Manny Pacquiao-Shane Mosley Done for May 7
by Scott Christ on Dec 21, 2010 10:12 PM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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Dan Rafael of ESPN.com reports tonight that a May 7 fight has been agreed to between Manny Paccquiao and Shane Mosley. The fight will be held at the MGM Grand in Las Vegas.
Pacquiao (52-3-2, 38 KO) and Mosley (46-6-1, 39 KO) are at very different points in their respective Hall of Fame-bound careers right now. The 32-year-old Pacquiao is coming off of a pair of dominant wins in 2010, beating Joshua Clottey and Antonio Margarito, with both fights taking place at Cowboys Stadium in Texas. Mosley, however, turns 40 next September and went 0-1-1 in 2010, losing a wide decision to Floyd Mayweather Jr. in May and winding up with a controversial draw against Sergio Mora, with the story of the fight not so much the scoring, but the fact that neither fighter looked good in a miserably dull 12-round affair.
It will be a return to the 147-pound ranks for Mosley, who fought Mora at 154. Bob Arum says in the Rafael article that "Mosley knows how to deal with speed," but this is debatable at the very least. He fought a fast fighter in Mayweather and couldn't even come close to keeping up after the second round. In fact, the last time Mosley beat what you might consider a "fast" fighter, it was Oscar de la Hoya in 2003.
The fight is sure to draw criticism, and rightly so. Mosley is old and looked worn out this year. While it's worth asking who else was really available, I would point to Andre Berto, though with the admission that Berto is nowhere near Mosley's star level. Our friend Corey Erdman spoke with Lou DiBella, Berto's promoter, and Lou said, "It was never a true sweepstakes. [Pacquiao-Mosley] is not a surprise. Smart business, but maybe not good for boxing."
DiBella also addressed the idea that Berto might have priced himself out. "Arum said publicly and privately that my ask for Berto was reasonable."
While I am not a fan of this fight on paper, I like both guys, so I'm sure I'll be able to talk myself into believing Mosley has a shot in the fight week. I really don't think he has a shot, though. It's not even just that Shane isn't what he used to be; it's that Manny Pacquiao is too good for him anymore. Sadly, I can see the reality that with Berto not being a star and Floyd Mayweather Jr. being a public trainwreck at the current time, the other option might have been Pacquiao not fighting at all.
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Keep spoon feeding those opponents, Bob.
Marquez deserves this fight, too bad you can cut the tension with a knife between GBP and Top Rank.
Lame.
by TooLegitToQuit on Dec 21, 2010 10:18 PM EST via mobile reply actions
yeah pretty much
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 21, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
yeah pretty much
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 21, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
yeah pretty much
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 21, 2010 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
Disappointing
Especially since it seemed like JMM had a real chance at landing the fight for a minute there.
But also hope-inspiring, in that a draw with a fighter like Sergio Fucking Mora gets you a huge payday and a shot at the best fighter going. I think that means there’s hope for all of us to achieve anything.
And yes, I know it was a bullshit draw. But still.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 21, 2010 11:34 PM EST reply actions
yeah pretty much
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 21, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
juanma can wait a few months for his beating.
Shane can’t. Plus the internal metrics used to determine the marketability of this fight with SSM was that Manny already has the Mexican audience, with or without Marquez. Add to that Marquez not exactly being an absolute favorite among his natural audience…and the fact that he looked like utter shit at welterweight…and you can’t argue the business side of this decision.
Top Rank is banking on SSM having some drawing power left among the urban base. They may be right or they may be wrong, but in the end both Shane and JuanMa will get their retirement paydays fighting Manny.
Mexican Audience
Shane can’t. Plus the internal metrics used to determine the marketability of this fight with SSM was that Manny already has the Mexican audience, with or without Marquez.
He has the Mexican audience when he fights Mexicans.
by erod on Dec 22, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Bob?
Is that you?
Or is this Todd?
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 22, 2010 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Via Iole:
In his last five fights, Pacquiao has sold 1.25 million against De La Hoya, 800,000 against Ricky Hatton, 1.2 million against Miguel Cotto, 700,000 against Joshua Clottey and 1.15 million against Margarito.
I don’t know how you can argue the Mexican fans follow him regardless when against ODLH and Margarito he does 1.25 and 1.15 and against a Brit and a Ghanaian he does 800K and 700K respectively.
Seems like some of the Mexican fans only turn up when he’s fighting a Mexican, or at least a Mexican-American.
So what other motivation could there be? Worried Dinamito might beat him and take the money train off the tracks? I would say so.
And that’s fine. But when you’re giving boxing fans less than the best possible fight to protect your financial interests, just be honest. Otherwise it insults our intelligence. Piss down my back/tell me it’s raining, etc.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 22, 2010 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Nobody is worried about Marquez. Not Arum. Nor Roach.
Nor do many serious fans think that he has the slightest chance of getting anything but a beating fighting the version of Pacquiao that has emerged in the past two years.
To say other wise is ….well, like pissing down our backs.
BTW, I have written extensively on this today so if you want to parse my words, do me a favor, include the rest of my statement.
I’ll repeat it . The internal metrics determined after Margarito was that if Manny fought SSM, he would get the Mexican fans…..plus some additional fans from an urban base. Iole can crunch his numbers but the people putting on the fight believe there is more to be gained fighting a…yes, I’ll say it…and black American fighter with some additional urban base.
Yeah pretty much?
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on Dec 21, 2010 11:34 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Also:
Under the terms of his deal with Golden Boy (Mosley) will have to sell back his 4 percent stake in the company for $1,000, although they could wind up in court.
That’s exactly the kind of business acumen I’ve come to expect from aging and retired boxers. Shane is thinking short money versus long money. $5 mil and a percent of the PPV is a lot of money, but still finite. It runs out eventually, especially if you have a couple of ex-wives and a lavish lifestyle. A piece of a promotional company, especially one of the two biggest in the sport, can sustain you and provide for you long term if you live within your means.
I’m sure Oscar will be glad to have that 4% back for a measly $1G. Dumb resource management by Shane. Looking forward to him retiring then coming back in 2020 because he needs the money.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 21, 2010 11:41 PM EST reply actions
In possibly not completely unrelated news:
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 21, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, I missed the actual documents. So we do have bona fide knowledge.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 21, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions
I am definitely not claiming to have any bona fide knowledge of Sugar Shane’s finances, but dude got hit really hard in his divorce, it’s said. He might need the windfall, and boxing is also short-term memory sport. In two years he could be right back working for Golden Boy with mended fences and “Shane did what he had to do but we’re thrilled to have him back in the Golden Boy family.”
That said, yes, I agree, because I’d be a damnfool to not.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 21, 2010 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, he could definitely be fighting for them again in the future.
Like you say, short memories in boxing, especially when there’s money to be made.
But I think the ownership stake is out the door. I think Oscar offered that to Shane and BHop at the start to get them in the tent when he was trying to build the brand. Now GB is big enough where Oscar doesn’t have to give out pieces of the pie to get guys working with him anymore. Guys like Canelo and Ortiz, no matter how much upside they have, don’t get an actual ownership percentage of GB. Hell, even Floyd doesn’t get a piece of GB. They just partner with his “promotional company” on those fights.
Shane could very well work for Oscar, Richard, and GB again, but he will never ever work with them as an equal again.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 22, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
That assumes Golden Boys viability.
Having a minority position in a privately owned company that some think has problems isn’t the same as money in the bank.
I will go ahead and assume the viability of the biggest promoter in the sport.
What problems is it you think Golden Boy has?
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 22, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
Aging stable. Aging contracts. Few new prospects. The list is long.
Golden Boy has not been able to get JMM the fight he wants. Nor Shane.
Lastly, they are totally dependent on a huge but single contact with HBO.
You never want your business to be solely dependent on one patron.
Aging stable. Aging contracts. Few new prospects.
Canelo, Kirkland, Mares, Khan. Off the top of my head. Bare cupboard for sure.
Golden Boy has not been able to get JMM the fight he wants.
They literally offered JMM Khan or Katsidis, and he chose Katsidis. So, in an extremely literal and obvious manner, they did give him the fight he wanted.
Nor Shane.
Got Shane the fight against Margarito and the fight against Mayweather, the latter of which he campaigned for for months, so he presumably wanted it.
Didn’t get him the Pac fight because he wasn’t the most-deserving fighter in their stable who wanted it.
Lastly, they are totally dependent on a huge but single contact with HBO.
That’s weird because BHop was on Showtime last weekend.
Am I on camera? Is somebody pulling my leg with this guy?
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 22, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
JMM wants Pacquiao.
Oscar can’t get that.
Shane left his own promotional company to get it.
Don’t be surprised if Juanma follows.
Floyd never got Gb to negotiate a fight with Manny successfully.
Hence Don Kings reemergence.
Bernard, Juanma and Shane have been the backbone of the business these past years.
I have owned and operated a talent agency for thirty years.
If I were merging, I would be wary of GB.
There are some positives…but they have some serious liabilities.
Well,
if a thirty-year talent agency operator wouldn’t merge with them I frankly don’t know how they’ll even keep the doors open through the end of the month.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 22, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Funny. Not.
I would look for an alliance with the better company if possible.
But you seem on your muscle today, so I’ll let you figure out who that might be.
With all due respect
you realise that the abbreviation ‘Juanma’ is almost exclusively believed to refer to Juan Manuel Lopez, right?
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I was getting genuinely confused when you were referring to a future fight between Juanma and Pacquaio
but then, I was drunk again last night. :D
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
They've supposedly entered into some bad business deals that have nothing to do with boxing
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I've heard that as well.
Where there is smoke there is often fire.
GB’s problems may not be in any way fatal but their honeymoon period is definitely over.
Don’t even get me started on Oscar as promoter.
He may even have an award named for him on the other post
Right now, Schaefer could be considered to be the lead faceof GBP
in the same way as Arum is for Top Rank,
Or, I could be wrong.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Schaefer is a smart guy who was most recently a Swiss bank executive
How much he knows…..or has learned…about boxing is another story.
I assume quite a bit but in no way comparable to Arum.
Links?
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 22, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions
Ugghhh. Such a waste. Is bad boxing better than no boxing?
"Mug an old lady, and if you have the right connections the WBO will rank you seventh." -Steve Farhood
Would you prefer
He try to follow in the footsteps of Mayweather and see if WWE is interested in bringing him in for a boxer-vs-wrestler match at Wrestlemania?
If Pacquiao is going to fight an obviously inferior opponent, I would prefer that his opponent be one where the consensus is that a straight-up, lights-out KO is a much more likely ending than a unanimous decision.
yes
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 9:00 AM EST up reply actions
Ugghhh. Such a waste. Is bad boxing better than no boxing?
Absolutely.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 22, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
I think so too…most of the time…I would rather watch a crappy fight than nothing. Tuning in week after week for some of the ESPN Friday night fights are proof of that, plus some of the crap PPVs I’ve plunked down for. But after a while I feel cheated, we enable the promoters to put together crap fights cause they know we’ll pay for it anyway.
"Mug an old lady, and if you have the right connections the WBO will rank you seventh." -Steve Farhood
by BloodMeridian on Dec 22, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
I would agree with that if the bad boxing were free… PPV bad boxing, for me, is NOT better than no boxing. I was watching free Saskatchewan boxing the other day and though the production value was pretty low, the fights were quite entertaining… and it was free, so i’d rather watch that than bad, predictable (and dangerous) PPV’s.
Fire Steve Addazio
I will not buy any PPV promoted by Bob Arum.
by Apprentice on Dec 22, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks Don!
Steve Addazio is gone! Thank you Temple!!!!
I will not buy any PPV promoted by Bob Arum.
I agree
I enjoy mining low-rent boxing shows for good free fights, and they’re there: The night before Par-Marg, I watched an 8 round Telefuturo fight held in Hidalgo, TX, wherein Omar Figuera (10—0-0-7) fought Arturo Quintero to a split decision draw—just a great little fight. Jake Donovan of BoxingScene wrote, “The biggest event of the year is still a day away in Arlington, TX, but it’s quite possible that another part of the Lone Star state has already produced the best fight of the weekend.” I think he and I were the only ones who saw it. It kills me I can’t even find video on it.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Yup and those are good little surprises we get. I wasn’t even expecting to see that card; I was just flipping channels and then bam! Boxing! Nice! And I started watching and was pretty entertained and paid nothing.
Steve Addazio is gone! Thank you Temple!!!!
I will not buy any PPV promoted by Bob Arum.
But this is prize fighting and it’s now pretty clear how to take your prize possession into the most money possible. Top rank obviously…and with some legit logic….figures ol’ SSM will bring the biggest return on their investment next. After that, JMM. If that be the case, Manny notches one after the other in big name fights and then clears his calander for either Floyd Mayweather or the next proven marketable name to come forward. It is hard to argue that Shane, JMM, Floyd (or Bradley/Alexander) in the next two years is anything less than fighting and beating the rest of the best. That some are old and some are new is just a fact. But fighting the new before the old would make Manny’s team soomething they are anything but; Stupid. With a few years left, they can get in line. Shane first. Juanma next. And so on and so on. All that remains now are the signatures and waiting to see if SSM can take heart from Bernard and give it his all. My take: Shane has too much wear and tear. Bernard does not. I am with Harold Letterman on this one. Manny by brutal KO.
Forget the economic implications and explanations.
Manny Pacquiao made tens of millions of dollars fighting Antonio Margarito. He made a lot of money fighting Josh Clottey. Oh, and a lot of money fighting Miguel Cotto. I could go on, but I think you get the picture. I’m not going to start blabbing on about fans being entitled to anything, because if we’re frankly stupid enough to pay to see Shane Mosley get his arse kicked, more fool us. But let’s get this straight. This fight deserves every tiny little shred of criticism it gets, because it is bullshit. It is absolute bullshit. Shane Mosley is an old man, who won’t be able to live with Manny Pacquiao in the ring. I couldn’t give half a shit if Manny Pacquiao and Top Rank make 5 million more dollars fighting Mosley than they do fighting Berto or Marquez. Because that’s what it essentially amounts to.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 4:53 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
At this level, who besides Floyd hasn't lost
Berto may not have a loss but his wins are not impressive
I think it was a Mayweather dig
“WHO? Shane Mosley with five losses? He’s not a pay-per-view ATTRACTION!” That was Mayweather’s ridiculous line before Floyd fought Juan Manuel Marquez (with four losses).
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 9:00 AM EST up reply actions
To be fair
He only really has 3.
Not that Mayweather isn’t just as absurd.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 22, 2010 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
My girlfriend and I have co-opted “He’s not a pay-per-view ATTRACTION clap clap clap” as a generalized, all-purpose diss and I can’t recommend it highly enough.t
by Tedd Welch on Dec 22, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah it was a mayweather ref
to clarify
by journeyintosound on Dec 22, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
I've done the same thing, actually
It’s great fun.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
I mean, when you do what Mosley just did to a guy like Sergio Mora
clearly, you deserve to fight the number one p4p fighter in the world. It’s only logical.
Most if not many matches are made exactly for reasons like that
If a fighter is too good, he often finds himself avoided. If he shows flaws and/or signs of slipping, he becomes a candidate. That is simply how it works.
Sorry what?
Since when do you not expect the leading figure in a SPORT to keep performing against the best? It happens in football, soccer, rugby, cricket, basketball, baseball, UFC and so on; why should we not expect the same in boxing?
And, quite frankly, how impressive are Manny’s last two wins? Clottey and Margarito were much bigger men, sure, but were they the highest calibre fighters at their respective weights? No, definitely not.
That is a meagre excuse for what is an awful fight.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 4:57 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sorry
but that is hardly a fair comparison.The ra-ra,poncy game of cricket is about as far removed from boxing as you can get.One involves hitting a ball with a bat and catching said ball while taking plenty of rest in between,the other involves being constantly punched in the face while looking to land plenty of your own.Soccer,same,no comparison.To compare an elite level boxer’s comp to that of a cricketer or football player is just ridiculous.You don’t get brain damage and /or demetia pugilistica playing cricket.
The only one of the sports you listed that can compare is MMA.They do in general fight harder fights more consistently but they also have shorter careers,shorter reigns as champs and unimpressive looking win/loss records,for the main part.
Manny has constantly taken big challenges since the SD with Marquez almost three years ago.It is easy to say afterwards,“oh,they were easy fights” but that’s only because he made them look easy.No one thought any of them would be easy fights going in.Manny was the underdog or even money in at least 2 of them.
I don’t like the Mosley fight at all but my point is that Manny has fought consistent challenge after challenge and took quite a lot of punishment against Cotto and Margarito,naturally bigger men.
Cotto was a Top 10 welter when Manny fought him,so was Clottey and some were picking MC to win.Margo was still a tough opponent all thing considered (like the fact that Pac is really a super featherweight.)
MP is that good he makes it look easy,as any quality craftsman does.
I’m not comparing boxing and cricket. Thanks for pointing out the differences though, really nice of you to do so. Wasn’t quite aware that you didn’t get punched in the face in cricket, but thanks! Sheesh.
I’m quite aware what the two sports involve. It’s a wholly artificial comparison, the whole point of which is simply to highlight the fact that, when it comes to sport, you EXPECT the best to face the best.
Also, I didn’t say that his recent fights weren’t challenges on paper. If you read what I’ve said elsewhere on the site, you’ll see that I pointed out that the fights he’s taken appeared to be tough; however, when it came to actually fighting them, they were easy. He didn’t take “quite a lot of punishment” against either Cotto or Margarito. The first three or four rounds against Cotto were tough going, but after that, it was into third gear. There were some competitive rounds with Margarito, but, for the large part, it was Manny beating up on the guy.
And please, if I hear another person say that “Pac is really a super featherweight” I don’t know what I’ll do. Clearly he isn’t really a super featherweight. The guy is awesome at welterweight. He might be pushing himself, but he’s miles better than everyone else. So what’s the point in bringing that up?
There is simply no defence for Manny fighting Mosley. Nobody needs to see it.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 8:07 AM EST up reply actions
You were
comparing them though.
Since when do you not expect the leading figure in a SPORT to keep performing against the best? It happens in football, soccer, rugby, cricket, basketball, baseball, UFC and so on; why should we not expect the same in boxing?
It was such a ludicrous statement that you made(in your typically arrogant yet really naive manner),implying that those sports are irrelevant to boxing,that i thought the obvious needed stating.
If you read it again (you must be getting tired of reading things again), you’ll see that I was making a comparison because I was talking about SPORT. Boxing is a sport. The comparison thus exists, no matter how different those sports may be.
And cheers for your entirely unnecessary stab, there. That’s cool. Be an arsehole.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 9:00 AM EST up reply actions
C'mon guys - no need for the personal attacks
No need for your parenthetical Matt, and no need for your last sentence Oli. But have boxing arguments all you want otherwise.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Again, I don’t need to have barbs aimed at me. Whatever.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
Who would you have Manny fight, Oli?
I think a thread (or two) was just run about this and the pickings are meager in many ways
I wanted a young gun, others wanted Bradley—
But none were pulse stopping. Here is a thing: I’d rather someone like Manny go on a barnstorming tour, without every fight having to be seen as a major “event,” and run through whoever is out there (if he can): Won’t happen.
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2010 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
I’d have Manny fight Berto, I think. He’s young, fresh, and we’ll only really find out how good he is when he steps in with someone like Manny. Past that, I’d be OK with Marquez going in there. He’ll never be a real welterweight, but he’d sure as hell give it a go, and I still like the romance of the trilogy. Of all the possible fights, I genuinely think Mosley stinks the worst. And by some distance, too.
I completely agree with your sentiments about a tour. Of course, as you say, it won’t happen – instead, we’ll be fed drivel about how this is a huge fight and Mosley is a legit contender, etc. etc.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions
First: Berto,
Next: Ortiz (“easy” fight)
Then: Winner of Bradley/Alexander
Finally: Alvarez. Retire. End of career. But would he even have the focus left to do it—
Plus, the wear and tear of his career must be adding up.
I think that he’s showing a bit of “not knowing when to leave the stageitis”
Shane, at this point, adds nothing to his resume—and what if the old guy slams his jaw?
Four fight barnstorm against younger competition and then stay home with his lovely wife.
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
Sounds okay with me – although I’d skip the Ortiz fight (sheesh, if there was ever a fighter who really didn’t deserve a big fight…) and one way or the other work Khan in there. They’re all better fights than Mosley, let’s be honest. And, quite frankly, I highly doubt Mosley catches Pacquiao’s jaw enough to get him out of there. These days, he’s just too tentative after getting hit, and the speed is pretty much gone.
Of course, in an ideal world, Floyd could pop up again – but it’s not an ideal world that we live in, eh!
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Khan, yes--
or maybe Angulo.
Floyd may have popped his last. Or he may pop past his, and the fight’s, due date.
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Just to clarify, because everything apparently needs to be spelt out for you in a really literal way. I am quite aware boxing and cricket are different. At no point did I suggest that what you do in boxing in any way correlates with what you do in cricket. What I did suggest, however, was that, as with any sport (be that cricket – YAY CRICKET RA-RA PONCY CRICKET) you can and should expect the best to face the best.
Is that okay with you? Or is that too ludicrous for you? Or should I duck for cover in case you call me arrogant? Or even naive?
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions
There is no sport nor are there many examples on boxing
Where every successive game in a season or in a career is spent pursuing better and better competition from one game or match to another. In a short playoff yes, but over the trajectory of a career no. The best teams have by weeks, easy spots on their schedules, sometimes easier schedules period. The best boxers in the modern era all fought gimmes at some time in their ascent.
The only boxer in this decade with a resume anything close to Pacquiao is Hopkins and fight fans have been moaning about half his choices. Even about him.
This is a prize fight. They will make money. Most hard core fans will watch Manny in an exhibition at this point. So will others. This fight does not preclude fighting Marquez who I believe is an easier mark at welterweight any day than Shane is tomorrow.
As I said before, no one at this elite level gets there without losing….except Floyd.
That includes Mosely, Marquez, Martinez or any other tried and true welterweight. Berto is not the latter.
With all due respect, I pretty steadfastly disagree. I appreciate your sentiments about the differences between boxing and other sports, but that debate could go on for ages. Whereas teams play for 9 months of the year, boxers maybe spend 16 weeks training and compete twice. The comparison is designed to be artificial – I only wanted to point out that you expect to see the best face the best in sports in general, I wasn’t looking to open a whole can of worms.
As for this fight, there is no merit in having Shane Mosley as an opponent. I’ve expressed my opinions to you on other threads. There was a degree of merit in fighting Antonio Margarito – despite the Mosley knockout and subsequent disgrace, he was a substantially bigger man etc. But Shane Mosley is an old, shot fighter who’s done nothing for nearly two years. He isn’t fast. He’s too tentative to hit Pacquiao. His stamina is shot to pieces. Berto isn’t the greatest fighter in the world, but he’s young, fresh and deserves a go. Heck, Marquez deserves a go far more than Mosley, even if he was knocked about by Mayweather, and even if he’s as much a welterweight as Manny Pacquiao is a light heavyweight. This match-up is simply inexcusable.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 9:35 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
he deserves a fight like this. can’t keep fighting at the weight he’s at and expect him to fight every high caliber fighter there is
Such a view is symptomatic of what is wrong with boxing, and the notion that fighters in some way deserve the odd “easier” fight, is in no way an acceptable or inevtiable part of the sport.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 22, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Nice to see there’s someone who agrees with me.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
I quite honestly disagree with you.
And DC.
Simple reason being, there isn’t ALWAYS a top level, peak fighter out there to fight.
Right now, Manny is in that boat. Floyd aside, there is simply no-one out there that makes REAL sense. And Floyd is simply unavailable, for other reasons.
Berto, Mosley, JMM, Bradley, Alexander, Cotto, Hatton, Khan, any of them simply seem like easy fights. Manny is simply too good for them right now, as is Floyd. I’m as gutted as the next man that Floyd/Manny will not happen (unless the next man is Bob Arum), but the fact remains, these two guys against anyone else is a mis-match. For every guy that says Mosley is too old, there is another saying Berto is too inexperienced.
Manny is too good to be fighting anyonee but Floyd, and vice versa. But since Manny is trying to stay active, and as much as I HATE the Mosley fight (and I really do), there is quite simplyno-one out there right now qho is ‘better’ than Shane, and I personally would rather Shane have the pay-day much more than anyone else I could mention right now.
For the record, I’d rather Manny fought Berto, but I still think the result is the same: Manny via decisive win.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
More than decisive
Where the southpaw Collazo gave him trouble, Manny would murder him if they fought now.
Collazo and Manny aren't similar fighters?
Sure, they’re southpaws, but they fight in very different ways. Andre Berto recently ran over a SOUTHPAW in Carlos Quintana. By that logic, does that mean he now beats Manny Pacquiao?
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 23, 2010 5:43 AM EST up reply actions
A Quintana whose previous welterweight bout was a first round KO by Paul Williams
Berto did knock out Freddie Hernandez. And we all know Hetnandez is a stepping stone o bigger things.
You mean a 1st round KO by SOUTHPAW Paul Williams???
Sorry, I couldn’t resist.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
There’s some sort of SOUTHPAW conspiracy going on here…
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 23, 2010 7:58 AM EST up reply actions
I know. And SOUTHPAW Quintana had previously defeated SOUTHPAW Williams in their first bout, and then SOUTHPAW Sergio Martinez KO’d SOUTHPAW Williams in round 2! The left hand is the Devil’s hand!!!
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
So... many... southpaws.......
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 23, 2010 8:09 AM EST up reply actions
Ours is an age of terror and smudged ink.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Sort of a 'sinister' style of fighting?
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I'm not lauding Berto's record here.
I just think you really need some perspective before you start saying that he’ll be crushed by Pacquaio because he nearly lost to Collazo. Collazo’s a really, really tricky guy who’s caused problems for just about every top fighter he’s faced. Berto will lose to Pacquiao because Pacquiao is so good, not simply because he’s a southpaw.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 23, 2010 7:57 AM EST up reply actions
I can just as easily argue that Shane Mosely was left on the sideline for 19 months after destroying Antonio Margrito
Nineteen months off at any point is bad enough.
At his age it’s even worse.
the he fought Floyd Mayweather, the other P4P best…and hurt him before losing badly.
Then….he fought a guy who makes everyone look bad, himself included; Sergio Mora.
Id Callazo makes people look bad it’s because he is better than most credit him for. If Mora makes you look bad, it’s your fault for fighting him in the first place.
Put simply, Shane beat Margarito after almost two years off, fought and hurt the best…and then looked bad vs a bad match.
Me thinks those are better qualifications thab Berto…who had proven little thus far at the elite level.
Quintana who'd also beaten Paul Williams over 12 rounds before that first round KO.
Let’s stop going round in circles, and just agree to disagree.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 23, 2010 8:04 AM EST up reply actions
What is 'more' than decisive?
You can say ‘destructive’, but those terms are not mutually exclusive. I actually can’t think of any term that you can now answer this question with that IS mutually exclusive with the term I used.
So I’ll say again: Manny via decisive win.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
They do all seem like simple fights. I completely agree.
But there are guys out there who are both more deserving and flat out better than Shane. It just doesn’t sit right with me that a guy who’s old, shot and looked like absolute shit in his past two fights – and who won’t have looked good since Jan ‘09 – can get a fight with Pacquiao just like that. I would much, much rather see an unproven guy go in there than someone where you know precisely what he can and can’t do, and where there’s now far more that he can’t do than can.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 23, 2010 5:41 AM EST up reply actions
More deserving?
In which sense?
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I would add that Shane would arguebly beat Marquez.
On that basis, he is the better choice to fight the best fighter in the game.
Or should I say the more “deserving”.
If Pac fights JMM, it needs to be at a max of 140.
Shane vs JMM at 147: Mosley all day, every day.
Shane vs JMM at 140: JMM has a real chance, since Shane would be dead at the weight.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I hate to say this
But there is a string of fightwriters and bloggers who are excessively dismissive of Mosely and yet there are fans of a more unban style, casual in many cases, hard core in others, black in some, who are not. They want to see this fight and believe that Mosely deserves it and still has a bdecent shotof giving us a show. And I agree. Let me put it this way. I would pick this Mosely to beat Marquez in an elimnation match every time. By that standard, Mosely is the more…and a very viable opponent. This arguement that Shane is shot and that Mrquez who cant win a round at welter is ‘deserving’ is crap. Plus it borders on disrespectful to both Shane’s accomplishments and his audience.
The reason people are dismissive of it is that Shane has looked like crap in his last two fights.
I’m glad for Shane Mosley that he’s getting a payday, but let’s not pretend he has earned this shot in the same way that, say, Ricky Hatton earnt a shot against Kostya Tszyu. Yes,Shane would beat up on old fat Marquez at 147, that’s cos Marquez is shit at 147, not because Shane is suddenly reborn and is a great fighter again.
If you’re looking for competitive, then Berto is the better fight. Shane just lucks out because there is no-one else who is even marginally viable who also represents a financial option ‘worthy’ of Top Rank/Pacquaio.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I absolutely agree on your first pargraph
and couldnt have saud it better.
Shane actually worked it…so to speak….so as a businessman he obviously has been getting and listening to better advice. Remember two years ago, he was begging for fights…and no one was getting them for him. (I say shame on his promoter) So this time, he went out and developed a relationship and negotiated his own deal.
As for boxing, I would like to see Berto against better competition. SM would have been a good test. Still would be IMO. He can now do what Shane did…..go get the fights that will get him the fight he…and everyone else… truly wants. Manny.
One further note. Manny was never going to satisfy everyone in one fight. If he fought Marquez, the urban black critics would bitch about style. Or weight. Or both. If he fought Berto, they would say he’s not urban…and he is too inexperienced and has done nothing to deserve it. When he fights Shane, then he’s fighting a shot version, plus Floyd’s leftovers.
Manny should just line them all up and in the next two years fight them all. But you have to fight one at a time.
In the meantime, he can continue his job as congressman and tell his critics to go pound sand.
And DC.
We don’t really disagree here as such; it’s more a difference of terms.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 24, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
I would have preferred Berto or Marquez though,and i’m certainly not looking forward to a 2011 Pacquaio schedule of Mosley followed by Marquez.
That’s likely two relatively easy ones in a row and is not good for the sport.
JMM is a joke at welter Matt
There would be moans and snickers galore if that fight were made. Floyd fans would laugh. I personally think it ends in the first half with Compubox counting KDs along with punches. That is assuming that they can count either one accurately.
Floyd fans would laugh.
They are now, too. And frankly should.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
Absolutely.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
And thus my main point. There are few if any options acceptable other than
To line them up and fight them all. For money.
Shane.
Marquez.
Floyd.
Then whoever earns the opportunity.
Fighting Manny at this point is a privilege. Even Morales and Mayorga want the payday.
Bradley would like it but he has much to prove above 140.
Berto may get it but he also has to brat someone to earn it.
Who is Berto going to beat to earn it? Jan Zaveck? The reality of the welterweight division is that there’s nobody else for Berto to fight besides Pacquiao and Mayweather. I would agree he’s not quite ready for that, but boxing is like life, and sometimes you have to do things you aren’t ready for because that’s the actual next step. Everyone can complain about who Berto fights, but his other options now are no better than the guys he’s actually fighting. If he fights Selcuk Aydin next, does that make him more legitimate than he was before?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
But even Di Bella who has a very good relationship with Arum knows that a Berto fight is not great business. He specifically said he understands the decision for Manny to fight Shane is smarter ( for business ) if not for boxing.
Plus, why can’t Berto fight Clottey, Cotto, or Margarito? Or even Williams.
Why should he get a big fight when he never fought a big one himself.
Well if we’re going to talk business, nobody is going to want to pay for another Joshua Clottey fight. That dude might as well be persona non grata at this point and he can only blame himself. I’ve said before I love Cotto-Berto as a fight but it’s not going to happen. Margarito can’t make 147 anymore and probably has no interest in risking what’s left of himself against Berto when he can wait to fight Cotto for bigger money. The same is probably true in reverse for Cotto, who is talking about fighting Ricardo Mayorga. Paul Williams isn’t going to fight at 147, either. That leaves the Selcuk Aydins of the world for Berto to pick from. He can’t even get a half-deflated Mike Jones since Top Rank is sticking Jones back in with Soto Karass next. That’s the reality of the situation. “Why can’t he fight Cotto?” Because Cotto’s not going to fight Andre Berto. At the very, very least, it’s every bit as much about worthwhile opponents — who all fight over 147 now, except Clottey who doesn’t fight at all — not fighting Berto as it is this idea that Berto isn’t fighting anyone. Who is he supposed to fight? There’s nobody he can fight that is going to improve his earning power or attractiveness, but it is all part of a nice excuse to fight weathered Shane Mosley instead. Berto’s a far better fight than Mosley now, and I understand the economics and readily admit that Mosley’s a much bigger star, but I’m tired of “well this guy means more dollars.” To hell with that. I want good fights, not good business decisions. I’ve worn myself out on business decisions and trying to explain away shittier fights than we should be getting because “It makes business sense.” I’m not being paid to shill for Top Rank’s Pacquiao v. Guy With Minimal Chance III: The Return of Pacquiao Pacquiao Pacquiao. There are enough people who can do that.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 6 recs
Amen to every single word of that.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 11:06 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Nor am I
But Lou Dibella is. And the fact that Berto can’t attract flies is his fault. Not Pacquiao’s.
As for Clottey, he almost beat Cotto in the garden one year ago.
He is a tough out for anyone. Just because he lost lost every round to the best fighter in the world does not mean he isn’t top notch competition for a prospect like Berto. He is much more accomplished with a record to show for it. Dismissing him is a disservice. He is a better gatekeeper than Aydins….and probably a lot more dangerous.
The reason Berto doesn’t get him is not because of how he fought Manny. that should in boxing be a reason to fight him. The reason is because of business. An African vs an overpriced Haitian with no fan base is bad business.
So let’s complain about promoters who Dont get their fighters fights….not the ones that do.
DiBella's Fault?
There is no fault in Berto not being a draw. He was supposed to have his big coming out party against Mosley and HBO was going full out to promote that fight. Hell I was ridiculously excited about that fight. Then Haiti happened. No way was Berto going to fight that fight with his head, heart, and body in Haiti. So then Floyd took and destroyed Mosley, Cotto left, and Pacquiao wants nothing to do with him. What’s Berto to do? Berto – Pacquiao could bring in significantly more fans than Clottey because Pacman isn’t a slam dunk in that fight. Does he win? Yeah? Does he win every round? Probably not!
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Dec 22, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
Berto is the fighter
The people that advise him, mange and promote him have a job to do. Getting him good fights is their responsibility. Once he gets them, he is supposed to fight well, win and put on a good show. Everyone needs to do that job well.
I should add that the networks, HBO in this case, have a responsibility.
They overpay for prospects and talent of which they often know little and the result is unproven fighters demanding to be compensated like real champions.
If Berto is not marketable…yet….then some one is NOT doing a great job. That is a fact. Not an opinion.
There are lots of very legitimate welterweights that a guy trying to make a name for himself can fight. In fact there is a whole calendar year in which they can stay active and built a resume that earns them big money real title belts. manny has one of those resumes.
Berto doesn’t. He needs to get his privileged ass to work.
Let's get this straight.
There aren’t a lot of very legitimate welterweights out there that a guy can make a name off. There simply aren’t. I’m not going to explain it, because Scott’s already done that better than I could a number of times. And, simply put, Andre Berto is not going to make a name for himself if Manny Pacquiao and Top Rank keep saying “Andre Berto has no fanbase”. No shit, Sherlock.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Sherlock, there are three guys that Manny has now beat at welter.
All legit.
Cotto.
Margarito.
Clottey.
Tell berto to take a fight and earn the right.
And, as explained before, Berto can't get a fight with any of those guys. (Margarito was at 150, but meh).
WHY SHOULD SHANE MOSLEY NOT TAKE A FIGHT AND EARN THE RIGHT? Please, please explain to me why Shane Mosley can just waltz into this fight on the back of a totally dominant loss and an absolute turd of a draw? What, because he beat Antonio Margarito 24 months ago? Becuase he’ll make 5 million dollars more than Andre Berto?
Going round and round in circles here.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Precisely
Berto is going in circles. The ring is square. He should get in it….then circle it.
Then ask for Pacquiao
Um, I don't know how to answer that.
You’re sort of now just ignoring any and all points about how Berto can’t get a fight with a name guy.
You want to ignore the facts? Be my guest.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You take less money than you have previously been over paid
Just like any of us that need work when the job market isn’t paying what it used to. You don’t sit on on your ass…or the dole if that be the case….and wait until someone comes along and gives you what you want. Or what you think you deserve.
You work.
You know.
The old fashioned way.
If you have trouble with that, maybe reading the front page of a major newspaper where tales of unemployment and under compensation are a plenty will help.
Maybe tell that to Josh Clottey too.
Oh, and by the way, Andre Berto asked for 2-3 million dollars less than Shane Mosley for his guarantee. Just saying.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 3:43 PM EST up reply actions
Clottey blew his biggest chance by turtle shelling his way through twelve rounds
Before that he fought plenty of the best to get the Pacquiao fight. In fact, he almost beat Cotto at MSG …and Manny still picked him next.
BTW, I wouldn’t mind seeing Manny fight Berto. I think he will at some point. Arum and DiBella have an excellent relationship.
I have little doubt that DiBella knows exactly why this fight did not happen now. He said as much. It wasn’t the best business.
I also believe he know s what he needs to do to make Berto more marketable. And hopefully will do it.
Point is, whereas guys like Zab and Margarito were available for Clottey, they aren’t for Berto.
And, in all honesty, I’m sick of hearing what is best for business. How about hearing what is best for boxing?
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
I dont disagree
But be consistent.
Tell that to every other primadonna fight with absurd demands. and their promoters.
Manny is the est thing to happen to boxing in years. And last I looked he earned it the hard way.
Please, don’t tell me to be consistent. You’re the guy who’s been banging on about Andre Berto needing to earn this fight in the ring, while completely ignoring the fact that Shane Mosley is 0-1-1 in his last two, having been beaten to shit by Floyd, before looking like shit against Mora. So, before you tell me to be consistent, maybe you should start by looking at yourself.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 5:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I have been entirely consistent
Read all of my many posts since the night of the Margarito Pacquiao fight.
I said SSM was the next fight.
I saidI didn’t like it.
I also said it was a fait accompli.
I ahve beebn 100% consistent with my position on Andre Berto. He needs to prove himself before he gets to fight Manny Pacquiao.
I have also been entirely consistent that this is a business and not fantasy game. Something you dont seem to have a grip on.
Let me add on more thing as far as responding to you any further on this subject. I’m done.
Then please stop preaching the virtues of the Mosley fight. You’ve been giving all this spiel about what can happen in any fight – just stop. The fight sucks. We’re fight fans. Fans of fights. I am not a fan of this fight. If you’re a fight fan, I’d assume that you also aren’t a fan of this fight. So please, stop extolling its virtues and its economic value and all of that crap.
And you haven’t been 100% consistent. Saying that Andre Berto – and not Shane Mosley – needs to prove himself before he gets to fight Manny Pacquiao is not being consistent. You’re giving one rule for one, and another rule for another. That, my friend, is not called consistency.
I am well aware that this is a business and not a fantasy game. However, I’m also someone who pays money to watch these guys fight. And, funnily enough, when a BULLSHIT fight gets made, I feel that I have every single right in the world to express quite how pissed off I am that, once again, I’ll have to pay to watch it. Is that okay with you?
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I didn’t say that Joshua Clottey is a bad fighter. I said he’s removed himself from TV consideration because with his resume (Pacquiao, Cotto, Margarito, Judah) he probably demands a fairly high amount of money for someone with no fans who put on a complete turd of a fight in his last outing. I really doubt HBO wants to pay Berto’s overpriced fee along with Clottey’s, which we agree on, and Clottey can blame himself for standing there for 36 minutes against Pacquiao. Clottey is almost a non-entity, even though he’s a top five fighter in the division.
So let’s complain about promoters who Dont get their fighters fights….not the ones that do.
I’m doing that. Bob Arum hasn’t gotten Manny Pacquiao a good fight since Cotto. He has however given him three good business decisions.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
Margarito would have killed any other welter we have named that night
He fought Manny.
He is legit as he’ll. He hurt Manny worse than anyone one else. Manny re-arranged his schedule to give more time to let his ribs heal.
Yes, Margarito took punishment in order to dish his own. He always has. He is a bad man. And a bad ass. He was trained to the max. he fought through an injury that would have made most good men cry…and most corners stop the fight. And he would have been legit in doing so himself.
But we are talking about Berto. If Margarito and Clottey are such easy marks, add them to his resume. Then call Mannys name. I would bet you that the draw would then be higher.
Problem is I don’t think Berto can beat either one.
BERTO CAN'T GET MARGARITO OR CLOTTEY IN THE RING WITH HIM.
Please, please re-read:
Well if we’re going to talk business, nobody is going to want to pay for another Joshua Clottey fight. That dude might as well be persona non grata at this point and he can only blame himself. I’ve said before I love Cotto-Berto as a fight but it’s not going to happen. Margarito can’t make 147 anymore and probably has no interest in risking what’s left of himself against Berto when he can wait to fight Cotto for bigger money. The same is probably true in reverse for Cotto, who is talking about fighting Ricardo Mayorga. Paul Williams isn’t going to fight at 147, either. That leaves the Selcuk Aydins of the world for Berto to pick from. He can’t even get a half-deflated Mike Jones since Top Rank is sticking Jones back in with Soto Karass next. That’s the reality of the situation. "Why can’t he fight Cotto?" Because Cotto’s not going to fight Andre Berto. At the very, very least, it’s every bit as much about worthwhile opponents — who all fight over 147 now, except Clottey who doesn’t fight at all — not fighting Berto as it is this idea that Berto isn’t fighting anyone. Who is he supposed to fight? There’s nobody he can fight that is going to improve his earning power or attractiveness, but it is all part of a nice excuse to fight weathered Shane Mosley instead. Berto’s a far better fight than Mosley now, and I understand the economics and readily admit that Mosley’s a much bigger star, but I’m tired of "well this guy means more dollars." To hell with that. I want good fights, not good business decisions. I’ve worn myself out on business decisions and trying to explain away shittier fights than we should be getting because "It makes business sense." I’m not being paid to shill for Top Rank’s Pacquiao v. Guy With Minimal Chance III: The Return of Pacquiao Pacquiao Pacquiao. There are enough people who can do that.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions
This is an interesting discussion
But I’d have to agree that it finally comes down to Berto finding a way to force the issue
I’d say that pakinpower is at least partially right—take less money
And maybe take a big chance: Fight some semi-beast at jr. middleweight
Yet I do see the other view: And Scott on the ‘business side" is 100% correct, but that ain’t changing, and it is a fact that many of us have been bemoaning for a long time—
Could be a bit of a death spiral
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2010 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
If Lou DiBella wanted to Berto fight one of Arums other welterweights
I don’t think there would be a problem.
Arum and DiBella can do business.
Berto could request that he do so.
Or call them out.
BTW, Berto almost lost to Collazo, a southpaw.
Manny would kill him.
That is IMO why you don’t here Berto calling his name.
Why do you just assume that Bob Arum is going to put Miguel Cotto or Antonio Margarito in the ring with Andre Berto? I will assume the exact opposite, that Arum has zero interest in matching Berto with Cotto or Margarito. I’m sure Arum would do Berto-Clottey, but I’m not sure you can get anyone to pay for it, and that has zero zip as a “minor” PPV even. I might pay $9.99 on GoFightLive.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
The he should fight Clottey.
Cotto might be an optionn but I doubt it. Althoughj DiBella is now offering his services, I suspect Manny Steward will help choose his next fight in preparation for the big money rematch with Margarito. And Cotto will have his own say.
I have no current thoughts on Margarito but my guess is as good as yours. I suspect however that he remains above 150…but then if Berto is willing to fight Cotto…maybe he should ask for Marg.
I’d pay to see that.
I'd pay to se:
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
This was a mistake
I;mmtrying very ard not to drunk-type, so please delete this post.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I'd pay to see:
any combination of;
Berto
Cotto
Clottey
Margarito
at 147.
Gladly.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Please, don’t pretend that Berto is any worse an opponent than Shane Mosley. Berto almost lost to Collazo – great. Mosley nearly got killed by Floyd, and looked like turd against Mora! He will be crushed by Pacquiao.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 5:52 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Great. At least we know he goes into the fight with a pulse, and perhaps some sort of shot. The same simply cannot be said about Shane Mosley.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
While I agree that Berto is the better fight,
I also think it’s debatable enough that it isn’t exactly like matching Joe Calzaghe with Byron Mitchell ahead of, say, Roy Jones Jr…..
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Pacquaio/Margarito was good fight
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
A great fight.
Haters aside, Margarito proved himself dangerous throughout the fight. All with a broken orbital.
But thoroughly predictable?
Margarito walked forward all night, threw a lot of punches – like Margarito does – but Pacquiao was too quick and too good – like Pacquiao is.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 23, 2010 5:23 AM EST up reply actions
I'd give Berto a LOT of credit if he beat Clottey
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Why does Shane Mosley not have to earn it? Does he genuinely deserve this fight on what he could do 5 years ago, and can’t do today?
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
And if Manny Pacquiao will draw so many fans to pay to watch him fight anyway (as you yourself have said), why not fight against a live body like Andre Berto?
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
Since both are seen as 'easy' fights for Pacquaio
and I’m gonna assume that you like watching Pacquaio fight as I do,
wouldn’t you rather the pay-day went to a guy like Shane, who has earnt it over the years?
I’ve said many timesthat I’d rather Manny fought Berto, but similar to when Scott says he’d rather his PPV money go to guys like Marquez and Morales (when discussing a fight between the two),does that not resonate a little with you?
I’d rather Manny fought Berto, but I’d rather Shane Mosley, you know, 5 (now 6) losses Shane Mosley, got the payday. Shane has given a shitload to boxing, and while I’m disappointed that Manny isn’t fighting Floyd (AGAIN), but I’m genuinely glad for Shane.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
That's pretty much how I see it.
There’s really no one, and he’s the most deserving of the unworthy-of-Pac choices for good, solid, non-win/loss-record reasons.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I don't think I'm as "Romantic" with this as you are. (Nice to see you back, by the way)
I really do like Shane Mosley, but I’m interested in seeing fights with the potential to at least be somewhat competitive. Now, I’m not saying Andre Berto is going to beat Manny Pacquiao – because he sure as hell isn’t – but he’s young, he’s fresh, and he’s got a much better chance of actually pushing Pacquiao to another level than Shane Mosley does. As such, I’d rather my money goes to Andre Berto. I’m not interested in giving charity to Shane Mosley.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 23, 2010 5:26 AM EST up reply actions
Floyd is doing a fine job of making himself irrelevant--
His fans can laugh all they want, but I’m surprised that there are many of them left to laugh
A few years ago, there was the argument that Jr. was just waiting for the dust to settle—
Well, it’s more than settled: It’s taken up home.
by Don From Prov on Dec 22, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
All he has to do is fight one once to become relevant again,
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Maybe--
Not if he fights a blown-up lightweight (who isn’t even a lightweight, but who is a Manny option)
And not if he’s lost the edge that all fighters, great or not, need
The man seems more a sad story heading in a predictable direction than a fighter any more
by Don From Prov on Dec 23, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
I heard that Ivan Calderon says if Floyd wants to fight another blown up old man, he's willing and able....
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Geez, that's
a horrible thought. Did he really say that?
by Don From Prov on Dec 23, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
It may have only been Arum:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lsytdDjdhQ
But I’m sure Calderon said something like that when Floyd decided to ‘come back’ and fight Marquez…
I’ll keep trying to find it…..
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Found it:
“After I win my fight at the Garden on Saturday night, I’m going for Floyd Mayweather Jr. next, since he only wants to fight guys smaller than him.”
http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/6/13/908267/fight-day-notes-cotto-clottey
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-148168.html
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/notebook?page=notebook/boxingjune11 (second article)
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
btw- Calderon TKO-3 in the biggest shock since a T-Rex looked up and saw a big fucking lump of rock coming at him....
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Floyd is doing a fine job of making himself irrelevant—
rec’d
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I'll be here til they close down the site, pal. :)
I’ll be the one that forgets to turn out the light.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Well,
if I knew how to write music, I’d transcribe those famous bars from Rocky.
Good that you’re happy to be posting again.
by Don From Prov on Dec 23, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Sulaiman is rubbing his hands together right now
while saying “eeeexcellent” in his Mr. Burns voice. Everything is going according to plan for him. He refused to let his belt be unified in Bradley-Alexander, so the winner will get stripped. Marquez no longer has a dance partner. Erik Morales just won another meaningless fight to move up the rankings at 140. Sometime in early February, expect an announcement of Marquez-Morales for the vacant junior welterweight title, with the winner becoming the first Mexican to win titles in four weight classes.
But this matchup just sucks. Sulaiman, Shane Mosley and Bob Arum are the only winners of this one.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Maybe the jury should stay out.
No one paid to see any of the great matches in Vegas the last few weeks. without Manny on the Marquee they can’t sell more than 5000 seats and that includes the FOTY candidate fights put on by yes, Arum… and Golden Boy.
Vegas wins with Manny’s return. They need this fight.
Also, how many people expected Mosely to beat Margarito…or hurt Floyd.
Better yet, who ever wanted to see Hopkins fight Pascal. Or even fight again.
This is boxing. There aren’t great matches to be made ever fight. But there are often great surprises. This one will be good while it lasts. Then there will be another.
I wanted to see Hopkins fight Pascal.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
by EastCoastA on Dec 22, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Me too.
Desperately.
But not as much as I wanted Hop to fight Dawson, whom I maintain he would crush….
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Weak.....
What’s the point? I hope I can find for free somewhere; no interest in paying for something where I already know how it will end…
Well good for Mosley
Congrats on the pay day. I hope Naazim has that towel ready, and not just when Shane is hitting the heavy bag.
so I’m sure I’ll be able to talk myself into believing Mosley has a shot in the fight week.
This was enough for me. In the end, I’ll enjoy the spectacle despite the match up.
Excuse my emotional, reactionary, fanatic output but Pettis will be the next UFC lightweight champion. Period.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
I’ll get there with it. I’m a boxing fan and I like Shane Mosley and Manny Pacquiao. I’ll at least be able to enjoy myself while it happens, I’m sure. I enjoyed Pacquiao-Margarito once the bell rang, too. Still think both fights reek.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
The way I look at it, he’s special, we won’t have him around forever, or even for much longer, there’s really nobody there worthy of him to fight, but he’s still great to watch. If it’s a clinic, it’s still Pacquiao. Get it while you can.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Ab so bloody lutely.
And as I have said above, he has the best resume in boxing today.
He has fought everyone. He wants to keep fighting.
Add to that that he is a gentleman. He us on record saying he likes doing business with others that are correct in their relationship with him. This is no different than other businesses in that regard. Real Estate moguls, media moguls, political rivals….all of them are the same. If they dont like you and they hold the power, they use you when and if they are ready. If a taxi driver has an asshole in their car, they can pull over and tell you to walk.
Manny holds ALL the cards. Why? Because he earned them. Now everyone wants to fight him. New guys, young guys, old guys and real old guys. Marquez was a dick and a fool in his approach to getting his desired fight. He negotiated like an idiot. Then he lost every round when he fought Floyd. Manny will give him his final beating and his payday soon enough.
But like you say BA, enjoy every minute. He is something very special.
Manny was great and very gentlemanly when doing business with Golden Boy and Top Rank at the same time. Just saying.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
It sounds to me...
Like you really have something personal against Pacquaio. The implications are there for just about your every post. Just say it, you can’t stand the guy. I see this as one reason but wanna know the others too!
I like Manny – he’s an awesome fighter, and seems a good guy. I think the fight sucks, and I’m pissed off hearing about how great Manny is right now when he’s willingly had this fight made. And he’s not a perfect gentleman – his business dealings with GB and TR were wholly wrong, and he was cheating on his wife as of last year. The guy isn’t a saint. Let’s just have some perspective.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 5:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Fair enough
And I like that you used the word “perspective”. Let’s argue the merits of the fight. It’s more fun.
Cheers, it’s all cool with me!
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 7:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
, and he was cheating on his wife as of last year.
Curious where you’re getting that from?
I know about the briefcase full of cash, so I’ll spot you the business dealings.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 22, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know if that was ever proven or what happened, but there have been lots of rumors about this: http://www.gmanews.tv/story/177351/pacquiao-victory-overshadowed-by-krista-ranillo-affair
Steve Addazio is gone! Thank you Temple!!!!
I will not buy any PPV promoted by Bob Arum.
Nothing would surprise me
but these rumors don’t really seem to have much substance, more innuendo.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Do you refer to Pacquiao, or Mosley?
The way I look at it, he’s special, we won’t have him around forever, or even for much longer, there’s really nobody there worthy of him to fight, but he’s still great to watch.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Pacquiao.
Mosely doesn’t look that good compared to Pac at this time. Wish there were a better fight out there for sure, but in real life, there isn’t—only in our dreams.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Sorry, I was being a little facetious. :)
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
the best fighter in the world doesn't always have to go out there and prove himself
look at the past 5 years and tell me he doesn’t deserve an oscar larios-type fight. gotta preserve your gem here. you don’t think these fights are taking a toll on pacquiao’s body, but the man is really a lightweight getting hit by individuals that can fight at middleweight. and in this sense he’s fighting another individual, in Mosley, that can ALSO fight at middleweight. don’t knot why people complain ’cause styles make fights.. mayweather & mora have similar styles..
Thank you.
All Pacquiao does is work to get better every fight, fight bigger and better men all the time. Fight every second of every round. Entertain us with his style, even mixing it up when he shouldn’t at times.
Asking him to fight somebody else’s idea of who is good for them in the name of boxing is asking the wrong person. Let the others earn their spots.
And if we are not talking about business, then stop using double standards.
Complaining about Manny’s decisions being based on economics and politics…. and then complaining about the financial complications of others is transparently just that.
Boxing is a business. How you play it is part of life. Earn your chance, seize the moment, entertain the fans….and when the opportunity presents itself, make your break.
And if we are not talking about business, then stop using double standards.
Complaining about Manny’s decisions being based on economics and politics…. and then complaining about the financial complications of others is transparently just that.
My point is this, since maybe I’m not making it clear: I understand the economics, but I don’t care. They don’t make this fight more palatable to me. However the economics, I realize, are a reality. And they do make things the way things are. But that does not make Pacquiao-Mosley a good fight, and I’m not going to act like it’s a good fight because I’d be being dishonest if I presented that opinion. I’d rather see Pacquiao-Berto or as I said in the other thread, even Pacquiao-Cotto II. I just have no good feeling for Pacquiao-Mosley in 2011.
My bottom line point is that I think Pacquiao-Mosley is a crap fight and “good business” cannot soften that. Cannot soften the stool.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
and that's fine
I’d have also preferred Pacquiao-Marquez, which I think at this stage is a physical mismatch, but JMM just keeps going out there and winning fights, and I know how bad he wants it. Shane wants the money.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
SC, They all want the money
That is why it is truly not possible to discuss this sport (or most any) without taliking about it.
I want Manny to fight everyone. And I think he will try. Some will be names of yesteryear…and others I would hope of tomorrow.
But nothing was handed to this kid.
He earned every bit of whta is now his to manage.
His boxing resume is unparalled these days. (BHop a close second).
Other fighters should look his example. At what he has done.
And stop expecting things to be handed to them.
This is a hard man’s game.
Enter at great risk.
But take them.
Oh I know everyone wants the cheddar, but JMM…boy, that guy has a chip on his shoulder, and I think it’s legit. This isn’t boxing talk, this is a guy who straight up thinks he beat Manny Pacquiao twice and was robbed of his glory. That’s why I want to see that one again, even though I believe I’m aware of what happens, and that it ain’t pretty.
I love Manny Pacquiao, for the record. You couldn’t ask much more of a great fighter and representative of a sport, but well, I’m going to keep asking more until he goes down the old dusty trail. I don’t want to feel like I missed something special for fights with ancient Mosley.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough
But I believe Roach and others have indicated JuanMa is next.
What I find a bit silly is this total condemnation of a guy who gave Floyd Mayweather a genuine scare a year ago at welterweight…..and the desire to see a lightweight who not only lost every round he ever tried fighting at welter badly (to the very same Floyd)….but looked like a inflated pinata in doing so.
We all know Manny is not going down in weight….and watching Marquez travel back up seems like an exercise in futility to me.
But I believe Roach and others have indicated JuanMa is next.
You keep saying that, but then you told me JMM is going to leave GBP in order to get the fight. So is he just waiting his turn, or is he going to have to undertake extraordinary measures to get Pac in the ring?
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 22, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
Both. In fact Golden Boy already said it would step aside...for a fee.
Unfortunately for JMM , the fee ease huge and made him expensive.
After he watches Shane get what he wanted, either he will follow suit…or GB will make further concessions.
That is if they are smart.
So is he just waiting his turn, or is he going to have to undertake extraordinary measures to get Pac in the ring?
Both.
http://518fever.com/wp-content/uploads/asdimoro/confused.jpg
Most people don't know shit about boxing. At all. Period. - Roger Mayweather
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 23, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Shane does not deserve the money
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
mayweather & mora have similar styles
I don’t think they’re alike in any way whatsoever except that they are both marketed as defensive specialists. Mayweather is an incredible defensive slickster who creates offense from his defense. Mora is a guy who sells himself as a great defensive boxer, but is really just a guy who doesn’t like to fight. He creates nothing from his defense except more defense.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 22, 2010 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
He creates nothing from his defense except more defense.
His D is effective for insomnia. It induces sleep
Handy if he's fighting a narcoleptic
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I laughed
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
To hell with that. I want good fights, not good business decisions. I’ve worn myself out on business decisions and trying to explain away shittier fights than we should be getting because "It makes business sense." I’m not being paid to shill for Top Rank’s Pacquiao v. Guy With Minimal Chance III: The Return of Pacquiao Pacquiao Pacquiao. There are enough people who can do that.
Yeah, pretty much.
People who are actively making dough off the fight – whether from the gate, the fees, the PPV, etc – can blather all they want about how brilliant a business decision this fight is. I’m a consumer of boxing, not a producer. When I shop for other products, like Bran Flakes, I don’t stand in the aisle and agonize over whether or not the fine folks at Kellogg are making sharp business decisions. How much money they will make from my purchase doesn’t factor into whether or not I’m going to buy the damned thing. All I care about is the quality of the product, and its price relative to its quality.
Anyway Brand Flakes suck, and so does this fight.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Yup
can you email me so I have your active email address?
There is something I need your input on, if you don’t mind.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Some pipe dreams of mine
I’d like to see Golden Boy get spiteful and put on a free boxing card the same night just to stick it to Mosley. Some exciting match-ups of their own fighters that wouldn’t cost too much to put together. They’d come in second to anything with Pac in it, but I’d like to see Arum and Mosley’s parade get pissed on, even if just a little. Maybe all the other promoters could team up on this one, under some banner of at least pretending to care about the fans.
"Mug an old lady, and if you have the right connections the WBO will rank you seventh." -Steve Farhood
Gay Gay
I guess Pacman is allergic to young boxers,slick boxers, and counterpunchers. He didn’t fight a prime Casamayor, Guzman, and even Raheem. I love Pacquiao, but he has fought a lot of fighters on the way out, why doesn’t he give a young fighter a chance, so he can show y he is the best.
by 36_chambers_ofdeatH on Dec 22, 2010 7:54 PM EST reply actions
“Gay Gay”? What’s that all about?
And Pacquiao fought a prime Juan Manuel Marquez, twice. There’s allergic to counterpunchers for you.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Dec 22, 2010 8:03 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Marquez was 31 years old the first fight, and 35 the second fight. Not really in his prime the second time around was he.
by 36_chambers_ofdeatH on Dec 24, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
Casamayor is 39 years old. Back when Casamayor was in his prime, Pacquiao was a flyweight.
Don’t say “gay, gay,” or Emile Griffith will come out of retirement and splatter you like a ripe tomato.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
by jrok on Dec 22, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Ha, I live with my gay cousin, so when I said “gay”, I was referencing Pacquiao’s decision to chose another non-competitive fight, thank you very much. Furthermore, the Emile Griffith comment was excellent.
by 36_chambers_ofdeatH on Dec 24, 2010 10:10 PM EST up reply actions
Keep the boxing analysis. Leave the homophobia.
Kthanxbai.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Dec 22, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
Seeing Shane Mosley's face turn to hamburger
is not appealing to me in the slightest. It’s not quite Willie Mays falling down in center field for the Mets, but it’s still sad. There is no boxing fan in his/her right mind that can make a case for Shane winning this fight. None. What the fuck is the point?
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
My take is that Berto is still on the left hand side of the bell curve though getting near the peak while Mosley is on the right hand side and moving down rapidly. Manny will dispose of Mosley easily, probably being the first to stop him. He also would dispose of Berto who still has lots to learn. BUT—Manny is beginning to cross over ever-so-slightly into the right hand side of the curve. Won’t matter much re Mosley or Berto, but with someone like Bradley, it might.. I do think Berto makes more sense than Mosley. Let Mosley fight Clottey. Why should Mosley be rewarded for a draw against Mora and a terrible perfomance against Mayweather? At leats Berto has been winning.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Quotes by Arum indicate that he likes Berto.
That plus his relationship with DiBella should get that fight sooner or later.
Kermit Cintron would like to fight Berto at welterweight
Both are managed by the same men, Dibella and Haymon.
Cintron thinks they are protecting Berto.
There’s an easy way to find out.
Why is everyone
speaking so loudly?
Cintron wanting Berto at welterweight? There is a fight for the young man.
test
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
unclosed bold tag
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Dec 24, 2010 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
Why, I'm yelling
too: Stop the block letter insanity!!
But I do love pp’s last post. And give Cintron this, he is a head case, but he’s also willing—
Now I don't have to listen to those crazy "Pac has never fought an African American boxer" Mayweather fans.
PBF has NOTHING on PacMan.
SUPREME'REEM K-1 Champ!
Semper Fi'
Pain don't hurt...
The haters will find something else to hate
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
There's always old faithful.
Wear something sexy to my funeral.
by Pops Daniels on Dec 23, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions
Mosley gets an undeserved payday here. Why should Mosley be rewarded for a draw against Mora and a terrible perfomance against Mayweather? At leats Berto has been winning. The Bradley-Alexander winner makes the most competitive sense to me, while Mosley quals the best Risk-Reward equation for Roach.
Money rules here, but Mosley is all done and will be on the chopping block come May.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Listening to Shane talk today compared to how he sounded 5 years ago suggests to me that fighting the very best opposition without any breathers may have taken a bad toll on him. Maybe I’m wrong—and I sure hope I’m wrong—but I don’t much like the nasal sound to his slower than before speech. I’d say he has been given more than ample oportunity to win enough money to move to Monoco. Obviously somethinhg bad happened and now he finds himself on the potential chopping block against the a killing machine. Not a good place to be when you are almost 40 years old and a lot older via ring age.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
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