of retirement (about a year after he retired). The gist of the conversation was whether he could do a Honey Roy Palmer (‘Midnight Sting/Diggstown’), and rid the heavyweights of a lot of dead wood, all in one night.
My list of potential opponents was somehting like;
Audley Harrison (start easy!)
Danny Williams
Michael Sprott
Hasim Rahman (again!)
Sultan Ibragimov
John Ruiz
Sure there are some more obvious ones, but the idea was to find 10 fighters who he would have been able to KO within a 24 hour period (for those who haven’t watched the film!). I don’t think Hammerhead Hagan was in my list, but only Honey Roy could have beaten him anyway…. ;)
For the sake of argument, could you come up with a list of 10 fighters between 135 and 154 who you’d fancy Manny to beat, and would like to see him beat, in the same period?
I’ll get us started-
Julio Cesar Chavez Jr….
Junior Witter
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Hell, from the amount of damage he took, he could’ve done Diaz, Oscar and Hatton in the same night.
by SC on May 9, 2009 6:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I was trying to avoid saying that.... :)
But you are right.
I’m thinking more like; Who would you want to see pounded on by Manny (with intent to maybe end their BS, or to prove a point, rather than to actually maim or kill!!)
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
And so, what happens when he does get hit at 147? I think he goes to sleep. Listen, Pac’s Henry Armstrong, but Cotto’s a different breed at 147. That will be 25% more weight than Pac started his career at.
He’s been hurt, by Marquez at 20 lbs less weight. A legit welter punch is a whole different ballgame, and if and when he gets hit, I don’t think he handles it well.
The Triangle.
Pacquiao beats Cotto.
Mayweather beats Cotto & Pacquiao
"One Shall Stand. One shall Fall" - Optimus Prime
this guy has it right, Cotto would lose both fights because as Scarface would say “he’s not very hard to find”. as for Manny vs. Mayweather i think everybody is being swayed by the fact that Pacman was able to use his best punch to KO a guy who put his chin out there on a silver platter. Roach said he was going to leave his chin out with his right hand down, Manny was looking for it and Hatton obliged. Money Mayweather is the best technical fighter i have ever seen and i am confident he will not make that mistake.
"King of NBA Live '09"
Mayweather fights neither of them and Cotto beats Pac, that’s how I got it. I know you Brits want Pac to win every fight now that he beat on Hatton, but I’m pretty confident Cotto mashes him
And if Mayweather did fight them both?
Not trying to be an asshole, or come across as dictatorial at all, but the question was, what happens if all 3 fights in the triangle come to fruition? No point being hypothetical if you don’t allow for hypothetical situations… :)
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Icollins mate i dont think thats same of every Brit. I been a massive Pacquiao fan years now and on board the of “Manny Mania” train since he slapped MAB around years ago. I know he killed Hatton and that was a hard pill to swallow as im a bigger on Hatton. Still does not change a thing. Ill route for Pac against almost anyone (else).
Pacquiao has now destroyed three of my Fav all time fighters in Hatton, DLH and Morales. I picked all to beat him and now after over 20 years of watching boxing, I still dont know what the fuck is going on :)
Keep looking for Madeleine McCann. She is out there.
How I see it. Remember this is just my opinion
Pac would beat Floyd( so long as he doesn’t get caught by some lucky punch by Floyd) in a UD.I think Pac just overwhelms him, putting Floyd on the defensive side of things for much of the fight. I see many rounds being close but going to Manny for being more offensive.
Same thing for Cotto vs Floyd. Cotto will back him up to the ropes and just plain outwork him in close. Again,Floyd being too defensive and losing many rounds lying on the ropes trying to block and dodge through out the fight. I see a SD for Cotto here.
Pac vs Cotto, Here is where things get tricky for Cotto. Unlike Mayweather, I don’t see Manny being willing at all to go anywhere near the ropes where Cotto can unleash on him. Manny will be moving a whole lot in this fight and probably outpointing Cotto much of the way. But that will come to an end, Cotto will eventually catch up with him and finish the Pac-man off with a series of crushing blows. Cotto by KO
Interesting so far.
Of the 7 people to have voted on the whole ‘triangle’, the opinion is divided pretty evenly.
(1-1-1 ie- each fighter losing one and winning one)- Only myself so far
(Cotto 2 Pacquiao 1 Mayweather 0) = 2 votes
(Pacquiao 2 Mayweather 1 Cotto 0) = 2 votes
(Mayweather 2 Pacquiao 1 Cotto 0) = 2 votes
The fact that opinion is so divided just reinforces my point in my first post. This is a really difficult triangle to work out, and where normally my head and my heart tell me differing things, this time they are both united in picking the 1-1-1 situation.
I’d welcome more opinion on this.
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
A yo, Pacquiao beat a old man golden boy and knocked out stiff ass Hatton . Pac- man is not fast as Mayweather,pac-man will get knocked out in the 8th round cause Mayweather will out box PAC-MAN, It’s going to come down to Mayweather vs Cotto and the man from Caguas is going to win on a body shot knock out!
Cotto is patient. He will more than likely figure Manny out within 4 rounds. A technique I see him using often early on is his lunging lead left as a blind for the right hook to the body, a weave, then a left hook to the head. The odds of him fighting on the outside are alot more favorable and most likely to be done. The truth is, Manny is no good with an adaptive slick boxer. In my opinion, Marquez beat him twice. Going into this fight Manny will have a game plan that probably wont work due to the fact that Cotto does most of his homework patiently in the ring. Whereas with Manny, at this stage in his career, works soley with preconceived notions from training. I predict that Manny’s game plan will fall and he’ll ultimately turn into that bad balanced, clumsy, brawler he was when he fought Marquez. It’ll be a right that stuns him, followed by a flurry, after which Bayless will have to stop the fight. TKO 9
As for Cotto vs Mayweather, I do see this as an exceptionally great fight between 2 real welterweights. I see Mayweather coming into this fight thinking he’s got something to prove, so I believe he will be suprisingly agressive, leave himself open, then take a clean shot that knocks him down for the first time in his career. After which a modern day boxing classic is born as the two fighters exchange tirelessly round after round giving both Cotto and Mayweather the respect they deserve as true fighters. I know this is a bit counter intuitive, but isnt that what this article is about? I predict a great fight that will go all the way and ultimately end in an uncontested draw. Basically, everyone will be happy. Well, maybe not Mayweather.
Mayweather vs Pacquiao
I do not see this living up to any of the hype that it would most definitely receive. Mayweather will absolutely turn this fight into a slow boxing clinic that only the real fans can understand. I just dont believe that Pacquiao has the subtlety of style to even lure Mayweather into anything. This fight would be a perfect example of how a crowd pleasing style(Pacquiao) and a technical style( Mayweather) are just not worth the 60 bucks that the casual fans pay.
I am not a Pacquiao hater or anything, but victories over a dehydrated 35 year old De la Hoya, and a thirty year old alcoholic whose nickname is Ricky Fatton, doesnt warrant any serious place in the welterweight elite.
Ricky was off the juice for the pac fight
When will Pac Man get the worldwide recognition he deserves? Remember he has jumped six weight divisions, beating legitimate world champions with ease. His achievement has to be put in context, it is extremely rare and the mark of a special fighter. It’s fine to pick holes in his opponents. Yes, De La Hoya and Hatton emerged from their beatings as fighters in decline. It could be argued that he fought Erik Morales on his last legs. He made a mockery of a live lightweight opponent in David Diaz, and he beat Juan Manuel Marquez in his prime, but that decision will be contested by some as well.
Look at his resume! He has knocked legends off their pirch, gone into the ring and KO’d fighters naturally bigger than he, overwhelmed a master counter-puncher. His achievement cannot be dismissed as a false representation.
Should we not be celebrating Manny’s ability? He doesn’t just do the job does he? The guy is electrifying to watch, a showman, a ferocious puncher, a warriors chin. He’s so good it scares me to watch him.
Manny would out-punch, bamboozle and generally be too fiery for Floyd Mayweather. Manny has evolved dramatically, has a variety of lethal punches, some of which Floyd will struggle to detect. He moves much better, he could take Floyd out of his comfort zone. I’m not blinded by my love for Manny, I think he is the only fighter in the world who could do it to PBF. He would win a close decision, but not a controversial one.
Manny would TKO Cotto late in the fight, around the 11th and Floyd Mayweather should be able to fend off most of Cotto’s attacks and land enough crisp shots to outclass him and outpoint him by a few rounds. I still think Cotto is a beautiful boxer and a real problem for Floyd. Floyd would have to be at his cagey best, he would turn it into his fight. But I don’t think anyone can do the same to Manny.
You’re right no doubt. This is a unique situation in my boxing experience. I have never seen anyone show the ability to add 20-30% of body mass from where he debuted as a pro and be equally/more dominant as he was at the lower weights. It’s truly amazing.
But, I disagree on everything you picked except Pac over Mayweather.
I got Cotto over both of them based on a solid chin at 147 and the ability to damage to the body with the left hook. I think those two factors will lift him over both Pac and Mayweather.
lol @ solid chin.
pacquiao’s power >>>>>>>>>> judah’s power
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on May 11, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry man but
Cotto does have a solid chin at 147. Margarito hit him with everything he had and could not drop him. Cotto went to a knee both times fully aware of what was going on. Mosley couldn’t drop him. Torres put him down but, although Cotto was hurt he was pushed down. As for Judah nearly KOing Cotto, that simply never happened.Judah hit him with the biggest uppercut he could possibly throw in the one instance and his best straight left in another then finally his best right hook and at best, briefly stunned Cotto. In each case, Miguel was firing back and nowhere near being knocked out. Yes, Cotto has been hurt but who has ever just dropped Cotto? Please explain your theory on Miguel having a weak chin, I’d love to hear it.
by Full Throttle on May 11, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe he was thinking of Mayweather?
Judah did seem to hurt Mayweather early. There’s also speculation that the reason Cotto low blowed Judah was because he was hurt.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
"There’s also speculation that the reason Cotto low blowed Judah was because he was hurt."
Yes,thats true. But I just watched the fight again and the low blows were landed well after Miguel had recovered. It wasn’t like he was about to go down or something and he threw a low blow to avoid that. Cotto is just a body puncher and there is no real evidence in any other fight that he would do that to avoid being in trouble.
by Full Throttle on May 11, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
no speculation whatsoever
it is what it is. cotto was hurt and he pulled a punk move to get out of it
The Dude Abides
by battle axe of doom on May 12, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it's because I haven't seen Mayweather fight in a while
But when you consider what Pacquiao did to Oscar and Hatton, Mayweather’s last two wins just don’t seem that impressive. I felt like Mayweather pretty much dominated Oscar except when he took rounds off, but it took Mayweather several rounds before he started to land the counter that Manny was landing from the get-go. Floyd has trouble with southpaws and aggressive but cautious punchers. I think both Pacquaio and Cotto are quick enough that they would be able to avoid falling into Mayweather’s trap, and when Money’s under legitimate pressure, he tends to get too defensive and lose rounds. I’m not holding myself to it, but at this point I think both Cotto and Pacquiao would beat Mayweather.
That leaves me with Cotto-Pacquiao. Both are underrated boxers who have only improved in recent years. Cotto’s one of the rare fighters who doesn’t seem to have any problems with southpaws. Cotto’s also probably a bigger puncher than Hatton, and certainly a quicker one. However, he does have his own openings. I feel like it’s really a pick-em fight, and another one that probably would end in a KO. Pacquiao seemed bothered by a couple of Hatton’s punches that landed square in the first. Fortunately, he fought fire with fire and was able to execute the plan that Roach laid out for him. I don’t think there’s as distinct of a plan to beat Cotto as there was to beat Hatton, and none of his weaknesses are as glaring as Hatton’s. But I don’t feel confident enough that I would say that Cotto wins. I do think it would be an exciting firefight where the outcome is truly in question, which is why I’d rather see this one than Pac-Mayweather, and why I said that immediately after he beat Hatton.
Vogt early, Vogt often.
Assuming Pac Man can hack 147
I realise that when I pick Pac Man over Cotto, the logic is on very dodgy ground. Cotto is a crisp, quick, powerful puncher at 147 and although I believe Pacquiao hits very hard, I just can’t say how he would react to Cotto’s measured, but relentless assault and body punching. It would be an exhilerating fight, both have good chins. Pacquiao’s speed would allow him to get his shots off quicker in the exchanges and that could be key. But he would have to use intelligent movement and steer clear of Cotto’s assault to the body. This would be Pac Man’s biggest achievement, beating a primed Cotto at 147. Again it would defy belief, but I think he’s got it in him. I’ll still say stoppage in the 11th for the Filipino. Definitely 50/50 fight, or 55/45 Pac Man because of his speed? His lights-out power is now unquestionable.
I'm gonna have some trouble working out who is voting for what here!!
Would it be possible, SC, to set up a vote with 7 options?
1-1-1
MCP
MPC
CPM
CMP
PMC
PCM
If a link were included in there to this post, then the whole deabte wouldn’t have to be done again, but it would be easier to work out which way the general consensus went.
:)
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Obviously the draw isn't taken into consideration.....
and I know someone above has picked a draw, but to include the draw would make the vote a crazy one, with about 7 million options…
:)
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Yes, please SC
I would also like to see where this thing ends up. Or just keep it simple(and I say that loosely). If each of the three fighters were to meet,who would be the victor. Not worrying about KO’s,decisions or draws,just wins.
by Full Throttle on May 11, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I like the idea of ranking all 3 fighters based on the triangle happening. A lot of the responses would pick one guy to beat the other two, but I’m interested in who people think would win a fight between the other two, as well. :)
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Me too
I’m glad that you brought this triangle up. Not only because it is" probably" the most interesting one in the sport right now IMO but because I am also really interested in what people have to say about it. Just throwing stuff out there because I would love to see this go to a vote like you suggested. For the record, if I was to pick one guy out of the bunch it would be Cotto.
by Full Throttle on May 11, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
If I pick one;
It would probably be….
Jesus, I finished that sentence with Manny,then Floyd, then Manny again, then Cotto…..
I give up!!
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Mayweather beats both of them by decision, if he hasn’t lost anything, which I doubt he has. Pacman being a southpaw makes me think twice, because the southpaw stance does give Floyd some troubles, but I’ll still go with PBF. I think Cotto/Manny is a toss up, I honestly can’t play that one out in my head. Also Cotto has to get by Clottey and I think that is going to prove to be more difficult than a lot of people realize.
m,f,p.
i really think the u pick the 3 best fighters, but i also see miguel cotto winning both of them,i don’t have respect for floy, i do have respect for pacman, but he is not on miguel level and never will, forgive me 4 been so honest, but miguel have better power, better technic and better movement then both of them, i see miguel ko both of them by the 10th round or early then that….
krkean
i would rather say that manny would end up floyd mayweather’s carreer in 6 rounds…manny wouild also demolished cotto in round 5…cotto is not fast enough to catch up with manny..he is too slow as we have seen in the margarito fight..even margarito a slow folk was able to catch and battered cotto..using a plaster of paris type is not an issue in that fight if cotto is fast enough to elude margaritos punches…mosley destroyed margarito with his speed and power..what do you say? common.. can’t you see the fact that miguel cotto is too slow for manny? open up your eyes guys…cotto’s power punch would be useless if it won’t hit manny…all of you picked cotto to win against manny are psychotics..you are having delusions that that would happen…
“mosley destroyed margarito with his speed and power..what do you say? "
Well, I say Miguel Cotto outmanuevered and outboxed Shane Mosley with his counterpunching and ring savvy, and I would pick him to do it again. Miguel Cotto is a magnificient boxer who never looks like he’s doing as much as he actually is.
Manny puts forward enormous, explosive pressure, but despite the fact that he’s a more complete boxer these days he isn’t impossible to hit. It would be a matter of getting Cotto the right sparring partners. Miguel is very difficult to hit even for someone as fast as Shane, and even versus plasterized fists he never got sparked in his fight with Margarito. This would be a tough fight to predict.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
It would be a matter of getting Cotto the right sparring partners.
To prepare for Manny’s speed, I have no doubt that both Juan Manuel Lopez and Ivan Calderon would come in to spar with their countryman. Pacquiao-Cotto is a phenomenal fight on every level.
by SC on May 15, 2009 3:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I see the reverse triangle
Pac beats Cotto because he has the strength to do it.
Cotto beats Floyd, because Cotto will break Mayweather with body shots.
Floyd beats Pac, because its the signature win for Floyd and he makes sure he is at his best.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
