Historical Giants in the Land of the Modern Giant
by John Genco on Feb 2, 2010 11:37 AM EST
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Believe it or not Big George Foreman was no taller than Muhammad Ali.
But wasn’t Big George a giant that loomed over little Muhammad. 217 pound Big George Foreman stalked tiny 210 pound Muhammad. Wait let me check those numbers again…Ok, yeah, seven pounds, the difference between a big welterweight and a small welterweight. In many divisions, not even a weight class of a difference. Somehow I must have got it wrong Big George must be much, much taller than Muhammad. But if he was that much taller and bigger, how could he only weight seven pounds more? Let me check to make sure my first sentence is really true…yeah, both are 6’3. What?????
What??? I have to ask myself. What??? You’ve got to ask yourself. And What??? am I trying to say? Now that I have you thinking with a clear mind. Now that history’s numbers are coming right down the center, straight for the place your nose used to be, before reality lands like a right from Wladimir Klitschko. That’s right! This is all in defense of Wladimir Klitschko.
Wladimir is 6’7. Four inches taller than Big George Foreman and little Muhammad. That is a bigger than the difference between Paul Williams and Winky Wright. (Did you see that fight?) Four inches often separates guards and centers in basketball.
Big George was a plump 217, at his best. No one has ever described Muhammad as shredded or ripped up. Wladimir Klitschko has never been anything but shredded. Ripped up like a "cool" pair of your jeans from the 90’s. At 245 pounds! Almost 30 pounds heavier than Big George or Muhammad. I know the fight doesn’t take place on a stage, with each combatant oiled, wearing less than bikinis. I know the fight does not end with the tale of the tape. But one man is a giant, as small as he can be, and the other two are as large as they can be, but small in comparison.
This is simply to emphasize the difference in size between, the biggest boxer of all time and really the BIGGEST boxer of his time and Wladimir Klitschko. Next time you watch an old Big George fight, watch the crispness of his punches. The sharpness of his strikes. (What you will see is the lack thereof and the looping hooks and awkward slaps.) (Yeah I said it. Watch it! Foreman’s combinations tended to turn into slaps.) Compare that, to the sharpness and crispness of "mechanical" Wladimir Klitschko.
Look at it, as it is. Not how you were told to think. Be real. Just because he is on your wall. And he was funny and clever, doesn’t mean he’ll be able to lean around while Wladimir Klitschko gets gassed. Maybe early in his career Wladimir Klitschko would have gone for it. No longer. He’s too big. He’s too long. He’s too fit. He’s "mechanical" enough to follow the game plan. For all the heat Wladimir Klitschko takes from "boxing people" and unconcerned observers, I’m sorry for your loss, but Big 6’3 George Foreman would have little to no shot, and the greatest would probably end of being just the latest to fail, trying to solve the mechanical Wladimir Klitschko.
So please, the next time someone says they want a real heavyweight champion. Someone like Mike Tyson…5’11 Mike Tyson…you know where I’m going with this…
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I actually like the Klitschkos
But I think that Foreman kills either of them as does Ali.
Foreman KOs Wlad in 1
Ali KOs Wlad in 7
Foreman KOs Vitali in 8
Ali wins TKO on cuts stoppage over Vitali in round 6
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
I laughed a great deal
Have a rec!
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 2, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
I have no problem with Klit brothers. They are in fantastic shape. It is the other chubby bums of that division that are holding it back. When they realize they need to do more than be giant maybe it will pick up.
Also, as tired as it is, if Dwight Howard (and chums) were in a different sport it’d be him we are talking about.
Foreman
I think it would be a physical mismatch with foreman and either brother. I can’t see foreman making it past baby brother’s jab, and vitaly would be just too athletic. Foreman won’t be able to get to either of them.
I still think both would take out Ali and Ali would not be able to compete with the era’s super heavyweights. Lewis, Bowe included, but with Ali I do give him a chance a “greatness chance” if you will.
As for howard, I see the point, but he can’t shoot a foul shot, hook shot, or jump shot. I could not picture him having the fortitude to develop skills in the ring when he can’t develop any on the court. But of course at 6’11 you are talking about a different type of animal all together.
I put Wlad’s jab as the very best in the world right now.
This post sums up the reasons I rate Lewis as the best heavyweight ever.
I said that to a guy about a year ago and his answer was, “Marciano would have killed him”.
I showed him a chart (which I will endeavour to find and link) which showed the respective heights and weights of all the heavyweight champions through history.
I pointed to Marciano’s stats, and said to my friend, “How can you honestly tell me that a guy who was smaller than Calzaghe was would have beaten Lewis?”
I do not argue that Lewis was the best P4P fighter ever. I don’t even argue that he was the best HEAVYWEIGHT ever, P4P…. but H2H I firmly believe that Lennox would have the beating of any heavyweight, ever.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Fair point. On the other hand, if Lewis had grown up with 1940s nutrition and training methods, he would have been smaller too. And vice versa.
Conjecture though....
The facts are that Lennox is/was the size he is/was. The same goes for all the others. Adding too many variables into an equation will only end up with us working out that actually, Ivan Calderon is/could have been the best heavyweight ever.
If Foreman had got hit by a bus, we’d all be cooking on Larry Holmes Grills instead… ;)
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
BTW- the link WAS here....
http://www.ibhof.com/ibhftape.htm
But it now doesn’t work. I’m still trying to find the chart….
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Much appreciated.... :)
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Sure
And if guys in the 50’s didn’t have same-day weigh-ins, half the guys at heavy would have been light heavies.
Heck, go back further, and there’s NO WAY someone like Lewis survives a 20 to 25 round fight. His body just isn’t built for that kind of endurance either.
A lot of variables in play. Under modern rules, Lewis as H2H #1 or #2 sounds pretty right to me. Under old rules, who knows.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Curious....
Lewis as #1 OR #2? Who would be your other possible #1? Not arguing, just interested. :)
I’d love to have seen some of those guys fight Lewis over 25 rounds…. I don’t think most would have heard the bell to start to fourth. You’re right though (or a better way to say it would be, “I agree with you…”, so you could be right, or we could both be wrong…), if someone did manage to last with him for 13+ rounds, he would then be in trouble.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Ali would be the other
Better movement than anyone else, world class chin, quicker than anyone, big enough not to get bullied too badly by the big guys.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I thought Ali would be your pick.
Although, I think Ali would have a really tough time with Vitali, and I think Lennox would have been too big and strong for him.
Then again, I think Ali was/is over-rated drastically (Yeah, I said it….). Every time I hear someone refer to him as the Greatest, it reminds me of the Ed Byrne quote from Pedantic and Whimsical;
“[on LL Cool J’s name] He obviously went to a school where you get to pick your own fucking nickname, he did. “I shall be ‘LL Cool J’, ‘Ladies Love Cool James’”. “Nice one, God I wish I’d thought of that one for myself.” If I’d gone to his school, my nickname probably would have been ‘LL Nice E B T G P H A A F’, which stands for ‘Ladies Like Nice Ed But They Generally Prefer Him As A Friend’." (from Wikiquote)
By which I mean: Who the hell gets to pick their own nickname? Idiots and professional boxers, sometimes wrapped up in the same package. Ali got to pick his own nickname, it was HIM who called himself the Greatest, the press caught onto it and a self-perpetuating legend was born.
In the same way as everyone calling LL Cool J by that name is only calling him a name he made up for himself, every single person who calls Ali the Greatest is doing exactly that, too.
Anyway, this wasn’t supposed to be a rant, so I’ll leave it there. :)
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
To be fair Ali was a genuinely amazing boxer
And deserves to be considered. It can be easy to backlash against popular opinion when it is often misguided or just plain wrong but I don’t beleive this to be one of those cases.
Also he did say himself that Sugar Ray was actually the greatst boxer of all time in his opinion but it seems very few people were listening, maybe they payed less attention because he wasn’t shouting or insulting people!
Oh and
I think Lennox would have been too big and strong for him.
Maybe but Foreman was really, really strong too and we all know what happened there. Ok very different fighters but it’s still a valid point if we are only considering strength.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 7, 2010 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe but Foreman was really, really strong too and we all know what happened there. Ok very different fighters but it’s still a valid point if we are only considering strength
It’s funny; I’m pretty I know what you’re gonna say to counter this, because I would probably use the same thing! I disagree with myself after reading my posts to often…
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 7, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
*too
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 7, 2010 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
LOL
So I shouldn’t bother then?
:)
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Yup!
I still think Ali would beat Lewis though ^^
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 8, 2010 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
You're quite unwell....
The only thing that ever beat Lewis was a massive, one-off, concussive shot.
Ali, for all his attributes, did not have that sort of concussive power.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
I'm confident that he would get a points win
Or a stoppage on cuts.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 8, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
Except that Lewis never had a problem with cuts
and never got outboxed by ANYONE…..
I’m just playing… I can see that side completely. I just think Lennox was, well, Lennox.
Lennox had a massively underrated jab, in my eyes, when he used it (which he only did properly when he felt at threat). His right hand was massive, and his footwork was fucking awesome for a guy who was so big. I genuinely think people see Lewis as this lumbering, Primo Carnera type fighter, but he was really quick for a heavyweight.
As I said before, Ali beats the shit out of Lewis P4P, but H2H I think Lennox would stop him in the mid-rounds. I could of course be wrong… :)
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
Completely agree, that jab wasn’t just a range-finder, it was an absolute weapon. When Lennox was in a rhythm with it, he was simply untouchable. Because he was so big, people assumed he was lumbering, but he was genuinely far quicker than people realised. You’ve only got to watch clips of the early Lewis, when he weighed in the mid-220s, to see how good his footwork and handspeed was. Adding on weight did not make him lumbering by any means.
Fighting Ali, I see Lennox winning a decision. Fighting Foreman, Lennox gets KTFO.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Feb 13, 2010 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
Greatest or best
I think of a lot the aurgument comes from people looking at this from two perspectives. One…who is the greatest Heavy ever. And who is the best ever.
To me those are two different things. Like in football. the 72 undefeated Dolphins are the greatest team ever, but not nearly the best. There have been at least 10 or so super bowl teams that would have blown them off the field. The best might be a Steeler team or the Bears with McMahon.
For heavys the greatest is Marciano. He retired as an undefeated heavy champion. In interest of honesty he is my favorite fighter, but he could not have stayed in the ring with a Lewis or a Klitschko. I hate to say it but it is true. I don’t like Lewis and I hate to say it also, but up to this point, he might have been the best.
for ali, he lost to frazier who was basicaly the same size as Marciano. but Ali has a case as the greatest because of the level of his wins. Ali’s greatest asset was also marciano’s and I believe it dwarfs every other heavy’s is their heart.
for ali, he lost to frazier who was basicaly the same size as Marciano.
I feel that you are perhaps placing too much improtance in the size of a fighter. From what ic an see Marciano would have been far too slow to really get to Ali. He would get jabbed, and lead righted, to death.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Feb 5, 2010 4:12 PM EST up reply actions
"Lead righted"
And a new verb is born…. :)
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
I'll even go a little further..
but particularly on the side of Vitali rather than Wladimir.
Imagine you adjust relative heights, so that instead of 6’7" in the 2000’s, Vitali is 6’2" in the 50’s or whatever and 6’5" in the 70’s. Essentially, I’m saying give the Klitchko’s the same height advantage they have today against the greats of the past. It’s still significant, but not the ridiculous advantage of facing 5’11" guys at 6’ 7".
Even with that adjustment, I think Vitali is a very, very difficult out for anyone. Wladimir, I could still see a Frazier, Holyfield or Tyson getting in on a 6’ 4 Wladimir and taking his heart or his chin. Ditto Marciano on a 6’ 1" Wlad.
But Vitali, where’s the weakness? I’m not saying he is unbeatable, but I don’t think he gets enough credit for being as close to unbeatable as he’s looked. Basically, he more than fought even with the guy deemed all time #1 on this thread, at that guy’s actual weight.
I guess all I’m saying is that Vitali needs to get some credit, not as an all time “great” (because that takes the right opponents, fights and circumstances), but as one of the all-time best heavyweights.
Interesting. Do you think he’s a Hall of Famer then? (On the theory that the bar for Hall of Famer is slightly below the bar for All-Time Great.)
I would say not yet
But part of my rationale is that there are already disproportionately too many HWs in the Hall. He wouldn’t be the worst heavyweight there, but he probably wouldn’t be in the top half either.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
H2H, I think Vitali is trouble for anyone, ever.
In terms of legacy, P4P, whatever, you’re probably right.
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
In that case, doesn’t that mean there’s no hope for him? It doesn’t seem like there’s much else he can do to improve his standing, given what’s out there for him these days.
Ther might be
Just because I would vote one way, doesn’t mean that the people who actually have votes wouldn’t vote the other.
Unless someone beats Wlad and he beats that person, however, there isn’t much Vitali can do to enhance his legacy at this point, IMO. Maybe if he beats Haye and Adamek it helps, but historians probably won’t give him a ton of credit for beating a couple of guys who are naturally so much smaller than him. Had he actually faced Rahman one of the 4 times he was supposed to, it would have helped him a lot.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Yep.
There was a time, back in the day, when a win over Rahman wouldn’t have looked too bad on a guy’s record.
Of course, by the time Wlad got to him, that time had not only been and gone, but was sending post-cards from a long bloody way away….
Some people are acting like Pacquiao should be expected to have just gone, "Yeah sure, let’s do something I’ve never done before because your dad made some dumbass baseless comment."
(SC, 28/12/09; http://www.badlefthook.com/2009/12/27/1221143/mayweather-pacquiao-update-bob#comments)
The only thing I could see to really improve his legacy..
is if guys like Chris Arreola and/or the remaining opponents of Vitali’s career have illustrious post-Klitschko careers. Unfortunately, the heavyweight division is so thin, and you have two Klitschko’s, so guys are pushed into Klitschko fights before they can establish themselves as “really good”.
But if Arreola has a wonderful heavyweight career, that will enhance Vitali’s legacy. I guess you could say the same for Sam Peter. It’s tough to imagine anyone else having a nice run at the top of the division, and even with those two it seems like a big long shot (because of their weight).
That said, I would probably tend toward voting Vitali into the Hall of Fame, because I have to give him the benefit of the doubt – so far it looks like the only way to beat him is to injure him. Wlad is a tougher case – you can argue that he is vulnerable, and that he would have had much less success against a stronger crop of heavyweights.
by thefightnut.com on Feb 9, 2010 8:52 AM EST up reply actions
Foreman vs.
either brother is interesting. First, many of us imagine a George Foreman who never quite existed: The original, young George, clubbed most everyone into submission and was a monster, but he was a very flawed monster who fought tight and didn’t pace himself—he more than “got tired.” The older, more composed and measured Foreman did not have much of a KO % against top fighters, and although the twain might have met if George had continued on after the Young fight with better training—didn’t happen. Still, and with maybe a composite Foreman in my mind, I’d say that neither Wlad or Vitali fight on or off the ropes or in corner very well—and I think that they’d get walked there (both Foremans could cut off the ring, IMO). I don’t see Wlad as having a great chin or psyche: I think he gets stopped. Vitali does seem to have the chin and psyche, but his flailing arm punches against Johnson don’t bode well for time he would have spent on the ropes with George.
Again, though, I sometimes see a composite George who never quite was.
Here is a P.S. "size" thought:
The young George Foreman was a lot bigger than Gene Tunney, but based on George’s struggles with Gregorio Peralta, I’d expect Tunney to box his ears off.
A lot of things I expect, don’t happen.
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