Bad Left Hook: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Around SBN: Interview With UMD Athletic Director, Dr. Debbie Yow

Yes, Juan Diaz really did win.

He really did.  I wasn't convinced on fight night.  On fight night, I scored the fight a draw.  But here is my "Sunday morning" card.

R1 Malignaggi 10-9
R2 Diaz 10-9
R3 Malignaggi 10-9
R4 Diaz 10-9
R5 Diaz 10-9
R6 Diaz 10-9
R7 Diaz 10-9
R8 Diaz 10-9
R9 Malignaggi 10-9
R10 Malignaggi 10-9
R11 Malignaggi 10-9
R12 Diaz 10-9

Diaz 115-113

I would be pretty shocked if Raul Caiz didn't have this exact card.  I'm convinced that it's not only a credible card, but the correct one.  On review, the most difficult rounds to score  were rounds 6 and 9.  Rounds 7 and 8 were in the bag for Juan.  He outlanded Paulie in both, and had twice as many power connects.  My opinions about round 6 (for Diaz) and round 9 (for Malignaggi) haven't changed at all between viewings, but my round 8 is completely different.  I missed much of the round, and relied on some RBR commentary to hand the round to Paulie.  This turned out to be a major error when I saw the full round on Sunday

In fact, it seems to me Diaz really won the fight based on the strength of rounds 6, 7 and 8, with Paulie falling off his timing, and Juan shoveling his way inside with meaningful right hooks to the body and left hooks upstairs.  Paulie threw a ton of jabs in these rounds, but missed about  80-85% of what he threw, often only finding Juan's gloves.  Juan had the better of most of their slashing exchanges, and Paulie didn't look very much in control fighting off the back foot in those rounds... he was less a matador then he was a Pamplona runner.

Paulie very clearly won rounds 1, 3 and 11.  Diaz very clearly won rounds 2, 4, 5, and 7.   I'd be surprised if these rounds weren't universal on everyone's scorecards.  Paulie probably won the close rounds 9 and 10, while Diaz probably won a close round 12 and round 8, which on review was less close.  Round 6 was very close, and really very subjective.  But it's worth noting that even though Paulie outlanded Juan 20-18, all but two of Juan's connects were power punches, while more than half of Paulie's were jabs. 

Caiz's 115-113 card is probably identical to mine.  David Sutherland's 116-112 is, for me, a stretch.  I would guess that, in addition to 6,7 and 8, Sutherland probably gave Diaz either the 9th or the 10th.  Then again, considering Sutherland's bizarre 100-89 account of the Daniel Jacobs - Ishe Smith fight, who really knows what his actual rounds looked like.  They could have been written in crayon, for all I know.  But I suppose it's still a credible "score", depending on what you were looking for generally. 

On the other hand, we have Gale Van Hoy's masterpiece of science fiction.  I would bet that rounds 1 and 3 were the only rounds that Van Hoy gave to Paulie, which is simply an impossible score for me to reach, even after three very forgiving reviews.   118-110 would require someone to completely ignore the 11th round, and to lend so much weight to Juan's unfocused aggression in rounds 9 and 10 that it would constitute a feat of fistic alchemy.  Boxing isn't "full of shit," like Paulie claims, but Van Hoy's card is most definitely full of shit.  It stinks.  It's a joke and, frankly, a crime. 

But Diaz still won the fight.

 

EDIT:

I've heard some continued talk about Paulie having "controlled the fight" with his jab, so I figured I would go ahead and address it below the jump, if anyone cares to read it:

Star-divide

A good jab is a utility punch that can be used for all kinds of things. It can be used for disrupting your opponent’s timing, measuring distance, setting up combinations, as blinding cover for a right cross, as a wedge to pry open a cut... some boxers are even able to use the jab as a formidable weapon all it’s own.

But if you are mainly using the jab to short circuit an opponent's offense, then it  had better do exactly that. In the case of the middle rounds against Diaz, it didn’t.  For instance, Paulie landed 11 jabs in the close sixth round, but Juan was still able to come in 16 times and land power punches on Paulie. So basically… it didn’t work!  Trading 11 jabs for 16 power punches is not a good trade-off, unless you are able to also land power punches of your own (he wasn’t; Paulie only landed 9).  So even if those numbers were closer, it still wouldn’t qualify as having stopped Juan's game plan. Getting inside to land hooks was exactly what Juan was trying to do, and Paulie generally wasn’t able to stop him from doing that.

This trend continued through round seven and round eight. In round seven, Diaz outlanded Malignaggi 18-15 (not even counting the inside rough stuff). There Paulie landed 9 jabs in an unsuccessful effort to disrupt and fend off 13 power punches from Juan… again, this is a bad trade!   For his part, Paulie landed 6 of his own power shots in that round while Juan hit him with 5 jabs. So who exactly was imposing his will in that round? 

Round eight was closer… Paulie connected with 9 jabs versus 9 power punches from Juan.  But, to quote an old boxing coach: "If I give you five nickels and you give me five dimes, who's richer?"  Meanwhile, Juan landed 7 jabs of his own compared to 5 power connects from Paulie.  In a way, you could even say that Juan had the more effective jab in that round, because he once again was able to land more and bigger punches while limiting Paulie’s own power punch production. In all three of these rounds, Juan was more accurate and more effective at doing what he wanted to do, which was getting to Paulie with left and right hooks.

I think rounds 6, 7 and 8 are the most misunderstood rounds of this fight. Paulie threw a blizzard of jabs to try to keep Juan off of him, but he 1) missed most of what he threw and 2) wasn’t able to stop Juan from getting in anyway.

 

P.S.  If you're going to participate in the poll, how about including your own round card below?

Poll
What was your score for Diaz-Malignaggi?
114-114 Draw
10 votes
115-113 Diaz
20 votes
115-113 Malignaggi
42 votes
116-112 Diaz
1 votes
116-112 Malignaggi
21 votes
Other
3 votes

97 votes | Poll has closed

FanPosts do not necessarily reflect the views of the editors of Bad Left Hook or SB Nation. They might, though.

3 recs  |  Comment 76 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

7-5 Diaz is defensible

There were a number of close rounds. I don’t like going back and rewatching and rescoring, simply because the score is supposed to be based on initial gut reaction, and you lose that once you’ve already seen the fight. This often leads to different scoring than how it was originally, but what was there originally is really all that should be right.

I personally had it 8-4 for Malignaggi though. There were a couple rounds I gave to Malignaggi where Diaz did land the harder shots, but I just felt like Malignaggi was controlling the action, and it’s not like Diaz’s shots were doing any damage either.

There was a poll on another site about who people though won the fight. Through about 300 votes, less than 10% had Diaz winning the fight.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 24, 2009 12:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m not really concerned with polling. results… it’s not an indication of how well anyone is scoring individual rounds. I just added it for fun.

I always rewatch and rescore, personally. It’s part of the fun of boxing for me, and really helps as far as honing the scoring instincts. Sunday mornings are nice and puritanical, with all the booze being purged from my sinful veins. But like I said, there was only one round swing for me on my second card… the eighth. I’m curious how people are managing to defend the eighth for Malignaggi, actually. He outlanded Paulie 18-15, and landed twice as many power punches and was more accurate. Sure that’s not everything as far as scoring a round, but if you’re going to hand a round to the other guy with those kind numbers, you would have to rely on a ton of “intangibles” and, that holy of unholies, “ring generalship.” Round seven was the same story. It doesn’t seem possible to me that someone could score the round for Paulie, and didn’t last night either. The reliance on intangibles would have to be very extreme.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 24, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m curious how people are managing to defend the eighth for Malignaggi, actually. He outlanded Paulie 18-15

Err, I mean “defend the seventh for malignaggi.” That’s was a wide round for Diaz:

JD:
Total18/56 (32%), Jabs 5/17, Power 13/39

PM:
15/84 (18%), Jabs 9/60, Power 6/24

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 24, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I just tend to think that polling is a pretty good indication of whether it was actually a 'robbery'

If more than about 20% think it could have gone the other way, then I tend to think of it as not being a robbery, but a close call.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 24, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think its a terrible way of indicating a "robbery"

 Where are the round cards? With no way of knowing how these people came up with their scores, there’s no way to know whether they are credible. How do I know half of them aren’t sore bettors, or friends and associates of Paulie? Unless someone explains their card, I have know way of even knowing if they even saw the fight. If I think a fight was fairly scored, no amount of anonymous polling is going to change my mind.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 24, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair, Brick is actually agreeing with you....

Or that’’s the way it seems to me. He is saying that if 20% of voters have it the other way, then you can’t conclusively call it a robbery. Which is the same point you’re making, just in a different way.

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on Aug 24, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No he's not

Or I don’t think he is. It sounded to me like he was saying that because a poll on some website only had 10% scoring the fight for Diaz, that means Paulie was robbed.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 24, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If so few people thought the other guy won the fight

Then you have a better case for calling it a robbery.

You’re never going to be unanimous though. Other than maybe Roy Jones at Seoul, you’ll always have some people think the right result was reached. But at a certain point, the percentage of people who have it scored one way is low enough that you can pretty much discount the possibility that the decision was the correct one. If only 10% of people scored the fight for Diaz, the odds that you’ll have three judges who all score the bout for Diaz is only .01%. That’s home cooking.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 25, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree, only because you have to compare the cards. For example, I’ve already seen lots of Malignaggi and Diaz winner cards that had them winning and losing different rounds.

A round-for-round consensus is what is needed in a close fight like this, not just comparing scores (I would have made a poll like this, but it seemed too complicated for the polling software). For instance, I would like to see how many people really scored round seven for Malignaggi.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, wait a minute Brick

Didn’t you have this to say about robberies just a month ago:

“What is a robbery in boxing? Here’s a hint – it’s not a decision that you merely disagree with. It’s a decision that is impossible; that there’s no reasonable way the judges could have scored the fight in favor of the fighter who actually won.”

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 24, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, and I stick to it

Albeit slightly modified.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 25, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And go easy on me

I haven’t gotten much sleep lately.

For a dumb example though – when I watched Casamayor-Santa Cruz live, I thought Casa won. But after a while, it became pretty apparent that I was wrong, purely because of the wisdom of crowds.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 25, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw it live too

If you scored for Cassie, well I’ m not sure what to tell you. Personally I’m not a big believer in the wisdom of crowds. Lots of crowds are mobs.

I put up the poll knowing it would take a beating. But as I suspected, no one has submitted their round card. Maybe that’s because they might have to defend it?

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most of our rounds were up in the RBR thread

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 25, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Got it

Cotto wins a close fight against Clottey, not a robbery. Diaz wins a close fight against Malignaggi, robbery.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's a difference between close and close but clear

Anyway, you’ve convinced me. I downgrade this one from “robbery” to “questionable”.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 25, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

By the way, I noticed that Scott gave all three rounds (6, 7 and 8) to Paulie last night. I think this, too, is somewhat defensible, particularly the sixth. But it seems the accusations of “robbery” are being amplified by anger over one card, and as a result people aren’t looking at the fight objectively anymore. I don’t even consider 116-112 Malignaggi to be a ridiculous score. It was just one of those fights that you were going to have very different but still legitmate cards.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I had the 12th for Paulie.

by lcollins1 on Aug 24, 2009 6:59 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

That's not even outrageous

It’s possible. Just like its possible to give the ninth to Juan (I gave it to Paulie). Just one of those fights.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 24, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

voted other. had paulie winning by a round

The Dude Abides

by battle axe of doom on Aug 24, 2009 11:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

So, you had an even round? Which round was it, if you don’t mind me asking?

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 24, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

well i feel like a moron now. i was actually going by harold’s card except that i gave a specific round to baby bull instead of paulie (like harold did). i just assumed that meant paulie by one since i took away a round from harold’s card (which was 115-113), but i suppose i did the math wrong and really had it a draw.

The Dude Abides

by battle axe of doom on Aug 24, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldn’t have even cared if you had scored the 6th round a draw. Everybody hates that sort of thing, but sometimes it just makes sense to do it. Especially in pure style matchups like this. If you can respect both styles, and they’re both executing them at the same level, you pretty much gotta call that round a draw.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 24, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve yet to see the fight but will be getting round to it in few days. I looked through the RBR and it seems like it was a very close fight and depending on what style you like, you may have leaned one way.

I agree with jrok when he said “it seems the accusations of "robbery" are being amplified by anger over one card”.

If there was another judge instead of Gale Van Hoy who lets say had it 115-113 Malignaggi, would people still feel Paulie was robbed by the other two judges?

Like i said i havn’t seen it yet and when i do ill be able to do the poll and comment further.

"Good, so it can’t go any deeper." - Arturo Gatti after being told he was cut to the bone

by sigidy on Aug 25, 2009 2:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Keep an open mind

Also, try to enjoy the fight. It was a good one and a classic styles matchup.

There is a lot of hypocrisy floating around right now. You have guys who a couple of months ago swore up and down that Josh Clottey wasn’t the victim of a “hometown heist” in New York City, but who now say that Malignaggi was robbed, that it’s impossible to score the fight for Diaz, that anonymous polls or Dan Raphael should influence your opinion, or some other total horseshit that prevents them from having to talk about the actual rounds.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was the build-up (+) execution that did it for me

If Paulie had not have said ’I’m going to get robbed’, I would be less inclined to say it was a robbery. Paulie called it months in advance, and then shockingly, he actually under-emphasized the extremity of the actual ‘bullshit’. Now, blame can be put on Paulie for taking the fight in HTX, with said judge, but as he mentioned in the post-fight, he’s doing this for the best payday and this fight provided that.

I still call this fight a robbery. Not because of one-sided fan response or because of Paulie’s outrage, but because of the pre-meditated nature that the judging of the fight evokes. We all knew this was a risk months in advance, in part due to Paulie’s protests. And, while the final win v. loss of the card may not be properly characterized as a ‘robbery’, I think the circumstances combined with Van Hoy’s card by itself must be viewed as nothing less.

It’s not impossible to score the fight for Diaz. But, when there is a high probability of bullshit, combined with an actual bullshit score, I think it’s very safe and in fact appropriate to call the overall judging of this fight…bullshit, and thereby a robbery.

by lcollins1 on Aug 25, 2009 11:51 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

But, what does Van Hoy’s card have to do with Raul Caiz’s card, or Sutherland’s card? If Van Hoy had scored the fight 120-108 for Paulie, Paulie still would have lost.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like SC said earlier;

If the absolute best Paulie could do on the cards was get a SD, and that was pre-determined by the choice of judges, then that in itself is a robbery. I’m surpirsed you can’t see the logic on this one.

I also liked the comment which said something like “Paulie made sure they couldn’t rob him, and they went ahead and did it anyway.”

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on Aug 25, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, that’s not what I recall Scott saying. I remember him saying this:

The problem isn’t the fact that Diaz won, really. It’s an arguable fight on both sides. I might have it 115-113 Paulie today, instead of the 116-112 I had it last night. I thought it was a good, competitive fight. The problem is Van Hoy clearly went out of his way to fuck Paulie Malignaggi on that card. It’s an official giving a fight away before the bell even rang.

And I said:

That’s the real problem. And it IS a real problem. Basically, Paulie was going into this fight looking at a Split Decision at best and that is wrong.

I’ve also said Van Hoy several times should be investigated, although I doubt he’ll actually be punished. None of that has anything to do with how I scored the fight, which was a 115-113 Diaz victory.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we’re nearly on the same page here. If all that is left is the descriptive term we use for each situation, I’m fine with that.

The term ‘robbery’ is hereby defined as where more than one official/judge/referee engages in intentional, knowing, purposeful or willing cheating behavior or activity, including judging, official penalties, etc., in order to have a significant impact in the outcome of one boxer winning and/or one boxer losing.

The term ‘fuck your whole career up’ is hereby defined as where one official/judge/referee or athletic commission official engages in intentional, knowing, purposeful or willing cheating behavior or activity, including judging, official penalties, etc., in order to have a significant impact in the outcome of one boxer winning and/or one boxer losing.

by lcollins1 on Aug 25, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm cool with that.

You know what was a real “robbery” in recent memory? Cintron-Martinez. That was severely fucked, and nobody even got an L on their records. Ged O’Connor and Peter Trematerra should’ve been locked up for that mess… I would have liked to have seen their actual scorecards so I could see when they started feverishly scoring rounds for Kermit to “even things out.” Frank Santore Jr. should’ve been locked up for resetting the fight, too. Total farce.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, that was worse than this one. That was bad in more ways with the KD not a KD situation and the scoring.

by lcollins1 on Aug 25, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also, Santore deducted a point from Martinez in the final round if you remember. That almost smacks of orchestration. It was insane… just what was need to rescue Kermit’s “L” and just in the knick of time. No investigation, of course.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

a fight similar to this situation (in which the winner isn’t debated but one card is) is taylor-spinks. there was one judge who for some absolutely INSANE reason had spinks winning that fight

The Dude Abides

by battle axe of doom on Aug 25, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What do you mean, the Cintron fight?

I haven’t heard much debate about the winner of that fight. It was Martinez. Tom Kaczmarek was the only guy who left that with any shred of dignity. He scored it 116-110 (being forced to subtract 1 for the “illegal punch”)

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

nevermind i just wanted to bring up spinks-taylor which had one of the worst scoring of all time by one of the judges. lampley even went on a rampage after that judge’s scorecard was announced

The Dude Abides

by battle axe of doom on Aug 26, 2009 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

Lampley said that Dick Flaherty should never be allowed to score a championship fight again based on his 117-111 Spinks card.

Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes

by SC on Aug 26, 2009 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

midway through Diaz-Paulie, I was pretty sure that ’what’s his name’, the awful judge was going to give Paulie a point-deduction.

by lcollins1 on Aug 25, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

er referee, not judge.

by lcollins1 on Aug 25, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cole

It wouldn’t have shocked me. Cole is strictly awful.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Same

115-113

I’ve watched it over several times.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Aug 25, 2009 1:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

For who?

Boxing is the beginning of all sports. I'm willing to bet that the first sport was a man against another man in a fight. (Omar Epps)

by Chaos100 on Aug 25, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My bad, Diaz.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Aug 25, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you have the same rounds as well?

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ha, looking at it right HERE, I did. Good stuff.

Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."

by xFenixKnightx on Aug 25, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's a good round card

Frankly, I hear a lot of people saying 115-113 Paulie, but not a lot of people saying which rounds were “clearly” Paulie rounds. Anything from round 4 to round 9 really doesn’t qualify.

Even if you were to simply go by number of pure connects (disregarding power), the fighters split it 6 rounds a piece. Nobody seems to want to dig deeper than that, because that would open up the question of “who landed the more meaningful punches.” Diaz landed more power punches by a large number in almost every round. And as far as a Paulie Malignaggi jab goes… I can think of bee stings that are less “meaningful.”

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

err.. more meaningful

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Diaz’s “power punches” didn’t do anything either, so I have a hard time getting behind his inability to jab as superior to Paulie’s ability to control Diaz with one.

by SC on Aug 25, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Diaz landed more jabs then Paulie in round 8. Paulie was cut, and had some bad looking welts on both his left and right sides. And a Paulie Malignaggi jab doesn’t equal a Juan Diaz power punch.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And if Paulie’s jab is so “heavy” like he ridiculously claims, how come he wasn’t able to open up two cuts over the course of almost 8 consecutive rounds?

I remember you made a similar analogy about Khan’s chin once, so I’ll make this one: I’m not a professional fighter, but if you tied me to a tree, blindfolded me and let Paulie Malignaggi work on me for ten minutes, I’m fairly sure he couldn’t knock me out. Juan isn’t powerful, but Paulie has no power.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t disagree that Paulie’s “heavy jab” claim is kind of funny considering he couldn’t punch his way out of a wet paper bag, but Diaz’s power punches didn’t do anything more to Malignaggi than Malignaggi’s jabs did to Diaz. I just can’t find it in me to go, “Well, Diaz’s sometimes-desperate power punching that didn’t bother Paulie much sure meant a lot more simply because it wasn’t a jab.” Jabs are punches, too. Think about the jab’s feelings, jrok.

Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes

by SC on Aug 25, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I do Scott. I do.

Anyway, like I said, if you were going by simple numbers, Paulie and Juan each landed more punches in six rounds a piece. Forget for a second that Juan landed more meaningful punches in more rounds… Six-to-six means that people who claim a robbery probably should explain how they scored it 7-5 (let alone 8-4, or some of the more ludicrous Paulie scores I’ve heard.) I’ve stated my case. So far, I haven’t heard anyone say something like “There’s no way you could possibly score (such and such) round for Diaz, jrok!” That’s very telling to me.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well I don’t feel that there’s no way, so I’m not going to tell you that. Very debatable fight.

I also would like to say I’m THRILLED that a fight that was as lukewarm as Malignaggi-Diaz has attracted this much attention… well, I’d like to say that if we were purely discussing how good the fight was and our differences in scoring, and this wasn’t brought on by a blind Texan.

Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes

by SC on Aug 25, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah. Van Hoy sucks the bone.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah

And I added an addendum about “the jab” below the jump. I have mucho, mucho respect for the Jab, and it is by far my favorite punch in boxing… when it’s truly effective.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thats what I thought

shame we’re not just discussing the fight

We're all given some sort of skill in life. Mine just happens to be beating up on people. (Sugar Ray Leonard)

by BrianBrock on Aug 26, 2009 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lederman’s card was bad.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 25, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

got to this pretty late

normally on the front page. Great post, especially on the jab.

I’m very far from an expert scorer or anything, but I had it 7-5 Paulie. The closer rounds(6, 8, 9 and 10). I favored his style more I guess over Diaz. I thought the final round was close but my definite impression overall was that he’d done enough.

I’m not sure there can be a ‘correct’ card when you’re dealing with something as subjective as boxing scoring and there are some close rounds in there. There’s always a reasonable degree of variance between cards in a fight such as this, a point either way maybe, Van Hoy aside. I didn’t really see 116-112 either, and as that one gave 100-89 earlier in the night…..

Anyway, it was a great fight and it was a shame it wasn’t a SD or 115-113 across the board and then the actual scoring wouldn’t have overshadowed the event.

We're all given some sort of skill in life. Mine just happens to be beating up on people. (Sugar Ray Leonard)

by BrianBrock on Aug 26, 2009 7:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I had it 116-112 for pretty much the same reasons

Sure, Diaz landed the marginally harder shots in a number of rounds, but NOTHING did any damage to Paulie. Paulie was snapping Diaz’s head back as much as vice versa. If Diaz threw a little harder, I could very easily see it being a 115-113 or even 116-112 scorecard for Diaz, but his punches just weren’t hard enough to overcome the fact that Paulie was controlling all the action. Paulie fought his fight and made Diaz look uncomfortable for the entire second half of the fight (other than the 12th).

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Aug 26, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, Diaz landed the marginally harder shots in a number of rounds, but NOTHING did any damage to Paulie.

Paulie was cut, and his sides were clearly welted…. Diaz dinged his body up with a few very vicious, very effective punches.

And the other thing to consider is that Malignaggi is a freak of nature when it comes to punishment. Paulie punches like a straw weight, but his chin is RUGGED AS ALL HELL. I mean, the man is one incredibly tough bastard. If Paulie had a punch, he would probably be one of the most formidable fighters of his generation.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 26, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

thats the phrase I wasn't thinking of

but describes it better ‘controlling the action’ ; hence the general impression I (and I guess many) got

We're all given some sort of skill in life. Mine just happens to be beating up on people. (Sugar Ray Leonard)

by BrianBrock on Aug 26, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The closer rounds(6, 8, 9 and 10). I favored his style more I guess over Diaz.

That’s pretty much what I am saying. Those rounds in particular were a classic style matchup, one guy pressing and forcing the action, the other guy responding and attempting to control it. It all boils down to who you saw doing what he came to do and doing it better. There are good arguments on both sides, but despite the fact the Malignaggi moved well and threw approximately 50,000 jabs, I thought that he rarely used them to set much up, and that Juan was continually able to get under them and reach Paulie. If Paulie had mixed up his punches a little more and not missed so many jabs, I probably would’ve have tipped both 6 and 8 to him, giving him the win.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 26, 2009 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

but

do they not count less if you’re not setting much up in terms of combinations? I think he did what he does well, although I’m not so hot on the technical aspects, its equally clear that Juan got inside and did what he does well too in some great back and forth. I think maybe the general/ impression should carry more weight, but judges are there to judge the technical aspects (not sure 2 that night qualified really as judges or some other names you could call them?!)

You’re right in that Paulie missed a lot of his jabs, but they don’t give the judges stats to make their scores(I don’t think?!) and it seemed like they decided if it was close/put emphasis on the power punches, it was going to Diaz.

We're all given some sort of skill in life. Mine just happens to be beating up on people. (Sugar Ray Leonard)

by BrianBrock on Aug 26, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I did my score without have the punch statistics. But when they were available, I used them to support what I already thought I was seeing, which is probably the best way to use them.

I think judging is mainly about scoring rounds as “mini-fights” (in this case, twelve little fights) and figuring out who won each of those fights. I mean, there are other aspects to scoring fights, but the first and foremost is clean effective punching which is what the punch stats try to convey. They also convey other little things about how generally effective your offense and defense really is, such as with the connect percentages. It looked to me that Paulie was throwing a lot of leather in rounds 6-8, but wasn’t connecting very much and was landing on the gloves a lot. There were also several times when I saw Paulie get backed up a little with a hook, and sort of quickly race back in to exchange. That didn’t look very controlled, but more like he was worried it would look worse than it was if he didn’t answer. In those moments in particular, it lokoed to me like it was definitely Juan taking Paulie out of his gameplan and dictating the action, not the other way around.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Aug 26, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

ah ok

so its perhaps the flurry of punches that he was throwing and mainly being ineffective, (ie. landing on the gloves a lot) that’s given people the general mistaken impression that he was controlling the fight more? Visually that would be a big factor in any misconceptions, although you would think that more knowledgeable fans generally would be able to be distinguish between merely throwing a lot and connecting effectively. Certainly on this site the posters/readers are more aware generally, or become more so merely by just reading, like me….and their conclusion is still very much that Paulie won. I might have to watch the fight again later…

We're all given some sort of skill in life. Mine just happens to be beating up on people. (Sugar Ray Leonard)

by BrianBrock on Aug 26, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

just read up and rec'd earlier

more on the basis of the jab piece ;) and on the basis of Brickhaus’ first post will stick with my original admittedly uneducated first impression, although I see far more now see how it could have been scored for Diaz.

We're all given some sort of skill in life. Mine just happens to be beating up on people. (Sugar Ray Leonard)

by BrianBrock on Aug 26, 2009 4:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Just watched the fight

I thought Paulie won but only by a round. He worked the jab well, even coming off the gloves it was keeping Juan at bay. When Diaz threw he landed rather well i thought, he just had to get Malignaggi to stop moving.
There wasnt much more Paulie could of done. With the small ring he couldn’t move all night, he smothered when he had to (sometimes paying for it).
There wasn’t a robbery tho. I can see how people could of given it to Diaz, there was alot of close rounds, but i think Malignaggi won.

"Good, so it can’t go any deeper." - Arturo Gatti after being told he was cut to the bone

by sigidy on Aug 27, 2009 3:40 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

robbery

i was sat front row ringside (@ $250! a no brainer) and could see no other outcome than a win for the italian. honestly thought the draw was on the cards. dibella antics made me laugh, all this has resulted in malignaggi being a credible opponent again, which he wasn’t after ricky battered him. good for paulie, he’s a good kid, slick boxer and has a huge heart. he is good for the sport. he’ll be around for a few years yet.

by cloughie on Aug 30, 2009 11:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Ur ruling on rounds sucks.What fight were u watching?Did u go to the fridge or the bathroom??Paulie was robbed!!Everybody knows that. I loved his post interview.He was speaking the truth.

by killah27 on Sep 2, 2009 6:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

OK

So, which rounds did I get wrong?

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Sep 2, 2009 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Paulie was robbed!!Everybody knows that.

Not really. I thought he won, too, but I don’t think he was robbed.

Bad Left Hook
"Well Howie, I think I'm going to stay outside and outjab him." -- Tex Cobb telling Howard Cosell how he would approach Larry Holmes

by SC on Sep 2, 2009 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ur goin on and on about Diaz landing these power punches,and yes they did hit Paulie occasionally.But for the most part of the fight Malignaggi was slippin and weaving back to avoid these straights and slow looping punches.He made Diaz look very sloppy.Paulie had incredible footspeed that night. And Diaz made it obvious he could not cut the ring off nor keep up with him.OK, so most of Malignaggi punches were peppering jabs and crosses,but so whatThey were getting through the “Baby Bull”s guard way too often for anyone not to notice.He outlanded Diaz in the fight totals and Diaz was only landing occasionally. You might of been getting fooled by the Houston hometown crowd! Any little flurry Juan put together the crowd roared.Lunging like an unskilled ameteur to try to even hit Paulie’s gloves.Juan Diaz is just a straightforward one dimensional fighter.He does not have the tremendous lateral like Paulie. Does anybody appreciate defense Like I said It might have been a robbery.

by killah27 on Sep 3, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what rounds did I get wrong?

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Sep 3, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Byt the way

Most of Paulie’s punches that got through were not “jabs and crosses.” They were mostly jabs and hooks. Paulie landed very few straight right hands, really only when he threw that 1-2-1, and even then he mostly missed or glanced the last two punches.

"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb

by jrok on Sep 3, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

i have an understanding`

and its not exactly a ‘breaking news’ story – but the van hoy character was made ‘whole’ that nite by GBP.

by cloughie on Sep 11, 2009 12:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to SB Nation's Bad Left Hook, covering boxing 365 days a year.
Start posting on Bad Left Hook »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.


Managers

9018_185776360922_747385922_4256197_5272137_n_small SC

Editors

Simpson_small Brickhaus

Boxing_icon_small Matt Miller