Was Roy Jones Jr. the best super middleweight ever?
by Bad Left Hook on Apr 1, 2010 11:30 PM EDT
in Boxing Commentary & Opinion
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With the Jones-Hopkins rematch coming in just two days, Jim Amato looks back at a stopover period of Roy Jones Jr.'s career, and makes the case that the best fighter in the short history of the super middleweight division was in fact Roy Jones.
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The super middleweight division was conceived by the IBF in 1984. On March 28th of that year, rugged Murray Sutherland pounded out a fifteen round decision over Ernie Singletary in Atlantic City to become the first titlist of this bastard weight classification.
The WBA began to recognize the weight class in 1987. The WBC followed suit in 1988. Somewhere along the line the lightly regarded WBO also gave this division its blessing. In all fairness, the creation of the 168 pound class had some merit. The jump from middleweight to light heavyweight is a serious challenge. A few have accomplished the feat, but other great middleweights like Carlos Monzon and Marvin Hagler avoided the issue.
Little by little, the division began to take hold. Since 1984, though, the division has been graced by some great, great boxers. Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and James Toney all held a piece of the title at one point or another. Iran Barkley, Nigel Benn and Michael Nunn among others were recognized titleholders.
Who was the best 168-pound boxer since the inception of the weight class in 1984? Many will favor Joe Calzaghe because of his numerous title defenses. It would be hard not to say Leonard or Hearns as their classic battle at 168 lbs. ended in a controversial draw. Really, neither boxer spent a lot of time in this weight class, certainly not enough to make a major impact.
For my money, the most formidable super middleweight titleholder was Roy Jones Jr. In the two years he held the crown he made six successful defenses, all by knockout.
Roy won the title by defeating unbeaten James Toney. This much anticipated super bout took place on November 18, 1994. Toney had won the title in 1993 with an impressive stoppage of Iran Barkley. Entering the Las Vegas ring to face Jones, Toney sported a 44-0-2 record. The fight wasn't even close. Jones scored a flash knockdown over Toney in the third round. Roy then proceeded to walk off with the title by scores of 119-108, 118-109 and 117-111.
In March of 1995, Roy blitzed the capable Antoine Byrd in a single round. Then in June he dominated the popular Vinny Pazienza. The bout was halted in six rounds. Then Roy took out veteran contender Tony Thornton in three rounds. In 1996, Roy belted out the game and hard punching Merqui Sosa in two. Rough and tough Eric Lucas was next, and his grit and determination took him into the twelfth and final round when the bout was finally stopped. In 2001, Lucas would win the WBC version of the title. In his sixth and final defense he took out unbeaten Bryant Brannon in the second. One month later Roy would beat Mike McCallum for light heavyweight honors.
Taking the Toney fight and all six of his defenses into account, the combined record of Roy's opposition was an astounding 208-21-7. That should clearly show how dominant Roy was at this weight. Could Roy have beaten Leonard, Hearns or even Calzaghe at this weight? It's a good question, but it is plain that nobody other than maybe Calzaghe dominated like Roy did at 168 pounds.
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Simple, but effective counter-argument.
Not. Enough. Time.
Unless you really believe Gale Sayers was the greatest running back ever. I’m all for quality over quantity, but this is just ridiculous even in a young division.
Matt. Alrite mate..
Agreed. What stands out about Jones and Calzaghe, is that for most of their respective title reigns, they both looked untouchable. I loved Benn, but as exciting as he was, you always knew he could blast himself to “tiredville”.
You watchin (forkin out for) Haye this weelkend?
by Phill on Apr 2, 2010 6:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No.
Calzaghe is.
Like the above comment says, both he and Jones looked untouchable at this weight, but Calzaghe stayed much longer (quantity) the accomplishments of Calzaghe in this division is simply unparalleled (quality, so he has both). Saying who will win between them at this weight prive vs. prime is not exactly relevant in determining who’s the greater super middleweight.
by Fj-3 on Apr 2, 2010 6:48 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Alrite Phil.
Yes i think i’ll buy it.I think Haye will get the TKO at some point.
I know what Fj-3 means-Calzaghe was at the weight much longer and achieved more but for the time he was there,Roy hardly lost a round and i think ‘who would win’ talk is relevant,but then that’s subjective.
I can’t argue too much with those who would put Calzaghe on top.
Jones rates above Calzaghe as an all timer fighter,imo,but at 168 i can see reasons to pick either of them.
What I meant with that
is that even if you think Roy wins against Joe, it doesn’t mean that he’s the greater super middleweight. And yeah, it’s subjective in the first place.
Head to head, the argument is there
But I think it’s tough to make the argument based on resume. Toney is obviously a great win, and might well be the best win in the history of the weight class (probably better than Calzaghe over Kessler). Merqui Sosa was a very underrated fighter, and that’s a pretty solid win, but really no better of a win than Eubanks or Lacy. Not sure how much beating a fat Vinny Paz helps out his case. I always go back and forth on him and Duran from that time period. It’s like they gained 20 pounds and then just picked a weight class where nobody else was fighting so they could look good.
Anyway, I guess I can see a quality over quantity argument, and a head to head argument (no doubt in my mind that the 168 pound version of Roy would have whooped prime Calzaghe’s ass). If we’re saying “best”, I probably agree. If it’s “greatest”, then the argument is more of a stretch.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
its roy easily imo.
a prime roy would clown calzaghe and everyone else. a prime steve collins and id even bet a prime eubank and benn would beat joe as well. chong-pal park is up there at the top as well.
joes numerous defenses of the spurious wbo belt against over the hill former greats and other European never will be’s is not impressive to me. the win over kessler is his best win and that was a pretty darn close win.
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
.
Was it really?
I dunno. I see that one like Floyd’s victory over Oscar. Yeah, the cards weren’t super wide, but the winner was in complete control the entire fight and lost rounds mostly because they took some rounds off.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
like floyd vs ocsar, i think joe pulled away last few rounds. but up till that it was pretty even
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
.
Yeah I had the same thing. I had Joe winning 116-112 and dominating the latter part of the fight to pull away a clear victory.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Same here.Calzaghe changed his style about rd 4 or 5 when he realised it wouldn’t be wise to stand and trade with Kessler,then pulled away in the scoring.
Kessler was still competitve but Joe did hurt him with a bodyshot later on in the fight.
Personally i don’t think it was quite as close as May v DLH.
I agree with SC’s score,8 rounds to 4.
Yes, IMO
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 2, 2010 8:58 AM EDT reply actions
Joe, more accomplishments
over more time, but (and I am no fan) Jones Jr. had to be the best. ….
But I still, and always will, wonder about that chin.
Chances are his chin always sucked, he just didn’t get hit.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 2, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
He got hit enough
I mean, he was tagged here and there through his career, and he was never dropped until he faced Del Valle.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
By Montel for sure
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 2, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Please read that email I sent you. Very imporatnt for the back cover of my new book.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 2, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Right,
but that’s a problem when you put a fighter in a historical context: Someone would have gotten to his chin, even at his best. There are always other great fighters with the right tools—
But at 168, I have no idea who that might have been.
Middleweight would venture some discussion. Light-heavyweight for sure.
Jpnes has fought over 25 guys who have been world champions at one time or another. Case closed as far as I am concerned. JC is second.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 2, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Roy Jones
I dont know if RJ should be considered the greatest super middleweight of all time, but as a 29 year-old, he is perhaps the most dominating fighter I have ever seen fight. Throughout high school, I loved RJ and thought no one else was better. You can’t really fault him for the quality of opponents, the same way we can’t really fault W. Klitschko. Jones fought the guys considered to be #1 a lot of the time. But as I have gotten older, I have started to think less and less of RJ’s accomplishments in the 90’s. RJ may be the most explosive and exciting fighter I have ever watched, but looking at his entire body of work it is hard to say he is the best super middleweight ever. May be the best of the 90’s.
http://www.examiner.com/x-33584-Cleveland-Boxing-Examiner
by Cleveland Boxing Examiner on Apr 2, 2010 2:58 PM EDT reply actions
It is clearly Okkte.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Ottke DQ1 Jones
Jones would have the temerity to punch him.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Jones
Was a superior fighter to Joe but at Super-Middle, the division was Calzaghe’s. A prime Benn, Eubanl or Collins to beat a prime Calzaghe? No way. I also believe that Calzaghe would havegiven Roy a far better fight than most of his opponents. Joe was quick and busy – not something that RJJ was paricularly fond of.
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
I think Joe would have given Roy a terrific fight prime-versus-prime at 168. I favor Jones and have no doubt he’d win, but Calzaghe’s style would have always given Roy at least a few problems, IMO.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Roy wouldn't have been able to coast..
That’s for sure. Then, who knows?
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on Apr 2, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Tough call
I’ve always felt a young Calzaghe would have caused a prime Jones some problems. People tend to forget that he was very heavy handed before he smashed them (his hands) to bits. He never took a backward step and his chin was sound. Plus he was fast and accurate.
by Phill on Apr 2, 2010 6:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Jones at his best is in another league to Calzaghe
Lets see at 168 Calzaghe nearly lost to Robin Reid , was decked by Cadbury Salem ;-) and Byron Mitchell . If Jones had defended against Peter Manfredo , Evans Ashira , Ricky Thornberry , Tocker Pudwill , Mario Veit twice , Branko Sobot , Juan Carlos Giminez Ferrerya , Will MacIntyre and Miguel Jiminez he would have been rightly savaged and or laughed at . Joe also had a habit of fighting blokes Ottke had already beaten . I would suggest that Abraham fighting Dirrell or Kessler fighting Ward on their home patch was a harder task than any Joe ever set himself .Calzaghes refusal to give BHops a rematch wasnt the act of a fight all comers type champion either . Joes’ resume isn’t too flash and Kessler being thrashed by Ward didnt make it look any better . Roy on the other hand has no resume at 168 except his win over Toney . I’ll go with Jones ;-) At his prime he would have stopped Calzaghe , shit he had him on queer street and Roy cant even punch anymore . The young Jones would have had little difficulty in hitting Joes chin and that would have been bad news for Joe .168 for most of its history has been a stepping stone division ala 130 or 140 pounds, its not a glamour division . You can make an argument Frochy has a better resume at 168 than Calzaghe . Jermaine Taylor , Pascale , Dirrell and now Kessler . Joe went 6 years without fighting anyone as good as those four . ( Maybe Byron Mitchell although I’m dubious .) Matt , if you can find me some film of Joe landing these" heavy handed shots" on world class fighters whack it up mate LOL I asked me mate Bristol to do it and he didnt ;-) Joe is a super smart , superbly conditioned fighter – boxer with an ugly unusual style . Heavy handed he isnt lol Wheres Joes’ equivalent of Hops – Lipsey or Jones – Reggie Johnson? Every one of Joes stoppage victims I’ve seen were overwhelmed by a barrage of light handed punches that they couldn’t get out of the way of . For a good southpaw Joes left cross is a slap . His jab is his best punch in my opinion . Cheers blokes .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Roy is the best ever @ 168 -175!
Nobody beats a prime RJJ, thats why Calzaghe keept hes but over in Whales. If he would have come over in the 90’s he would have lost. Toney in his prime would have given him trouble.I don’t think you could have a sound arguement that beating the level of comp that RJJ did is comprable to the level of comp Calzaghe faced. His best win before RJJ/ BH was Lacey and we see how over hyped he was, as an old RJJ looked young against him.
RJJ by a land slide
Whales
it’s Wales…
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 4, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
In the old days of 8 titles Joe was a Light Heavyweight
I’d have paid big money to watch Calzaghe fight blokes like Michael Spinks , Matthew Saad Muhammad , Dwight Qawi , Bob Foster .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
sorry Matt I just gotta out of bed mate LOL
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
It's OK Mate
but you should remember from our old ESB debates that i’m a Hopkins fan,not a Calzaghe man. :)
John Conteh would have beaten Joe
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Thats all I’ve ever asked as a fan mate , that fighters fight the best blokes at their weight without fear or favour . Frochys got big balls . You have to love that .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Calzaghe is the more accomplished fighter at this weight class, and that’s important. The phrase “better” means something different, and for many, that calls to mind hypothetical head to head matchups, where we can speculate that Jones was superior.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
by Matt Miller on Apr 3, 2010 1:15 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This pretty much concludes the discussion for me
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 4, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
What's the criteria?
If by Best Super Middle, you mean most talented, then I’d choose prime RJJ for sure. If by Best Super Middle, you mean most accomplished, the Joe Calzaghe for sure. It just depends what you mean by “best”.
JC effin 40
Mate you MUST be bored.
Sheika, stopped in 5
Woodhall, Stopped in 10
Mitchell, stopped in 2
Sakio “nobody will fight me” Bika 12 rd UD
Veit stopped twice
Brewer, good fight against a good fighter 12 rd UD
Lacy, cut to pieces and made to look shite… easily.
Some dude called Ashira, 12 rd UD with one hand. If yer man ‘Nard had so much as had his feelings hurt, he’d roll round on the deck to get some sympathy from the ref and lets face it, I know Calzaghe “slipped” against Hops, because he couldnt knock a f’ckin fag out of your mouth!!
Christ, even Ste Collins retired rather than face him!
Even Eubank said he hit hard, but I suppose YOU would know more than him!!!
Now, get your arse down to the bookies and part with some wonga, stick it on Roy and you’ll do alrite LOL.
Cheers Ace!!!
LMFAO Phil you bastard
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
I'll vote for Sven as the best 168 pounder ;-)
Ottke was a bloody killer , hardest punching , meanest mother plucker to ever get in the scared circle ………..
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
I'll Vote for BHOP as best at 168
After fighting a green Roy at 160 with a damage limitation style whilst Roy cruised to victory it was clear that Roy was ducking me at 168 by not agreeing to a 50:50 split even though everyboby knew I was bigger draw than him and more highly rated. I then signed to fight Calzaghe at 168 but when he agreed terms obviously I had to double the terms at the last minute to show the world he was ducking me. I then convenietly bypassed 168 when i moved up in weight – beat the champion there – another case of Joe ducking me. When he called me out at 175 agreed to let me choose the weight, have home davantage, 3 home judges and ref and beat me everybody knew Joe didn’t have the balls to take me on. If there was any doubt then feigning a low blow and pleading with the home ref for a break should have convinced evertbody of my dominance. Joe can’t punch shit – just look at the way I was on the front foot the whole fight and walked him down – lol He didn’t complain to the ref once – that ain’t right. This is the worst injustice since the locked me up for mugging a Granny. But I’m not beaten – when did Joe ever get schooled by Roy, when is the last time he ever beat a muliti titled, multi divisuion champ like lipsey ? Whenever they talk to me now I gonna pretend the fight with Joe never happened, I talk about the great ‘rivalry’ between me and Roy (1 fight 17 years ago and me avoiding him ever since) and if I say ‘me and Roy’ enough some kids who don’t know about the history of the sport might imagine that we should be spoken about in the same breath. Some say I never won a close fight in my career, but why take the punishment when without pain you can make excuses afterwards. The English don’t like me – but is it my fault that they already have an pompous, excuse making, bottler called Will Carling and don’t need to adopt another one. Joe aint never gonna fight big guys like Oscar, Felix, Winky and Kelly – hell they’d terminate his membership from the anti-bullying campaign.
by BristolOne on Apr 3, 2010 8:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
LMAO
Bristol, nice one! You’re a master at reverse scanario insults/back handed compliments of the tongue in cheek kind. Listening to some of the comments this morning, it sounds like my “hurting ’Nard’s feelings” comment was correct. Even JC40 sounds like he’s bored shitless by the bullying bullshit braggart who must now SURELY ’eff off and do something else.
Cheers.
by Phill on Apr 4, 2010 3:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
cheers Phil
I didn’t watch the fight, but sounds like it was evn worse than predicted. I hope they both retire now. Hopkins – unlike Joe or Roy I think Hopkins is good in the promotion field and as a fight analysist. When he is talking about himself or another fighter when there is an angle to try and work for himself – I find him a pain in the arse – the whole victim – the world is aginst me thing is tiresome. However if he is just calling a fight straight – then he is much more to the point and often very perceptive – even interesting (maybe I’m stretching a point) Why he is calling out Haye I’ve got no idea mate – he’s nicely set up with GoldenBoy, got plenty of other options. Even I wouldn’t enjoy seeing him sparked by Haye (obviously that last line was a complete lie !)
roy jones the best super middle? get out of here!
one question to start with- name me 3 great fighters Roy Jones fought? not including a ‘young’ hopkins. answers on postcard!
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