Report: James Toney signs multi-fight deal with UFC
by Scott Christ on Mar 3, 2010 5:29 PM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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According to Five Ounces of Pain, UFC has signed James Toney to a multi-fight deal. The former middleweight, super middleweight and cruiserweight titleholder and longtime heavyweight contender has no set date for a debut with the world's biggest MMA company. Rumors have centered on Toney facing Randy Couture.
Toney (72-6-3, 44 KO) has had a history of conditioning problems, but they're mostly relative to the fact that he's 5'10" with a 72" reach. His highest-ever fighting weight was 237 against Hasim Rahman in 2006, and he got down to 217 1/2 for his last fight, which took place in September 2009 against club fighter Matthew Greer.
Toney's recent boxing career has been rather rough going. He still talks up his win over Evander Holyfield, which came in 2003. He won the WBA heavyweight title in 2005, but the result was changed to a no-contest when Toney failed his post-fight drug test in New York.
Here's his recent run for those interested that might not know much about "Lights Out":
- 2006-03-18, Hasim Rahman, D-12: I thought Toney deserved the win if anyone did, but this awful fight was scored a draw.
- 2006-09-02, Samuel Peter, L-SD-12: Many felt Toney won this fight.
- 2007-01-06, Samuel Peter, L-UD-12: Nobody felt Toney won this fight. Maybe Toney.
- 2007-05-24, Danny Batchelder, W-SD-10: Journeyman Batchelder and Toney both failed their post-fight drug tests.
- 2008-07-16, Hasim Rahman, NC-3: Rahman quit due to injury. Originally ruled a TKO-3 for Toney, but rightly changed by the California commission.
- 2008-12-13, Fres Oquendo, W-SD-12: Only judge Tony Crebs at ringside had his glasses on, scoring it 116-110 for Oquendo, which was about what I saw. The first Toney-Peter fight was close. The Rahman-Toney draw was pretty close. This one I feel was a true robbery.
- 2009-09-12, Matthew Greer, W-TKO-2: Only notable for the fact that Toney came in at his lightest weight in six years.
That's what UFC is signing. A faded, 41-year-old boxer whose mouth has long surpassed his in-ring ability, and who hasn't beaten a decent opponent in four years, not counting the Oquendo scoring debacle. He's also failed two drug tests in the last five years.
By no means is James Toney a bad boxer, even now. He's still got the sort of frustrating style that can give a lot of guys problems, and there are guys in my own boxing heavyweight top 10 I'd give him a very good chance to beat.
But will he translate to MMA? It's unlikely. I don't think he's that guy.
It's also hard to ignore that Toney has flat-out run out of boxing paydays. Part of it, as his promoter Dan Goossen says, is that a lot of guys want nothing to do with James. I buy that. Again, he's still got annoying skills, plus he's not selling to TV networks anymore, isn't worth a lot of money, and has been largely out of the spotlight since the Peter rematch. With no avenues open in boxing at age 41, UFC really might be worth a crack for James.
HT: Bloody Elbow
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Does anyone see James Toney developing serious wrestling and jiu-jitsu skills in his 40s?
Unless there’s some kind of off-the-record agreement with Dana White that nobody is allowed to take him down and submit him, Toney is going to get humiliated and, frankly, make boxing look bad.
I will say that I’m not interested in MMA and know very little about it, but I just can’t see this being anything but a disaster.
Agreed
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Mar 3, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
No version of James Toney would have been good for MMA
Even peak conditioned Toney at 168, I can’t think of a boxer who has a worse skill set to translate over to MMA than Toney. He ever tries to do what made him great as a boxer, he’d get taken down in a heartbeat.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Out of interest
Who do you think has/had the skills to translate well? I would be tempted to say Roy simply because of his remarkable athleticism, rather than his boxing style. However I know very little about MMA and would be interested to hear some opinions on possible crossovers.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Mar 3, 2010 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
I’m also curious- does anyone stand out as being a potentially good candidate for MMA?
"He hit like a bitch."
by SMC on Mar 3, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
David Haye has talked about it and I think it’d be interesting if he dedicated himself while near his athletic prime.
Kermit Cintron talked about it which was interesting because he was a pretty good wrestler in high school so at least he has SOME background in a different area.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 3, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Mar 4, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know a ton about MMA either
But I know enough to know that spectacular upper body movement with a stiff lower body (which is how Toney’s always fought) isn’t going to cut it when someone can attack the lower body.
I’ve always thought Kermit Cintron would be better off in MMA than in boxing. He’s too small for it, but Yuriorkis Gamboa’s skills would probably translate well. Roy is probably another. Guys with a physically strong upper body, quick reflexes and quick feet. 41 year old Toney is none of the above, and even 25 year old Toney is one out of three.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Depends on who they fight.
Anderson Silva will often plant his feet and rely on head movement to humiliate his opponent, then launch a counter and move out of range. Takes incredible reflexes, knowledge of the sport, and striking [for MMA] prowess. Then again, he only has done this to more slower strikers who he could outclass (Rich Franklin, Forrest Griffin), and he has a background in capoeira so his overall movement can quickly get smoothly unpredictable.
The best match-ups that I’d like for Toney in the UFC are Cro Cop, Gilbert Yvel, and Pat Barry. All of whom would stand with him, but destroy his lead leg with kicks very quickly. Leg kicks hurt way more than they appear to, and for a guy unaccustomed to them, it’s a rude awakening. Especially if it comes from a guy like Cro Cop, who has scored TKO victories by leg kick so brutal, his opponent needed a stretcher to exit the arena.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Mar 4, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions
Ouch!
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Mar 4, 2010 9:35 AM EST up reply actions
There are a couple
Kermit Cintron wrestled in high school and said he was willing to fight in the UFC, but Dana White said he wasn’t going to put money some boxer that no one cared about.
Lennox Lewis was talking to Tito Ortiz on Celebrity apprentice about how he used to wrestle and could do MMA. Recently, Vic Darchinyan said he was interested in it too.
2009-09-12, Matthew Greer, W-TKO-2: Only notable for the fact that Toney came in at his lightest weight in six years.
Also notable for the fact that Greer stung Toney a bit.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 3, 2010 6:19 PM EST reply actions
Freak show must go on.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Mar 3, 2010 6:24 PM EST reply actions
Just the thought of James “Man Boobs” Toney rolling around on top of another man is enough to make me puke. What’s he going to do if one of those UFC guys get him on the ground? He’ll look like a Killer Whale…
I’m hoping Dana White matches him up w/ a striker. Old, fat, & way past his prime — Toney could still knockout most UFC HWs if they kept it standing.
I doubt it
He hasn’t physically knocked anyone down in nearly a decade.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
That Oquendo win was a total gift, too.
This is ridiculous.
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Mar 3, 2010 7:56 PM EST reply actions
As an MMA fan
A few points I’d want to bring up. A boxer that could translate well would need to be quick on their feet, good movement, because you cannot plant your feet as stiffly as you can in boxing when you strike. This is because a fighter often times needs to quickly drop down to block a shot. Stiff lower body movement = prey for good wrestlers.
Another? I’d like to see how his power translates, with 4 oz. gloves power gets magnified quickly.
Also, there is nothing that says Toney would always have the standup advantage against other fighters in the UFC. James Toney is a boxer, not a kickboxer, which would translate much better to MMA.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Mar 3, 2010 8:02 PM EST reply actions
Also
As an MMA fan, I’ve come to appreciate the UFC holding the fighters it signs to a higher, elite standard, this is just disappointing to me. James Toney can try his hand at MMA, sure, but by no means does he belong in the gold standard for MMA competition right off the bat. This would be like me fighting Mayweather in my third professional fight, with Pacquiao being my tune up fight.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Mar 3, 2010 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
If washed up Akebono can try his hand at MMA after retiring
I guess washed up James Toney can do the same. I expect similar results, and neither of them would have been any good in MMA in their primes.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
My thoughts
If a high level grappling champion can take the time to try and convert his skills for MMA, why can’t Toney?
I really do hope he takes his training seriously however, or he’ll just get smashed and make boxing look bad, he’s working with Ibarra though, which is a decent sign.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Mar 4, 2010 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
If a high level grappling champion can take the time to try and convert his skills for MMA, why can’t Toney?
Because he’s 41 years old and “dedication” hasn’t exactly been James Toney’s strong suit over his career.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Overaged (not usually to this extreme degree of course) and lack of dedication has halted many a fine grappler from converting their skills properly. I hope Toney can make the light heavy limit (205) Because I really can’t see someone who’s 5’10" hanging with heavyweights.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Mar 4, 2010 1:36 AM EST up reply actions
Prove it.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
Which?
That someone that short is at a decided disadvantage in MMA?
Look at Jeff Monson, one of the best grapplers out there, period. He got tooled by Tim Sylvia in the UFC, the reach advantage was just too much.
Georges St. Pierre, the welterweight (170) champion in the ufc is only 5’10-5’11"
by Patrick John McGreevy on Mar 4, 2010 3:13 AM EST up reply actions
I hope Toney can make the light heavy limit (205)
I actually think he can, of course he won’t but it’s within his capacity.
"Honey i forgot to duck" - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Mar 4, 2010 9:38 AM EST up reply actions
Well
If we’re talking about can, just judging on his frame I bet it’d be within his capabilities of cutting to middleweight (185) . If you look at some of the wrestler types in the UFC cut a ridiculous (near dangerous) amount of weight before fight. For instance, Gleison Tibau is known for cutting from his walking around weight of 190 to his fighting weight of 155 lbs. A lot of light heavyweights in the UFC could realistically fight at Heavyweight, but they’d be small(ish) heavyweights, and they’d just sit outside the top 10 of what’s arguably the weakest division (In MMA and boxing apparently)
I’ve rambled on too long. Long story short, Toney should be able to fight at Light Heavyweight, where it would be his only chance It looks like he’ll be fighting Kimbo Kimbo’s last fight was at a catchweight of 215, and if it’s there again it should be almost comically easy for James Toney to make it. Kimbo vs. Toney is a freak show fight in my opinion. Kimbo’s ground skills are decent, since he’s put in some time with a serious MMA camp, one of the best in the business. His boxing is okay for MMA (no real kickboxing skills) and is a bit bigger than Toney, but if he stands with James which is very likely, he’ll get knocked the fuck out and be embarassed. If Toney puts in somewhere near half a year with a serious camp (not just fucking Ibarra, who’d be good for adjusting his boxing for MMA, but not takedown defense) Toney might be able to clown Kimbo. Toney being over the hill or not, Kimbo being a mostly boxer in MMA with no real kicks, trying to stand and exchange with a former word class boxer means we may see someone get Mercer’d (although you people tell me Toney doesn’t have that kinda power, the power in strikes just translates so differently in MMA Toney might be able to knock him out with a stiff jab)
But, the hanging point is if Toney takes this really seriously, and busts his ass to get better, because while Kimbo isn’t exactly the cream of the crop, he still managed to guillotine Ray Mercer in an MMA fight, so if Toney thinks it’ll be a walk in the park, we may see Kimbo’s only armbar victory ever
by Patrick John McGreevy on Mar 4, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Goddamn
Why is there so many slashes through my ramble? :(
By the way, I’m sorry for that massive sized ramble about James Toney and goddamn KIMBO SLICE.
The MMA media has got me again :[
by Patrick John McGreevy on Mar 4, 2010 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
I hear you.
Toney is hardly a poster child for dedication and laser-like focus in the gym (or at the deli). But I will say this in his defense. He strikes me as someone who would be strongly motivated not to get his ass handed to him in the ring octagon. It’s plausible that his pride will motivate him, whereas in the ring Toney has been too comfortable for his own good now for years.
But I confess, I have my doubts about him making 205.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
But isn't it sort of bad ass of Toney?
C’mon admit it, you are morbidly curious about how this turns out. You know you are.
Personally, after following Toney’s career closely for many years, there is little good or bad that would surprise me about Toney, including a mildly successful short term run in the MMA. But then again, I don’t know shit about MMA.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
But isn’t it sort of bad ass of Toney?
I think it’s desperate attention-seeking, so in my opinion, not really badass. He can’t get anyone to pay him to box. He’s been on podunk shows since the second Peter fight.
C’mon admit it, you are morbidly curious about how this turns out. You know you are.
Well, sure. But it’s most interesting to me because of the fact that if I had a list of guys who could maybe translate well to MMA, 41-year-old James Toney is seriously near the bottom. This is sort of like Dan Severn trying to box.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Mar 4, 2010 12:45 AM EST up reply actions
MMA image
Dana could also be doing this as a way to boost MMA’s image by showing some over the hill boxer get beat. He may also be set up to fight Kimbo. This is a freak show any way you look at it.
It will depend on his opponent
But unless its someone trying to box with him, he will either get taken down, or leg kicked until he falls down and can’t get up.
But hey, anything for a good payday.
Even if it's someone standing with him
He’s so fat he’s not going lower than MMA’s light-heavy – 205. And Toney is no MMA light-heavy, the guy was good when he was a middleweight boxer -160 and somewhat higher. But he doesn’t have the pop, even with a 4 oz glove to do damage at that weight.
This is a joke.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
As a ten plus year MMA fan
I just want to punch whoever’s idea this was in the face
Bruce Seldon > Ali
I can’t believe how huffy fans here are being about this. What’s with the self-righteousness? Over at Bloody Elbow, more fans seems relaxed about this signing, even if they think it’s a bad idea. Here, more posters seem judgmental in a way I just can’t relate to.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
Well
It’s kinda because MMA has been littered with freak show fighters, primarily in Japan but often enough in America too, and if James Toney is a freakshow fighter he’s better than what we’ve seen. James Toney actually comes from a legit combat sports background where he performed/performs well enough. Bob Sapp was a large extremely muscled black man who perfectly fit the Japanese idea of what black people are, and while getting his rear handed to him in both K-1 and MMA still makes more money than many established fighters. Kimbo Slice was a youtube street fighter who became a superstar fighting garbage opponents.
James Toney is hardly as offensive when you put it in that perspective.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Mar 4, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, that makes sense.
Boxing fans, purists that we tend to be, may more easily dismiss something with novelty value than MMA fans, since MMA, being a much younger sport, is still evolving from its wild and woolly origins. (Or something like that.)
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
Evolving?
I watched a 185 lbs Japanese pro wrestler slash superhero (Minowa) submit a 7’2" Korean kickboxer (Hong Man Choi) with a leg lock and am waiting for a rematch.
MMA fans are much more open to the “freak show” side of things so long as it happens in Japan. We also get very sensitive about it when it happens in the UFC, being the premier organization in the sport.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Mar 4, 2010 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
Ha
Minowaman is the exception to any and all rules. Minowaman is the epitome of awesome, and the one freak show I fully approve of, because Minowa to me embodies the spirit of Japanese fighters. Plus he’s awesome.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Mar 4, 2010 6:43 PM EST up reply actions
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