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Cotto-Pacquiao mania starting early: Fight weights, trainers, and more

Hysteria for a potential clash between Manny Pacquiao and Miguel Cotto in November is already reaching a fever pitch.

Hysteria for a potential clash between Manny Pacquiao and Miguel Cotto in November is already reaching a fever pitch.

It seems almost certain already that on November 14 of this year, pound-for-pound king Manny Pacquiao will face Puerto Rican superstar Miguel Cotto in a bout that has Fight of the Year contender written all over it. Here we are in June, just four days removed from Cotto's debated, grueling win over Joshua Clottey, and the fires are already being lit.

Top Rank chief Bob Arum (promoter of both fighters) said it's up to Miguel Cotto now, and that the Pacquiao side has agreed in principle to take the fight. Arum also thinks he may be able to get the two sides to hammer out terms as early as this week, which seems wildly optimistic given the way negotiations can drag and how quickly minds change in boxing.

As for the weight, it won't be a full 147-pound welterweight limit, which it should be, but Manny Pacquiao and Freddie Roach call the shots. If you want to the money that comes with fighting Pacquiao, you have to bend a little, and Cotto seems willing to do so. Cotto wants to go no lower than 145. Pacquiao wants 144. It is what it is. I'm really sick of catchweight limits, though.

The floating rumor that Floyd Mayweather Jr. pulled out of his July 18 date with Juan Manuel Marquez to instead pursue a fight with Pacquiao has been shot down by Arum, who notes that Mayweather is "obligated to fight Marquez," and that if he pulled out and hoped to deal instead with Pacquiao, "everyone's going to get sued." You can be damn sure that Golden Boy would sue Mayweather and Top Rank if that were to happen, which could kick off a whole new cold war between boxing's two biggest firms.

Speaking of Golden Boy, they're doing their best to try to make Pacquiao-Shane Mosley happen, but it's just not going to. It's too late -- the Pacquiao-Cotto wheels are in motion, and that's a bigger money fight anyway, plus it's one where Arum gets to keep a lot more cash. Oscar de la Hoya says that nobody wants to fight Mosley, and that Cotto would have a harder time coming down in weight than would Shane. I don't know about the latter part -- it would be hell for either of them, and Mosley was asked if he could boil all the way down to 142. Plain and simple, Roach wants nothing to do with Shane Mosley, and I think that's the real sticking point. They don't see Cotto as being quite so dangerous, so they'll give him a couple more pounds.

Richard Schaefer and Bernard Hopkins also think Pacquiao is avoiding Mosley.

Who trains Cotto is another question. With Evangelista Cotto firmly out of the picture, Cotto went with Joe Santiago for the Clottey fight, but everyone knows that isn't a permanent position. Emmanuel Steward contacted Bob Arum about the job, and Arum told Steward to talk to Cotto. I think it's a horrible fit, to be honest, and a large part of that is I just don't think Manny's all that great of a trainer anymore. The absolute best fit for Cotto would be Freddie Roach, in my view, but that's not happening for obvious reasons. There are a lot of better, cheaper trainers than Manny Steward in boxing today, and I'm not bashing the man. He's a Hall of Fame trainer for a reason.

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Heres the deal

F.R. thinks that Manny can blow Cotto away with speed just like he did DLH and Hatton. Mosley is way bigger and may be nearly as quick as Pac. If Pac is fighting a guy that much bigger that is an excellent boxer and lighting quick with a great chin… It will be a long night. I think Pac will KO Mayweather but Mosley is a different beast all together. We know Mosley and Cotto both have solid chins and bodies… But I agree with Roach that Pac is better off going after the more powerful but decidedly slower Cotto instead of matching speed for speed with a bigger man.

Gimme 1 round!

by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jun 17, 2009 11:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

indeed

Mosley is different beast. However I wouldn’t underrate his power either, which is still there at 147. Margarito’s hands can be questioned, but his chin cannot and Mosley was able to drop him and stop him, something Cotto and many others were unable to do.
In terns of power I think Cotto and Mosley are very close. I might even give the edge to Shane at 147.

by missmanners on Jun 18, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Shane’s stronger than Cotto.

by SC on Jun 18, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There it is. I should have said that instead of beating around the bush.

I hope Shane stays at 147 as he is a much different and lesser fighter at 154.

by missmanners on Jun 18, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it’s a horrible fit, to be honest, and a large part of that is I just don’t think Manny’s all that great of a trainer anymore.

I can’t really take much issue with this, but only because I think Steward is a horrible trainer for Miguel Cotto. Steward is still a great trainer, but he doesn’t strike me as a guy who can help with polished boxer with finished skills… like George Benton, Eddie Futch or Kenny Weldon could. Steward is and has always been a great trainer for a very particular kind of boxer, and if the clay isn’t his brand, your not going to fit the mold. Cotto doesn’t for physical and technical reasons, and Jermain Taylor didn’t for mental ones.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Jun 17, 2009 11:39 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

And Andy Lee's excuse?

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jun 18, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

I thought he took Andy Lee pretty far. Cintron and Taylor too. None were really the model of the long, strong, mentally mature types that would fully fit into the Kronk system.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Jun 18, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

really with Taylor?

The two of them were horrible together. Taylor did nothing but get worse under Steward’s care. Manny did nothing positive for him.

by SC on Jun 18, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

You won’t hear me saying he turned Taylor into a giant-killer, but as far as I’m concerned no one could… certainly not Pat Burns either.. although you could make the argument he was a better fit for Taylor. But apart from some of things Jermaine would do instinctively no matter who trained him (telegraph his left on the 3-4-3, retreat in straight lines from power, herk & jerk all of his stamina away in the first five rounds, etc) I thought he improved Jermaine’s jab andcounterpunching to a noticeable degree. The problem was, it wouldn’t hold up a whole fight… you could see Taylor’s camp disintegrating in fast forward during the first Pavlik bout.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Jun 18, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hell I thought you could hear them dying in the Winky Wright fight, and the wheels REALLY start to come off when he fought Cory Spinks. In the Spinks fight, I remember Steward basically just crapping on Taylor in the corner: “This is why I wanted you to fight Miranda.” The Pavlik fight just nailed the coffin shut.

I also realize now that I stated my feelings on the Taylor-Steward relationship like it was Manny’s fault. I don’t believe that. They were awful together and neither of them got the best out of the other guy, and Steward seemed downright disgusted with him at parts of their fights together.

by SC on Jun 18, 2009 4:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"This is why I wanted you to fight Miranda."

Did he literally say that? I honestly don’t remember, but it sure does sound like vintage Manny…. I mean that in the worst possible way. I’ve always thought Manny was a much better gym trainer than a cornerman. He doesn’t exactly lose his mind in the corner like some guys, but I’ve often caught him saying really non-helpful things that seemed more geared towards his analyst job… like he’s forgotten why he’s there. “This is why I wanted you to fight Miranda”? I mean, you know, he’s not fighting Miranda. How about helping him fight the dude he is fighting.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Jun 18, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, he literally said it.

by SC on Jun 18, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Steward is still a great trainer, but he doesn’t strike me as a guy who can help with polished boxer with finished skills

He helped Wlad.

by SC on Jun 18, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with the gist of the point though

That there’s a certain type of fighter with certain tools and skills that are good for Steward, but he’s pretty much one size fits all. He’s great with tall fighters with defensive flaws. He worked wonders on Lennox, Wlad, Hearns, and I think he even helped Kermit Cintron improve quite a bit. But Cotto’s not tall, doesn’t have problems fighting on the inside, etc. Turning him into a stand-up outside boxer isn’t going to help anything. He needs someone to get him to move his head on the inside, and start throwing combos with intent like he used to.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jun 18, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You know who is a perfect fit for Manny?

Kelly Pavlik. He would murder every last ounce of Pavlik’s popularity, though.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Jun 18, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Steve Cunningham would be another good one

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jun 18, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yup

That’s a “like a glove” situation.

by SC on Jun 18, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He tried, you know

I mean, Manny made a secret play for Pavlik that was so ill-kept it was practically a press release. This was back when I was still kind of wondering who the f*** Jack Loew was and if he had a cache of knockout artists stashed in a Youngstown storage shed. Nope.

And of course Pavlik was going to turn Manny down… Steward was a little naive in that sense. “I just beat your world champion, twice, and now you want me to hire you? Get lost.” But yeah, the shoe fits, and Manny could see that from a mile away.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Jun 18, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know he tried. I thought Kelly should’ve probably taken it. But as you said, no one on earth would’ve expected him to. Manny had a tough sell after crapping on Pavlik and losing to him and Jack.

by SC on Jun 19, 2009 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He has made a habit of crapping all over fighters he wants to train

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jun 19, 2009 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I guess there’s some psychology to that. “I know what you’re doing wrong. I’m the guy that can fix it. I’m a Hall of Famer.”

by SC on Jun 19, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I never thought Wlad was "finished" though

In fact, he almost used to lead with his chin. Just like Lennox, he learned to stop doing that, and he became what he is today…. a dull but dominant champ who builds his entire fight around the jab.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Jun 18, 2009 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i remember DLH’s father saying that Steward did a lot of shooting hoops/taking days off whilst training DLH. dunno, 2nd or 3rd hand info, but whether Jermain just doesn’t listen, or Steward’s not the trainer he was….i don’t think him and cotto are a fight either….and yeah, Mosley is more dangerous to Pacquiao than Cotto, IMO anyway

Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei.
http://theworldsoldestsport.blogspot.com/

by theworldsoldestsport on Jun 17, 2009 11:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm gonna give the same name I brought up when he first fired Evangelista

Manny Siaca. Puerto Rican. Old school. Good at training footwork and movement and combination punching. Has trained 25 beltholders, including a few legends (i.e. Edwin Rosario, Sammy Serrano, Leo Gamez) and one who’s become a damn good trainer himself ( Eddie Mustafa Muhammad).

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jun 18, 2009 12:15 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Is there any reason Cotto couldn't go to Nazim Richardson?

Nazim is, for my money, second only to Roach (and that is debatable, too) in the sport right now. I don’t know, though, whether there would be any ‘other’ reasons why Cotto specifically could not work with him. (I’m deliberately not trying to over-emphasize the race issue here, but it did cross my mind)

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on Jun 18, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This was a serious question, by the way.

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on Jun 18, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just assume the personalities wouldn't work

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jun 18, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fully agree

this catchweight shit is getting totally out of hand. Step up to welter if you really want to fight these guys Manny.

Boxing is like jazz. The better it is, the less people appreciate it.
-George Foreman

by jsims2 on Jun 18, 2009 2:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Let me further discuss my newfound and quickly rising hatred of these catchweight fights. Part of my brain goes, “You know what? Fuck it, we’re getting the good fight this way.” But with this one I can see Cotto being weak, so how good of a fight do I really get? Plus there are 17 goddamn weight classes in boxing and apparently that’s still not enough. It was the moronic Diaz-Malignaggi weight that really pushed me over the edge. 138.5? Fuckin’ seriously?

by SC on Jun 18, 2009 4:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In another way, it could be the long term making of the sport.

If the weight classes stop mattering, cos the best fights will be made at whatever weight the fighters choose, then the alphabet straps become redundant. “Hey, WBA/WBO/IBF/WBC (delete as appropriate) we’re not going to pay your sanctioning fees, we’ll just fight at 140.5 lbs instead…”

It could end up becoming a situation where fighters keep on fighting, but if they want THE world title at any weight, they have to fight at that weight to compete for it. At the moment the cart is pulling the horse, with the belts/weight classes meaning more than the boxers involved, rather than the other way round. The fighters should define the sport, not the sport, with all it’s politics and split factions, defining the boxers.

I can foresee (somewhat hopefully yet also, I realize, optimistically) a future where the Ring belt is the only recognized World Championship, and to fight for said world title in that weight class, two fighters both have to make that weight, but otherwise, boxers are free to fight who they like, at any weight they like, in order to best advance their careers. The whole concept needs touching up a bit, and there would have to be more regulation than I have implied, but it would be hedonistic compared to what we have at the moment, with politics and debates over catchweights becoming more reportable and debatable than the fights themselves.

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on Jun 18, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Meh. Catchweights have been around forever in the sport. I mean, it’s just a mutually agreed upon weight. A 145lb fight is still a Welterweight fight, no matter how you slice it. A 145lb guy was a Welterweight in 1918 and he’s a Welterweight now.

I do agree that it is becoming stupid to the point of comedy, though. I mean, if you are the type of physiological specimen that can target 138.5 and hit it on the head, my guess is you’ll still be okay at 138 or 139. Really, it seems more like fodder for lawyers and managers than any kind of reality. “See kid? I went in there and fought for you… he wanted 139 but I got you 138.5. I am doing my job.”

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Jun 18, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They may have been around forever, but that doesn’t make them any more defensible in my book. It’s like having the Cowboys and Steelers play with 10 minute quarters. Or 10 guys. Or 3 downs. Sure, they probably won’t get sanctioned by the NFL, but it’s still a football game, right? If boxing is ever going to get serious about having legitimate titlists, they (obviously) need to get rid of all the various sanctioning bodies and replace it with a single one and enforce the rules more strictly. It’s one thing I think UFC does well.

Boxing is like jazz. The better it is, the less people appreciate it.
-George Foreman

by jsims2 on Jun 18, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Collective action is a lot easier when you're basically inventing your market from scratch

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jun 18, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This would be a great fight, but I think Cotto has the edge in this one.

The #21 is Lord

by ddog28 on Jun 19, 2009 2:34 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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