Rankings Update: Pound-for-Pound Top 20
by Scott Christ on Jul 25, 2009 10:42 AM EDT
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There have been some changes since our May 3 update of the P4P top 20 list, so getting an update in seems wise right now. There are really no fights before September that should change much here.
| Rank | Fighter | Weight Class | Last Rank |
|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | Manny Pacquiao | Junior Welterweight | 1 |
| 2 | Juan Manuel Marquez | Lightweight | 2 |
| 3 | Paul Williams | Junior Middleweight | 3 |
| 4 | Bernard Hopkins | Light Heavyweight | 4 |
| 5 | Shane Mosley | Welterweight | 5 |
| 6 | Miguel Cotto | Welterweight | 6 |
| 7 | Juan Manuel Lopez | Junior Featherweight | 11 |
| 8 | Nonito Donaire | Flyweight | 13 |
| 9 | Ivan Calderon | Junior Flyweight | 7 |
| 10 | Hozumi Hasegawa | Bantamweight | 17 |
| 11 | Chad Dawson | Light Heavyweight | 9 |
| 12 | Kelly Pavlik | Middleweight | 10 |
| 13 | Arthur Abraham | Middleweight | 12 |
| 14 | Chris John | Featherweight | 14 |
| 15 | Rafael Marquez | Featherweight | 15 |
| 16 | Celestino Caballero | Junior Featherweight | 16 |
| 17 | Vic Darchinyan | Junior Bantamweight | 7 |
| 18 | Edgar Sosa | Junior Flyweight | 20 |
| 19 | Mikkel Kessler | Super Middleweight | 19 |
| 20 | Tomasz Adamek | Cruiserweight | 18 |
The Top Five: Everything stays the same. Pacquiao and Marquez currently rule the sport, at least until Mayweather's September 19 return. The gap between Pacquiao and Marquez is much closer than a lot of more casual fans really realize. The two are separated by one point on six judges' scorecards are two fights. Mayweather remains unranked because we don't know what he'll look like upon his return. For the record, Israel Vazquez also stays off this list for the same reason.
I have Paul Williams rated higher than just about anyone does, but I think he's earned it. He had one bad night, and he avenged that loss in under a round against a good fighter. Since then he has dominated both Winky Wright and Verno Phillips, one of whom is a former P4P contender and the other a guy who was never stopped inside the distance over 20 years before he met Williams. Tall Paul is a machine and he's still improving.
Aging Hopkins and Mosley round out the top five, because neither is aging as much as might be suggested by their birth certificates.
Six Through Ten: I probably rank Cotto a little higher than most do, too. He's lost one fight and it's got a lot of question marks now. He's come back to destroy Michael Jennings and gut out a tough fight against Joshua Clottey, another really good fighter. Juan Manuel Lopez continues to climb for me; I don't think there's a fighter at 122 or 126 I would pick over him. Nonito Donaire hasn't been on fire since manhandling Vic Darchinyan, but he's done nothing but win when he his fights went through. And even though Vic just lost at 118, that win has done nothing but look better. Ivan Calderon drops a couple spots because his age is starting to show. Hozumi Hasegawa makes a big jump into the top ten; the guy is a steamroller at 118 right now.
Eleven Through Fifteen: Dropping out of the top 10 just due to the rise of others are light heavyweight titlist Chad Dawson and middleweight champion Kelly Pavlik. Dawson will have a chance to make a move up if he can beat Glen Johnson convincingly in their rematch. Pavlik needs a big opponent. Arthur Abraham, Chris John and Rafael Marquez all stay steady. Abraham is moving up to 168 for the Super Six, a tournament that could impact this list greatly.
Sixteen Through Twenty: Celestino Caballero still isn't a favorite of mine, but his spot is earned, and he's trying all he can to fight Juanma Lopez. Darchinyan takes a big tumble thanks to a bad night at a weight where his power didn't seem to carry. It wasn't a horrible loss or anything, but these lists are really competitive. There isn't much separating most of these guys. Edgar Sosa jumps two spots and may be on the cusp of overtaking Calderon as the top dog at 108. Mikkel Kessler and Tomasz Adamek round out the list. Kessler has a mandatory before the Super Six, and Adamek is contemplating a move to heavyweight in search of a big fight. It's a shame that we may never see Adamek-Cunningham II if that's the case.
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marquez, mosley, cotto and especially lopez are way overrated. lopez has beaten nobody really of significance (that fights in his own division) to gain entry in top 20. he has all the potential in the world but so did victor ortiz. p4p is not really based on potential.
marquez looked like a half shot fighter in the diaz fight, mosely just outclassed and matched up perfectly plasterfists, before that he was beat up by cotto and cotto lost his last fight to many, many observers.
a quick top 10 from me is:
1. pacman
2. hopkins
3. paul williams
4. isreal vasquez
5. donaire
6. mosley
7. jm marquez
8.pavlik
9. hasegawa
10. calderron
You said Mosley was way overrated, but you only moved him down one spot from where Scott had him. I’m confused.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
yea
not many you can justify ahead of him at the moment because of pavliks inactivity and lack of big fights and bad loss vs hopkins. same for hasegawa and baby boy.
also overrated in the fact that people actually think he stands a chance against someone like pacman. he stands zero to none at beating him.
by sonofapsycho on Jul 25, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I know Hopkins is a Hall of Fame fighter, but I think he is getting too much love in the various P4P rankings. Pavlik moved up 2 weight classes and has a style perfectly suited to Bernard. For me, P4P status indicates an ability to take on a variety of opponents- certainly true of Hopkins in his prime, but he is 44 years old and has lost 3 of his last 6 bouts. Against someone with excellent hand speed and a good work rate, I think Hopkins is beatable, too much so for a top 5 ranking. I’d have him in the 7-10 range.
Quick thoughts:
- I’d have Bute towards the end of the top 20, in addition to Kessler
- Given the alternatives, I think Donaire belongs in the 3-5 range
- W Klitschko would be in the 11-20 range somewhere
For me, P4P status indicates an ability to take on a variety of opponents
All it means is best boxers. That’s it. There is nothing more to it.
by Scott Christ on Jul 25, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions
What is the “best boxer?” I guess I’m missing how easy this is to determine in the P4P context.
by drivlikejehu on Jul 25, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
To me the best boxer is determined by
If you can come into the fight against a naturally larger boxer and beat the larger man. That is the Pound for Pound that makes up the PfP arguement.
Valuev would be near the bottom of the PfP arguement. Wlad has good enough skills that he would be top 30 no matter what class he’s at.
Pacman I’d take a bet for him to beat Pavlik if the fight were on. And he’s not even cutting water weight at 147.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jul 25, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Wlad would be top 3
no matter what class he’s at – With perhaps the exception of 168
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jul 25, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
If you can come into the fight against a naturally larger boxer and beat the larger man. That is the Pound for Pound that makes up the PfP arguement.
It really isn’t. That has basically nothing to do with it. It just means best fighters regardless of weight.
by Scott Christ on Jul 26, 2009 7:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree with SC
The quoted statement has a problem, which is this;
If Ivan Calderon fought Nikolai Valuev, and lost a narrow SD, would that make him P4P a worse fighter?
I know that’s pushing the extremes a bit, but if the principle exists for that (hypothetical) match-up, then it also exists for more likely fights.
P4P is for me a simple question of if all fighters were magically transfigured to the same size, who would be the best?
Wlad doesn’t get in the debate, because if Floyd Mayweather (or Calderon, or Kessler) were 6’5’’ and 18 stone, Wlad would be destroyed. Same goes if you shrink Wlad down to their respective sizes.
If all fighters were naturally 6’ tall and 168 pounds, my list would be;
Manny Pacquiao
Paul Williams
Juan Manuel Marquez
Bernard Hopkins
Miguel Cotto
Ivan Calderon
Nonito Donaire
Vic Darchinyan
Shane Mosley
Kevin Johnson
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Kevin “Kingpin” Johnson is my protest against fate conspiring against my inclusion of James Kirkland, who would almost certainly be in this list by now.
Here’s hoping for leniancy from the judge.
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
But see if Wlad wasn't 6'6" 245
fighting other 245 lb punchers his chin wouldn’t be an issue and he’d be even faster than he is now. You’re letting his physical attributes effect you in a negative way.
I look at it as if you’re small for your weight class and dominating you belong on a PfP list no matter what. If you’re big and you have amazing skills despite that you probably belong on a PfP list also.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jul 27, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Arbitrary
How do you determine who the ‘best fighters’ are? I don’t think its an answer to say they are the ‘best.’ You either have some way of judging that, or your ranking is purely arbitrary.
And if it’s arbitrary, I don’t see the point in putting one together at all.
by drivlikejehu on Jul 26, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
That would be why there is no such thing as a 'definitive' P4P list....
And as for the ‘point of putting one together at all’… that’s what boxing fans do. We chat, we cross swords over matters of opinion, and we find different ways to look at the participants of our sport. It’s all part and [arcel of being a boxing fan, and we love it. :)
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
Well yeah, but how do you disagree if the other person’s argument is not backed up by any justification? Then it’s just a he said, he said. I think its more interesting when arguments are supported…
by drivlikejehu on Jul 26, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
How do you determine who the ‘best fighters’ are?
You watch them fight and judge for yourself.
I don’t think its an answer to say they are the ‘best.’
Look, everyone’s free to determine P4P or whatever in any way they wish, but the entire P4P idea was started because clearly the best fighter in the world — the guy who could beat everyone else — is the world’s best heavyweight. The whole thing is just deciding who the best fighters are (in your opinion) regardless of their weight class. There was never any other intention.
You either have some way of judging that, or your ranking is purely arbitrary.
Of course it’s arbitrary. This isn’t basketball where everyone plays everyone and then they hold a playoffs every season to determine the champion. Guys can go around calling themselves “champions” and fighting the crap competition that Zsolt Erdei does, or they can be Sven Ottke.
And if it’s arbitrary, I don’t see the point in putting one together at all.
Because it’s fun to discuss. That’s really all there is to it. I know a lot of folks don’t have Williams and Cotto as high as I do, and I respect that. Lots of people would have Calderon higher, I respect that. Hasegawa isn’t in a ton of top tens, and I respect that. It’s just enjoyable to talk about boxing. I like boxing.
by Scott Christ on Jul 27, 2009 6:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Guess it depends on whether you're talking H2H or resume
Calderon clearly has a better resume than either, but he’s looked very beatable lately.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Granted it’s the only time I’ve seen Lontchi, but Lontchi seems hard to look good against and JML dominated him despite it not being very attractive.
Calderon could be higher. Shit, Calderon could be top five. He’s starting to look old IMO.
by Scott Christ on Jul 26, 2009 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions
well it's not like he's been fighting softies either
Especially with the Cazares fights, a lot of people thought he was going to get beheaded
I tend to base more on resume than head to head
Weighting more recent wins heavier than more distant wins
1. Manny Pacquiao
2. Juan Manuel Marquez
3. Paul Williams
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Miguel Cotto
6. Shane Mosley
7. Chad Dawson
8. Chris John
9. Ivan Calderon
10. Celestino Caballero
11. Hozumi Hasegawa
12. Wladimir Klitschko (this says a lot – I see him as a 240 lb fighter, and this is P4P, so he gets a big debit in my book)
13. Nonito Donaire
14. Vic Darchinyan
15. Rafael Marquez
16. Tomasz Adamek
17. Kelly Pavlik
18. Juan Manuel Lopez
19. Roman Gonzalez
20. Mikkel Kessler
On the cusp: Edgar Sosa, Arthur Abraham, Nate Campbell, Timothy Bradley, Daisuke Naito, Lucian Bute
Vasquez ineligible due to inactivity.
I know I’ll get question marks on Lopez and Abraham, but in my opinion their competition level just hasn’t been that good. Gonzalez’s competition, for example, has been about the same as Lopez’s, just he’s smaller so he doesn’t get as much hype. Pavlik’s been dropping like a rock on my list as his ‘good’ wins continue to look worse and worse. The Campbell-Bradley winner probably pops onto my list.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
And FWIW
If Klitschko was a smallish heavyweight instead of a gigantic one, he’d probably be #4.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I like this list other than Darchinyan. The loss he suffered has to drop him significantly I think. He stepped up in weight and couldn’t hurt Agbeko.
Boxing is like jazz. The better it is, the less people appreciate it.
-George Foreman
Thats like his 2nd step up and first time at 118
Also nobody else has hurt Agbeko either. Not that Agbeko has a huge track record to go off of, but lets just say Pavlik stepped up to 168 and couldn’t hurt Andrade. You can’t say its cause he didn’t carry any power up. Maybe Agbeko’s chin is just great not Darchinyan couldn’t crack at 118. Too early to say on that.
Gimme 1 round!
by ItBurnzWhenIP on Jul 26, 2009 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Well said.
Agbeko- the 21st century’s own Marvin Hagler….
I watched the fight last week, and Vic really hit him a few times. The Vic that beat Mijares would have destroyed him, I believe, and I can’t have this attitude of dropping fighters for one bad night.
If I pick my top 20, I think I’d still have Hatton in there, despite him suffering the absolute disgrace of being beaten by the best P$P fighter int he world, possibly of all time…. what a mug…..
Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)
1 of those scorecards was wrong though
A 3 knockdown round is 10-6 not 10-7. So 2 points in reality
Gimme 1 round!
Hmmm...
Does anyone think it possible that the winners and losers of Pacquiao – Cotto and Mayweather – Marquez square off in a redemption fight? That foursome is potentially the very best boxing has to offer at the moment…
"A player who conjugates a verb in the first person singular cannot be part of the squad, he has to conjugate the verb in the first person plural. We. We want to conquer. We are going to conquer. Using the word 'I' when you're in a group makes things complicated." ~ Wanderley Luxemburgo, 1999
If Pac and Marquez both lose, then maybe
But other than that, I don’t see it. Also, don’t forget about Bob Arum loving to give his fighters a gimme fight after they lose. If Pac loses, he probably faces Valero next.
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"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
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