Team Pacquiao responds, but Manny stays silent
by Scott Christ on Jan 8, 2010 3:37 AM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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Top Rank promoter Bob Arum and Manny Pacquiao adviser Michael Koncz have both shot back with their own version of what's going on in the Mayweather-Pacquiao fiasco, but the fighter himself is choosing to stay silent, even after Floyd Mayweather Jr. put out a release with his name on it.
Arum told Ronnie Nathanielsz that the finishing point was the time frame for the ending of the blood testing. While Mayweather believes that 14 days before the fight was totally fair and said Pacquiao wouldn't back off of a 30-day window, Arum said again that Pacquiao was willing to go to 24 days. Mayweather refused.
Koncz added this:
"[Experts told us that any PEDs] will be in your blood 40 days before the fight or the day after the fight. Whatever is there is there for that time period. So what the hell does 14 days have to do with it? Nothing other than to irritate Manny knowing that he has whatever, a fear or a superstition of extracting blood less than 30 days."
Who the experts are might play a role in this, because both sides are playing it up to suit their side of the story as you'd expect. But there is the fact that no drug that anyone could possibly be on wouldn't be there the day after the fight at the very, very least.
Koncz also reveals that Michael Katsidis was considered as a replacement opponent, but that they decided to not go that route as they felt it would be hard to market and be seen as a clear tune-up fight by fans. They also decided that there's not enough "entertainment value" in a third fight with Juan Manuel Marquez, though Koncz sort of contradicts himself with that statement as he also says that any fight between Pacquiao and Marquez will be close. I don't know about you, but I've seen two close Pacquiao-Marquez fights and I failed to not be entertained by one moment of either of them.
Koncz also says that while Joshua Clottey is the leading candidate to fight Manny in March, nothing is set in stone.
I know all the public talking is really not Manny's style, and that Arum, Koncz and Freddie Roach generally do his press talk for him, but this is a situation where I'd really love to hear from Manny. I'm sure that won't happen, but I'd like to get the thoughts straight from the man himself this time.
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Doesn't he right in an article for a newspaper every once and a while?
I remember when this all started that he wrote some kind of article calling Mayweather evil or something like that.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
He said in an interview that Mayweather
was a bad influence on something, but i don’t remember evil.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jan 8, 2010 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
There was a newspaper that he wrote in about it. I can't find it but if I do I will Link it.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
I know all the public talking is really not Manny’s style, and that Arum, Koncz and Freddie Roach generally do his press talk for him, but this is a situation where I’d really love to hear from Manny. I’m sure that won’t happen, but I’d like to get the thoughts straight from the man himself this time.
They might want to gag Koncz and throw him in the back room. Honestly, letting that shill of a vampire like do any public speaking for you is probably never a good idea, but in a situation like this you don’t want idiots in your camp shouting things off the cuff (if there’s any chance of salvaging this fight, at least.)
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
Does it mean anything??
I don’t know if it does or if it doesn’t, but Dan Rafael from ESPN has a hot line to Arum, I do know that ‘cause Arum often calls during Dans Fri. chats. Well todays live chat has been moved from 12:30 to 3:30, Is it because theres something still workin’ about this fight? Don’t know, BUT maybe Dan has an inside tip that somethin may pop today. Wishful thinkin’ on my part,..maybe, but then again this soap opera may not have a tragic ending. Peace!!
Since Clottey is not set in stone
I see it as there still might be a dim chance of hope.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
But there is the fact that no drug that anyone could possibly be on wouldn’t be there the day after the fight at the very, very least.
Is that really a fact?
Let's put it this way.
If the blood test used the day after the fight isn’t going to show illegal substances, then the one taken three weeks before isn’t going to either. If Pacquaio or Mayweather were on some fabulous new designer drug that you could make you “hulk out” in the span of three weeks and then vanish from your bloodstream, than they will get away with it regardless of how often they are tested.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
Well, like most sports fans I know, I followed the BALCO trials closely. It’s easy to claim that some unnamed, blood-detectable magic potion can come and go in the span of a month. But, what exactly is Manny being accused of using? The cream and the clear? EPO? HGH? This has always remained vague because:
1) There’s no proof he is using anything, and he has never failed a blood or urine test in the past. That in itself doesn’t mean much, but it puts him on the same ground as Mayweather. Mayweather was never issued a random blood test during his “growth spurt.”
2) If HGH is the “magic pill” that no one so far has had the guts or intelligence to name, than the sort of testing recommended in the contract is practically useless. This is the same regime used at the Olympic level that has has so-far failed to produce ANY positive results for HGH usei in ANY athlete. If you believe that no athlete in the entire Olympics has used HGH, than I have a bridge to sell you in Brookyln The testing is getting better though… not the blood testing, but the urine testing
3) If it’s EPO (i.e. what Shane was using), well then that is blood-doping. It does not relate to increase in size/strength, so the entire impetus for this “suspicion” goes out the window. Or did Manny need superhuman stamina to clobber Hatton in two rounds?
So which is it? Or are we going to talk about this “dark cloud” nonsense again?
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
by jrok on Jan 8, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
...
There are other performance enhancing drugs that are not being tested for and that’s the problem currently. But as far as anabolic steroids, they are used in either a ‘Stacking’ form, or a ‘Pyramiding’ form. In other words, usually if a fighter is caught, they usually have more than one drug in their system — that’s typical.
To accomplish what an athlete wants to accomplish with the use of anabolic steroids, you have to take different ones. And you take them at different times during your training.
So, you might start with one drug, and then as your training goes on, maybe a month or two in advance you start adding another drug in. And, later on, you take that first drug off. So there may be three or four anabolic drugs that an individual is using — maybe more in some cases, perhaps less in others.
But depending on what they want to accomplish with those particular drugs — and each one has a specific profile of what it can help you with — there are tons of these things. Some people want to build on muscle, some people just want to be able to recover from injury so that they can train more.
It just depends on what the individual wants. So the drugs are done in a ‘Stacking’ form, or in a ‘Pyramiding’ form, where you build and build and build on the drugs. And then, at some point, in the middle of your training, you’re maybe on four drugs and then you start to drop them off.
FH: Do you have any example of drugs that might not be detectable after being off of it for a while?
Goodman: Yes. One of those drugs would be Winstrol, the drug that Fernando Vargas tested positive for. That one is a readily-used anabolic steroid.
As a matter of fact, when we first started looking at that one, which is obviously included in the drug screen, it was one of the most commonly-used anabolic steroids in high school kids who wanted to lose weight. It was also one of the most commonly used among high school girls who wanted to lose weight but to be cut — to be a little bit muscular.
The most important thing to understand is that anabolic steroids, for a boxer, are not typically used for muscle. They’re used to help them train harder, more often and to help them recover from injury. That’s the use of an anabolic steroid in a fighter. But this is going to affect both sports if the drug-testing is advanced and expanded.
If you used the pyarmid method testing after a fight will do squat. You can even plan it to be non-dectectable 14 days before the fight. The more random it is the harder it is for you to plan the non dection. It is what is is.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
Wouldn't random urine tests catch that?
Or at least have a really good chance to catch it. I think the main issue is the blood tests.
Yes, random urine tests will absolutely catch hormonal imbalances,
like those created during steroid cycles. HGH is the one big one that everyone is bitching about these days, but all it does is allow for quicker recovery times, really.
Also, hair roots provide a very long record of chemical imbalances and drug use. Fat cells are even better, but the problem with using fat cells is things can get stuck in there for years, and we’re not trying to test what either of these guys did in 2001 (highly unlikely chemicals remain that long, especially with as little fat as these guys have, but it’s not completely absurd for drug use to be detectable many years past).
The whole thing was a simple psych-out job. Manny moved on, and rightly so in my opinion. He’s got tons of fights left out there that he can take and continue to prove himself. Mayweather’s down to the really dangerous guys he’s been ducking, and Manny. He chose Manny because of the money.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
1) There’s no proof he is using anything, and he has never failed a blood or urine test in the past. That in itself doesn’t mean much, but it puts him on the same ground as Mayweather. Mayweather was never issued a random blood test during his "growth spurt."
When has he taken a blood test where they actually checked for PEDs? I don’t think he ever has. They’ve tested for HIV, and what not as required by the athletic commissions, but to my knowledge they don’t require it to be tested for drugs (if they did this whole drama wouldn’t even exist). The only proof anyone can get for using PEDs is 1) failing a test 2) someone snitches (i.e. BALCO)
You can’t look at someone and know that they are on steroids unless it’s blatantly obvious like a women bodybuilder who looks like a dude. Look at it like a weigh in. With the naked eye you can’t tell a +-2 lb differential or something small like that. That’s why you weigh them. Same with drugs. You can’t know by looking if someone is on something. You can’t fail a test that you’ve never taken.
2) If HGH is the "magic pill" that no one so far has had the guts or intelligence to name, than the sort of testing recommended in the contract is practically useless. This is the same regime used at the Olympic level that has has so-far failed to produce ANY positive results for HGH usei in ANY athlete. If you believe that no athlete in the entire Olympics has used HGH, than I have a bridge to sell you in Brookyln The testing is getting better though… not the blood testing, but the urine testing
According to the WADA, the test is most effective in out-of-competition random testing, i.e. during training, not right before the event or during it. Also per this article, the testing window is only about 2 days. Easy to beat if it’s not random.
That being said, I can’t say if HGH would be effective if used in the 30 day window. I’m not an expert on the use of HGH.
3) If it’s EPO (i.e. what Shane was using), well then that is blood-doping. It does not relate to increase in size/strength, so the entire impetus for this "suspicion" goes out the window. Or did Manny need superhuman stamina to clobber Hatton in two rounds?
I’ve been mistaken on this before too, but apparently urine testing can be used to detect EPO. The WADA link I used earlier has a section about EPO and how they use blood/urine combo testing, but it can be detected in urine alone.
There are alot of drugs on the banned list. I don’t know all of the ones which come out in blood only, but I don’t think Mayweather needs to specify which ones they should test for.
I’m no expert on PEDs and I’m willing to bet that alot of people here are not either. I don’t know the different combos and what not that a boxer could use and what the testing windows are on all of them. I also don’t know how the many different methods one could use to beat a test either. So if the experts of anti-doping say that the Pacquiao compromise is easy to beat, then I believe them.
by erod on Jan 8, 2010 12:43 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
But if the best test for HGH is a urine test
which seems to be the case, then Pacquiao did assent to unlimited random urine testing.
Honestly, under either Floyd’s proposal or Manny’s proposal, there’s only three possibilities for someone to still be juicing:
1) The PED is something that there isn’t a test for yet. If this is the case, then it doesn’t matter WHAT kind of testing there is, because they ain’t gonna detect it.
2) The PED has an effective masking agent that can’t be tested. Once again, if this is the case, then it doesn’t matter what kind of testing there is.
3) The person is a fucking idiot and likes to play with fire in his spare time.
If there’s something that can be caught, is the 45 – 50% chance of catching something Floyd’s proposing that much better than the 40 – 45% change of catching something that Manny was proposing? Either way, the person would have to be mentally retarded or mildly insane to try squeezing in something when they can get urine tested at any time, they can get blood tested at almost any time, and they’ll get blood tested immediately after the fight.
More often than not, when someone’s gonna cheat, they’ll just cheat anyway. They’ll just try to find a way of cheating that can’t be caught. That’s how 1/3 of the Tour de France was thrown out a few years back. The bikers thought there was a way to do it without being caught, but the testing technology caught up with them faster than they realized.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
by Brickhaus on Jan 8, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Right
If there’s something that can be caught, is the 45 – 50% chance of catching something Floyd’s proposing that much better than the 40 – 45% change of catching something that Manny was proposing? Either way, the person would have to be mentally retarded or mildly insane to try squeezing in something when they can get urine tested at any time, they can get blood tested at almost any time, and they’ll get blood tested immediately after the fight.
And not only that, but it’s starting to give me a headache hearing this collection of nauseating shills and lawyers say “Olympic-level testing”, as though that is so great and accurate. “Olympic-level” sounds very good in newsprint, but the Olympic regime so far has failed to produce any positive tests for HGH.
Let me tell you, you would have to be off your rocker to think that none of these Olympians are taking It hasn’t been, and from the way things are looking it probably won’t be any time soon. Paulie Malignaggi – shitting through his mouth – made the comments about “he must be on something,” he probably meant either HGH or the cream & clear. Or maybe he didn’t know what he meant… “Superman pills” or some kind.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
I've seen conflicting reports on this
It doesn’t seem like there’s a consensus as to which one is better. The only consensus is that neither one is particularly effective.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Right.
Arguing over which test is worse is usually not a good indicator of the test’s relative value.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
According to the WADA, the test is most effective in out-of-competition random testing, i.e. during training, not right before the event or during it. Also per this article, the testing window is only about 2 days. Easy to beat if it’s not random.
Yes, easy to beat. For anyone, including Mayweather. But most people still sling it around without really understanding what it is and how it actually works. It increases short term lean muscle mass by artificially increasing the amount of a naturally occurring hormone. This is part of the reason why it is such a bastard to detect. Everyone has a different “normal” level of this hormone in their bodies, which means you’d have to detect a very big spike in order to produce a valid "positive test. It’s worth noting that the WADA link you posted was from 2007, and the substance of the entire link was basically stating what I have been saying: the science isn’t good enough yet. Guess what? It’s 2010, and the science still isn’t good enough.
Further complicating that is the fact that you have to take it for an extended period of time to really get useful results; at least a month and even that isn’t a given. Also, HGH promotes muscle mass but not muscle strength. In fact the drawbacks for using HGH are fairly high. Clinical studies have shown that HGH users show fatigue more quickly when they are using the substance, so it would severely fuck with a training routine that involves as much cardio as Roach’s (or Roger Mayweather’s for that matter). You’d have to back it up with EPO, most likely, and use annies as a masking agent, meaning you’d practically be a finely tuned, walking drug-and-hormone factory by the time you made it into the ring. You are probably not going to pass a comprehensive blood and urine test after that, and the combined effects might turn out to your benefit.
I’ve been mistaken on this before too, but apparently urine testing can be used to detect EPO. The WADA link I used earlier has a section about EPO and how they use blood/urine combo testing, but it can be detected in urine alone.
You are still mistaken. When I said it is “blood doping” I don’t mean “it’s testable only in blood.” I mean that it is literally a blood-doping agent, in that it increases your red blood cell count. It has nothing to do with size or strength increases. it is about stamina: retaining more oxygen in the blood supply.
I don’t claim to be an expert on all of these substances, but I am knowledgeable. Steroids were obviously the big thing back when I was growing up, but in the nineties and 00’s you have seen the outgrowth of all of these other hormones that are harder and harder to detect.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
"and the combined effects might NOT turn out to your benefit."
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
You are still mistaken. When I said it is "blood doping" I don’t mean "it’s testable only in blood." I mean that it is literally a blood-doping agent, in that it increases your red blood cell count. It has nothing to do with size or strength increases. it is about stamina: retaining more oxygen in the blood supply.
I know what it is and does. I was just talking about in terms of testing. I used to think it was only testable by blood which it is not.
It’s worth noting that the WADA link you posted was from 2007, and the substance of the entire link was basically stating what I have been saying: the science isn’t good enough yet. Guess what? It’s 2010, and the science still isn’t good enough.
How did you get that? They said the tests were reliable.
I don’t claim to be an expert on all of these substances, but I am knowledgeable. Steroids were obviously the big thing back when I was growing up, but in the nineties and 00’s you have seen the outgrowth of all of these other hormones that are harder and harder to detect.
See? And that’s the kind of stuff I’m talking about. What do you mean you are “knowledgeable”? You think you know more then the USADA???
See? And that’s the kind of stuff I’m talking about. What do you mean you are "knowledgeable"? You think you know more then the USADA???
I am not a scientist, but I can understand what I read. Vague answers like “it is reliable” from the people responsible for designing and giving a test that has yet to produce any positive in a real field test is simply surreal logic. They go on to say that random testing would yield better results. Sure thing, guys. Let me know when this wonderful field test happens. Until then, it is shinola.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
So jrok,
in the end you think that the testing argument is a lot of noise about very little of substance? Then (it would only be your opinion but I’m interested) does this seem like a cluster-fuck that just got out of control, a clash of egos amongst the “smartest guys in the room” (the promoters). Do you think that the Mayweathers might really believe the testing methods would = a big difference? Do you believe that one side wanted out of the fight? Or all and none of the above?
Prov, I think it is all or many of those things you just said. All of this started with a few dumb, vague and unproven accusations, then snowballed into this pile of manure we are looking at right now. Eventually when the science matures I think it would be great to enforce some kind of universal testing regime. But at the moment, it just looks like a great way to try to smear an opponent and sabotage a fight.
I guess it’s moot now. Pacquiao will fight Clottey. And Floyd will fight, I don’t know. The IRS, maybe.
"This fight'll be the nastiest thing you'll ever see. I been sober for six weeks, and that makes me vicious."
-- Randall 'Tex' Cobb
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