Bernard and Roy: The Rematch That Will Never Be
I received an email a few days ago that wondered why boxing fans continue to hold Bernard Hopkins in such high regard, but shoot down the idea of Roy Jones Jr. as a viable threat because of age. While you might think the explanation is very easy -- and in some ways it is -- I found that a deeper probing into my own thoughts on Hopkins and Jones made me question things just a little bit.
I also found myself wondering if I would still be interested in a long-awaited (probably even overcooked) rematch between the two living legends, and recent news has brought that up once more.
For anyone that hasn't heard yet, Jones and Hopkins were on the phone together for a radio show, doing their usual song-and-dance (i.e., "60-40 me," says B-Hop, and "60 to the winner, 40 to the loser," counters Jones) before Hopkins hung up on the call.
Hopkins, 44, and Jones, 40, are both going to the Hall of Fame. In fact, if one of them didn't make it, I would get 500 internet soapboxes and not shut up until it was done. And to quickly answer my own question: Yes, I would be very interested in a rematch between the two, even now, even well past that fight's expiration date.
But why is it that we still laud Hopkins while begging Roy to retire?
I don't think it's really so simple as Hopkins still beating good fighters, or even how dominant he was over Kelly Pavlik last year. Let's face it, even if you love Roy and loathe Bernard: Hopkins was always going to age better. He didn't rely on youthful, ungodly reflexes like Roy did, and he was nowhere near the pure athlete that Jones was, and Jones may be flat-out the best pure athlete in the history of professional boxing, bar none.
Comparing their recent records makes it appear that Hopkins is obviously the superior fighter at this stage, and I'm not here to question that. You cannot compare what Jones has done recently to what Bernard has done. Hopkins is clearly the guy that deserves top five, top 10 pound-for-pound talk, while Jones belongs nowhere near the list.
Since Roy's disastrous three-fight losing streak against Antonio Tarver (twice) and Glen Johnson in 2004-05, Jones has gone 5-1, but it's hard to give him great credit for that record. The one loss came in a brutal landslide to Joe Calzaghe, easily and clearly the best fighter he's faced in that time. His best win? It really might've been a shot Jeff Lacy. Even if that wasn't the best opponent, I believe that's the fight where Roy looked the best he's looked in years; physically, mentally, everything. He looked sharp.
As for Hopkins, he's 3-3 in his last six, but he hasn't fought anything less than a world class, dangerous opponent. We're not talking about Lacy, Prince Badi Ajamu, Anthony Hanshaw, bloated Felix Trinidad or semi-retired Omar Sheika. We're talking the young and hungry Jermain Taylor (twice), unbeaten Kelly Pavlik, Calzaghe, Tarver and Winky Wright.
It may also be easy to forget now how impressive it was that former middleweight champ Hopkins made the leap to 175 pounds and dismantled Tarver, the reigning and legit champion of the division at the time. But I also do think it's fair to look at that win in hindsight and ask, "What's Tarver done since then?" Nothing, really, besides two wide losses to Chad Dawson and a duck job with Danny Green.
And Winky? Winky went AWOL for almost two years and returned to get slaughtered by Paul Williams. Kelly Pavlik is giving ominous signs that the Hopkins fight ruined him, or that maybe he just wasn't the guy he was made out to be (a la Lacy with Calzaghe, perhaps).
The obvious comparison, really, is Joe Calzaghe. Who am I to say Roy wouldn't have beaten an overweight Wright, a potentially overhyped Pavlik that didn't carry the weight well, or maybe even the Tarver that was so sluggish he started claiming he was drugged?
So how did they do with Joe Cool? There are many that argue Hopkins deserved a win over Calzaghe. I am not one of them. I thought Calzaghe clearly beat Hopkins, outworking him, outhustling him, and just plain winning the rounds and thus the fight. It wasn't pretty by any means, but Hopkins fights rarely are.
Jones, of course, was beaten to a pulp by Calzaghe, and I had Roy winning only the first round (118-109 final card). My initial score for Calzaghe-Hopkins was 117-111 for Calzaghe, which was about as wide as it got. I found I was quite in the minority there, but even though I might give Bernard a round more upon a second viewing (which I did later), I still think he obviously lost the fight.
Hopkins has earned his spot, and Jones has not yet earned the climb out of the "hole" he's been placed in as far as general perception goes.
But then another question burns in my head: If they rematched, who would I pick?
That's not so cut-and-dry, in my opinion. Jones is still faster, still a better athlete, and Hopkins is unlikely to bully Roy the way he did Pavlik, or even Wright and Tarver to lesser degrees. Roy hides a savvy pro behind a lot of his boasting and glitz and flash. I don't think he gets into a dog fight with Hopkins or lets Bernard push him around on the inside.
And I think Hopkins knows that, too. Almost 17 years ago, Jones beat Hopkins. To this day, after everything they've done, I'd take Roy over Bernard, prime-versus-prime, every single time, at any weight. With the way Bernard just ducked out of even having a conversation about fighting Jones again, I think the ol' "Executioner" might not be so confident in even the current superiority over Jones that he's been assigned by the public.
It's somewhat unfortunate that we'll never find out.
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Interesting observations
I tend to agree with the conclusions of the post. Although there is no doubt that Hopkins has earned the current acclaim more than Jones, I believe that he is quite overrated, and Jones perhaps is a little underrated at this stage in their careers
Say what?
Hopkins isn’t “overrated.” It’s not even possible to overrate him at this point, unless you are talking about “All Time Greatness” or some such thing.
Jones, on the other hand, has been shot for several years now.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
I’m not trying to denigrate his achievements, he was a great boxer and it is phenomenal that he has continued to perform at the elite level given his age.
However, I think Hopkins’ consensus position as the number 3/4 pfp boxer in the world is overrating his current ability. His ugly, spoiling style and boundless ring nous was enough to keep it fairly tight against Calzaghe, but he didn’t look that great; Kessler had been more impressive a few months earlier. Pavlik was subsequently woefully unprepared for the kind of fight Hopkins gave him, and Hopkins hasn’t fought since.
The longer he stays out of the ring, the longer his stock drops – after all he simply has to age sometime (and yes, I know people have been saying that for years, but he does).
As for Jones, he may be shot compared to his younger self, but he’s still a viable mid-level contender at the moment
It probably is, except
That there really isn’t much of anyone to take his place. I mean who would be at #4 or so ahead of him?
Mosley? Lost close but clear to Cotto not long ago, and looked like crap against Mayorga.
Cotto? Got his ass kicked by Margarito and more than a few people thought he lost to Clottey.
Williams? I personally have Williams ahead of Hopkins, but I can see where a lot of folks wouldn’t, especially if you don’t rate his win over Winky. After Winky and Margarito, there’s a dearth of good wins.
Vasquez? He hasn’t even fought in 18 months.
Dawson? He practically lost to Glen Johnson, plus the Tarver Hops beat was probably better than the Tarver Dawson beat.
Donaire? His ONLY decent win is over Darchinyan.
Calderon? Skills have seriously degraded, and he’s still never so much as faced a top 20 P4P fighter.
The problem is that there’s just a lot of parity from about 3 to 25, with Pacquiao and Marquez standing pretty well head and shoulders over everyone else at the moment.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
There's a legitimate argument he's better than all of these people
But I see his situation as quite similar to Vazquez’s, actually. A fighter who has faced and beaten quality opposition in their last few fights, but who hasn’t fought in a while, and has big question marks over their current standing.
Most people have long discarded Vazquez from their pfp lists, due to inactivity, and Hopkins is sliding down mine until he proves himself again, which I sincerely hope he does. I would be extremely interested in seeing him fight Adamek, which I regard at this point as a tough fight to call
I honestly wouldn’t be interested in the fight. I think Jones has a style that Hopkins just can’t overcome. He has had problems with guys who are physical beasts and even at this old as Jones is a physical marvel for whatever weight he fights in.
I would be interested in either one of them fighting Adamek. One thing I never got is why he(Jones) never looked into fighting at crusierweight. He weighed in at 196… and in my opinion would have been the best at cruiserweight. Him going down to 175 took years off his prime and his career. The yoyo dieting did him in, and not Tarver in my opinion. Any thoughts?
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
He's fighting at cruiserweight in his next fight.
I do think the goal is to make a fight with Adamek, if he can win the IBO “title” at cruiserweight against Green. However, he’d also be able to pop back down to fight Hopkins or Dawson if that fight opened up. He’s said he’s going to weigh no more than 185 against Green, which basically means he’ll still be at the LHW limit, just without draining water.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I think a fight with Jones and Adamek can easily sell out the Boardwalk.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
There’s a chance Jones and Adamek could do a decent house at MSG. Adamek is way more popular here than Calzaghe is, and Jones still has his fans.
by Scott Christ on Aug 22, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
No problem
Jones-Adamek would sell out MSG, much less the Boardwalk. Adamek gets 9,000 people to show up 10 miles away to watch him fight scrubs. Jones-Trinidad easily sold out despite having absurd ticket prices.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Well that was the Puerto Rican fans for Tito, too. Jones-Calzaghe did a shit house at MSG.
by Scott Christ on Aug 22, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I just happen to think that MSG should only be for mega events… I love Adamek and how he fights but he shouldn’t be a maineventer at MSG.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
An Dan R update from his blog...
ADAMEK-HOPKINS
The other star fighter Schaefer is trying to line something up for is light heavyweight Bernard Hopkins. While Hopkins is out there spouting off about a possible fight with Williams (don’t hold your breath) in the event the Pavlik fight is not rescheduled, and continues to jaw back and forth with Roy Jones for about the 10th year in a row about a rematch (that ship has sailed), the real meat and potatoes talks center on a showdown with cruiserweight champion Tomasz Adamek, whom Hopkins vociferously called out in February, saying he wanted a historically significant fight. This would be one because a Hopkins victory would give him a legitimate championship in a third weight class.
According to Schaefer and Main Events chief Kathy Duva, Adamek’s promoter, the fight can be made. But like Mosley-Berto, they need a bit more money from HBO to get it done. I’m told HBO is offering $3 millionish for the fight and that Hopkins wants HBO to up the offer to $3.5 million.
“HBO came back with a number and it was not acceptable,” Schaefer said. “Kathy and I have negotiated the percentage split, but it only works if HBO comes up with the number and HBO is telling me they cannot commit to any number until they lock in their budget for next year. [HBO senior vice president] Kery Davis said he’ll get back to me. So far, he hasn’t.”
After hearing about comments from Hopkins saying that the reason he thought the deal wasn’t completed yet was because Duva was looking to protect her company’s No. 1 fighter and attraction, Duva contacted me.
She said that was simply not true. She said Main Events “has agreed to Golden Boy’s terms. We have agreed on all the material terms — the split, the site, everything.”
The date would be Jan. 30 at the Prudential Center in Newark, N.J., where Adamek has been drawing crowds for his past few fights. The split between Hopkins — who turns 45 on Jan. 15 — and Adamek would be approximately 60-40 in Hopkins’ favor.
“Bernard will only agree to a deal if we can get the number,” Schaefer said. “If HBO comes to that number then I believe we have a deal. But if HBO doesn’t come up with the number, we don’t have a deal.”
“Hopkins won’t commit to the fight because he wants more money from HBO and HBO is not yet prepared to give him what he wants,” Duva said. “They have told us that they are waiting on their 2010 budget. I understand why we are being held up. But I start to have a problem when Hopkins says we are ducking him. We have agreed to terms. He hasn’t. We would love to do the fight. This would be so huge.”
Most likely, the fight can be made when HBO Sports gets its budget parameters for next year, but it probably has to be sooner than later because Main Events and Adamek don’t want to be left without a fight in the event HBO doesn’t come through.
That’s why Ziggy Rozalski, Main Events’ Polish partner on Adamek, continues to work on a proposed Polish super fight between Adamek and heavyweight misfit Andrew Golota.
“I can’t ask my guy to cancel a proposed fight for October until we know we have a fight with Hopkins,” Duva said. “At some point there will be a point of no return. The Golota fight is not done, but plans are in motion. It’s not what I want to do, but if there is no Hopkins fight, that’s how Tomasz can make money.”
The other issue Duva faces is from the IBF. Adamek is the lineal and Ring magazine champion (in other words, the real champion), but he also holds the IBF title and has a mandatory due with former titlist Steve Cunningham, whom he beat in one of 2008’s best fights.
According to Duva, Cunningham left longtime promoter Don King, claiming breach of contract (like most of the fighters who dump King). She said Main Events is talking to Cunningham and they are planning to work together.
She said Cunningham and Adamek understand there is no television money available until early next year to make their rematch, so they’re willing to wait. If Adamek-Hopkins is finalized, Adamek would give up his IBF belt and Cunningham would fight for the vacant title in early 2010.
“I can either make a deal for Cunningham to fight Adamek or for Adamek to fight Hopkins and Cunningham can fight for a vacant title,” Duva said. “Everyone is OK with that.”
But she needs an answer from HBO.
Incidentally, Duva said if Adamek-Hopkins is finalized she’d like to match Cunningham with Matt Godfrey, the next available contender, for the vacant belt on the Jan. 30 HBO undercard.
“I think putting Cunningham on the undercard makes a lot of sense. He’s an action fighter,” she said. “He was in a great fight with Adamek.”
Duva also said she and promoter Russell Peltz are going to work together on his hot Philadelphia welterweight prospect Mike Jones, whom she envisions on a “Boxing After Dark” undercard with Cunningham-Godfrey on top if it can’t be made for an Adamek-Hopkins undercard.
“Mike Jones is the kind of prospect we want to work with,” said Duva, who has a close relationship with Peltz. “HBO seems to finally be interested in him.”
If Adamek-Hopkins does not come off, Duva said HBO has indicated that it would be interested in doing the Adamek-Cunningham rematch.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
A link to the first Roy/Hopkins fight…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WMiFqfgBus
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Tarver
I think Tarver has done some decent things since fighting Hopkins. He dismantled Clinton Woods in a fashion he hadn’t been beaten before (other than by Roy), and Woods was a consensus top 5 LHW at the time. He also didn’t look horrible against Dawson, he was just clearly outgunned. He did look awful against Muriqi though.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

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