Barry McGuigan wrote an article for the Mirror pleading for Edwin Valero to get out of the ring, and for boxing to stop overlooking the serious brain injury he suffered earlier in life. The same injury is the reason he is only licensed by one state in the US: Texas.
"It was not until the New York State scan that the extent of his injuries were revealed. The fact that he had a traumatic brain injury, a tear inside the cranium in the most vulnerable part of the brain, means he should never box again in my view. That is a devastating conclusion to reach for such a talented fighter but not as desperate as the consequences might be of fighting on."
With so many in and around boxing so concerned about fighter safety (which they should be), does the Valero situation seem like a strange oversight to you? I myself have mentioned it a few times when talking about Valero, but I'll admit I'm guilty of almost ignoring it myself.
What say you?
over 2 years ago
Scott Christ
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I Read
an article on a website the other day(can’t remember which) and they just briefly mentioned the motorbike accident while reciting Valero’s career like it was in the past nand not a big deal now.
It has occured to me before that surely if it has already happened there is a good chance it can happen again.Mind you,i don’t know anything about brain injuries or how the braiin heals,etc.
If there is even a small chance of a recurrence i would definitely want to see him retire,even though i am starting to think he could be a big player soon.
I suppose that is why almost all the commissions in America have him banned from fighting.
I don't really think anyone, other than a brain surgeon, can really claim to have an informed opinion on the chances of it happening again.
I think the real problem is that in a sport where the risk of death is unusually and unsettlingly high, it’s surely downright wrong to send in a fighter whose potential to be seriously harmed is greater than it should be.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Feb 14, 2010 6:31 PM EST up reply actions
The brain is odd.
It doesn’t heal like other parts of the body, where scar tissue buildup is the eventual conclusion of traumatic repair. There’s not a lot of room for extra tissue in the cranial cavity to begin with, but more importantly our bodies simply don’t know how to repair nerve tissue damage, which is why all the stem-cell research talk gets so much focus.
Instead of healing, and making a scar like with any other tissue in the body (skin, muscle, bone, heart, etc..) the damaged area of forms a clot in the immediate aftermath to stop the bleeding. This clot basically doesn’t go anywhere, ever. Very small amounts are reabsorbed into the body, but mostly it remains in a semi-gelatinous state for the remainder of a person’s life. The biggest fear is that this wet, usually weak clot can easily be torn from its surface, which of course causes the brain to begin bleeding..again.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Feb 14, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
You sound very well informed! Not going to pretend I really understand (I’m taking English Lit, no time for Biology!), but are you basically suggesting that Valero is fighting with a real risk of injury?
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Feb 14, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions
Well, keep in mind that I'm an RN and not a brain surgeon,
but the short answer is yes, compared to his ‘healthy’ peers (fighters who have not experience this level of traumatic brain injury in the past), he is at increased risk of developing severe complications from repeated impacts like those experienced in boxing.
Now, the caveat is that we don’t know how much of an increase. It could be significant, in the +50% range, or it could be relatively insignificant. I wouldn’t be able to diagnose it even with the films and scan results, but apparently the Texas Athletic Commission feels it’s the latter and not the former. We all know that Texas has the worst overall AC for high-profile fight destinations, but they still employ specialists who are better at what they do than 80% of competitors in their fields.
Long story short; if it were an obviously impending failure, Texas wouldn’t have licensed him. It’s apparently in the ‘personal judgment’ zone of medical diagnosis, which means nobody really knows one way or the other, but the other high-profile commissions don’t want his potential injury marring their records.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Thanks, that's really interesting.
Just furthers the notion that the Texas commission is BS.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Feb 14, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
One thing to keep in mind is that the recommendations made to AC's
are generally by experienced, top-of-their-field brain surgeons. These are the same brain surgeons who occasionally won’t operate on a tumor that is certain to kill you, because the surgery might kill you. They’re can be preoccupied with covering their backside, and lean towards accepting cases which will further their reputations. This creates kind of an anti-healer mentality, where they cherry-pick many of the cases they deal with, rather than having to deal with all different kinds of traumatic injuries to deal with and accept the results for what they are.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying these surgeons are anything less than superb at what they do, and they do provide a wonderful service to those in need. The problem is, they sometimes get too focused on how a particular patient would affect their record, rather than worrying about the patient’s life/livelihood and doing their best even if the chance of success is small.
Let me reiterate; I’m not saying these guys are cold-hearted or even bad medical officers. What I’m saying is, unlike an ER trauma surgeon, these guys actually get to pick and choose their cases (to a degree) and live in a world of prestige amongst peers. Therefore, their recommendations can sometimes be tainted by this almost unique mindset among medical professionals. A guy like Valero might be straddling the line of ‘acceptable patient’ for some of these guys.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Rec'd
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
Young Ali died after 5 months in a coma from brain injuries suffered in the McGuigan fight. I remember reading about the affect this had on Barry, his concerns for Valero are close to the heart. Edwin’s playing Russian Roulette every time he climbs in there, and yeah I too am guilty of overlooking the point because I enjoy watching him fight.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
You know, I honestly only 'care' that he's been honestly and completely informed
of the dangers associated with what he does. If he has been, and chooses this path for his life, then I have nothing but growing respect for the guy.
It’s one thing for a person, any of us for example, to contemplate that the lump under our armpit might be cancerous and could conceivably be fatal, but it’s quite another thing to be a world-class fighter and know, truly KNOW that every time you step in the ring it’s quite possible it will be the last thing you do in your life.
Me, I’ve got to say that if I had his talents, and I was able to make enough money to elevate my family in a meaningful way, I would absolutely risk mortal injury to pursue what can only be described as a living dream, that being to hold a world-recognized position of prestige among the greatest athletes and competitors in the human species. There’s real value in that, more value than (in my opinion) a life eating nachos and watching said competitors go at each other on my TV.
If they would let me fight, I would absolutely fight. And I would have no regrets if it ended up costing me my life. At some point we need to be concerned about the fighter’s wishes as well as the need for safety. This post isn’t aimed at you Goatsnake. You just brought up a point which I think is generally correct, but we often forget about the humans who put on the gear and risk their lives to entertain us. They don’t just do what they do for money. They do it because it’s what they love.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
by misterjonez on Feb 14, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I agree wholeheartedly. I put my poor mum through years of hell in my pursuit of boxing glory. She understood that boxing was something I had to do. Every fighter puts their life on the line every single time they step in the ring. For Edwin Valero to continue fighting after a brain injury speaks volumes of his undeniable warrior spirit. I only wish him good luck and success.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Having just gone through a subdural hematoma, my feeling is that if a fighter “fails” a scan or MLR, I need to know what "failure means. In this case, it means a tear inside the cranium and that is is more than enough enough for me to agree with Barry. I am a super Valero fan, but messing with brain issues is something you just don’t do.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Feb 14, 2010 10:32 PM EST reply actions
If Valero knows what the risks are and still wishes to support his family in this line of work then Im ok with that, but I do have concerns. If the worst did happen during a fight, it would ruin the opponent menatly. I couldn’t imagine living with something like that hanging over my head, and continue doing boxing.
"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Ali
All Great Posts Here.
Especially from Misterjonez….You have educated me more about this.
Great respect for Valero but i do think that sometimes boxers need protecting form themselves.
I've heard this argued before
and the bottom line is—and will always be—that Valero, if he’s allowed to fight, is going to make his own decision. We all have made decisions (especially when we were young) that we’ve regretted when the full payment came due; in this case, full payment could well = death. As fans, we can either watch Valero fight or choose not too.
by Don From Prov on Feb 15, 2010 9:17 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Good point, Prov. It’s really up to him, but what about Mesi?
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Feb 15, 2010 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
This was my intended point.
I would further say that no-one, not McGuigan, not a sanctioning body, not a state commission, has the right to tell Edwin Valero what level of risk is acceptable. It’s his life, and I really take umbrage with people telling other people (or trying to) what to do, how to live, what is right for them. McGuigan has no idea what it’s like being Edwin valero, and has NO right to try to make a life-changing decision for him.
I see Barry’s point, but I think he needs to wind his neck in. He had his career, and that wasn’t exactly risk-free, who the hell does he think he is trying to deprive someone else of their career?
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
A commission absolutely has the right to not sanction a fighter who can’t pass a medical exam.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Feb 15, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
Not in an ideal world.
There are hundreds of stories about doctors being wrong, people not only walking after being ‘paralysed’ but running the London Marathon…..
Point is, it’s HIS risk to take. If he is happy with it, and his opponents are happy with it, then why the hell not? IT’s not like Barry McGuigan is taking a risk every time Valero gets in the ring.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
What if he's not educated about it?
What if he’s received bad advice from doctors that say there is no more risk than anyone else?
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
In that case, I'd be pissed.
But I’d be seriously surprised if he isn’t aware of the risks, both in absolute terms and also in terms of the increase in risk for him compared to other boxers, as far as this can be quantified.
Again, if he is aware of the risks, I firmly believe it’s his choice to make.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
As someone whose job it is to make sure people follow risk disclosure laws
You’d be surprised…
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Can you elaborate?
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Either way, the line of commenting is veering dangerously close to political discussion
Which is probably why the thread is winding some folks up. Comments are locked on this one.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
What? I'm trying to actually discuss this!!
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Or not
Evidently, I can’t lock comments on a fanshot.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I ask again;
Can you elaborate?
I don’t see that one guy throwing insults is a reason to close a thread.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
What you said came off to me as a pro-libertarian argument
more than anything else. I think that’s why someone took personal umbrage to it. The way it was presented was dangerously close to political discussion, which as SC likes to note, is not a topic of discussion here.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I know nothing of politics.
I just don’t think Barry McGuigan has the right to tell Edwin Valero how to earn a living.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Especially since Valero has proved himself REALLY good at what he does.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
The commision surely has every right to tell
boxers how to make a living, or not as the case may be. It’s their job after all!
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 15, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
we tell people “what level of risk is acceptable” all the time. Seat belts, medications, food, surgeries, and often there arranged in an agency just like a sanctioning body. Boxing’s not a right.
We protect people from themselves. You can take issue with that overall perspective, but don’t construe it like it is just unbelievable that this once in a life-time type of paternalism exists here and only here. Not true.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
You don't think a guy has a right to decide how he makes his living?
This is a curious point.
What about those guys that walk on big steel beams 20 storeys up? That’s risky, one mistake can kill you, etc etc…
How do you draw the line?
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
He can't make a living selling sex either
He’s not ACTUALLY a long-haired prostitute…
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Watch it, you'll have Barrios on here calling you names if you carry on....
Right, but selling sex = illegal, right?
Boxing = legal.
If something is legal, then surely it should be someone’s right to take whatever risks are inherent in that trade, and earn a living that way?
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
there's three categories
Legal, Licensed and Illegal.
Something that’s licensed is illegal, unless you get a license to do it.
Boxing is licensed. If you try boxing without a license, you can get arrested and sent to jail. Historically, boxing was illegal until some places started forming commissions.
Texas just happens to be much more laid back about licensing people to box than most states. Valero will never be licensed to fight in New York, California or New Jersey, period, because of this problem. He’ll probably be refused a license in Nevada if he applies for one there, although it’s no longer a non judgment there. Texas just happens to let almost anyone fight there. It’s no coincidence that when Arum tried to get Margarito reinstated, he went to Texas. Or that Tommy Morrison, who has a communicable blood disease, was able to get a license in Texas and West Virginia but hasn’t tried anywhere else.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
All that said
There very well may be some good science behind Valero, I just don’t know. Japan has very stringent licensing standards, and he had no problem fighting over there.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
As I alluded to above,
I think Valero’s injury history falls squarely into the ‘cover your backside if at all doubtful’ range for the medical specialists making their recommendations to the AC’s. I would guess that yes, Texas employs far less strict guidelines, but for sure if his injury were a ticking time-bomb (as is widely feared here and elsewhere, with good reason) then he wouldn’t be able to get a license.
I really think it’s a matter of medical opinion how severe his injury is. The Japanese medical officers thought he was ok to fight, and so do the Texas officers. I think this comes down, essentially, to NSAC not sanctioning him and the other various AC’s following suit for various reasons. Mostly it’s lack of confidence in their own observations, and fear of having it backfire, resulting in a similar popular opinion for their AC as we see towards the Texas commission.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Texas doesn't test for it
My understanding is that a Texas license is basically just a rubber stamp. Pay the licensing fee, get the license. No blood test, no eye test, no nothing.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
McGuigan
has boxed at the highest level.I would bet my house that YOU have never been in a ring in your life.McGuigan has also killed a man as a result of what happened in the ring.
You sit there in at your university computer shouting your poncey student remarks and think they actually mean something.
Every time i see a comment from you it makes me like you even less.
YOUR the one who needs to wind his neck in.
I'll take that bet.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
So, by disagreeing with my post in your own infantile and confrontational way, you imply the following:
1. Barry McGuigan has the right, nay- the RESPONSIBILITY to decide who should and should not fight, even against their own wishes, because he once particpated in a tragic fight. I await your thoughts on whether or not Chris Eubank, Nigel Benn, and Luis Resto also have this responsibility.
2. Barry McGuigan does in fact know what it’s like being Edwin Valero. Better than Valero does, in all likelihood.
3. If any one person thinks that a fighter is too much of a health risk to fight, then that negates every single opinion of every single person that says the converse. McGuigan obviously has the deciding vote, even though he has no medical expertise.
Thank you for enlightening me.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
So the way this goes; (according to you)
1. I express an opinion on the topic at hand.
2. You insult me.
3. Somehow, you insulting me, makes me infantile.
4. You come out with the equivalent of “I know you are what am I?” comment in order to disprove accusation of infantility. (Good strategy, by the way….)
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Your calling me infantile?
You need to take a look in the mirror.
That’s some lovely irony you got there. I’m not taking a side I just like irony ^^
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 15, 2010 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
The irony of this post is too pure, too brilliantly self-explanatory, for me to even do it the disservice of outlining it.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
I wouldn't dare.... ;)
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Brevity is the essence of wit
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Oscar Wilde?
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Shakespeare
12th Night
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Good work.
Sounded like a Wilde quote to me. :)
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
brevity…is wit.
Geddit???
Also I believe “brevity is the soul of wit” was Hamlet. Crafty Shakespeare with his similar quotes.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 15, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
He usually had very talkative characters say those kinds of things
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
How old are you?….20-21 i’m guessing.
If you are older than that you are just arsehole of a person.
You prove it in every post you make.
Yet another insult. Thanks for proving my above point to be true, better than I could have done.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
I know I've warned both of you before about this...
Please cease the personal attacks
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Find a personal attack I've made?
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
I do agree
on commissions properly having the right to keep a person from fighting. The line between a person’s rights and a section of society’s responsibility to set standards can be a tricky but necessary one to navigate, IMO. In retrospect, I wouldn’t have minded someone overseeing me in a moment or two of my life. My point would be that McGuigan, Matt, Chaos, Rambler, and I all have the right to our opinions, but Valero has every right to ignore all us; however, if sanctioning bodies find reason to ban Valero, well, he can’t ignore that.
There was a time when I didn’t think I’d watch any of Valero’s fights.
And there might come a night when I wished I had stuck with that decision.
I suppose my biggest issue is, if he IS sanctioned.
Whether it be by Texas or the Dark Side of the Moon, then what he is doing is legal. He is breaking no laws. Yet Barry McGuigan thinks he has the right to tell him that despite the legality and lucrative nature of his career, he should stop.
Now, I am someone who looks to take away the primary, or defining, aspect of a person and look at what else is there. Doormen make me wonder what they would be doing for a living if they weren’t such big brutes, hot but vacuous girls make me wonder exactly what age they’d be applying for their first council flat if they weren’t hot….
So, to bring this back to the point; if Valero wasn’t a really great fighter, what would he be doing? And would it pay as much? Since the answer is probably ‘No’, is it right that someone else makes a plea for him to stop doing what he is doing, despite its legality? And if he does follow McGuigan’s advice, is McGuigan going to make up the shortfall in Valero’s earnings?
Valero knows more about this than any of us, I’d guess. We’re speculating based on second and third hand information and media opinion. If he is happy to make a legal, lucrative career doing what he is great at, I defy anyone to say he doesn’t have the right to make that choice.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
If Valero does this and then dies
Expect to see a rash of changes in the law where even the more lax commissions won’t sanction someone who’s had a prior hematoma.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Also expect a lot more calls to have boxing banned
Apparently in Australia they are making actual progress with that one. Any Australians heard about this? Or was it just rumor?
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 15, 2010 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
I don't understand why your whole argument is about Barry McGuigan telling Valero not to box on?
We’ve all got an opinion, that’s Barry’s opinion and its his right to put it out there.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Feb 15, 2010 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
Brick
Theoretical situation: The boxing commission warns Valero about his condition, but Valero ignores it and fights anyways. Valero gets KO’d and the hematoma kills him. Valero’s family is now mad as all hell looking to sue anyone within striking distance. They sue the boxing commission for negligence, do they have a case?
hmmm negligence? Brick correct me if I’m wrong, but they’ll be immune from negligence. They won’t be idemnified from reckless endangerment.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
I don't know
I do corporate law. Nobody would be indemnified from anything – indemnification is a construction of contract, and there’s no contract here. Anyone can sue anyone for anything, it’s just a question of whether the case gets dismissed, and I just don’t know enough about negligence laws, which vary widely from state to state, to know whether the Valero family would have a case.
Warnings always help, but they don’t always insulate from liability. Digging back into my memories from law school, my recollection is that a warning doesn’t help if you’ve created a “death trap.” But there are a lot of factors involved here. Plus, the commission is a public instrumentality, meaning there are different standards applied to it.
That’s probably a pretty decent bar exam question (or like 1/4th of a bar exam question).
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
ok – my understanding is that agencies can get a licensee’s consent to waive negligence liability but nothing more. I think Valero’s family’d have to go bigger than negligence, which they would with all these medical records.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
Whatever the charge is, would they still have a case? If they did then I’m surprised that any commission would approve Valero to fight, even Texas. The financial liability of someone like that could potentially be quite significant.
by Waldo Rastel on Feb 15, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
May differ from state to state
You never want to be a plaintiff in Texas though. A Texas choice of law provision is one of the easiest things to strike out in any draft contract.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I suspect he would sign some kind of release. How enforceable it would be is another issue.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Feb 17, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
Man, that was some decent couterpuching in there. Not sure who got the edge. However, any one can have anopinion about whether a boxer should fight with a tear on his cranium. There are standards. If a Sacn or MRL does not meet those standards, then the issue is resolved.
Here is my take: Here is my take: Valero had a terrible motorcycle accident in 2001. He claims he was cleared to fight by doctors in his home country. Golden Boy “found” and signed Valero and then attempted to make a bout happen in NYC for him. The New York State Athletic Commission as a part of the license application in 2003, got wind of Valero’s brain-bleed in the 2001 accident. They ordered Valero to submit to additional MRI’s. Upon review of the MRI’s, in early-2004 the NYSAC denied Valero a license and listed him as Medically Suspended. All US boxing commissions recognized the NY suspension and Valero was not able to fight in the USA. In 2008, a suit was brought against the NYSAC. The suit claimed that the NYSAC had made an error — the suit argued that the commission could not suspend a license that it never issued. The suit argued that the only action legally available to the NYSAC was to deny Valero’s license. In an out-of-court settlement in 2009, the NYSAC agreed to remove the Medical Suspension and this opened the door for Valero to apply for a license in Texas — which he was granted.
That’s a legal loophole. That’s not a legitimate medical reevaluation of the situation… Shame on Texas.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Feb 15, 2010 4:40 PM EST reply actions
Everyone is entitled to their opinion about this and i respect that,although it speaks volumes that all but one of the commissions in America refuse to sanction him.
I reacted like i did because,basically i don’t care one iota for Chaos or his lack of respect and bad manners shown to a former pro who has achieved more than he ever has in boxing or ever will.
Only one refused to sanction him
And New York has a hard and fast rule – if you’ve ever had a brain bleed, you can’t get a license. They actually took the extra step with Valero of reviewing his medical records, since the brain bleed was caused out of the ring, but he didn’t pass that standard either.
That said, I know for a fact he’d be denied a license in California or New Jersey as well, and probably Nevada as well.
As for the other 45 states? Who knows. About 20 of them don’t have boxing commissions at all. And there are other states where a fair amount of boxing goes on (like Florida) that have more lax standards than the major states, but not as lax as Texas.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
his lack of respect and bad manners shown to a former pro who has achieved more than he ever has in boxing or ever will.
A greater knowledge and experience of being a professional boxer far from buys immunity from harsh coments. If it did I we would all be banned for things we have said about a certain recent heavyweight challenger, whose name I am loathe to mention.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 15, 2010 6:52 PM EST up reply actions
We all mourn when he boxer dies from injuries sustained in a fight. But what about a boxer with a pre-existing condition. What would we do if that happened? This is not a blood sport. Now I am getting really pissed off.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Feb 15, 2010 4:44 PM EST reply actions
Well,
you know that this was argued into dust on one other site. It, to my way of thinking, makes the Floyd/Manny testing wars seem minor. I agree that if Texas granted the license on a loophole and did not do any medical reevaluation of Valero, that it’s questionable—at the very least—whether or not they are fulfilling their duties in a responsible manner. It would be nice to see another state take a look at the results of and thinking by the Japanese commission and run new tests here in the United States: If New York does not = a definitive enough answer, then a definitive answer is needed. What I do know is that there are people more than willing to make money off of another person’s life—or death.
I’ve seen boxers beaten to death. I’d rather not see it again.
I don’t slow down to look at horrific automobile accidents. Why did I watch Valero fight?
I don’t know, and I’m not sure that I won’t the next time he’s on television.
Brain bleed equals no more boxing. Ebd of discussion for me.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Feb 15, 2010 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
end
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Feb 15, 2010 10:58 PM EST up reply actions
If a boxer suffers the same injury in the ring that Valero did on his bike,he wouldn’t be allowed to fight again.
Depends where
Czar Amonsot and Joe Mesi, to name two, both had the same injury and kept on fighting. They can never fight in certain jurisdictions again, but Mesi had no problem getting a license in West Virginia, and Amonsot still fights on in the Philippines.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Mesi was pre-Ali act.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Feb 17, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think that's the case
My recollection was that he was suspended in Nevada, but the maximum length of a suspension there is 2 years, so when that suspension expired, he re-applied for a license in WV, where they really don’t do much of anything.
According to Wikipedia, Ali Act passed in 2000. Mesi-Jirov was in 2004.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Valero
Complete lack of respect by chaos here .Mcguigan is a respected professional fighter who has faced these issues
Anyone want to see another brain injury that could be avoided .Valero needs protecting ..end of….Paret..Mclelland..Watson…etc lets not go there
Mcguigan is a respected professional fighter who has faced these issues
Why does this make him infallibe? I don’t feel particularly strongly one way or the other on this matter but see it as odd that disagreeing with someone who was a professional boxer is suddenly some how a reprehensible thing to do.
Maybe I’m biased, I think Chaos is a good guy who knows a lot about boxing…
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 16, 2010 4:18 AM EST up reply actions
Good post, cutman.
I think most on this site agree that there isn’t, and shouldn’t be a one-size-fits-all approach to this particular issue. What’s safe for one fighter isn’t necessarily safe for others, and what is ‘acceptable risk’ for one fighter is certainly not the same for all fighters.
Some guys fight because there’s big money and fame involved. That’s fine, of course, but those are generally the kinds of guys who would bow out at the risk of health complications. Then there are guys who fight because they were simply born that way, and it’s what they love to do..the training, the staring through the cage at the other animals snarling back at them, and the competition. For those guys, ending their career isn’t going to be as simple as it would be for the more business-focused types.
Public perception would probably tell you that Floyd Mayweather is more focused on the business/fame aspect of boxing than the actual fighting. That diminishes none of his accomplishment or ability, in fact for some it would seemingly enhance their opinion of him, since he has worked so hard and so long to accomplish something for which the innate “fire” is not as strong as for others. For a guy like that, ending his career based on injury risk would be more palatable than it would be for, say, Bernard Hopkins or (apparently) Edwin Valero. Those guys were born fighters, and the fact that they get paid to do it is almost just like icing on the cake.
I’m not saying definitively that Floyd isn’t a Born Fighter™, just that his generally accepted public image suggests he’s closer to that end of the spectrum than he is to the B-Hop end.
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
Look, what is true for the states is not necessarily true for other countries. Czar likely would not be allowed to fight here again, nor would Mesi who suffered two subdural hematomas against Jirov. Valero could probably fight in Mexico and possibly Canada and some other countries like Japan and the Philippines, but what happens in other countries is of no concern to me. What happens in the states is of utmost importance to me. Each commission or whatever state group that is set up should honor what others do. If Valero failed the Scan in NY, then Texas should honor that. AgaIn, a brain bleed equals no more bboxing insofar as I aM concerned. I am an advocate for reform first and a great fan of Valero second. Hell, we are studying the impact of concussions on HS football players, while at the same time posing a question that should be a NO BRAINER!
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Feb 17, 2010 4:38 PM EST reply actions
Pun intended!
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Feb 17, 2010 4:39 PM EST reply actions
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