Shane Mosley Appears First in Line to Face Manny Pacquiao
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 7:31 PM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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It's been said before, but now it's being said again. Over at FanHouse, Bernard Hopkins is calling out Manny Pacquiao for having never fought a top black (by which he means a black American) fighter.
"Listen, this ain't a racial thing, but then again, maybe it is. But the style that is embedded in most of us black fighters, that style could be a problem to any other style of fighting."
Michael Koncz offered some thoughts about how fighters have to prove they have drawing power to get a fight with Manny Pacquiao, which could be read as a reason he hasn't fought Andre Berto or Paul Williams, but we all know that's nonsense. Joshua Clottey has zero drawing power and Pacquiao fought him. Why? Clottey works for Top Rank, and thus Top Rank controlled the paydays and everyone at the firm was happy.
Bob Arum, though, says that he's got some challenges for Pacquiao's next fight in mind, and lo and behold, they're all black American fighters:
"[T]here's no argument there that he has not fought a top African American fighter. But the notion that he would not fight an African American fighter is ridiculous. ... A fight with Shane Mosley would answer that situation. And maybe the winner of Devon Alexander and Tim Bradley would answer that. Andre Berto might be a consideration, also, yes."
As much as I like Shane Mosley, no, fighting the 39-year-old Mosley does not answer the question of when Pacquiao's going to fight a fast, in-prime black fighter. Berto's a better fight now. So is the Bradley-Alexander winner. Mosley is damaged goods and didn't just look bad against Mayweather, which just about everyone does, but looked really bad against Sergio Mora, too. Mora isn't easy to look good against, but it wasn't a case of looking bad against Mora, but just plain looking bad. Still Mosley, even exhausted, did keep trying to land big shots in that fight. Maybe the all-action style of Pacquiao would help him find his youth again. Probably not, but maybe. He's come back from being "washed up" before.
Still, the other guys are more in line with the idea Hopkins is talking about. But it goes back to following. Mosley has more than the other fighters. Tim Bradley and Andre Berto struggle to sell tickets at home. Alexander can sell in St. Louis, but does he "travel well"?
Paul Williams is not likely. Arum calls him "just too big," and considering he's about nine inches taller than Manny, it's hard to argue. Williams hasn't made 147 pounds since 2008 and there's no reason to really assume he can, other than his team says he can, but teams say lots of things.
For now, it looks like Shane Mosley is first in line.
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I voted Berto, but that's only because Pac apparently won't fight at 140 again.
If it were a choice between BErto at 147 and the winner of the Bradley/Alexander fight at 140, I’d choose the latter. I just don’t see that either of those guys will make the move up and be competitive.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
This should be a great fight and I don’t wanna bring the arguement back up, but its not suprising he wants Mosley now.
It’s not surprising, but it’s not really for the reason you’re arguing. It’s not surprising because boxing operates on money first and, for the most part, lack of risk second. Mosley is a much bigger star than Berto, Alexander or Bradley. I think it’s a shit fight FOR the reasons you’re arguing, but I don’t think it’s reason #1 why Mosley is the one in line. I think it’s reason #2. I’m not really arguing with you, am I?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
Because Mosley’s well past his prime.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
Freddie and Arum differ on this one.
And I have always felt that Manny is closer to Freddie on Boxing that he is to Arum. I may be wrong but most of the matches Manny have fought have been ones that Freddie prefers. Arum’s considerations are critical for sure.
But first and last it’s Freddie who helps pick the opponents.
In this case, Freddie thinks the fight with Shane is crap.
Arum obviously doesn’t because he’s all business.
As we should expect.
Mosley, to me, doesn't represent an interesting match.
But Margo shouldn’t have either, and probably wouldn’t have—
If I wasn’t projection realities onto it
And if there hadn’t been so many ridiculous Margo “facts” that he became—if not interesting—present to me again
by Don From Prov on Nov 19, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
Roach has been a master mind game player and match maker. He belongs in the Hall for those two reasons
alone. Never mind his training expertise.
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
I've got your back, bro
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
I went with Berto. I really do think that juuuust maybe, that’s the sort of fight where we see the Andre Berto who created real hype again. I honestly think he just needs a challenge, and there’s no bigger challenge than fighting one of the Big Two.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
also if he fails, then he fails
But at least then he had his shot.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions
He would fail
i’m pretty sure of that. :)
It would probably be an ok fight while it lasted but i see a late stoppage for Manny.
I went for Bradley/Alexander.
Berto has nothing to lose against Manny.
A dominant loss makes Pacquiao look even more like an unstoppable destroyer, and he was just another unfortunate victim of the streak of violence. A competitive loss has Berto coming out looking golden, with his only defeat being a close fight to the current pound for pound champion and arguably the best of the generation. If he wins… well gotdamn. He’s got the option for a huge fight with Mayweather, rematch Pac and set up a trilogy in case of a loss…
Then again, I’m an idiot and a causal boxing fan. What do I know?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
But
It’s not a question of who Berto wants to fight, I’m sure that he’d take this in an instant, but rather of what Arum wants to happen.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 19, 2010 7:15 AM EST up reply actions
Arum is a greedy, power-grabbing dick.
What’s good for boxing is not necessarily good for boxing—not at all.
by Don From Prov on Nov 19, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
Yes
He’s a horrible man, and has probably hurt the sport a great deal.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 19, 2010 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
A competitive loss has Berto coming out looking golden
I don’t think it would be all that competitive to be honest.
Berto went life and death with Luis Collazo after all.
by Matt Mosley on Nov 19, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions
I would
not be against the fight happening though as it seems like one of the best that can be made in the circumstances,especially if Berto takes Hernandez out in impressive fashion.
by Matt Mosley on Nov 19, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Berto/Alexander/Bradley would all be much better fights, but I voted Mosley because his name is the only one that most people who buy PPVs would recognize. I love seeing boxing generate 1M+ PPV buys. Pac/Mosley gives us the best chance to put up a big number.
I’m the opposite. I often hate seeing boxing put up 1M+ PPV buys, because it gives people a reason to go, “Hey! Nothing wrong with boxing! Look at this!” but it doesn’t push any actual interest in the sport, and the problems that are there remain every single time. Nobody cares what next week’s fight is, and nothing changes.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
I'm shocked that Berto is winning
Berto is extremely unproven still, like it or not. If Pacquiao beats Berto, everyone will just point out that Berto’s never beaten anyway.
Bradley/Alexander winner for me by a long shot.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Yeah, but if Pacquiao beats Mosley he beat an old man who looked like crap in three of his last four fights before fighting Manny, and properdave is all, “I told y’all!” and I’m like “Yeah I know, properdave.”
I think Berto’s a better physical match for Manny than the Bradley-Alexander winner, especially at 147 (Bradley and Alexander will fight there soon enough, but now and against Manny ain’t the time for me).
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Word appppp
"He's the straw that makes the drink go."
by Thelonious Dunk on Nov 18, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions
I resmble this comment
an old man
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
You can call me a hater, but I dont hate Mannys preformances, I dont hate watching him fight, I dont hate him as a person.
What drives me insane is people saying -
“Manny is proving immune to size disadvantages. It’s impossible to ignore at this point that Manny Pacquiao is not just beating people, but retiring them or seriously changing the trajectory of their careers.”
or even better Arum comparing his fights to Leonard / Duran / Hagler / Hearns.
Get some perspective.
I can ignore how he can turn down Mosley after a dominant preformance and then fight him when he has been spanked. But i’ll be damn if i have to listern to
‘OMG Manny has set a new level of greatness by beating a black future Hall of Famer’
I will go on a rampage.
by properdave on Nov 19, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
How do you do this rec thing.
Raised hand: I rec properdave.
by Don From Prov on Nov 19, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Go to "actions" at the bottom of his post
click on it and it will give you the option to rec his post.
Fuck, that didn't seem to work out.
How does one turn these computer-things on??
Well, now I see that I have a star next to Dave and the word Unrec?
No, I don’t want to unrec; I want to rec and have a thumbs up and the cool, green coloring on my post.
by Don From Prov on Nov 19, 2010 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
To me....it's never black or white.
Manny and Floyd have both been the beneficiaries of great matchmaking. Almost every one at this level has lost to someone else…at some time. Floyd excluded. That’s how it rolls at the elite level. Losses come with the territory until someone lands on top.
In Floyd’s case, he has either over selected his opponents…..or as with Manny, avoids them. For now at least. Manny has IMO and the growing majority of others, fought better and better competition at the elite welterweight level. It’s very hard to refute that fact.
I have no interest in Shane now. So in that regard, I agree with Freddie Roach. No one really cares to see him at this point against Manny. And they certainly don’t want to pay big bucks. Frankly….I don’t think his fight will ever get made.
A lot can happen in six months. Manny is under no obligation but to rest up after fighting with a tough resilient hombre like Margarito….a man that on a bad day comes with bad intentions…and still throws sixty punches per round.
Let’s see who comes through these next couple of months ready for the next level. White , Black, Brown Yellow or Pink…..the best will hopefully have a shot at the top.
As far as ‘slick’, I posted this because I was offended by a remark that would at one time have described Latino men (West Side Story) carrying knives to a gun fight….but today is used by Bernard, a man never afraid to stir the racial pot.
Slick to me means being diabolically intelligent in coming up with a strategy and executing it to perfection….and getting over on an equally prepared opponent.
Joe Frazier wasn’t slick…..but he fought a fight that put the slickest of them all right on his Ass. Now that is Slick.
You can call me a hater
Nobody did. I was saying you’d be right as rain in this case. 30000% right. I’d honestly give him almost no real credit for beating Shane Mosley unless Mosley shockingly showed up and looked like at least 2007 Mosley again.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 19, 2010 8:19 PM EST up reply actions
I voted Alexander/Bradley winner.
Anyone know if The Ring is planning on stripping Manny and putting the 140 championship on the line for Alexander vs Bradley since Fredie Roach has said they don’t want to fight lower than 147?
The 140 championship is vacant and has been for a while. I think they stripped him before the Clottey fight.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
or shortly after
It was earlier this year.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Traditional championships no longer mean very much. It’s all about catchweights these days so that can open up more possibilities. SSM is a shot fighter. I said this two years ago and I mean it even more now. He can no longer pull the trigger and he lacks stamina.
Fighting Manny would be a nice payday before he was stopped (for the first time in his career).
Bradley, if he beats Alexander, has the style to give Manny a solid fight, but how much would that fight garner in $$$$$$$$$$?
Berto really doesn’t deserve it, but then, neither did Margo.
Leave Mayweather as arguably the only viable opponent.
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Would rather see Bradley at 140 lb.
Want to see Tall Paul at 147 lb. The rest = somewhat of a yawn.
Manny is in a peculiar position: He has become the man who size cannot defeat, but he is not beating prime welterweights—
Was Clottey prime, but what does a prime Clottey equal anyway? That old pose-dancing shit.
by Don From Prov on Nov 19, 2010 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
Name the best 5 welterweights in the sport right now.
Two of them are Manny and Floyd.
The other three are Manny Pacquiao victims, unless you put Berto in there.
I don’t really get your point about ‘prime’ welterweights, if I’m honest.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Also, Mosley would be a good measurig stick vis a vis Mayweather, particularly now that May has made SSM even more shot. And Freddie knows this. It may not appear to be the case, but I truly believe Roach has a great sense of history and what Manny’s, and by extension, his legacies can be.
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
In Dallas
I was a guest of Top Rank. When I went to get my tickets and passes earlier in the day, there were two people in the VIP offices. Koncz….and Shane.
When I sat down (in what turned out to be the best seat of my life) it was next to Cotto and Juanma. In front of us…posing like a champ for all to greet….was Shane.
What struck me then was (a) he was the biggest boxing star in attendance NOT represented by Top Rank and (b) there were no others of his stature anywhere nearby.
At the post fight conference, the first name that Arum mentioned was Shane’s.
Go figure.
The reasons that Arum might mention Shane have little to do with--
Oh, I don’t know—the delusion I have that I think boxing is supposed to be about, or used to be about.
by Don From Prov on Nov 19, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Sooner or later someone is going to ask why and how you were aguest of Top Rank, but for now, I'll
just stew in my pot of jelaousy
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Networking, Ted....and focusing like a laser.
Turns out we have a lot in common.
They own great boxer’s contracts.
I love great boxing.
Amazing, Freddie Roach wants a Mosley fight now!?!?!?!
He should’ve taken Mosley on his offer 2 years ago after the Magarito slaying.
Oh yeah, at that particular time " Mosley was too dangerous", as Freddie Roach would like to say.
Where are you seeing Freddie Roach mentioned?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
Well I look at it like Freddie Roach and Bob Arum are one when it comes to Pacqauio.
But in my opinoin, Shane Mosley shouldn’t even be mentioned as a opponent for Manny. For many reasons. For one, if Mayweather caught some flack for beating an aged Mosley, why should Pacquio fight him 2 fights and a year later? Second, that would be the 3rd fighter that he fought after Mayweather already demolished them. Third, after Mosley’s last outing, how can you take him serious. Make Mosley earn the fight by making him stop being stubborn about the 60/40 split with Berto and beating him.
Mosley isn’t another Roy Jones yet, but he’s getting there.
by The Floorer on Nov 18, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
Second, that would be the 3rd fighter that he fought after Mayweather already demolished them.
Since when did Mayweather “demolish” Oscar de la Hoya?
after Mosley’s last outing, how can you take him serious
Just playing devil’s advocate here, but we said the same after the crummy Mayorga fight, then he beat the piss out of Antonio Margarito, because Mosley’s much better at 147 than at 154. I think Pac-Mosley is junk, we agree there (and that’s the important thing), just saying.
Make Mosley earn the fight by making him stop being stubborn about the 60/40 split with Berto and beating him.
There is nothing Mosley can do to make a Pacquiao fight undeserving of criticism short of rematching Mayweather and beating Floyd. If he beats Berto, people are just going to say Berto isn’t any good. There’s no getting around Pacquiao-Mosley being a bad fight for 2011, and Mosley can’t “earn it” by beating Andre Berto. It would be no less criticized than it’s going to be if they announce it in a week.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
also there's no reason Mosley should stop being stubborn about a 60/40 split
Berto can’t draw 1,000 fans in his home state. 60/40 is arguably Mosley being nice.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
So you dont think that if Mosley fought Berto( who is undefeated ) I know, I know, who has he fought? But still, he’s an up and coming undefeated fighter similar to Bradley and Alexander. I mean, they’re resume isn’t exactly booming with Hall Of Famers, however plenty of people still believe that those two would be a good challenge for Pacquaio. If Mosley took the fight with Berto and the fight went the distance or close to the distance and Mosley looks rejuvenated and dominates him or even better stops him, I think you have to give him his props and then a Pacquaio fight might not seem to be that much of a farce.
But if Mosley wants to jump from a Mayweather domination to a Mora catfight, to a fight with Pacquaio, he’s definetly lost his mind.
by The Floorer on Nov 18, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
His mind might be the only thing still there. Money, money, money. Manny’s got a lot of it to spread around.
Trust me, people will just say Berto sucks if he loses to shot Mosley, and Mosley gets no less shot or prepared for Pacquiao because of it.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 18, 2010 11:41 PM EST up reply actions
Like the song
That would be the 3rd fighter that he fought after Mayweather already demolished them.
Anything you can do, I can do better ;-)
by manosdepiedra on Nov 19, 2010 4:21 AM EST up reply actions
None of these guys make the cut yet! Especially Mosley. Maybe Berto does though.
Come on guys Mosley will stand there in front of him the entire fight before getting beat down. He looked just awful against Mayweather and Manny will make him look even older. We need new blood in the sport out of these three I would choose Berto but even these three choices are bad ones. Hopkins is an idiot for making that remark.
He who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life.
Muhammad Ali
BHop loves throwing down that race card. As for not fighting a top black fighter….the biggest one out there is ducking him. Pacman will obliterate Shane who looks a half step slower each of his last few fights.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Nov 19, 2010 1:11 AM EST reply actions
Roach has said publicly they wouldn't mind Williams at 147
Williams and his promoter tell the media every chance that they get that Paul is a 147 fighter and can make the weight easily. That’s THE #1 reason Paul insisted on the 157 (or is it 158?) catchweight to fight Sexy Sergio, to send a message that yes, he can make the lower weights, and he’s not really a middleweight.
Even at 147, Paul would still rehydrate to 160+ on fight night like he always did at welterweight, while Pac would be at 148 fight night.
But Pac was able to win just about every round against Marg at 150, so Paul at 147 (160+ fight night) should make for a far more competitive fight.
If not that, then Bradley at 147. Bradley should have no problem fighting Pac at 147 since they will both weigh the same on fight night anyway (about 148-149). Neither guy will have to struggle to make weight.
Mosley? ugh. Please don’t let this be next.
Floyd who?
That’s THE #1 reason Paul insisted on the 157 (or is it 158?) catchweight to fight Sexy Sergio, to send a message that yes, he can make the lower weights, and he’s not really a middleweight.
It’s 157, but I don’t think that’s it. It’s just he knows for a fact he can make 157 comfortably (he was about 152 against Cintron) and maybe in his mid-30s and having moved up the last couple of fights, Martinez could have a slight problem cutting the last couple pounds. Probably not, but I suspect that was probably a key factor. Most likely it hurts neither of them, but it definitely won’t bother Paul.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 19, 2010 5:57 AM EST up reply actions
That
is the big point, the fricking bear in the room, the reality: None of these ww greats have wanted any taste of Williams.
Period.
by Don From Prov on Nov 19, 2010 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Paul Williams or Martinez vs Pacman at 147 would be good!
If either one of these fighters can get down to 147 or 148 since Roach loves these catch weights I would dish out the $54.99. Mosley would be a waste of time.
He who is not courageous enough to take risks will accomplish nothing in life.
Muhammad Ali
No way in hell Martinez can make 147
Williams says he can do it. He claims he walks around at 155 and has to put on weight to get to 160.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Martinez
has not fought at 147lbs in 9 years!
At 35 yoa there’s about as much chance of me making 147 and fighting Pac as there is “Maravilla”.
Please, not Mosley. If Floyd isn’t willing then it has to be the winner of PW/Martinez. I picked Berto, for lack of anything better to choose. Pac annihilates Berto, Bradley, Alexander, and Mosely.
And Cotto, and Margarito, and Clottey, and Alvarez, and Jones, and Khan.........
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
We don't know that for sure.
Pac annihilates Berto, Bradley, Alexander
Pacquiao hasn’t really been tested against a fighter with competitive speed or slickness since the rematch with Marquez, which was a long time ago.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Not really
Marquez’s speed was not anything like comparable to Pacquiao’s.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Nov 19, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
I know.
But since that fight Pacquiao hasn’t been tested and matched very carefully.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Are you disagreeing that Marquez was Pacquiao's last serious test?
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
And by matched very carefully...
I mean style wise. David Diaz, Oscar De La Hoya, Ricky Hatton, Miguel Cotto, Joshua Clottey and Antonio Margarito are hardly my idea of counter-punch artists.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
They aren't particularly known as "Boxers" either
Dela Hoya, maybe 2 years before Pacquaio fought him. And maybe at his correct weight, the weight he’s been fighting at for the past 9 years.
Agree.
De La Hoya is the only guy that can be classified as a boxer. Sort of.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Miguel Cotto isn't a boxer?
I must be following the wrong sport.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Haha.
You know what I meant!
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
I'll be honest, Dafs... I'm not sure I do know what you mean.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Beat me to the punch Chaos
Cotto is more of a boxer than he is a brawler . He has a great jab .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
You know what’s weird? Of those six guys, all but Diaz and maybe Margarito were dealing with trainer issues. Oscar and Nacho Beristain were working together for the first time and clearly did not click at all. Floyd Sr. and Hatton had a tumultuous camp. Cotto was basically training himself and on fight night Santiago had nothing for him. Clottey’s trainer couldn’t get into the States. Margarito was working with Robert Garcia for the second time ever.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 19, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
It’s very weird, because coming up against the world’s best trainer you have to have a settled camp and a good relationship with your trainer. Nearly every Pacquiao opponent has been involved in fracas and scandals with their trainers like you mentioned, or just getting used to the new surroundings. Except for David Diaz, a fighter that gives tremendously limited a new meaning and it would make no difference if he had a trainer or not against Manny.
I’m not hating on Pacquiao, I’m just pointing out that he hasn’t really faced a threat since Marquez. He’s been comfortable with all his opponents and just dossed around in every fight. Hell, he’s only lost 3 rounds in his last 6 fights. We don’t know how the newer version of Pacquiao matches up against a boxer, because we haven’t seen him deal with a guy that doesn’t suffer from Rocky Juarez syndrome for three years and has above average hand speed. Mosley ticks all the boxes that I’ve mentioned. Why not make it a 144 pound catchweight while they’re at it?
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Ab-so-bloody-lutely
Because a man takes on and beats (decisively or not) four of the highest active rated fighters in his a division…….which in Manny’s case is a TWO divisions higher than where he met Marquez….does Not for one minute suggest that any of them were no serious tests.
He tested 140 lbs against the undefeated (at Jr Welterweight) champion, Ricky Hatton.
He beat Joshua Clottey who gave Corrrales a beating at a lower weight….and Cotto a run for his money in a NYC hometwon crowd.
He beat the crap out of the all-but-one-fight dangerous and maximally prepared Antonio Margarito.
And he went Up TWO full divisions to finish ….beyond every prognasticators expectations——the once glorious career of ODLH.
There is no one who has done anything remotely close in testing themselves. No one.
Full Bloody Stop.
Your missing my point.
I’m not questioning the quality of opponents he’s faced (although the ODLH and Cotto fights were a farce), it’s just that Pacquiao is taking a very well-planned route that takes him around someone that will give him trouble, which is expected. A test for Pacquiao would be someone that moves a little, and someone who can play a little ‘D’. Since Marquez, Pacquiao’s faced a long-line of fighters that are tailormade for him, especially Clottey and Margarito who turned up to be human vending machines for the night. Pacquiao may not have been able to bust them up, but I’ve yet to meet a vending machine that could win a decision in a big boxing match.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Why was the De La Hoya - Pac fight a farce?
Oscar was 3 to 1 on favourite as I’ve typed many times before . Most so called good judges were saying Oscar would be too big for Pacquiao . Why was the Cotto fight a farce? The catchweight was annoying but it was 1 , yes , one pound . Cotto weighed 146 v Margarito and 145 v Cotto . He fought most of his career at 140 pounds not 147 .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Why was the Hatton fight a farce?
It was at 140 pounds , a weight Hatton had NEVER lost at .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
After timers
Love to pick faults with fights after they have been determined.
De La Hoya was the BIG favourite (NO ONE was picking Pac)
Hatton was undefeated at 140 (as JC said)
Cotto is a likely HOF and a bigger man than Pac who could well have been the victim of loaded gloves vs Margo.
Margo is a conc\rete chinned machine.
Clottey is a well known avoided,solid welterweight.
Please don’t try to undermine Manny accomplishments when stating your case,Dafodil.
All these fighters are bigger than Manny.
The Hatton fight wasn't a farce.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Who on that list is top 5?
Clottey? No. Margarito looked like shit in his previous fight. Dela Hoya, well we know that story. Cotto, Punch drunk. Ricky Hatton? KO’d. David Diaz, journeyman.
Marquez= Hall Of Famer. The one guy that gave him serious trouble.
See where I’m going?
I’m not hating either, I’m just pointing out the facts.
Clottey. Cotto. Hatton. All top five. At that time.
Everything else is revisionist.
Clottey BTW beat and badly hurt Diego Corrales, Floyd’s greatest victim, and once feared lighweight. A lighweight who despite his power could nver climb the weight ladder. Arguably, Clottey ended his career.
Clottey was and is a tough out for anyone but the best. He stood in the top five with Margarito and Cotto when FM took his first ‘leave of absence’
Yes, Manny has been tested. To doubt that is just plain revisionism or hating….or worse, silly.
1) Clottey has NEVER been a winner. I don’t care what he did to Diego Corrales after Mayweather exposed him. And by the way, didn’t Joel Casamayor beat Corrales twice, once by KO BEFORE Clottey got to him? I believe so.
2) Cotto was beaten with bricks before Pacquaio fought him.
3) Hatton was just KO’d by Mayweather before Pacquiao fought him.
None of these guys are top five canidates after what they’ve just recently been through.
by The Floorer on Nov 20, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
Clottey was a universal top five welterweight. So was Cotto. If they weren’t, please name your top five welterweights from the day before those fights and try not to include them. Who did you have up there, Jan Zaveck and Selcuk Aydin? Hatton was the reigning lineal champion at 140 pounds. You’re incredibly wrong about this. No offense.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 20, 2010 1:26 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah the point I was trying to make was, were these guys top 5 quality fighters? Officially they probaly are or were. But were they top 5 because they were so good, or because the surrounding competition was so bad?
But all in all, Pacquaio didn’t go in there and have some mediocre fight with any of them, he destroyed them. So I give him his props.
by The Floorer on Nov 20, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
If they are top 5, then they are 'top 5 quality'
End.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
When Marvin Hagler beat Tommy Hearns, everyone marveled
But Tommy was already beaten by SRL. Did that make MMH win less impressive.
When Hearns whacked Duran, he was given every drop of deserved credit even though Ray did it first.
This whole “he lost so he’s damaged goods” thing is BS. How it became a measuring stick for Manny or Floyd I don’t know. But it stinks. All great boxers who push themselves lose sooner or later.
And most great boxers have plenty of great fights left in them after they sustain their loses.
You can have your opinion on this
But the facts of the matter are that (a) Hatton was THE CHAMPION of the world at light welterweight, (b) Clottey was (and still is) a top 5 welterweight, and © Cotto was ranked top 10 pound for pound.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Mayweathers record
At 130 – Floyd manages to avoid Casamayor and Freitas while fighting Corrales who was already facing criminal charges about his wife . Corrales has NO technical boxing ability( see his title winning fight against Roberto Garcia . Garcia punched lumps of Diego early using a stick n move style .) At 135 Mayweather wins an extremely lucky decision against Castillo , beats him in the rematch . Hardly the resume of a great at 135 . At 140 Floyd wins the 140 pound WBC title beating the 39 – 6 Arturo Gatti . I remember De La Hoya being CRUCIFIED for fighting Gatti a full 4 years earlier . For some reason Mayweather was praised for fighting Gatti . WTF ? Then we have Floyd’s 147 pound "resume " . Shamba Mitchell LMAO a natural 135 pounder who has NEVER beaten a world class fighter . Then Floyd is gifted a paper title against Zab Judah who had lost his previous fight to Baldomir . Then Floyd wins the WBC 147 title against Carlos Baldomir . LMAO . Not exactly a great fighter . Floyd then has a split decision against the near shot Oscar who two , yes , two fights previously had been counted out against Hopkins . Floyd then beats Hatton , a nice win but Ricky Hatton had no real world beating form at 147 pounds . Floyd then fights JM Marquez who had fought his previous fight at 134 pounds and had fought Pac at 130 pounds at 147 and cheats at the weight in . Then Floyd faces the 38 year old Mosely . Floyds record is WORSE than Mannys . Manny fought Cotto and Margarito , blokes Floyd ducked . Cheers All.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
In reality
Both Pac and Mayweather’s management have been very cunning in their matchmaking but all up Manny has a MUCH better resume than Floyd jr .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
This I can agree with
Neither man has taken all comers, but Pacquiao’s been a lot closer to doing so.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Honestly, I’m surprised 617 people in this poll want to see Pac/Mosley. If this had been before the Sergio Mora fight, I could kinda understand it. But after seeing how he looked against Floyd and then seeing that crapper Mora fight, why would you want to see Shane Mosley get beat up by Pac?
I’m not even kidding when I say that I fear for Mosley’s health if that fight were to be made.
http://www.firesteveaddazio.com
Fire Steve Addazio.
People said the same before the Margarito fight...
Just saying….
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Beause SSM has never been stopped and maybe they want to see if Pac can do the job,
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
its the style matchup.. Mosley will trade and he is quick too. IMO, if he doesnt get anything solid on Pacquiao in the first three rounds.. he is gonna get whooped.
Also, Mosley’s name was brought up before to fight Pacquiao.. well he wanted to fight Pacquiao but Roach did say `your just too good` I think people are still stuck on the `old` Mosley as opposed to the `current` Mosley
I guess it might be a mixture of “can he resurrect again?”, like Chaos says, and people being stuck on the “prime” Mosley. But it seems to me that Shane Mosley aged enormously between the Margarito and the Mayweather fights… He himself hinted that he had been unable to pull the trigger against Mayweather. He said something to the effect that his trainer had told him everything he needed to do but he really couldn’t do it. And it seemed to me, he couldn’t really do anything against Mora either… even if Mora is incredibly awkward, I think that a prime Mosley would’ve wiped the floor with him.
As for seeing if Pac can stop Shane, well I don’t know… that seemed fine for an up an comer like Saul Alvarez, but it really gives me no curiosity whatsoever to see if arguably the best P4P fighter right now can drop an old Mosley… especially when a prime Mosley would’ve probably made a good fight.
http://www.firesteveaddazio.com
Fire Steve Addazio.
At the end of the day, I'd but a PPV to see Pac fight a kangeroo.
Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Basically that’s what it has come to.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Nov 19, 2010 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
To get it out of the way… noone should be fighting Pacquiao except for Mayweather.
All this `black fighter` crap is stupid anyways. So the list of possible opponents: Mosley, Berto, Alexander. Bradley
Mosley – the best choice because it makes the most business sense. On the other hand, he has looked like garbage in his last two outtings and his stamnia looks terrible – Pacquiao wipes the floor with Mosley but Mosley always has that punchers chance. Fightin Mosley also has its positives and negatives.. the positive is that it gives Pacquiao another common opponent of Mayweathers for people to compare how each took on the challenge. The drawback would be PPV – if Pacquiao doesnt draw equal or more, bet on purse split to be brought up by Team Mayweather.
Berto – he is good but cant draw. Also, he hasnt been tested by a top WW
Alexander/Bradley – these guys cant draw either and they would need to come up in weight [or not] I am assuming Team Pacquiao will have 147lb limit but Pacquiao stil would come in around 145ish – dont know what Alexander/Bradley would do…
No matter who he fights, there will be an excuse as to why Pacquiao fights and beats them – the only question this puts to rest is the whole black fighter style garbage.
Alexander actually draws well at home
I’d guess he’s one of the top 10 American draws right now. The problem is that he only draws in St. Louis.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
As long as Mosley doesn't get a shot......
He needs to be fighting Berto.
They were supposed to fight early this year anyway right? Why not take care of that unfinished buisiness first?
I voted for Bradley/Aleaxander
but seen as Freddie says Pac won’t come below welterweight and i don’t want to see him fight either of those two 140lbers at that weight,i would instead say Berto now,if there’s no chance of 140 for Pac.
Saying that
Pac is a very small welter anyway so maybe it wouldn’t matter that much re a Bradley/Alexander fight.
The weight would probably suit them just as well if not better than Pac.
I’d be happy with either of the bottom two options but i’m less interested in Mosley now.
Retire.
Or have a farewell shootout at home with Saul Alvarez.
Or—-
Did I mention WILLIAMS (caps for your drunken cutman: he gets a hoot out of it)
Black, White or Green
They’ll bleed red when Pac hammers your face over and over again
In all honesty
I believe that a Pacquaio- Williams match will benefit Pacquio the most. Pacquaio will come into the ring hydrated. Williams probaly walks around close to 170lb. I dont care how much height and reach Williams has. After draining himself that much, he wont have ANYTHING on his punches come fight night weighing 147.
And this is where I agree with Mayweather 100%.
It’s alright for Pacquaio and Marquez to fight, but it’s not alright for Mayweather and Marquez to fight. It’s alright for Mayweather and P. Williams to fight, but it’s not okay for Pacquaio and P. Williams to fight……… I mean, isn’t Pacquaio a welterweight right now? If Paul Williams is able to make 147 then he should be on Pacquaio’s list to fight. Especially if the same people are going to say that Mayweather should fight Williams.
Mayweather fought Pacquaio’s toughest opponent, Marquez, at an unfair weight and made him look silly. And Pacquaio fought Mayweather’s toughest opponent, Dela Hoya, at an unfair weight and made him look silly.
So they are both even. They should be able to fight any guy that the other guy is able to fight.
So I dont want to hear about P. Williams height. If he can make 147, lets fight.
So I dont want to hear about P. Williams height.
Team Pacquiao chose to avoid Yuri Foreman because he was too tall. Tall Paul will have to fight on his knees or something, and he would probably still tower over Manny and Floyd.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Have you ever heard of match making designed to test a fighter at progressivel;y greater challenges
Any advisor of Manny….or any other fighter….that would have thrown him into bttle with ODLH, Hatton, Cotto, Clottey and Margarito would have be remiss…if not out of their minds to simply match their lighweight against these men without progressively seeing how he fared first against the first opponent.
When he beat Oscar, Freddie knew Oscar well enough to know that he could not keep up with Manny’s speed. Screw the weight. He knew Oscar couldn’t keep up…in Round One. Eight rounds later…and Oscar quit saying the same.
Next he fought Hatton. Most said Hatton was too big and too strong even after he was beaten once (at a weight where he was never comfortable in the ring).
Boom. Two rounds of NOT seeing punches and down goes the best Junior lightweight in the world.
So time to bring on both Cotto and Clottey. Manny sat ringside scouting the fight between these two He saw Clottey rough Miguel up and saw how to exploit both men. But who did he choose first? the winner, Cotto.
And he kicked the still top welter’s bigger ass all over the ring.
And then he take on his stablemate, the even bigger Clottey. And forces him to clam up instead of opening up.
After that Margarito. Biggger than the rest. Badder than both Clottey and Cotto. Beaten badly but once but hell bent on redemption, Manny puches hiom like a pinata that doesn’t crack…and sends his to the hospital with a broken orbital and hutout loss to nurse.
Get the picture. Fighting bigger and better all along. And still looking for challenges.
Pakin, I hear you.....
But my post above was a totally different topic. I’m talking about why are people, not all but some saying that Paul Williams is too tall for Pacqauio even if he can make the weight.
I mean, should we start measuring guys and pairing them to fight based on height now?
Does being shorter give you an excuse to either not fight, or after you lose say: he was too tall.
Well, if that’s the case, Heavy Weight or not, Mike Tyson should’ve ducked Lennox Lewis or David Tua should’ve told Lewis: Too tall man. The Klitschos should never get a fight if that’s the case. But these guys still fought, and by it being the Heavy weight division it’s unlimited weight, so that’s even worse. Lewis was taller than Tyson and out weighed him by 30lbs, same with Tua. However with this case Pacquaio vs Williams, Welterweights, Williams will have the height advantage but Pacquaio will have the benefit of making Williams come down to HIS weight 147. Imagine if Tyson or Tua could’ve had that advantage or the Klitscho Bro opponents. Shit, I’d fight Lennox Lewis at 147lbs. I don’t care if he’s Lennox Lewis or not, if he has too drop down and fight me at my weight I feel I have the advantage.
If that opportunity opens itself up, Pacquaio should take it.
by The Floorer on Nov 20, 2010 12:39 AM EST up reply actions
I may have misunderstood you Floorer.
I try to read in cars on an Iphone and respond out of context sometimes.
Pardon the rant.
I have no issue with Manny fighting PW. I think he’d beat him inside and up and down. However, Paul is a gangly freak of nature when he’s fighting light near welter. No Tommy Hearns but a long tall inaccurate punching machine.
Manny and Freddie could probably beat him but after fighting up…literally throwing punches above his head…against Margarito, he may want to take on a guy closer to his size next time.
First of all, no one fights a better and better fighter every time…without a break. History is replete with greats giving themselves a breather between major contenders. If he fights someone of the highest caliber…and it’s not PW, Id like to see Bradley or Alexander. It just looks right to me.
Word is Freddie wants Bernard….and thinks Manny would beat him.
I'll have a very very big bet on Lennox.... :)
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Sounds like Operation Klitschko 2012 to me.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
On the other hand
Margarito is the same height as Foreman.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Mark Breland-Pacquiao would have been an even bigger height discrepancy.
What does it take get a thumb and some green background around here? I’m felling somehow…inadaquate.
by FrankinDallas on Nov 19, 2010 10:18 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Haha!!
Frank, rest assured mate, no-one is more green thumb worthy than yourself!
Breland-Pacman? Bloody hell.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Bradley-Alexander
New blood. If 140 is too low for Manny they can come up to 144.
But I’m with Prov on Alvarez.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Wake me up when Pacquiao decides to stop playing around and give JMM the rematch that the deserves. All this talk about how invincible he is and how he’s always seeking a challenge, rings hollow when he keeps ducking the guy whose schooled him twice even after he’s supposedly washed up. Step up Manny and stop wasting time beating guys who are shot and don’t belong in the ring with you, it’s starting to become a joke how badly you’re ducking your only real challenge at this point.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
Pacquiao-Mosely=Awful
Nor will I spend $60. on it, knowing I can get to see Pacman work for free the next week, with no diminution in suspense. Not because anybody’s a bad guy, but because $60 is $60, and it’s even worth it if it’s the only way to see MP work, but ti’s not. It could be shorter than Ali-Liston II, that’s a dollar a second for a foregone conclusion=next week on replay.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
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