Ray Mercer's KO of Tim Sylvia
by SC on Jun 14, 2009 8:27 AM EDT
in Post-Fight Analysis
24 comments
Note just how much Sylvia really does look like a tree falling over. Timber!
If anyone rational wants to know my opinion of what this means in the great pretend war between MMA and boxing, it means absolutely nothing. Listen, I've never met Tim Sylvia. I genuinely assume he's a nice guy. But I have no idea what kind of mindset he has right now other than a guess that it's not very good. He came in over 300 pounds for this fight, which means he didn't train and didn't take this seriously, which is stupid. I know we all think the fight was a joke -- and it was, it should not have happened -- but he was going in there to do a job, a dangerous job, and he didn't prepare. His career is completely in shambles now.
I'm happy for Ray Mercer because I think he's a good dude, and I'm glad he got a payday and didn't get hurt or anything. I hope he doesn't think this means he's got a bright career left, because he's almost 50 years old. His career is over.
What we got was an old boxer knocking out a former UFC heavyweight champ that doesn't have a grip on his career anymore and is essentially left floating in space. I hope Tim Sylvia starts taking his career seriously now, and I hope Ray Mercer sees this as a nice final chapter and hangs up all sizes of gloves.
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I’m happy for Ray Mercer because I think he’s a good dude, and I’m glad he got a payday and didn’t get hurt or anything. I hope he doesn’t think this means he’s got a bright career left, because he’s almost 50 years old. His career is over.
What we got was an old boxer knocking out a former UFC heavyweight champ that doesn’t have a grip on his career anymore and is essentially left floating in space. I hope Tim Sylvia starts taking his career seriously now, and I hope Ray Mercer sees this as a nice final chapter and hangs up all sizes of gloves.
The above quote seems like a good summation of the entire ugly situation.
by Cannon Jacques on Jun 14, 2009 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sylvia Arlovski anyone?
Given the events of the last two weeks, this seems like a great 4 round Friday Night Fights opener.
by cyke on Jun 14, 2009 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
good god, no.
their third and last fight was one of the worst fights in history. no need to torture us anymore.
by sonofapsycho on Jun 14, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
On a serious note, this video shows one of the things that has always turned me off about MMA. Sylvia is clearly out and helpless on the ground, yet it looks as though Ray is allowed to dive on top of him and get one or two more free shots in.
Yes… I know that boxing has its share of late stoppages, and I don’t like those either. But, Mercer froze Sylvia like an ice cube: that fight was clearly over even before the back of Sylvia’s head banged the mat. Imagine if Tyson had been allowed to leap on top of Spinks and get in a few freebies after the KO. That would be like a public murder.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
by jrok on Jun 14, 2009 11:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Finish the fight
When you do it you force the ref to make the decision. In terms of longterm damage there is likely much less accumulated trauma BECAUSE of this.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jun 14, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not only do you stand the chance of suffering more trauma getting punched while you already out… it also makes for a lousy fight. If I wanted to see a fight that lasted ten seconds, I could watch two drunks go at it in a bar for free.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
by jrok on Jun 14, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
see…if you take one or two extra punches when you go to the ground it is exponentially less damaging than a guy getting knocked down 3-4 times over the course of a fight, being allowed to stand back up and continue and get hit with 400 punches over the course of 12 rounds.
Look, both sports are dangerous (and I love both to a sickening degree). But it’s not an argument that boxing can win that it is “safer” than MMA.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 14, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never said it was safer...
And I’m not trying to win any arguments for Boxing, either. I just said I don’t like watching guys get hit when they are unconscious. I didn’t say they should stand Sylvia back up… I said they should have stopped the fight.
And the risk of severe injury and death is certainly extreme if someone is taking a shot to the head while unconscious. If that’s the argument you want to have, it is dead on arrival. You see it happen in boxing sometimes too, where a guy is unconscious and hung up on the ropes, taking severe damage. Mercer did this to Morrison in the 90’s, back when Ray was still an elite fighter. Cooney did it too Shavers too… both of those fights went four or five punches too long.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
by jrok on Jun 14, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well fine...
yes, that is a part of the sport, guys sometimes take shots when they’re out. Taking any punch is bad for your health honestly. I’m not saying “I love guys getting hit when they’re out” by any means but it is a part of MMA (and if it doesn’t appeal to you that’s cool) where it can happen. The ref did a reasonably good job in this fight but he could have gotten in there quicker considering that Tim was out while he was still standing and the ref just kind of walked in.
Contributing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
http://CurseOfRonKarkovice.blogspot.com/
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 14, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
Honestly, the video is shaky and partially obscured, but when a 300 lb man keels over like that and you see the back of his head bounce off the canvas like a basketball… the fight is simply over. When a severe injury or death happens because a referee, for whatever reason, is too slow to protect a helpless fighter, Boxing, MMA or any other fighting sport that either of us loves takes a big hit.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
by jrok on Jun 14, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no realy way to compare levels of danger
MMA is still a relatively new sport, and no one will know for sure for another number of years. You will have to wait and see how the current stars are holding up in ten or twenty years to get a decent gauge of it. I like both sports alot, but there is absolutely no scientific backing to say MMA is safer than boxing, and anyone who says otherwise is full of shit. That argument was thrown out there to present MMA as a safe sport to facilitate its growth. They are both relatively dangerous sports, not unnecessarily dangerous, but dangerous none the less. Thats why its very important to have good commissions, refs, fight doctors etc making it as safe as possible.
Jrok’s argument is a valid criticism. Getting hit when you are out is certainly not good. Your body goes into a state of alert, and the person is at significantly greater risk at this time.
by Duan on Jun 14, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are more people who fight boxing than MMA… and some places like in Asia doesn’t even particularly have the medical safety protocols in case something goes wrong.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Jun 14, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on how you want to define "safer"
Which is really the crux of the issue. I completely agree both have their shortcomings and unique dangers, but this is relevant:
“the overall injury rate [excluding injury to the brain] in MMA competitions is now similar to other combat sports [involving striking], including boxing. Knockout rates are lower in MMA competitions than in boxing. This suggests a reduced risk of traumatic brain injury in MMA competitions when compared to other events involving striking.”
http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/18/v5combat-18.pdf
As previously mentioned, there are a variety of ways to skin this cat depending on how one measures safety, but its worth noting this study from Johns Hopkins suggests it is not bullshit to believe the risk of suffering TBI is higher in boxing.
by Luke Thomas on Jun 14, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont know anything about the credibility of that study...
but i have read several studies by reputable institutions that say the complete opposite. And just from being an observer of both sports i can tell you that the less KO’s point is non sense. The rate of concussions is also much higher in MMA. There was a study in the UK which compared traumatic brain injuries over a certain number of fights, and the rate was far higher in mma
by Duan on Jun 14, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UM
I’d like to see these studies you’ve read as are you’re questioning the credibility of a study done by the #1 or #2 medical institution in THE WORLD
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jun 14, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and I think i’ve seen that UK study and it was a complete load of horseshit. And I perfer good boxing to good MMA any day but that study was done by some anti-MMA medical advocate.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jun 14, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
eh lets be serious
It reads like mma propaganda. And lets be honest about it, a lot of these studies will not be unbiased. alot of the time they have ulterior motives rather than just presenting the facts. Thats from both sides of the argument by the way. I am not just saying that about the pro mma studies.
As i have said there is no way of knowing except by conducting very long term studies over a period of years. We wont know the full effects of damage done now possibly for another ten or twenty years. I have been a fan of MMA for a very long time, im in no way trying to bash it, but any of this “scientifically proven to be safer than boxing” stuff has no grounding in reality for the reason i already mentioned. a lot of ailments that result from severe head trauma dont present themselves until years into the future.
Again as i have said they are both relatively dangerous sports, and they each have problems which are unique to them. MMA fighters are at risk of more blunt force damage, where as boxers have more of an accumulative effect. That is easily proven from observing both sports. Look at the number of MMA fights which end with a guy out cold for several minutes, you see it far more than in boxing. Again, that is not a good sign. Its in fact a very severe concussion.
As i said, both have there own unique risks. And there is fair criticisms of both, but to say at this stage that one is proven to be safer than the other is preposterous.
by Duan on Jun 14, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OF COURSE brain injury rates will be lower in MMA
Half the fighters aren’t even trying to take the other guy’s head off. You’re not going to end up with brain trauma from wrestling. It just makes common sense.
That said, we’ll need to see what happens to these guys 30 or 40 years from now. Most of the effects from combat sports (and football) are long-term, and many of them don’t onset until late in life. I wouldn’t say MMA is safe, but probably isn’t any less safe than football or boxing or competitive cheerleading.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
by Brickhaus on Jun 15, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to even mention 36 minutes of trauma versus 25
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
by Brickhaus on Jun 15, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet that's all it is for now, belief.
“There are several limitations to this study.
First, the injuries reported were based on the
physical exams performed at ringside by the ringside
physician. No labs or radiologic studies were
ordered and no diagnoses were confirmed. The
incidence of injury in these fighters may have been
higher than reported.”
I think there are a few more variables that should be taken into account when measuring the rate of injury between MMA fighters and boxers, such as overall career duration and activity under various commissions. What’s clear is that both sports are quite dangerous, and the study linked above only begins to cover the risks shared by the two.
by keyz on Jun 14, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree….
I think why there has been more deaths within boxing and MMA is the weight lssue. Most of the deaths within boxing have come at the lightweight weight class( 135 lbs). The biggest and baddest mofo in MMA.. UFC doesn’t particular care for the smaller weight classes.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Jun 14, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most of them have come from obvious mismatches too
In terms of the total number of rounds boxed versus the opponents total. Moving from 15 to 12 rounds after the Kim incident was always a red herring in terms of improving safety. When you look at the history of ring deaths recorded over the last 60 years, they are mostly evenly spread across the rounds, with the majority having actually occurring in the middle rounds (6 through 8).
Duan is right. UFC/MMA does not yet have a long enough shelf life to examine either long term damage or rate of incident. My God, I just saw a guy named Shamrock fight that I remembered from the first or second UFC back in the nineties. That would be like Fireman Jim Flynn still fighting.
Most fight-related brain injuries, like PD and Parkinson’s, don’t fully manifest themselves until many years after the injuries took place. Mel Tayor is a perfect example of this. The real damage to his brain most likely occurred in the first Chavez fight, but he continued to fight on for several years. Here in 2009, he is an absolute mess, with real signs of dementia.
Also, there is a difference between cumulative, debilitating damage taken over a career and the danger of sudden death or severe injury posed by striking an unconscious or semi-conscious man in the head. Just because it hasn’t happened yet doesn’t mean it won’t… the sport isn’t even 20 years old yet.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
by jrok on Jun 14, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
insightful back and forth
Me personally, I agree with jrok that there’s just no need to jump on him after. The guy was clearly done. Maybe thats how it rolls in MMA, I don’t know. I guess that most people like actual fighting, not seeing a guy who’s gone down like that get beat on some more. But you know, I’m sure that MMA fights that are competitive are infinitely better anyway.
by BrianBrock on Jun 15, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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