Boxing Labels: A Typology
A few years ago, I read a news report on Carlos Baldomir's miraculous 2006, in which he scored a shocking upset over Zab Judah to win the Ring Magazine lineal welterweight championship (he then defended the title against Arturo Gatti before losing a lopsided decision to Floyd Mayweather Jr. later that year). In the story, Baldomir was referred to as a "journeyman", and I remember being quite offended. Obviously, Baldomir is not in the same league as a Floyd Mayweather, but there's a significant difference between someone who, even on a great night, is capable of becoming lineal welterweight champion, and a Reggie Strickland.
To try and rectify that, I'm trying to create a typology of boxing labels, so fighters are referred to properly and given their just due. I'm not saying they're perfect, or even that I myself have or will use them consistently. But I think they're solid benchmarks.
Superstar, Star, and Action Star
The best of the best (with one caveat, see below). What makes one a star (of any variety), in my book, is that one's fights are meaningful simply because the fighter is participating in them (and not because, say, a title is on the line). So, for example, Bernard Hopkins and Kelly Pavlik fought at a catchweight in 2008, with no belt at stake. But the fight still mattered, because Hopkins and Pavlik were in it. Obviously, a belt can help make a fight even more meaningful (e.g., Sergio Martinez and Paul Williams II for the lineal middleweight title), but the point is the fighters exert an independent gravitational pull.
Within the category, a superstar is a boxer whose popularity transcends the sport itself. A star's fights are important to boxing fans, but a superstar's fights are important to the public. Superstars show up in Nike commercials and are guests on Dancing with the Stars. They're the folks who, if you ask a random guy off the street what they think of boxing, respond "I don't watch it, but I hear that Pak-kow guy is pretty good."
An interesting permutation of this group is the action star. Unlike stars or superstars, an action fighter may not be amongst the sports elite. But like other stars, his fights are meaningful because of the fighter, not the belt. Usually that's because the boxer fights with an exciting style and has won a ton of fans. Arturo Gatti is perhaps the prototypical example of this: his fights were important because they were Gatti fights, but Arturo Gatti was never really amongst the sports top fighters. He was just an raw, brawling, tough, exciting-as-hell slugger, and folks loved him for it.
Examples
Superstars: Manny Pacquiao, Floyd Mayweather
Stars: Bernard Hopkins, Shane Mosley, Miguel Cotto
Action Stars: John Duddy, Arturo Gatti
Champions and Titlists
This category exists parallel to the above -- one can be star and a titlist or champion, or one but not the other (or, of course, neither). A titlist is someone in possession of a sanctioning body belt, while a champion is the holder of the lineal, Ring Magazine title (a/k/a, "the guy who beat the guy who beat the guy") in his weight class. One would hope that most of the fighters good enough to win titles are stars in their own right, but it's not always the case (any Vyacheslav Senchenko fans in the house?). Even a champion doesn't necessarily have to be a star -- perhaps Carlos Baldomir is an example of that. And on the flip side, one can definitely be a star with no titles in one's hands -- Bernard Hopkins being a prime example right now.
Examples
Champions: Sergio Martinez (Middleweight), Juan Manuel Marquez (Lightweight) (note that both of these fighters are also stars in their own right).
Titlists: Andre Ward (Super Middleweight), Vyacheslav Senchenko (Welterweight) (Ward is also a star, but Senchenko most certainly isn't).
Contenders and Fringe Contenders
What makes a contender? A contender is someone who is not a star, doesn't have a title, but most observers think would have a decent chance of winning one on any given night he's put in the ring with a titlist. A contender might be as good or better than a current titlist -- he just happens not to be in possession of a belt. A fringe contender is someone who, on any given night, may be able to beat another contender, and fighting the fight of his life could upset a true titlist. A title bout against a fringe contender is generally considered a weak but not inexcusable defense (but one would rather see them defend against a true contender). Fringe contenders often also double as high-level gatekeepers (see below).
Examples
Contenders: Sakio Bika (Super Middleweight), Luis Collazo (Welterweight)
Fringe Contenders: Ray Austin (Heavyweight), Said Ouali (Welterweight)
Gatekeepers
Gatekeepers have widely varied divergent skill levels. What they share in common is their service as a measuring stick for prospects (below), letting observers get a gauge for how good another fighter is. Each one is a milestone for a fighter, letting them know they have progressed to a certain skill level. Gatekeepers are generally expected to lose to the prospects they face, but it's not necessarily a foregone conclusion -- the whole point is to test whether the guy is for real, or just a hype job. Consequently, gatekeepers usually have some amount of skill, sufficient to actually test young talent. Since they are "supposed" to lose, unfortunately, it also means they're often on the wrong end of the decision in tightly contested (sometimes not-so-tightly contested) fights.
Examples
Zuri Lawrence (Heavyweight), Jerson Ravelo (Light Heavyweight).
Prospects
Who counts as a prospect? It's a little arbitrary, but I would say a prospect is someone who we can imagine reaching at least contender status at the pinnacle of his career. Of course, they're not there yet, and there is another degree of arbitrariness as to when a fighter graduates from prospect to contender. Incidentally, prospects skip over the "fringe contender" stage -- a fringe contender is nearly invariably someone who was once a contender but has since shown they couldn't hack it at that level.
Examples
Matvey Korobov (Middleweight), Sadam Ali (Welterweight)
Journeymen
Everybody else. Journeymen are the lifeblood of boxing. Most cards are filled with journeymen -- sometimes fighting each other, sometimes being fed to a prospect. They have a wide variety of records and talent levels. Sometimes they can even rise above their humble origins and become a fringe contender (or even a real one). Sometimes they're simply tomato cans. But in any event, they're worth saluting.
Examples
Reggie Strickland (Super Middleweight), Peter Buckley (Welterweight).
There's one category of fighter I can't think of a good label for -- and, ironically, it might be what characterized Baldomir before his fight against Judah. These are folks who have been fighting too long to be really be called prospects, but are effectively unknown against upper-level competition (they often are pretty obscure, until they get brought in as a random opponent for a name-guy). On the other hand, they're clearly better than journeymen, and it seems unfair to group them with the Peter Buckley's of the world. "Fringe Contender" probably comes the closest with respect to their typical talent level, but they haven't been hanging around the fringes of the division's top 10, so we don't really know for sure.
Suggestions would be appreciated -- but do them a favor, and don't call them "journeymen". They're better than that, and they deserve a better name than that.
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It doesn’t always qualify, but usually I think of those guys who could be good, but aren’t really prospects, as “regional level”. My classic example of of a regional level fighter might be Mario Veit. He beat a lot of other Euro-level guys, but couldn’t get it done at the world class. If he had done it at the world class, then obviously he gets upgraded. But this is where I’d stick the Michael Jennings’ of the world, and the guys like Baldomir and Martinez before they got the opportunity to step up.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I think regional is more or less exactly what I was going for
Thanks, Brick (and thanks for the bump to the main page!)
And I'd say there's still one more level below Journeymen
And that’s “opponents”. Either guys who aren’t full time fighters and get paid to lose, or guys who get booked just to pad a fighter’s record without necessarily trying to give them a tough fight. Basically, everyone Deontay Wilder has fought up to this point.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Tomato Can.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
That totally works too
But journeyman suggests some kind of competence to me.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
BTW, I'm front paging this one - I agree with 90% of it, and it's worth a read
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
This is a bloody awesome post.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
This is a very cool article
but I will never manage to remember all the categories
btw, the addition of regional level is a good one: some names come to mind right away
Anyway, good post
One more category that could be added I guess
Is “clubfighters” – guys who are never going to be world class or probably even regional class, but who manage to draw locally, beat a fair number of decent fighters, but usually will lose if they step up. Examples: Matt Vanda, Vinny Maddalone, etc.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
what about tomato can
i feel thats pretty common parlance
No one can become a Reggie Strickland unless his last name is also Strickland.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Reggie Strickland is the farthest thing from a journeyman. He is a “designated loser” in the same sense as those 7 or 8 guys in the U.K. are who now have over 100 losses each.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Yeah, exactly
If the Stricklands are journeymen, then the journey is to the Center of the Earth.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I wish I got that.....
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
and that's NOT a journeyman????
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 23, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
A journeyman is someone who goes on a journey, so to speak. I think what Ted is saying that Strickland didn’t go on a journey because all he did was lose, and didn’t go up a tier/level throughout his career.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Reggie was abarnstorming loser. Part of agroup that had actuall had a name and toured the backroads of the midwest.
The longest chapter in my second book is devoted to the barnstrmers and to the designated losers.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I really want to get a hold of Zack Page at some point
And do a 20 page or so chapter on him. Not sure if I have the determination to actually write a book, but the mental process behind being someone like him – good, but knowing you’ll always be on the wrong end of things, and not being good enough to ever reach the higher heights – really fascinates me. There aren’t too many professions out there where you can make more money to basically have other people pretend you suck when you’re actually pretty decent at it.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Let me come right out an say it. Some of these guys laid down. Hell, many of them fought each other
using several different names.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
People who use Tomato Can or stiff or bum have never been in a ring. People like Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant who deep down have no real respect for fighters even though they make their very lucrative living off them.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Tomato can is more of a reference to the fighter that should be fighting higher quality opponents than it is to a fighter not being very good.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Every one knows what Tomato can refers to. I've been around a long time and the term has been used longer han I've been around.
Tomato can means bum means stiff.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Tomato can opens up and red stuff comes out. A tomato is a no-hoper, bum, etc. There to lose to someone who is a hopeful or has “good” management or both.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I think Dafs is saying that the criticism is more aimed at the guy fighting the 'can'
rather than at the ‘can’ himself.
ie- by saying someone is fighting a can, the actual focus of your ire is the guy who will be doing the opening up. I’m not saying that’s my own POV, but that’s how I read Dafs’ post.
Also, and this is a minor point, not everyone who bleeds is referred to as a can. I never heard anyone refer to Gatti as a can, or laugh at Vitali’s face post-Lennox and say he was a can. I’m not even sure if that means I’m disagreeing with you or not, but I suppose the distinction I would make is that your first sentence is about something opening up and red stuff coming out, and that doesn’t always designate a can, by itself.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Yeah that’s my point. If the ‘can’ was facing someone a similar level to him, they wouldn’t be called tomato cans, but because they’re facing a much better opponent, they get referred as a ‘no-hoper’ due to the difference in ability. The fight is set-up to develop the other fighter, and notch another one in the ‘W’ column.
I’m not criticizing them, because without these kind of fighters the sport wouldn’t be the same.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Look, tomato can is right down their with Palooka. I have been following this sport
for over 60 years and Tomato Cna has always been used to describe a fighter who otherwise has been described as abum who otherwise has been called a stiff. It s perjorative and always has been. You can put any spin you want on it, but it won’t change what is is supposed to mean. Here is agood way to test it. Go up to a boxer, any boxer, and call him a tomato can. See if he reacts “intelectually.”
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
This will sound a little naive, but what’s the difference between labelling a fighter a ‘can’ and a ‘designated loser’? I wouldn’t like to go up to any boxer and call him a designated loser either, but I guess it’s a more polite way of phrasing it.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Good point. But a designated loser is something I can argue on a logical and intellectual basis,
while using tomato can is a bit too emotionally charged and insultin for me.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Well I wasn;t being literal about it
It is what it is. A tomato can stinks.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Only if you leave it out in the sun for approximately 4 days....
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
The road warrior, the spoiler, and the cutie are worthwhile and respectful labels.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
No, I don't think so. He is aprime example of a tough test. But he is not a s poiler
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
With due respect to dafs
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
No worries. I think we have different definitions of spoiler.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
ney
Burton, Ray Olivera, Alex Trujillo (a prospect with a 23-1 record),
Carlos Wilfredo Viliches 37-1-2 (Augustus took the fight on 2 days
notice), Mike Griffith (who gave Paul Spadafora all he could handle,
and Terrel Finger, 21-0, whom he KOd in 8. He also derailed Fred
186 reelin ’ in the years The S poiler 187Ladd, 45-1, coming in, Soren "Mr. Perfect" Sonderrgrad, 38-1, (the
fight was ruled a draw though most thought Augustus had won), and
David Toledo, 25-1 at the time. He also fought to a draw with the
late Leavander Johnson. That’s impressive spoiling.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
With wins over Freddy Italo Rojas, 48-1, Tony Lopez, 45-5-1, Darryl
Tyson, 45-6,, Jorge Paez, 46-5-4, Tracy Spann, 27-1-1, Livingston
Bramble, 26-2-2, Tyrone Price 12-0, most by stoppages, "Fearless"
Freddie Pendleton fit the mold as well as anyone. In March 1986,
"Fearless" Freddie, who was (14-13) at the time, shocked the boxing
world by knocking out Roger Mayweather, 23-3, in the 6th round
at the Sahara Hotel in Las Vegas.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Ted Sanders (1977-1983) was aclassic spoiler back in the day.
So was Manning "The Spoiler" Galloway (1978-2006) and Darryl Pinckney (1985-2006)
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
One of my best buddies, Bob Benoit, was agreat spoiler as well between 1966-1974.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Dafs, it's time you purchased Reeli'n in the Years, Boxing and More.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Before I quote the entitre book on this thread
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I may even send you a copy as a gift!!!
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Dafs, how can a guy who likes Chelsea like the Bears?
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
My family has a long tradition of being Chelsea supporters, and everyone loves the underachieving Bears, right!?
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
This year they are doing pretty well
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
closing italics
"Basketball fights last two punches. Make sure you throw both of them." - John Thompson Jr.
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by Chris Haines on Dec 27, 2010 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
Hey, how did you do that??
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I think I might
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
There are cuties, there are bombers and there are closers, but what
about spoilers? A spoiler to me is a boxer who derails a potential
or favored contender and thwarts his chances, at least temporarily,
of staying hot or even winning a championship.
5’10’’ Tony "The Rock" LaRosa beat Trevor Berbick, Dwight
Muhammad Qawi, Iran Barkley, and Lenny LaPaglia. Sure, they were
all upsets, but "The Rock" did some serious dererailing with these
wins and was a serial spoiler.
Had Kevin Howard beaten a come-backing Ray Leonard, he would
have been a spoiler. He even had so nicknamed himself. Gene "Mad
Dog" Hatcher spoiled many a streaking boxer’s record– something
to which Joe Manley, Alfredo Escalera, and Johnny Bumphus can
all attest. Mike "The Bounty" Hunter certainly did some serious
spoiling. He could turn a fight between himself and some flashier,
stronger, and faster opponent into a battle of limited exchanges.
Jose Maria Flores Burlon, Jimmy Thunder, Pinklon Thomas, Dwight
Muhammad Qawi, Oliver McCall, Alexander Zolkin and Buster
Mathis Jr. can verify the "Bounty Hunter’s" propensity to spoil expectations.
When Jimmy Young derailed George Foreman, he was a
both a "cutie" and a "spoiler."
When Tommy Morrison was upset by Michael Bentt in 1993 thus
depriving the "Duke" of a hugh payday against Lennox Lewis, some
called Bentt a spoiler, but one upset does not make a spoiler. No,
a spoiler in my view must have a propensity to pull off upsets with
some degree of regularity while still remaining at a lower level than
those he beats. Of course, when a fighter has a large number of "upsets"
during the course of his career, that may be another story.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
He'd be a spoiler if he didn't get robbed
Three wins over undefeated prospects; a draw against a guy who’s considered a high level gatekeeper; a win over a guy who beat Tyson; a win over a former European champion; disputed losses against a few other good prospects; and he’s won some rounds against almost nearly every fighter he’s faced, including a few champions – all while losing three fights for every time he wins and almost exclusively fighting well regarded fighters. Maybe my love for Zack Page is a bit high, but I think he’s the epitome of a spoiler.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
It always makes me wonder...
If fighters like Zack Page had a proper training camp and notice before being drafted in as a late replacement, how much of a difference their records would look?
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Very different, I think
There are a lot of guys out there who probably could have been something had they had a sponsor to let them quit their day job and train full time, much less getting matched up carefully. Just one quick example (and maybe I’m just tripping), but look how much better Sakio Bika has gotten since winning The Contender, for instance.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Lemieux’s 25-0-0-24 shows him going 10 rounds only once, against Jason Naugler, a Halifax, Nova Scotia journeyman (18-12(2)-1-11) with losses to Chad Dawson, Jean Paul Mendy, James McGirt, Donovan George, and Jesse Brinkley. He seems the epitome to me of a journeyman heading toward opponenthood (lost his last 7) who, had intervention by a good trainer come early, achieved, if not elite status, at least a much higher tier. I remember thinking about it watching him, he wasn’t totally untalented, but was totally outclassed by superior training and conditioning. He was good enough to stay up vs. Lemieux, who was out of condition and not fighting his best that night.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
No way in hell.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I thnk Brick has explained his logic pretty well, to be honest.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
I think I have as well
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I submit it is with all due respect. The same thing existed for Marion Anderson and Bigfoot Martin
Maybe my love for Zack Page is a bit high
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Err Marion Wilson
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Without the journeymen, there likely would be no boxing. They provide the foundation and grounding for the sport we love so much. Being a journyman is not a bad thing. Unlike some fighters who are matched to lose with the certainty of the sun setting……fighters like Andre Crowder, Danny Wofford (who has lost over 100 fights), Frankie Hines (lost 120), and Marcus Rhode, the journeymen are solid and competent fighters capable of an occasional surprise though they rarely rise to the top. Some, like Ross Puritty, Quinn Navarre, or Everett Martin are the tough gate keepers through which others must pass to reach the next level. Others, like Kenny Craven, Terry Crawley or Louis Monaco, fight six rounder’s or less to fill out a promoter’s card much like a chef puts garnish on a plate to give it a sense of false fullness. Hell, Kenny fought Eric Esch 4 times going 2 and 2! And some, like Garing Lane, Harold Sconiers or Jeremy Bates, get an occasional main event opportunity of their own. Often journeymen are all three…………..but some, like Saad Muhammad before drop to this status because they fail to heed the warnings
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
For your un-named category:
I would suggest ‘veteran’. Obviously there can be a few different levels of veteran, and it may only be applicable as an a qualifying adjective: “Veteran Gatekeeper”.
But when it comes to Baldomir, in particular, I see your issue. He doesn’t fit any of the categories you’ve specified. Same with Lovemore N’Dou, Sam Peter (possibly), maybe a Kendall Holt or Nate Campbell (in the last 18 months or so, anyway).
I get the feeling there is another word more suitable, and if it miraculously pops into my head, I’ll come back and post it.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
RESPECT
I never give a fighter any thing but respect. I have never called a fighter a tomato can, stiff or a bum and I am 65 years old. My hat is off to any man who climbs into the ring to do battle and I think people who do not respect fighters are stuck on stupid. I agree with Kid Blast on this one, Lampley and Merchant are not boxing experts by any stretch of the imagination and they ought to be replaced by Sean O’Grady or some one who loves and knows boxing. The time spent waiting before a fight would finish most men. The time in the dressing room is harder than the fight itself, I have been there and done that.
Tex says it better than I can.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Boxing Encyclopedia defines barnstormers as follows: A barnstormer
(or ‘barnstorming‘) is a term used to describe a boxer who
goes from small town to small town, taking fights, often against local
heroes, for cheap, but frequent paydays. Barnstorming was common
among black fighters before 1940. It was also done by heavyweight
champions such as Jack Dempsey, in the form of exhibition tours. In
some instances the barnstormer, if already well known, would come
to town with his hand-picked opponent. Although this would usually
provide him with a safe foe, it often provided for a mismatch and a
disappointed crowd.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Barnstormers like Reggie Strickland made a decent living with predictable and ultra frequent activity. Some did it by being a designated loser, often against each other. Others were winners who had gloves and were willing to travel as road warriors like Buck Smith.
The Alabama Kid and Tiger Jack Fox also come to mind. Also Simmie Black.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Boston lightweight Tommy Tibbs who ran up a markof 58-77-4 but was stopped only 8 times. Fighting from 1950-1972,he did battle in such global spots as Soweto, Gauteng, South Africa,Jamaica, London, Paris, Sydney, Australia, Italy, Mexico, Puerto Rico,Canada, Cuba, Hawaii, the Philippines, Venezuela–and barnstormed up and down the Eastern seaboard and Mid Atlantic states. He split six with the great Harold Gomes. Sadly, he was shot to death in a dispute at a Roxbury bar in Boston at age 40
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Peter Buckley has seen it all in his 257 [now 295] fight career to date and is a wily old fox when it comes to not being hurt by his youthful and exuberant opponents as he takes them throughtheir "Initiation. —Tom Walker
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Peter Buckley was a decent junior boxer… I’m sure he boxed for England Schoolboys at the ABA’s.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
He had the most losses in history, however.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
He knew his role
I’m sure he could have won a lot more fights had he wanted to. He had a lot more skills than most of the journeymen you see on Sky undercards. He just wasn’t a huge fan of throwing punches, because he knew his next payday was only going to come if he lost the fight.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
But he didn't and that's what his record will reflect. This is not about "what ifs," this is about what is.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
He can't have been very good then.
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 23, 2010 10:03 PM EST up reply actions
He had skills for sure, but like Dafs said, he knew his role.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Certain fighters play a certain role. Some seemed to have found a comfortable way to lose.Said another way, they are savvy enough to survive without undue risk, but at the same time provide enough excitement to guarantee more fights. Their ability to come back time and again is their meal ticket. They are a promoter’s dream; they represent reliability and virtual certainty. Indeed. It’s not if; it’s when.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
By the way, I like this thread!
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Labels schlabels
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 23, 2010 8:29 PM EST reply actions
Yeah, I kind of feel that way as well, but they exist.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I hate fuckin' labels.
I like a lot of Country music but when you mention it, people go off on one – as if they’re experts! I know people who won’t listen to music if it has a fiddle in it, ffs! Labels can so many times become just that – labels. Meaningless if one meets a pedant.
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 23, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah. It's best to stay loose and flexible while try to categorize things. Boxing allows for it to
some degree. Just subjective enough to make you go bonkers. No one is right and no one is wrong.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I have not trouble with such terms when used loosely but descriptively by decent writers.
Fans get in the way though when they argue that so-and-so is a bum, a tomato can, a contender, a GOAT, etc.. That’s when it becomes tiresome and nit-picking.
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 23, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
yep. My goal is to try to educate (while at the same time trying to be educated). I think
many younger would gain by tryinhg to grab hold of the hisitorical context of much of this stuff. I give Kellerman his due and also Teddy Atlas. Both know their history. Merchant doesn;t know squat. He is a lazy historian. Erragh
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
younger fans
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
For sure.
I always sought out all the books I could possibly find on boxing, either in the local library or in book-sellers. Sadly, it’s a monority sport and good writers and good subjects are hard to find. Since the Ali TV age, it’s become more a TV sport that anyone can ‘follow’ than an afficianado’s sport alone. That means more shit books, not less. Less good books, not more.
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 23, 2010 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
I have acouple my daughter just sent me.
The Life and Times of Sugar Ray Robinson
Tales from the 5th St. Gym
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Sounds intriguing
Must look on Amazon
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 23, 2010 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
Donnie "The Spoiler" Penelton has a slate of 13-164-5 and, like Strickland, a low excitement index. Penelton knew how to survive and come back to fight another day, but his likelihood of losing was even higher than that of Reggie Strickland, and if anything, he was no "Spoiler."
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Some say a "tomato can" is a guy who is picked because he has
no chance of winning, but he looks good doing it. Maybe so, but
tomato can, paid punching bags, tanker, pasty, stiff, bum, or palooka
are derogatory terms that show disrespect for those who risk their
lives entertaining the fans, and I refuse to use such terms.
However, some on the lowest level of the quality tier often play the
role of designated loser–and ‘loser" is not meant here in a pejorative
sense. Perhaps opponent is a better word. These are fighters
who have a high predictability and likelihood of losing and, as such,
can be matched for that purpose. Quite simply, they lose far more
fights than they win. Some even say their sole purpose is to provide
fighters that are more promising a chance to pad their records and
enhance their careers.
While club fighters have a gambler’s chance to win, those who are
matched to lose are so matched because if the number of their losses
is divided by the number of their total fights, the resultant percentage
is usually high. And numbers don’t lie. Yet, every time they enter the
ring, they are by definition noble and courageous. No fighter dreams
of lacing up to soak up punishment. Let there be no doubt of that. No
one goes in there with the intention to lose–at least I don’t believe
that. Of course, there are the occasional "the fix is in" fights, but this
is not about that. This is about mismatches or fighters who engage in
them; it’s not about rigged fights– and the distinction is essential.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Wow
This is the first time we’ve had this problem with italics
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Everything one the other thread was yelling. Now we are all talking very sly about this subject.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Sly? Say more
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
No I don’t want to start trouble on Christmas.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
hahahahahahah
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
BTW Merry Fucking Christmas Ted, you legend you.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
lmfao
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Same to you and everyone else. BTW, have you ever noticed how I come out full bore after the blokes and mates have gone to bed.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Yes I have noticed.
What the hell is keeping you up? What is her name???
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Kentuck Derby Pie made by my young wife, Holly. It contains, burbon, pecans, Karo
syrup, sugar, butter, flour, eggs, and some other stuff. Unreal. Very close to Heaven and definitly a part of my last meal at PARCHMAN FARM.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Ted, two years ago, at this exact day and time, I had a one punch knockout on the corner of Spring and Mulberry. Big, fat ruskie who took a slug at me outside a liquor store. I am not sure if that was my retirement fight or not, since I have been very peaceable since.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
That might just have been my personal 'Exchange of the Year'.
You, lcollins1, fat Russians and ’jrok’s rules of etiquette’.
Comedy gold.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Sorry: 'jrok's rules of chivalry'.
Most fight fans would not spend a dime to watch Van Gogh paint 'Sunflowers', but they would fill Yankee Stadium to see him cut off his ear. (Bill Nack)
Look the point is that a journeyman, a tomato can/bum, an "opponent", and a professional loser are all very different. A professional loser is especially different. Sedrick Fields, from what I could gather, might be a "professional loser."
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Sedreck Fields, I mean.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
jrok, you miss my point. I don't use the term Tomato Can. Never have and never will. Some fighters are
on a low level. Others are a tad higher (opponents perhaps), still others are professional losers such as the UK Centurions. Others like Page are Gate Keepers. Others are fringe contenders, Others are contenders, There are degrees, levels. From champ to bottom tier, That works just fine for me. But calling the guys on the bottom, bums, can, etc does not work for me. I don’t begrudge others for doing itt. It’s like hunting, I don’t criticize others for doing it; it’s just not my cup of tea..
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I don’t call anyone bums… but I know what it means when someone says it.
I don’t attach anything negative to “journeyman.” In way, we are all journeymen, unless we come upon great success and riches.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Oh God no. Journeyman is not bad at all.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Baldomir was “obscure” because he was from another country just like the guy who recently fough Judah and who got screwed by the decision. Baldimir was a solid contender coming in.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I agree...
It’s similar to Mexican, Filipinos, Thai and Japanese fighters, who make their debuts at a ridiculously young age, collect a lot of early career losses but end up on the world stage in their prime. Orlando Salido, Humberto Soto Cristobal Cruz are some examples that spring to mind.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
Cristobal Cruz was another guy who I remember being perturbed when he was labeled a journeyman. That label, I firmly believe, is the sole reason why he dropped the decision to Zahir Raheem.
Another personal favorite
The guy has very little by way of skills, but absurd stamina.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
The word 'journeyman' comes from the French word journee, meaning the period of one day; this refers to their right to charge a fee for each day's work.
NOT a bum.
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 23, 2010 10:56 PM EST reply actions
But even some guys who get in the ring are less than journeymen
Guys who don’t make it a career (or even a regular thing), or guys who don’t bother to really learn what they’re doing because they’re literally just there to collect the paycheck.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Sorry is it's already been mentioned...
But did anyone say ‘taxi driver’.
JCC’s record is full of them.
Mostly in Mexico
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Just for a little clarification
The term Journeyman comes from “Journeymen’s societies”, which were well established in 16th Century Britain, and the term is first documented as being used in the 14th Century.
Per James Fulcher, Senior Lecturer in Sociology at the University of Leicester; “They varied in skill but were commonly craftsmen who had completed an apprenticeship but not yet acquired sufficient skill and experience to become a master.”
The word ‘journeyman’ comes from the French word journee, meaning the period of one day; this refers to their right to charge a fee for each day’s work.
This is partially true, with the term literally meaning day – labourer.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
A Journeyman has a cerain meaning among certain crafts in America.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Care to elaborate?
That seemed a touch on the overly cryptic side.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 26, 2010 6:11 AM EST up reply actions
Huh? In those craft trades--which are unique to this country- you have apprentices, journeymen, and craftsmen.
It’s a progression based normally on time in job. Simple as that. A journeyman is in the middle. More skilled than an apprentice who, by definition, is still learning, but not as skille (yet) as the Craftsman who earns top dollar. This is an oversimplification but I suspect you will get it. Sometime, it;s just apprentice and Journeyman.
How what I said was Crypti is, well, overly cryptic
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Ah
That’s all fairly obvious, I presumed that you knew of some alternative secondary meaning, one that I was not privy to.
As in, “Seamstress has a certain meaning amongst certain circles”.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 26, 2010 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
Well if it was so obvious, why didn't you say so in the first place?
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I would ask you the same question, Mr Sares
But we appear to be missing each other’s points, or something.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 26, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
Oh, I think I get your point allright.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
But I'll repeat mine one last time. The journeyman as it is used in U.S. Labor history is a good analogy/comaprison to
the “journeyman” as that trem is used in boxing.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Uhuh...
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 26, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Brilliant response. Learn that at Starbucks, did you?
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I didn't know that we were having an argument
But if you feel compelled to insult me for the 40 hours a week that I work at Starbucks to pay for University, then feel free.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 26, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
Uhuh
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Do you not feel that such discourse on your part
Is somewhat provocative and petty? especially seeing as I have been civil throughout.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 26, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions
I feel it is not necessary for me to have the last word.
I also feel that if someone is capable of dishing it out as in “uhuh,” they should be able to take it as in “uhuh.” What part of that do you find confusing, matey?
The word cryptic started this bullshit. I didn’t use it. The issue is how does one define journeyman. I defined on more than one post. How do you define it? Likely we define it the same way. In the UK, my experience with the term was that a journeyman would often be called “useful.” Stefy Bull might be close. Michael Gomez.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Michael Gomez.might be a prime example.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
You seem determined to fight
Sorry, I’m not interested.
/Last post in this little exchange
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 26, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
I just gave you two Brit examples and you say I want to fight.
wtf. Don’t get your way and you go off in a huff. I gave you the out for agoood exchange and you pissed it away. Adios.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Petty maybe, provacative, God no.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
for example, here from Wikipedia
In the USA licensing requirements for construction work are controlled by local building officials. Typically, certain types of electrical work are only permitted to be performed by a Journeyman or Master electrician. The requirements for becoming a journeyman or master electrician, and the types of work they are permitted to do, vary between individual states; however, there are often interstate reciprocity agreements. Not all states offer a statewide journeyman or master electrician license, and the license may be limited to the county or city level.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
This issue has been around for centuries, but the US like most other countries has its own version.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
The point is that it's not a bad analogy to boxing. Guys like Bradley are top craftsman.
Guys like Alavrez are fats becoming journeyman, albeit at a young age. Guys like Solomon are still apprentices but on the way up.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
fast
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
I didn't know that american usage of the term is what we're discussing here. This is not just a reply to you, Lord Ted, BTW
The origin of the word journeyman is from the French, as I stated much ealier. It refers to a craftsman being legally premitted to charge a day’s fee for his work. That doesn’t make him a day labourer. It makes him a craftsman. BUT,. not a master craftsman. All of these terms origainated in Europe – mainly because America’s history only started around a couple of centuries ago and, contrary to popular public American opinion, that ain’t a lot.
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 26, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
The things that he said.
America’s history only started around a couple of centuries ago and, contrary to popular public American opinion, that ain’t a lot.
This made me smile; my local pub is older than the USA.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 26, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Note: I got my transaltion/terms a little confused, Randy
The term does literally mean day – labourer, but only literally.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 26, 2010 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
So is my house!!
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 26, 2010 7:40 PM EST up reply actions
Yep, since 1776.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Who said this?
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
It's what I was discussing and I believe I noted that it might mean different things to different countries.
Helps to read the entire posts. Look at the word “git.” In the U’S , it means get somewthing with a tad of rural to it. It the UK, well, you git my meaning. lol
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
Git in English (i.e. proper) English means something else entirely!
Heheheheh!! ;)
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Dec 26, 2010 8:15 PM EST up reply actions
The bastard of a bastard
I believe.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Dec 27, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
“Writing about blue-collar folks is something I’ve been doing right from the start. It’s a world I know pretty well. I like most of these folks quite a bit.”
— Richard Russo
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.
The cutie is another classification that warrants definition.
I don't take personal insults well. My wires are such so that when it happens, i'm not going to put on head gear, lace up the gloves and put in the mouthpiece. I'm going to drop the gloves and just let the adrenaline take off.

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