Team Pacquiao: Alex Ariza Wants Marquez, Not "Quitter" Mosley
by Scott Christ on Nov 17, 2010 9:01 AM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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Alex Ariza, the famed strength and conditioning coach of Manny Pacquiao, says he would like to see Manny fight Juan Manuel Marquez a third time, and forget about Shane Mosley. Ariza also called Mosley a "quitter" when talking to the Philippine Star (link via BoxingScene.com):
"Mosley? He’ll be tired after 15 minutes so what’s the point of that fight? Manny knocks him out and probably, Manny won’t even train for that fight. That guy is a quitter. He quit against Mayweather in three rounds. ... [I like Marquez] because he’s got balls. He’s got heart. And he’s stupid enough to think he can beat Manny. So that’s a great fight."
I know Alex Ariza is a very important piece of the Pacquiao team, and has done some great things helping Pacquiao prepare for his big fights. But Ariza is a strength coach. Does it seem odd to anyone else that he'd speak up like this and call out Shane Mosley, who is going to the Hall of Fame, and call him a "quitter"? Those are bold words that I might expect from another fighter, or in this case maybe from Freddie Roach, but Ariza? I don't think he's even wrong about what the fight might look like, though I also would say, just for the sake of argument, that Mosley would make more of an attempt to fight back than Ariza seems to expect, at least early on.
As for Marquez, yes, he is still desperately chasing the fight. But he doesn't expect it will happen:
"I see that it’s more and more unlikely that a third fight between me and him will happen. He definitely doesn’t want anything to do with me because I’m the one who made him suffer."
And speaking of Freddie Roach, he offered this quote, which is not quite true, to be fair:
"We’re not going to fight below 147. ... Manny has fought a perfect six fights in a row at this weight (147 pounds) and looked tremendously well at this class because he’s not killing himself to make the weight."
To nitpick -- or just be right -- Manny has fought two fights with a 147-pound limit (Clottey and Oscar), and one at 150 (Margarito). He fought Hatton at 140 and looked sensational, fought Miguel Cotto at 145, and I honestly have no idea what sixth fight he's talking about at 147, because there haven't even been six fights since his one-fight stint at lightweight.
Truth be told, if they're going to do Pacquiao-Marquez III, making it a 147-pound limit is just plain cheap from the Pacquiao camp. There is not a single question that he can get down to 140, where Marquez will still be at a disadvantage. Setting it for 147 is just plain completely stacking the deck against Marquez, who is older, more worn out, and has proven his inadequacy fighting over 135 the one time he tried to do it.
Of course, Marquez still has business with Michael Katsidis on November 27, so let's not look past that. But if he wins, I think I'm sort of warming to the fight. I think Marquez might actually throw a kick at him if he gets the chance at this point.
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Mayweather would make Ariza quit too
Just sayin’….
Exactly
Ariza
is not a professional boxer.
He needs to shut the fuck up then.
by erod on Nov 17, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
Because no one who isn’t a professional boxer can comment on boxing…
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 17, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To be fair
I might actually agree with erod about commenting on “quitting” during a match. If you aren’t lacing them up, then its really hard for you to tell me that he is “taking the fight off”.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Nov 17, 2010 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
I don't agree with Azira
But, hypothetically, is it not possible for us, as observers, to see that a boxer is quitting? Surely, we have actually encountered several instances of this in just recent years; boxers who give up, or are just there for the paycheque.
My point is that I don’t really feel that Ariza not being a boxer, necessarily makes his comments on boxing any less valid than some one who has boxed.
I may just be being pedantic.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 17, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
So I'm just being a little strange
In my book it is taboo to question the heart of a boxer unless you have the courage to lace them up. I mean any other criticism I think is valid.
He got frustrated and stopped punching. Fine
He thought too hard instead of using instinct. Fine
He overtrained and ran out of gas. Fine
He quit, implying that he doesn’t have heart. Not Fine
It’s a slight difference but I hope these examples clarify my point.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Nov 17, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
In my book it is taboo to question the heart of a boxer unless you have the courage to lace them up.
This seems fair, and I could be inclined to agree, seeing as it must take incredible courage to get into that ring.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 17, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
I get you, but I disagree. It’s a spectator sport. I think questioning Mosley’s heart is kinda stupid, period, but my lack of desire to be hit in the face for money doesn’t make Audley Harrison’s “performance” any less questionable, and where do you go there besides pointing out that Harrison doesn’t have the heart?
Then again I don’t go in for all that modern day gladiator tonight we dine in hell nonsense either. I admire boxers for what they do, but it’s a sport. I don’t really have the desire to line up opposite Ndamukong Suh, either. That’s why I’m not a boxer or a football player. Also I suck at those sports. At this point in my life I prefer golf where I can still blame the equipment. And let me tell you, the equipment is fucking stupid and should go to hell.
Believe me, any time I criticize any fighter’s performance, no matter if it’s stamina or “heart” or ability to take a punch, it comes with the idea that yes, of course, those guys could out-run me on a treadmill, take more punches than me, and kick my ass, but all of that sort of goes without saying, doesn’t it? They’re professional athletes trained in face-punching. I have a web site and snack on Frosted Shredded Wheat.
What I found odd is that Ariza, of all the people, jumped out like this. Not because he’s not a boxer, because I don’t care, he watches the fights same as I do and is entitled to his opinion, but since when did he turn into such a big shot? I mean it’s not like he’s involved in matchmaking or anything. He also might want to cool down with calling Marquez “stupid.” I get what he’s saying, and frankly it’s a great line, but there’s this line somewhere, and I’m not sure what it is, that it feels like he’s stepping over a little bit. It’s like suddenly Alex Ariza is noted boxing expert Alex Ariza because he makes protein shakes for Manny Pacquiao. It feels kind of like the gardener at the Playboy Mansion judging potential models with this air of authority and superiority. I don’t know.
It seems like there are a lot of out of control egos around Pacquiao. What the hell are these guys going to do when Pacquiao eventually loses a fight?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 17, 2010 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
I agree abouit Ariza, Scott
But I’m not so sure the gardner doesn’t get to prune a few bushes every once in a while.
1. You’re right about it’s a spectator sport and spectators have a right to judge heart or anything else, I think I’m reacting to the likes of a Merchant, Kellerman, or Lampley type doing it, even tho they’re spectators too. But what would they know about heart?
2. I don’t think Pacquaio’s going to lose a fight, unless he fights, and loses to, Mayweather. The fight is unlikely, and I’d give Pacquaio the edge to win it, tho’ no foregone conclusion. But because I don’t think that fight will happen at all, and nobody else can beat him, and he does have another job, I think he’ll fight a few, maybe as little as two, more times and quit.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Almost nobody, “politician” or not, gets out at the right time. Sugar Ray Leonard was once unbelievable, too. Tommy Hearns is still trying to fight. It took an ugly car crash to get Roberto Duran to quit, and he was 50. Now we’ve got Roy Jones Jr. hanging on forever.
Every week I check around to see if Oscar de la Hoya is fighting again. This week there was a rumor they’d approached Hatton about a double comeback fight in the UK.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 17, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
I wish that were true. As does Manny's mom.
But I fear that he loves the limelight and oves Fighting….a tad too much. And like many others, he won’t leave early.
Hopefully, his public service rewards will soon trump boxing.
He’s given so much already.
I hear that, but the limelight will remain, and there are other fields of battle calling. He’s extremely bright, imo. I’m guessing 4 more at most, and unless one of them’s Lil Floyd, no more losses, and maybe not even then. That’s just it, they crave the limelight, the real, just-for-them frantic cheering that color commentating doesn’t come near. But Manny will still, and probably always, have that.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
National politics might come close
Anything else ….problem not.
The atmosphere in Texas was exhilarating.
Very tough to beat,
Not really sure.
I mean, in some cases it’s just obvious, y’know?
Ortiz vs Maidana
Duran vs Leonard
Oscar vs Pacquaio
Bell vs Adamek
Freitas vs Diaz
Golota vs Tyson
Those are the some that immediately come to mind.
I take your point, but there are some cases when it really is either that or nothing. That said, I think Ariza should shut the fuck up.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
When did Mayweather come into the picture? lol!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Nov 17, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
To be fair to Erod
Mayweather is mentioned in Ariza’s statement.
by Matt Mosley on Nov 17, 2010 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
Katsidis is on his way to a beat down. Look what Juan Diaz did to him and what Marquez did to Diaz, twice. I say if Marquez gets a stoppage and looks great I would certainly be down for a 3rd fight between him and Manny. But the 3rd fight will be the least competative one of them all, I feel.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Katsidis had a bizarre gameplan against Diaz that made no sense then and makes no sense now. I really wouldn’t recommend Diaz-Katsidis as a gauge for Katsidis.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 17, 2010 9:15 AM EST up reply actions
Katsidis
will give Marquez a good fight,at the very least.
He seems to have found a resurgence to his career and Marquez is getting old and on the slide compared to what he was a few years ago.
I really dont remember the fight round for round but I do remember him getting his ass handed to him. We’ll see. Like I said if Marquez looks great then yeah I’d like that Trilogy. Where would they even do it? Please no more Cowboys stadium. They should do it at Staples.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Nov 17, 2010 9:21 AM EST up reply actions
Genuine question.
Have you ever actually watched Michael Katsidis fight?
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 17, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
Uh, yes.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Nov 18, 2010 8:29 AM EST up reply actions
Uh, right. Then you’ll know that his fight with Juan Diaz was an enormously obvious one-off, and that his attempt to “box” has never been repeated. You’ll also know that he poses a sizable challenge to just about anyone he gets in the ring with. Obviously.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 20, 2010 7:03 AM EST up reply actions
Staples doesn't make much sense
Either it’s Vegas or it’s Dallas (or some other stadium that is (a) willing to pay a site fee and (b) can put enough butts in seats to make up the pricing difference from Vegas). They’d need to charge up the wazoo to put it in LA.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
It's not even that
Jerry Jones paid big money to have the fights in Dallas. Staples Center isn’t going to do that. You need to make up the lost revenue somewhere, and the only other place to do that really is Vegas.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
If that quote is true
and i’m not questioning you but i am some of those kind of sites,i am a bit suprised at Ariza and think he is out of order and certainly unfair on Shane there.
The fight went the full 12 so how is he a quitter?
If he said that my respect for Ariza has gone down a notch.
Shane also hurt Floyd probably worse than anyone else has before.
Have yeself a quick gander at Floyd/Castillo 1...
That’s a great fight…. :)
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I’ve seen it as i would have thought would be obvious. :)
He didn’t ‘hurt’ Floyd more than Shane did.
He may have pushed him harder but he he didn’t hurt him.
I'll bet at the end of the fight Floyd was hurting more after Castillo than he was after Mosley.
But I know what you mean.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
So as the story goes, Freddie Roach praises Shane Mosley and tells him that he’s too good a fighter and there’s not enough money to make a Pacquiao-Mosley fight. Time passes, Mosley gets older and now Ariza, a strength conditioning coach calls Mosley out and says he’s a quitter with no cardio?
Shane is 39. Pacquiao is 31. Yeah there’s probably going to be a huge difference come fight night in their cardiovascular performance. And yet, Paul Williams is 29 years old.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
I get most of your point.
And I agree.
I have no idea whatyour point is re- Paul Williams.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
No real point. Its just interesting how he’s never mentioned as a viable opponent for Pacquiao.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Nov 18, 2010 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
Mainly because he's about 4 foot taller... :)
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Ariza is being a loudmouth buffoon about it by calling him a “quitter”, but he’s not really saying anything that much different than what a lot of us thought the night of the fight: Shane stopped trying to win about halfway through the fifth round. It could’ve been due to being tired, war-worn, outmatched or all three, but by the late rounds it was pretty clear that he wasn’t really fighting to win.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I can’t remember now if anyone on here brought up the possibility that up until the Mayweather fight, Mosley had still been using PEDs in training, and because they did the Olympic style testing for the Floyd bout, well, Mosley looked the way he looked. I hate to even think that because Shane has been one of my favorites over the years. But as soon as the third round started and I saw Shane mouth-breathing, all the bells started ringing and I said “My goodness, he’s gassed already!”
You’re right, Jrok, he wasn’t fighting to win, he was fighting to stay upright.
Well there was no Olympic testing for the Sergio Mora fight and he was breathing heavy and looked like crap in that one, too.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 17, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Frankly, he looked sort of out of it against Mayorga too. Maybe not breathing heavy, but not doing enough to make him breathe heavy either. Shane looked more active and focused in r2 of Mayweather than he did in rounds 3-8 of Mayorga combined.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I guess…Mosley’s just not Mosley anymore. In any case, I don’t want to see him put in against Pacquiao. Pointless…
Painful to watch...as well.
I have no more interest in seeing Mosely beat out to pasture than I do watching RJJ get hurt one more time. I loved(d) Shane….but he’s shot.
And since when did Ariza start predicting how fights will turn out (since today by the looks of it :)…Thats Freddie’s MO .
I have to be honest and say Ariza looks like he couldn’t fight his way out of a paper bag but who knows,maybe he could?
He should keep his mouth shut about these kind of things though.
That guy is a quitter. He quit against Mayweather in three rounds. … [I like Marquez] because he’s got balls. He’s got heart.
Of course Shane proved in both Vernon Forrest fights and the 2nd Winky Wright fight what a quitter he is.He has shown it his whole career,obvioulsy.
He is 39 and close to,if not shot ,Ariza,you tool.
Truth be told, if they’re going to do Pacquiao-Marquez III, making it a 147-pound limit is just plain cheap from the Pacquiao camp. There is not a single question that he can get down to 140, where Marquez will still be at a disadvantage. Setting it for 147 is just plain completely stacking the deck against Marquez, who is older, more worn out, and has proven his inadequacy fighting over 135 the one time he tried to do it.
Well said.
This kind of crap is where i start to get annoyed at,and lose a bit of respect for,Freddie and co.
agree completely
Thats totally disgusting and I lost a lot of respect for Roach when I heard that quote before. Unlike Scott, I wouldn’t warm to that at all, its a very, very bad mismatch and ends early. I understand if he doesn’t want Pacquiao fighting at below 147, and then says, ‘Marquez has proven to be completely ineffective at 147 against Mayweather, soft and slow, and so that fight is simply not going to happen’. There’s no onus on him to say, ’we’ll fight at 140 to give Marquez more of a chance’ but its morally wrong to imply it could be done at 147.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
the reality of it is..
First off, I agree that a fight between Pacquiao and JMM at 147lbs wouldnt be competitive at all but Roach has said he will not have Pacquiao fall below WW. That being said, Pacquiao wont have to kill himself to make a weight of 140 AND as we have seen in his past fights, wont come in at 147lbs anyways. He will likely come in at 144/145 and by fight night only put on another pound or two. I think having the weight contracted at 147 just gives Pacquiao the advantage of not having to worry about cutting weight during training camp. Pacquiao has no business falling below 140lbs. He likes the weight he is at, he is tha main man right now so his team gets to call the shots.
Pac v JMM at any weight above 135 is a joke. And even that weight is too high for JMM, imo. If Roach’s balls are so big why doesn’t he call out Paul Williams at 147? More boxing biz BS.
Well, to be fair, Tall Paul is a little busy contending for the middleweight throne. And if Sergio wins this time, we might be looking at a third fight between them.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Who R U Picking?.... :)
…for that one btw?
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I think Paul Williams is going to take it, actually.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
plan
will go in big on him then :)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Hey don’t blame me if Sergio “Pavlik’s” Paul! He is damn good, and I personally had him winning their first fight. Actually this is one of the toughest title fight to call all year, up there with Froch/Kessler. I am leaning Williams because of his unusually strong experience fighting fellow southpaws, but I’m not at all sure about it.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
If Williams wins this weekend there’s no reason a fight with Pac couldn’t be made for February or March. And if Martinez wins, I’m sure he’d love a shot at a Pac payday, so that fight could be made. In any event, a fight with JMM at 140 or 147 is a farce.
In any event, a fight with JMM at 140 or 147 is a farce.
Well, yeah. But you said he should be calling out Paul. Paul is busy. Sergio is busy. The future is uncertain.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I know HBO do this regularly
but i think it could be of some significance that they are showing the Pac v Margarito replay on the same broadcast as Williams v Martinez.
If nothing else it should give more exposure to the two middleweight title contenders and the more casual fans will know who they are should any future negotiations happen.
by Matt Mosley on Nov 17, 2010 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
A JMM fight at 140 is a farce, yet a Martinez or Williams fight at 160 isn’t? Are you serious? Let’s put it into perspective here. Pac is a 145 pound, 5’6" dude. How is a fight at 140 a farce? Because that’s not JMM’s ideal weight? Who’s to say that 160 will still be ideal for Pac? Wouldn’t a 160 fight be a farce too?
by erasedcitizen on Nov 17, 2010 8:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Busy this Saturday. Not three months from now. And I’m not saying Roach should be calling out anyone. But if he’s going to do it, don’t pick the one guy you know has no chance against your fighter at the weight you’re sure to dictate. That’s chicken-sh*t.
I don’t get what Roach not campaigning for a fight with Paul Williams has anything to do with his balls, Pac’s balls or anybody else’s balls. I like Williams, and like a lot other guys here was calling for Floyd Mayweather to fight him back when he was squeezing in 147. He was one of the guys we wanted to see contend for the title (along with Cotto, Mosley, Margarito and, for some guys, even Berto) when Mayweather chose Ricky Hatton.
But here’s the main thing about Paul Williams: He cannot draw flies to a picnic. His visibility is getting better, but he is a financial risk. So here’s a guy who is busy, who is fighting at 160, who might lose that fight and get drawn into a trilogy (or into a long-delayed fight with Kelly Pavlik) and who makes Chad Dawson look like Julio Cesar Chavez in terms of a loyal folowing…. and Roach is expected to name-drop him for some reason?
A Marquez fight would be stupid, just as Marquez fattening himself up to 142 to fight a 147 Mayweather was stupid, but at least both made money sense.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Williams' lack of drawing power is a bit of a myth
He’s not much of a live gate draw, but he’s actually a pretty well proven TV draw. Whether he could draw viewers to a PPV though, I don’t know.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Whether he could draw viewers to a PPV though, I don’t know.
Well, honestly that’s what I’m talking about. We’ll see when/if he gets in one. It’s definitely one of the reasons his phone doesn’t exactly ring off the hook though. It’s sort of an unknown at this point, and when taking a money risk, I think most people would prefer a known to an unknown quantity.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I feel that since Pacquaio has been making people cut weight to get a fight with him, he should now return the favor and cut for Marquez.
No Shane Mosley. Freddie Roach had his chance to temp faith against Mosley a few years back and instead vowed only to fight Mosley if (you guessed it) he cut down to 140lb. …..But since then Mayweather dominated Mosley, so its no point in fighting another fighter that Mayweather already beat.
I feel that since Pacquaio has been making people cut weight to get a fight with him, he should now return the favor and cut for Marquez.
I agree.And i think Manny can do 140 easy.He could probably do 135 if he had enough time and did it properly.
For me,if the Marquez fight is over 135 it’s not worth doing.
by Matt Mosley on Nov 17, 2010 11:28 AM EST up reply actions
Of course he can do it easy
I’ve heard that he has to stuff himself at the dinner table and has to take in over 7,000 calories daily just to maintain that weight. So all he would have to do now is just eat normally and the weight would gradually come off without weakening him.
by The Floorer on Nov 17, 2010 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
Thinking about it now,i really think he could do 135 without much trouble at all as it is not that long ago he was rematching Marquez at 130lbs.
Yes,he’s put muscle on since but he looked chunky when he weighed in at 146 for the Clottey fight.He also lost a bit of speed in that fight,imo.
135lbs in six months time would not be that hard.It’s not like Roy coming back down to 175 after bulking up to cruiserweight for one fight.
As you alluded to,Manny is probably struggling to keep the weight on!
The counterpunching Marquez still has that style to give Manny problems,imo,but it has to be at a fair weight.Freddie obviously knows this and that’s likely why he won’t consider coming down.
by Matt Mosley on Nov 17, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
According to Boxrec,Pacquiao weighed in at 138lbs for the Hatton fight,which was less than 18 months ago.I certainly don’t recall him looking drained at the weigh-in.
I shouldn’t bother going on about it though cos there’s no chance Team Roach will make it an even playing field.
by Matt Mosley on Nov 17, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yep
But to be honest with you, Roach or Pacquaio dont have to make it a fair fight. Pacquaio is the star. He definetly doesn’t need Marquez, however Marquez definetly does need a Pacquaio fight. So if Pacquioa wants to make him jump thru fire hoops to get the fhght, more power to him.
power to him but then people will have the right to criticize his choices … there are 2 choices if he were to actually fight marquez 1. fight him at a weight where the fight has significance 2. make the fight a farce at 147
Yeah I agree, read my comments above
Im just saying that Pacquaio is more in a position to make demands, rules and stipulations in a contract then Marquez because right now Pacquaio is at the top. Thats why when the Pacquaio-Mayweather fight contract was being written there was all of the demands from both sides because both feel that they’ve earned the right to make numerous, crazy demands because of their standing.
Marquez doesn’t have any standing. Boxing wont lose any fans or viewers if Marquez quit fighting. If Marquez retired today or tomorrow no one would care. If Pacquaio or Mayweather decided to hang up the gloves boxing would take a hit and it would be a huge story.
If Pacquaio or Mayweather decided to hang up the gloves boxing would take a hit and it would be a huge story.
Mayweather’s already retired three times and I don’t recall much impact on his announcements or even the time he sat out two years, to be honest with you.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
Because nobody believed him
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Why would they next time? It might be believable if he goes to jail or suffers some sort of awful injury in a jet ski accident or something. Do people really believe boxers when they retire? Any of them? Would anyone really believe Pacquiao?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 2:31 AM EST up reply actions
I though he had to have hand theraphy for his knuckles because he broke his hands a couple times. I cant give you a valid answer for the other two.
I guess he wants to see his impact on the sport and people’s reaction every time he retires and unretires.
Floyd has nagging injuries and has for years. But if he’s retiring to lay back and watch boxing crumble without him, he’s seen nothing, which is probably why he keeps “coming back,” to validate his belief that he’s somehow massively important and not just a contemporary star like anyone else, ever. Yes there are legacies and lasting memories and legends, and Floyd has some legacy and has created some memories and is a great fighter and has done very well making money. But the truth is neither Mayweather nor Pacquiao are boxing. Oscar de la Hoya wasn’t, either. Neither was Mike Tyson. It’s too bold of a statement. Boxing is a whole lot of people and there really isn’t as much dropoff in interest as people might expect when big stars are gone for good, because someone else always comes along. Even in an era where boxing is a marginalized sport in the U.S., someone comes along. And anyway, fighters almost always flame out and at least briefly soil their reputations before they retire (like Tyson), or if we’re lucky they truly pass the torch (like Oscar) to a new big star (Oscar did it twice, basically, with both Floyd and Manny).
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
They don't have to make it a fair fight
But then we have the right to criticize them for not doing so. That’s the trade off. Beating Marquez at 147 does NOTHING to help Pacquiao’s legacy, just like it did nothing to help Mayweather’s legacy.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
And I see Boxzilla already said just that
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Nobody is doing anybody any favors. Let's be clear about that.
This is ’Prize" fighting at the elite level where leverage has always and will alway rule.
BTW, I think Pac made a mistake and gave Margarito, a full welterweight for all but a few fights in ten years, three extra pounds just for the silly trinket. No one is buying the 8th title anyhow…so why let Margarito have the extra weight.
I know. In the end, it didnt matter.
hit reply, mon ami :)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
or not...lol
just pointing out its there ;)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
simplicity itself :)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Use the reply feature so these things are easier to follow. That’s why the feature is there.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 17, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
I honestly have no idea what sixth fight he’s talking about at 147, because there haven’t even been six fights since his one-fight stint at lightweight.
I believe Freddie is referring to the David Diaz fight when Manny rehydrated to 147 on fight night. This was one of the reasons why Manny’s camp felt that the WW limit with Oscar was not as outlandish as it initially sounded.
I believe he was just wrong about how many fights they’ve had.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 17, 2010 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
Easier just to hit ‘post’
Only ever so marginally.
The reply button is so convenient anyway, I can’t see how people don’t love it.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 17, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions
Some people seem to find it tough to follow when there's a long subthread
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
And I'll admit it took a while for me to get used to after SBN switched to this format
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
To go against the crowd here, I actually agree with Ariza. I’ll admit I’m not a Mosley fan anymore. He allowed Mayweather to be the more exciting fighter, which is not an easy thing to do. If he fought Pac it would end up looking a lot like Pac-Clottey. At least Margarito tried to mix it up.
"Mug an old lady, and if you have the right connections the WBO will rank you seventh." -Steve Farhood
If Pacquaio does fight Marquez and the fight is at 147
Then he deserves whatever criticism he gets. We’ve all seen Pacquiao. He weighed in at 144 his last fight. He can make the light welterweight limit without any problem. I can understand maybe not wanting to drain to get to 135, but I suspect he could make it there as well. Also, if he is willing to get to 135 and he wins, it would be a MUCH more significant accomplishment, as that would be his fifth true championship.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I think that the same criterion should apply to Manny as many of us
(sob!) wanted to hold Mayweather to: Fight the best.
If Williams can make 147 lb. that is the fight someone looking for a true challenge should take.
The constant talk about money, when someone is already worth an awful lot of it, gets—
Well, I’m at a loss for the right word and don’t want to sound insulting, but I do think it gets tired.
Floyd’s fans used to scream that he was held to a double standard: I don’t want to do that.
P.S. If Manny needs a “cushion” in case he blows what he has, no amount of money will be enough. See: Tyson, et al.
by Don From Prov on Nov 17, 2010 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
While I do agree that
Perhaps the ultimate challenge for Pacquiao right now, is to face Paul Williams, I do not feel that he could really be strongly criticised for not doing so.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 17, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions
One of my friends last night said to me that he thought Pacquaio could beat Nikolai Valuev.
I thought about that for a while, and I findit really funny: I almost give him a chance.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Haha!
Pacquaio would struggle to land any legal blows at all!
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 18, 2010 7:19 AM EST up reply actions
I'm being deadly serious when I say this:
I’m not sure Valuev would land a glove on Manny. Really.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Surely he woulds just have to lean on him a few times
And Pacquaio would be ruined?
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 18, 2010 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure he'd be quick enough to even do that, to be honest.
I mean, with Pacquaio darting around all over the place, Valuev would have to employ some wrestling moves to even get near him, and those would earn him a prompt DQ.
I’m not saying Pac wins… well, actually, I kind of am. Aside from kicking Manny, I’m not sure what Valuev could do to him.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Well
It’s about as likely as the Maywetaher fight, so I think that you should write an article on it!
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 19, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
I think Floyd hits harder than Valuev, for one thing.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
He won't be strongly criticised--
but to me, it really is simple: Fight the best.
by Don From Prov on Nov 18, 2010 9:32 AM EST up reply actions
I agree.... but fighting Williams.... I mean, Williams might one day fight at heavyweight, with his frame.
I wouldn’t class it as a disgrace is Pacquaio had the chance to fight Williams and didn’t.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Only he isn't a HW now (and you are exaggerating a bit).
If he can make 147 lbs.—and he claims he can—than he is a welterweight contender—
Who can’t happen to get any welterweights to fight him.
Say I am a point guard in basketball and the opposing team’s point guard is six inches taller than me; then I better find ways to exploit what my strengths are. There’s no sitting out because the other guy is too tall, or too fast or—
Well, the idea is obvious. So, yes, no disgrace, but being right here in unfolding time and history and listening to some folks who say that Freddie has carefully picked Manny’s fights based on particular criteria, I do wonder. One part of me wants to believe that I’m lucky enough to be watching one of the very best ever ply his trade, but—
Safest thing: Fight the best.
No more Uncle Bob incest.
by Don From Prov on Nov 18, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
He isn't a heavyweight now,
but he quite clearly isn’t a welterwight either. He’s fighting for the lineal middleweight championship.
And I wasn’t exaggerating about Williams being able to fight at heavyweight one day. He’s as tall as David Haye, and has a MUCH longer reach. Once upon a time no-one thought James Toney would be a 260lb tub of grease, and I don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility that Williams fights one day as a heavyweight.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I wouldn't say
that he “quite clearly” is not a welterweight—
Not if given the chance to fight at that weight.
Obviously, he is fighting at MW in his most present incarnation.
Until I see him given a meaningful offer at 147 lbs. and refuse it, I’ll take his word that he could make weight.
P.S. If you ever make it to the U.S. and at any point when you are here can slide to Massachusetts—
Well, if Williams is fighting at heavyweight I’ll buy you a Snickers Bar.
by Don From Prov on Nov 18, 2010 12:28 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know how serious Roach is with the JMM at 147 talk, really. May just be a negotiating ploy, as I’m sure you guys know.
I think Pacquiao COULD make it to 135, but it’s hard to say what effect it would have on him at this point. His punch resistance has gotten better at the higher weight, he’s retained his explosiveness, his punching power…I actually think he’s looked better in the higher weight classes than he did against Diaz at 135, but that could just be the opposition— at times it looked more like Manny trying out his new body than him actually fighting someone—does that make sense? I think a 135 Pacquiao at this stage would still be a pretty good version of Manny—but probably not the “best” version.
Now, a 140 lb version, I think is THE BEST version of Pacquiao, to be honest. Personally, I feel he’d crush anyone in that weight class. But then, 140 wouldn’t be the best version of JMM…
Really, I’m not interested in that fight anymore. I’ve let it go. I’m perfectly happy with looking back on two greats who twice dueled at a time when one of them, an all-time great, was reaching his peak, and the other, while not as physically gifted, was one of the finest practitioners of the sweet science, and the clash meant each man’s attributes neutralized the other’s.
Pacquiao has improved exponentially since the 2nd meeting. Has Marquez? No. He’s slowed down and has taken more shots than ever. We know who wins this one now. It’s Pacquiao. It will be quick, it will be decisive. So I really don’t see the point.
I say, if he can’t get Mayweather…then…give Saul Alvarez a shot at 147 in Manila for his farewell fight…
Saul Alvarez at 147 lb. is certainly more intriguing than
Marquez dragging himself up for a beatdown. Floyd already fully spanked him at welterweight: What’s the point?
by Don From Prov on Nov 17, 2010 4:52 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, a changing of the guard type of thing, you know? Give Mexico’s next big thing a chance at redeeming his country’s honor in the “Mexicutioner’s” home turf, then retire win or lose. I can see how they might be able to sell that farewell fight. Alvarez probably still gets dismantled, but he’ll bounce back, being so young and all.
That never happens unless Alvarez signs with Top Rank
Eventually GBP will feed Mosley to Alvarez though, I suspect.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I agree totally that 140lbs would be Pacquiao's best weight.
At 147, I don’t want to see Pac vs Bradley/Alexander. At 140, I’d quite like to.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Yeah
Those fights are far more appealling at 140.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 18, 2010 7:19 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, those would be good fights. I doubt either one gets a shot though, and even if they did, I suspect they’d be torn to shreds from a Pacman with little to fear from the average punching Bradley or the inconsistent Alexander. I think they may take an early round or two due to speed and boxing ability, but then Manny turns it up and ends things soon after.
I think for me it really has come to a point where it’s Mayweather or bust. If you think about it, this is just about as good a time as any for Pacman to retire. If he walked away today, I don’t think I’d feel all that bad about it, know what I mean?
By the way, Chaos, looking forward to sinking my teeth into Pacman-Duran in Tszyu-Arguello in your time machine thread…
Thanks, man,
I’ll be doing the next installment over the weekend, maybe tomorrow depending on how bad my hangover is. I’m really getting on it tonight though, so probably sunday :)
You’re another one I’d welcome feedback from: if you feel like suggesting any fights for the Time Machine, or just feedback on the format, or even opinions on the projected fights, I’d welcome your input. :)
Email me- my email is in my profile.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Any big name Heavy of the past
Vs Wlad.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 19, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Big George...
…would make Hayden cry. In his prime, Foreman was one of the scariest things I’ve ever seen. I’m not sure Wlad’s chin could hold up to a Foreman jab. I actually think older brother Vitali would stand a better chance…
Pacquaio-Mayweather
and if they still dont want to fight each other then, Pacquaio- Martinez, Mayweather-P. Williams or vice-versa. Those are the ONLY fights that I believe can enhance each fighter’s legacy at this point.
To nitpick- or just be right -
I think Roach is talking about Manny’s fight night weight, not necessarily his weight class in terms of weigh-in, because he’s been rehydrating into the mid 140s since the third Marquez fight, I believe. Fighting Diaz was probably the first time that making weight wasn’t about really draining him.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Nov 17, 2010 3:10 PM EST reply actions
woops, meant the second marquez fight. all this talk of a third slipped me up.
by Arthur from Anaheim Calling on Nov 17, 2010 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Others have said it above...but I find Ariza's statements distasteful.
Unnnecessary…..and completely out of line.
What silliness
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
Just say he's old and shot
not that hard to do and then we move on…..
He should really shut the fuck up….
You have to earn the right to diss someone, and Ariza is a nobody in this sport. People will forget his name within 5 years. Mosley is anything but a quitter.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Manny seems to have a thing for loudmouths in his camp
Ariza’s just trying to fit in with Roach and Koncz.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
One person is a three-division champ while the other doesn’t even have a wikipedia page.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Nov 18, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Zing
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 18, 2010 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
This might be my favorite “burn” of the year.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
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