When should the ref stop a fight?

come off as a know-it-all, but I know a boat load of refs and we talk about this subject all the time While it’s judgment call kind of thing, I think those who value safety are trying to quantify it as much as possible,. Thus, certain things will equate to a stoppage almost automatically. This of course doesn’t make it right but it’s the direction things are going in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvh9-xr0gOQ&feature=related

 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJDuyo-BAho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok668rOv_4c

is that it should be up to the referee and not the fighter’s decision in any way. Many fighters are too brave for their own good and will take sustained punishment in the pursuit of a lost cause. While that is brave and warrior-like etc, ultimately at the end of a career many pay a heavy price for that. I’d rather stop it too early than let someone take the kind of punch Enzo took from Frenkel.

For a recent example, at the end of the Cotto-Pacquiao fight he wasn’t being hit any more than the previous rounds but the referee decided that he had he’d seen him take enough punishment. While he would have much rather have heard the final bell, he’d lost anyway and the decision could have been made 2/3 rounds earlier. Margarito fought the latter half of his fight differently, but it could and should have been stopped before the end too.
I appreciate heart and courage in a fighter when he’s actually In a fight, or battling back against adversity, rather than just taking a sustained beating. Then I just wonder about his corner.

The difference was that those two were dead even going into that historic round.

Margarito was game and still dangerous but he absolutely needed a clean KO. Nothing else could have won the fight. Behind in a virtual shutout, one could argue the referee and the corner had to determine an intagible: Could he possibly strike and stop Manny. If the answer was yes, they were right to let it go

Maybe it should/could be down to the corner. If they’re happy to see their fighter, their meal ticket, getting beaten to a pulp, thats up to them. They have that towel they can throw in, after all. ‘Show me something or I’m pulling you out/throwing in the towel’, or ’I’m giving you one more round’ etc. If he wants to fire you after, fine. At least you don’t have him afterwards on your conscience. Its in their interest to maximise the length of the fighter’s career, rather than pander to their pride. In the heat of the action though, the referre’s closest, and by the time he sees that towel…

makes for good reading

And I don’t believe there is a right or wrong answer.

I agree with Chaos in a sense that, it’s the fighters decision to be in the ring in the first place and they know of the dangers when they step into the ring. And he makes a very good point in reference to Ali Fraizer. The fighter who wanted to quit won because the other fella got pulled unwillingly.

But then you do get the Watson’s of this world. Sending him out in the 12th was a crime. Even the ref should have stopped it, he should have seen he was in no fit state when he got off this stool.

You also have some fights that are stopped ridiculously early. The one that springs instantly to mind is Degale V Dilks. Ok, Dilks was not throwing much back, but he was fully in control of himself, and Degale was throwing more Calzage pitter patt punches rather than concussive bombs.

What about other issues? How much punishment has a fighter already taken? Tiredness must come into it (another reason I don’t agree with the Dilks stoppage). How shot a fighter may be coming into a fight. Does a Referee take this into consideration? And how much of a puncher is his opponent?

At the moment, I think a fighter should be given every chance. If he is out on his feet…. Get him the fuck outta there. And if he is taking clear, hurtful shots, and not fighting back, just covering up, that too warrents a stoppage.

What I think works well is that referee’s do go over to the corner, like Cole did on saturday, and ask if they want to continue. It lets the fighter know that it is getting to that stage, so he might dig deep and find something. Or maybe when the fighter replies, the Ref might see something in him that he doesn’t like.

The question is where to draw the line? Who would be a ref!

It’s also Reason 1 above that rules here, if in a deep background way: Namely, public perception of contact sports generally will not tolerate excessive death, damage, &/or exploitation of athletes, and if their treatment is perceived as such, public tolerance for those sports evaporates, with boxing (wrongly imo) always the favorite whipping post.

Some fighters – seemingly on the verge of defeat – are like wounded animals. Some are capable of snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Not all beings are created equal – we spoke of a special breed on another thread; fighters willing to walk through the gates of hell, defying anyone to stop them. A ref must have a clear understanding of a fighter’s current threshold and give him every chance. After all, this is a blood sport and a fighter chooses his own path.

Conversely, a referee must accurately read an individual’s body language, recognizing the ‘tells’ of a weakened fighter with diminished capabilities. How many times have we seen a guy dropped hard – he climbs back to his feet – “You wanna continue?” "Hell yeah! " Gloves are wiped and he’s sent back to centre ring only to be knocked out cold by the very next punch. I will never forget Johnny Owen.

In the bravest game of all, sometimes a fighter is simply too brave. I love that quality – deeply admire it. But the ref needs to be a man and look after his fellow man. See Milton McCrory vs Don Curry.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5y4XTGQhX8

Arthur Abraham against Edison Miranda? (the first one, obviously….)

Kelly Pavlik against Jermain Taylor? (again, the first, where Pavlik went down and looked a goner, and came back to beat the fight out of Taylor…..)

Marcos Maidana against Victor Ortiz, when he went down twice in the same round and looked like only being hit more?

Carl Froch against Jermain Taylor, when he was miles behind on the cards and needed a KO in the last 30 seconds?

What about Ali against Foreman, when Ali barely threw anything for 5 rounds?

Wlad Klitschko against Sam Peter? He was hit, he was hurt, he was reeling…. but he still won the fight. Should he have been stopped?

in the final round against Chavez.
Considering, with the benefit of hindsight, that Taylor was ‘fucked’ from then on, it’s surely not hard to imagine how he’d have fared if Chavez had tee-d off for a further 2 seconds. And in case anyone thinks that 2 seconds is nothing, I will cite the 14 punches, full-blown, that Muhammed Ali landed on Brian London’s helpless carcass in just 3 seconds. Let the ref decide. Who else?

Well said, old-timer.

He reckons that only the fighters corner or the fighter himself should be able to stop a fight which I cannot agree with . I saw Chuck Wilburn die in the ring as a 10 year old kid after fighting an incredibly brave fight with Aussie Hector Thompson that was stopped with 5 seconds to go , very similar in some ways to the Watson and McClelland fights but more one sided . The word was his team had put good money on Chuck going the distance hence their unwillingness to stop the fight . Im normally a libertarian so I can see Chaos’ point but in the end its not snuff boxing so the ref and the ringside doc have to be able to stop a fight if circumstances call for it . Cheers Everyone .

Fight to the death, anyone?

" I do NOT agree with the idea that the ref is there to protect the fighter from himself."

Ted, prior to the Griffiths/Paret fight (shown live on TV) what was the attitude to refs stepping in inside boxing itself? The fact of it being seen on TV, I know, seems to have been a watershed in this whole argument, but perhaps you could shed some light on the atmosphere within boxing itself before that tragedy occurred?

 When that was stopped, the first major move toward reform had been made,

HERE IS A QUOTE: In the ring, the referee generally holds absolute authority. Just consider the New York State Athletic Commission Boxer/Promoter contract. It states "the contestants to this bout acknowledge and consent to all decisions rendered by the Referee(s)." So even though the referee wields this authority and knows the fighter must tremble and obey, he also knows that with absolute power comes absolute responsibility. He might listen to ringside doctors and yells from the crowd to stop the fight or gestures from fighters to step in as Larry Holmes did so humanely when he fought Marvis Frazier. But like the existential hero, he must act alone, and he must render decisions with care, especially if they go against a Lou Duva or Norman Stone fighter.

“Referees must be absent-presences in the ring, letting fighters do their jobs and only intervening to make results concord with what happens in the ring; not shape results to fit some preconceived notion of what should happen or who or what they think the fighter they are refereeing is.

“In her book On Boxing, Joyce Carol Oates calls the referee a "shadow," "a ghostly presence," flitting in and out of view as he passes across the frame of the fight. He is usually forgotten but sometimes he is remembered. Sometimes he is remembered in a good light like Mills Lane stopping the Holyfield-Tyson rematch; sometimes he is remembered ambivalently like Richard Steele stopping the Taylor-Chavez fight; but sometimes he is blamed for a fight result as Jersey Joe Walcott was when he stopped the Ali-Liston rematch in the first round. Like all ghosts, the boxing referee is best when after the fight, fans discuss the fight, the result, and the fighters. That is to say, he is best when he remains invisible.”
      

“In my opinion a referee should not be invisible to the action nor stay far away from the action. The guys who espouse that are trying to put forth a standard which has been handed down with the wrong wording.

“One famous referee likes to say that but misses all the fouls while he is profiling for the camera far away from the actual action. Another ref written up on fight beat is so frail and old, that he will not touch the fighters to even beak them but yells at them from 10 feet away,

“Should not be a referee who was an amateur referee and carries the whole amateur prospective into the pro ranks, should not be a referee if he has a history of causing negligent injuries, late stoppages and ring deaths, should not be a referee if the ref is 50lbs or more overweight and presents a danger to the fighters from his being too slow and making one major mistake after another in every fight, should not be a referee if he lets a fighter continue with a broken jaw which is bleeding and could disfigure a fighter for life,

“He should not interfere with the action like the ref in McClellan V Benn who kept stepping in every second ruining the fight, should not be overly officious ruining one fighter’s style, should not move like he himself is boxing which I see sometimes and is nauseating, should not be disrespectful and gruff to the fighters who are the stars of the show not the ref,

“should not so close and clumsy if he is slow and out of shape so as to be bumped into and prevent the fighters from fighting quickly and moving quickly, should not slap the fighters on the back which a father and son team did for years,

should not slap their gloves from the side or from behind, should not show favortism in the dressing room, should not telll the fighters who is ahead on the cards and who is not,

should not have a conflict of interests by working for a casino who is promoting the fight, should not be assigned by a Commissioner who was once a promoter and has ties to other promoters,

“should not be assigned EVER by the alphabet groups but only by the respective and hopefully honest commission, whether the ref paid his alphabet dues or paid to go to their conventions or not, too much of a conflict and breeds political hacks, should not be a relative of anyone who works for a specific alphabet group, or whose father is a Commissioner whether it be in Texas or NY,

“a ref should have some real and I do mean real boxing experience not be some local judge who was never a fighter and kicked off the bench for dishonesty and lack of character by the judicial conduct commission,

“There should be no boxing commissioner assigning referees who has been suspiciously appointed himslef,and who did not have a long and sturdy involvement in boxing outside of being a former promoter and shill for mob controlled interests, or a a commissioner appointed solely for having contributed over $200,000 to Pataki’s war chest, and be rewarded with a job that they screw up daily, misuse, and vilify as a mockery with their very presence.

“Lastly any attorney who works for a commission should be brought before an ethics commiittee for misuing their job, lying, and covering up crimes and misuse of office while masking it under the color of law, while tampering with files, and appointing officials who injure, kill, and ruin fighter’s carreers through an ongoing course of inept negligence.

“That’s just my opinion, but I could be wrong.”

Sorry for the bad spelling, was typing too quick.

Also would add that a referee should not do the following which is all done by one ref for years,

In addition to not slapping the fighters on the back then stepping back so far while yelling for them to break from a distance, a referee should not hold the ropes with his hand pulling it into the fighter when the fighters back is against the ropes.

The referee should tighten the ropes before the bout or call time and tighten them again if they become dangerously loose. If a fighter is capable of knocking the other out of the ring with a legal punch this should not be prevented.

A referee should not be telling the fighters how to fight he should only officiate. The same ref in the last round asks them, “Which one of youse guys wants it more, lets go gentleman,” it injects a dunce personality thing into a fight, where the referee should remain neutral.

A referee should not vote, there used to be one who voted only for the boxers and felt punchers weren’t scientifically pretty enough, thank God they don’t vote anymore.

A referee should never tell a fighter what style to use in the ring, and should not break them too soon preventing in fighting, unless they are hopelessly locked up.

In the old days, refs did not stop lp-sode bouts as they do today. See this:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/4355062/Boxing-referees-urged-to-stop-lop-sided-bouts

and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opHSUGJEECI

and this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-sW4dqH6OQ

and this and warning, it’s brutal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezLbrjlyTuQ&feature=related

So in answer to Loathsome, back in the day, the situation was much closer to Chaos’ thesis,

Refs would let fights go on further. Now what is needed is a study that compares incidents of Pugilistica Dementia between say 1940-1965 to 1965- 1995, and between 1995-2010. That would be at least one indicator and I believe it is being looked at.

I do know that a lot of old timers I know personally have have suffered as much damage as some of the younger guys I know, but what this means is beyond my ability to determine. Don from Prov knows a lot of the same guys and he might want to comment.

I do know that a lot of old timers I know personally have have NOT suffered

Hagler probably got hit more cleanly more often then Benitez, but.

Similar to Hopkins and Monzon in that regard .

I get Chaos’s point here. If a fighter comnes to the ref when asked to, tells him what day it is when asked, and where he is fighting when asked, then don’t stop it. The fighter wants to fight. But if he can’t respond to some of those questions, then a judgement call must be made.

Benn looked fucked. Imagine if the ref had stopped that one early. That fight elevated Benn and finished him in one fateful hour.

“it looks like he’s done him in the first”.
I was gutted for Benn, but… “the old wounded lion scenario” eh!
 The ref stopping the fight (at the start) only reinforces Chaos’ point in those circumstances.

By ‘out of it’ I meant out of the fight as in at risk of being waved off by el reffo. Buuuut, he took some heavy looking shots and his head was down as he went through the ropes…. some refs could have stopped it there and then. I also have it too, (on VHS :-) ) and it really is a great fight. And you’re right. That “devilishly good looking” Mr Newbon reckons he helped shove poor old Nige back in to the ring!!

theres a rat in the kitchen , my paella is burning and a fat german chef wants my ass . Dont mention ze war .

Polly , meow . O’Reilly and the builders Phil LMAO That episode was a beauty . Sybil looked like she was going to give Basil and OReilly an enema with a 3 ft high concrete gnome .