Final Thoughts on Pavlik-Martinez
by Scott Christ on Apr 18, 2010 5:24 PM EDT
in Boxing Results and Post-Fight Analysis
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Back in September 2007, Kelly Pavlik came off the canvas in a great fight to score a dramatic knockout of Jermain Taylor, winning the world middleweight championship from the man who had dethroned Bernard Hopkins.
Upon the finish of the fight, HBO's Jim Lampley made the call: "There's a new middleweight champion of the world! He's from Youngstown, Ohio!"
Now, there's a new new middleweight champion of the world. He's from Quilmes, Argentina, lived and fought out of Madrid, Spain for most of his career, and now resides in California.
His name is Sergio Martinez, and he's traveled the long road to stardom.
Martinez's hands down, seemingly-arrogant style is good for TV if you only consider that. But then you watch him fight -- he's a cutie. He's in and out, he doesn't often engage in firefights, and his power, while respectable, is hardly jump-out-of-your-seat stuff. Then you consider even further. He will engage in a firefight if he has to, he takes a good shot, and when he's in a rhythm, he's hard to hang with.
Last night's win over Kelly Pavlik was, I thought, a very entertaining fight, full of momentum swings and some great tactical boxing from Martinez's corner. Pavlik, too, fought bravely. After four rounds, he appeared flustered and on the verge of defeat. But then the now-former champion stormed back into the fight, even scoring a seventh round knockdown. After eight rounds, I had Pavlik ahead 76-75, with the tide having turned.
Martinez adapted again. He had cut Pavlik early, and then opened a far worse gash on the other side of Pavlik's face. And like a top-tier fighter, he knew what to do. He zeroed in on the blood, and made it worse and worse, until Pavlik couldn't even see what was coming at him. No longer could Pavlik do the things that had turned the fight for him in the middle rounds. Now, it was Sergio Martinez proving his considerable worth. And in the end, it was Sergio Martinez with his hand rightly raised, the new 160-pound champion of the world. The new man who beat the man. The new king at middleweight.
I admire Kelly Pavlik's performance from last night, but obviously the story is not about him. It's about Sergio Martinez, who has now become a star, when just two years ago I never would have expected that. Since coming onto the HBO airwaves, Martinez has gotten better in each fight. He thrashed Alex Bunema, deserved two wins over Kermit Cintron and left with a draw in a bizarre but entertaining fight, and then lost a nail-biter decision to Paul Williams last December in a Fight of the Year candidate that left both men with a higher profile.
By beating Pavlik, Martinez and promoter Lou DiBella no longer have to hope that Sergio can "get" a good fight. The good fights are coming through him at 160 now. Martinez fought Cintron because they both needed it. He fought Williams on short notice when Pavlik pulled out for a second time. And he fought Pavlik in part because Williams and Pavlik couldn't come to an agreement, leaving Martinez as the only viable option, really, to get Kelly back on HBO, where he needed to be after spending all of 2009 on small Top Rank PPVs and losing some favor with the big network.
Sergio Martinez is now in the driver's seat, and he's earned it. He fought his way here. He has continually surprised people, first with his skill, and lately with his toughness. There aren't many things he does poorly in the ring, and at 35 and having proven how dangerous a fighter he can be, last night really may have been a "now or never" for him. Had he lost a close decision (or been robbed) against Pavlik, who do you think was going to fight this guy? A slick lefty who can make you look bad and isn't a big draw isn't exactly what most promoters are looking to match their fighters against.
Kelly Pavlik is at a fragile place in his career right now. The wrong move could lead to disaster. A safe comeback fight could lead to further criticism, which he really can't afford from a PR perspective. Pavlik has a rematch clause, and I'm going to bet he really does intend to exercise it. Pavlik is still a good fighter, and he's got pride.
He's been on the other side of this before, too. When Pavlik beat Jermain Taylor, Taylor's career had been taking shots left and right. Many still didn't believe that he beat Hopkins in either of their fights, and then he drew Winky Wright, and followed that up with fights against Kassim Ouma and Cory Spinks, neither of which thrilled anyone. He fought Pavlik and lost, then exercised his rematch clause immediately. He lost again to Pavlik, beat Jeff Lacy to finish his HBO deal, and then lost to Carl Froch and Arthur Abraham. Now, Taylor's career is up in the air.
Jermain Taylor had been given the keys to the HBO Golden Boy car, and so seemingly had Pavlik. It turned out that both of them, while good fighters, were not untouchable, which is an unrealistic thing to put onto any fighter. Pavlik was taken apart by Bernard Hopkins, and now has lost clearly to Martinez. How does his career project from here on out?
The truth is, the Martinez rematch is the only thing he can do right now, I believe. He can't afford a "tune-up" or "bounce-back" fight. It won't do him any good. He's got a chance to beat the man who knocked him off his perch, the way Taylor did. I still feel as though Taylor showed a lot of guts and admirable quality by immediately fighting Pavlik again. I would think the same of Pavlik for fighting Martinez again in his next fight.
If Pavlik doesn't do that, Martinez himself doesn't have a world of options either. A rematch with Paul Williams, should Williams beat Kermit Cintron on May 8, would make sense. It was a great fight, a disputed decision, and they brought out the warrior in one another. Past the triangle of Martinez, Williams and Pavlik, there's just not much by way of name value at 160 in America. The rest of the best fighters in the class (Sturm, Gevor, Sylvester, Geale, Mundine, Macklin, Barker, Zbik, Golovkin, etc.) all have no name in the States, except perhaps Sturm, who is remembered for his debated loss to Oscar de la Hoya years ago. And I don't think Sergio Martinez has much desire to take anything but the best challenges, and I'm sure he'd love to avenge the loss to Williams, too.
We'll see how it all shakes out, of course. The division is still pretty weak overall, but last night officially added a top-class fighter to the mix. It might not be the deepest pool, but things are getting more interesting at least.
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good article, but there were two things that bothered me
1.) the kermit fight was hardly entertaining. it was mindnumbingly dull up until the KO, and only picked up the pace after the whole “headbutt” fiasco.
2.) the good fights probably won’t go through sergio. like you mentioned near the end, the only good fights are pavlik, and williams. obv now that sergio is THE champ he’ll have leverage in negotiations, and i suppose thats where you’re right about the fights going through him. i just don’t see what sergio can do after pavlik & williams.
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 18, 2010 5:35 PM EDT reply actions
By the time he has fought those 2,if he’s still champ,i think some other challenges would come along.
Felix Strum would be an OK fight too,imo.And very winable for Martinez.
yeah thats true, but he could conceivably fight those two dudes before the 1 yr anniversary of pavlik-martinez I. i don’t see anyone on the horizon that could be good money fights for sergio. he’ll probably be in the same boat as JT and pavlik, and just get rid of mandatories
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 18, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
1.) the kermit fight was hardly entertaining. it was mindnumbingly dull up until the KO, and only picked up the pace after the whole "headbutt" fiasco.
I said it was entertaining, not a thriller. At the end of it all, it had turned out pretty entertaining after the boring Act I.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 18, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Let there be no mistake.
Martinez waxed Cintron in plani sight.And then he got stiffed by a draw.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 18, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Martinez could have pulled out a 44. magnum and shot Kermit dead that night, and he still would have gotten a draw. He was jobbed hard. Burton Augustus hard. It was sick! He counted the man out!
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Not in Texas he wouldn't
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
i ddn’t that he didn’t deserve a win, i just said it was boring
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 19, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the worst thing Pavlik could do is go straight for a rematch
I think he needs to find some good fighters as tune-up. He looked a little slow last night, like he wasn’t ready for what he could bring. I think he needs to get sharp and get his confidence back. Rematches rarely work out well for the guy who lost the first time. The only guy I think of off the top of my head would be Pacman beating Erik Morales in their rematch.
Your right that Pavlik needs to be careful, which mean she needs to take his time. He needs to think about a lot of things. Has he hit a wall with Jack Loew? We’ve seen what changing trainers has done for guys like Shane Mosley. Is he cutting too much weight to get to 160? Should he think about moving to super middleweight?
If Pavlik rushes back without figuring out what is really wrong, he’ll lose again. And then he becomes Jermain Taylor, on the canvass in Germany finished as a top fighter.
Vote Quimby
Problem with Pavlik taking a tune-up is that he's basically fought tune-ups since Hopkins.
Rubio was a fringe contender; Espino was a gatekeeper, at best. I don’t think Pavlik is going to fight anyone who can prepare him for Sergio, and it simply comes down to whether or not Pavlik has the skill to beat him.
In many ways, I think the best thing for Kelly would be to go straight up to super middleweight and fight Lucian Bute in Canada: it’s a money fight (in Canada), not one that he’s necessarily going to be expected to win, and it has a title on the line. If he wins, which I do think is feasible, then he’s the first opponent for the Super Six winner. If he loses, there’s still going to be the remaining Super Six guys to fight.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Apr 18, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
not one that he’s necessarily going to be expected to win
He would at this point be a huge underdog against Bute, even.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 18, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, and I think that's why it's such a good fight for him to take.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Apr 18, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Where is Locket wnen we need him?
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 18, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he needs to find some good fighters as tune-up.
Two problems there:
1. He’s already got a reputation for fighting softies after the Lockett, Rubio and Espino fights.
2. There aren’t any good fighters for tune-ups at 160. They would be pure and obvious bounce-back opponents, and the tolerance for Pavlik taking those fights is really low right now.
Rematches rarely work out well for the guy who lost the first time. The only guy I think of off the top of my head would be Pacman beating Erik Morales in their rematch.
I’m a stickler for harping on the statistical fact that the winner of Fight #1 almost always wins Fight #2, but there is Pacquiao-Morales, Barrera-Morales, Vazquez-Marquez, etc. …Hopkins-Jones, OK, I apologize.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 18, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Now if he went to 168 for a tune-up against one of the fringe contenders there, that could work. It’d be smart to see how his body responds, how he feels at the weight, etc. Plus there are more suitable opponents for that role at 168. Pavlik-Andrade would be great fun, though after the Bute rematch Andrade is threatening to want to become a better boxer.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 18, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he really should move-up
Lampley (I think) thought he looked too big and slow, like he has to drop too much weight.
I was thinking of course in the rematches of Mosley-Oscar, Forrest-Mostly, Taylor-Hopkins, Taylor-Pavlik, Bute-Andrade (I know, I know), Floyd-Castillo. But your right, it cuts both ways.
Vote Quimby
The only guy I think of off the top of my head would be Pacman beating Erik Morales in their rematch.
Well, Ali, Pac and not that many others. Robinson of course. I think around 90% of the time the original winner wins again, although I don’t remember the actual statistic.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 18, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Miguel Cotto vs Sergio Martinez if the rematch with Pavlik doesn't happen.
It could sell in Atlantic City or New York.
Pavlik should move up to Super Middleweight. He looked slow and more awkward after the weight gain.
Cotto is no sure bet to beat Yuri Foreman, and then he’d have to jump ANOTHER weight class, where he’d be exceptionally tiny. He’s already going to be incredibly small at 154. 160 would be ridiculously foolish. Miguel Cotto is a smallish welterweight. Martinez would have about four inches of height and ten inches of reach on him. It’d be ugly.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 18, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
he probably meant for martinez to go back to 154
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 18, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would he do that?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 18, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t know man i wasn’t the one who suggested he fight cotto
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 18, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Why wouldn’t he? I don’t mean this as a smart ass question. If Martinez can’t find a good fight at 160 is there any harm in taking a fight at 154?
"It's Manuway or the Highway" - tlo
He’s going to fight at 160. Pavlik and Williams rematches are lucrative.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 19, 2010 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions
The ABCs will probably start suddenly enforcing mandatories
Now that a Top Rank fighter doesn’t hold the belt. I imagine the WBC will try to force him to fight Zbik now, and then strip him of the middleweight title for not fighting Zbik, and strip him of the junior middleweight title for negotiating with Zbik.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Yuri KO-2 via surgical tribal tattoo removal!!!!
by Waldo Rastel on Apr 18, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
154 or 160
Cotto still gets annihilated,imo.
Partly because of the size but mainly because Cotto is exactly the type of fighter a slickster like Martinez has a relatively easy night with.Cotto would be getting countered constantly by a bigger,harder punching,faster fighter.
I reckon it would be over within 5 rounds.
I wouldn’t say annihilated. schooled is more like it.
im actually picking foreman to beat him as well.
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
.
by sonofapsycho on Apr 19, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Pavlik should right back in there and take up the re-match clause. He’d still get beat, but he’d earn some $$$, maybe his last big paycheck, and some props from all of us. I think Pavlik has some mental issues; I don’t mean he’s crazy, I mean he loses confidence during a fight and can’t get back into it. And that’s only since BHop beat him. He got off the canvas vs Taylor, but it appears he has lost focus, confidence, whatever. He can’t blame his corner….they were giving him good advice.
Get back in there with Martinez. It’s a win-win situation for Pavlik.
well i think the lack of focus/confidence/will to win in the bhop fight probably had more to do with that fight meaning nothing in the sense that it wasn’t for any belts. in the JT & martinez fights his belts were on the line. he had to get up against JT, or he probably wasn’t to get another title shot. he had to adapt to martinez’s fighting style or else he would lose his championship after only 3 years of getting it. unfortunately against martinez there was nothing he could do against someone who’s gloves were apparently made by freddy krueger
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 18, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Very interested in what will be Martinez next move. Pavlik I think will take some time off while his cuts heal before enforcing his rematch. Williams has Cintron coming up. Will Martinez await the winner or take another fight in the mean time? Not only that, but where will he fight? He’s the man at Middleweight now. But he’s still in possession of the WBC Junior Middleweight title. There’s no doubt he can still make 154 without problems.
If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.
Martinez need a Locket-type fight.
He has earned it.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 18, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but at 35
He needs big dollar fights, and both potential rematches against Williams and/or Pavlik fit the bill.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Apr 18, 2010 7:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh, and BIG UPS to Martinez
He did what more challengers need to do. He went out and TOOK that title from Pavlik. He fought his fight and made Pavlik fight him. He fought like he was the champion and that is why he won. GREAT performance by Sergio Martinez
Vote Quimby
absolutely!!
If you always thought what you thought, then you wouldn't think what you knew.
by Haans Bishop on Apr 18, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Pavlik is caught in a bad place
If he moves up, he gets beat by lots of tougher guys. If he stays at middle weight, he will kill himself making the weight. KP is now done.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 18, 2010 7:30 PM EDT reply actions
I think the whole “he’s hopeless at 168” thing is overblown just a bit. I’d certainly favor Ward or Dirrell over him, but after that…I actually think Pavlik-Bute is a good fight. Not sure about Abraham, Froch, or Kessler, but all would seem like perfectly solid fights.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Apr 18, 2010 7:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Why would Bute be a good fight?
When has Pavlik shown that he has the ability to avoid getting hit?
He got hit alot vs McKart, Martinez who are all southpaw… and it is safe to say that Bute is one of the best southpaws in the world with one punch knockout power.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
I think Bute is a bit overrated
Andrade and Miranda, while certainly solid enough, aren’t exactly worldbeaters. I’m just
not convinced that this guy is quite as good as he’s being made out to be. I genuinely beleive he loses to Ward, Dirrell, and possibly Abraham.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Apr 18, 2010 7:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Lets buy into your arguement that he is indeed overrated…
What does his overratedness mean when he can hit someone who is easy to hit?
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
I mean I beleive
That Pavlik could gradually break him down and win the fight. Martinez is as slick as they come (moreso than Bute), and Kelly DID do a good job of adjusting and completely turning the fight around. He got cut in round 9, which is a credit to Martinez, and promptly lost the fight. If the cut doesn’t happen, I suspect we are all in this thread arguing about who won.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Apr 18, 2010 8:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't think Pavlik has ever met anyone with the uppercut speed of Bute--
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 18, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Hard to argue
If you look at all the good fighters at 168, they are all jacked. Muscular and strong as hell. I think the only top Super Middle. Pavlik can really compete with his Froch and that’s just because of size. KP’s only chance is to beat Martinez in a rematch and then move up to 168 and roll the dice.
http://www.examiner.com/x-33584-Cleveland-Boxing-Examiner
by Cleveland Boxing Examiner on Apr 19, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
It will never, ever happen
But after last night, PBF-Martinez at 154 looks like a heck of a fight.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Apr 18, 2010 7:40 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I meant done as a major force. He has been over-hyped IMO. Now, aside from Sturm, what is there for him to do? And he no longer can call the shots with the authority of being a champ. Nope, I’ll stand by my word “done.” He is in a very bad spot to be.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 18, 2010 7:52 PM EDT reply actions
BTW, Martinez’s stamina is other-wordly. It gives him a great dimension.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 18, 2010 7:52 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed
His fitness levels are astounding. He is definitely one of the best conditioned guys in the sport.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 18, 2010 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Comes from his background in not boxing. Both cycling and soccer require crazy amounts of endurance!
by Waldo Rastel on Apr 18, 2010 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Look the bottom line is that if Kelly Pavlik wants even the possibility of getting his title back, he needs to hightail it out of Youngstown. At the very least this guy has been eating appetizers in the ring ever since he won the title, drinking while he was on anti-biotics for staph, playing “hometown hero,” etc. The guy’s head is probably a mess, and his trainer is not remotely capable of training a world class fighter. We’ve all been saying this for a while now. It’s possible he couldn’t have beaten Martinez even as a Kronk fighter, but some of the mistakes he was making seemed to be a direct result of somebody who truly had no gameplan to fight a southpaw. There were points where it seemed like Pavlik was trying to figure everything out on in the ring. Basically, his best options at middleweight were and are leftys (really good leftys too!) and there is just not one chance in hot hell that Jack Loew can help him review tape or shop out a proper sparring partner to play Martinez. If Pavlik does not bring in outside help, he will get beat again by Sergio, and maybe much easier than the first time.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
his trainer is not remotely capable of training a world class fighter.
bottom line for me.
If Pavlik does not bring in outside help, he will get beat again by Sergio, and maybe much easier than the first time.
Ya know, I don’t like Manny Steward, but KP’s body type is made for Manny. And I know, I know, “you really gotta buy into a new trainer” – fine. But Manny could teach him how to use that jab, just the jab , a whole lot better. And that could be the difference against Sergio in the rematch.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
I actually really like Manny Steward as a trainer
I completely agre that if he worked on improving Pavlik’s existing weapons, such as the jab or his over-used one-two, then Kelly would pose a far sterner challenge to Martinez a second time.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 19, 2010 6:45 AM EDT up reply actions
On top of all the old Kronk fighters he helped to ‘world’ titles,he’s a major part of Wlad turning his career around,imo.
Manny Steward is going to be regarded as one of the fundamental cornerstones of boxing history, I think.
Whether or not that is deserved/warranted is a matter of opinion, but I think future generations will refer to Steward in the same way we refer to Dundee and D’Amato now.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
not by me – I’ll remember him as a limited trainer, but one whose good at his very specific, very limited role – teaching long dude’s to use their jab.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
agree. manny is very overrated. overtime people will realize that.
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
.
by sonofapsycho on Apr 19, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree on all points
Jack "Double that Jab’ Loew wasn’t at his all-time worst last night but his was close. His corner was a mess. It was if he had two drinking buddies trying to stop blood from three cuts, no strategy and, as usual, little or no adjustments to recommend. If Kelly sticks with Loew we can assume we’ve seen the Best Of Pavlik already. As for Manny Steward, he may be able to help now … but not with any further delay. His talents are best employed before a fighter is ‘broken’.
Pavlik was completely unprepared
It’s officially time for Pavlik to fire his whole corner and regroup.If you looked at the cut man he was completed scared to death when Pavlik came back to the corner with that blood running from his face like that. The cut-man was a complete amateur. Pavlik was about to quit. It’s time for him to switch it up and release the friend/ trainer. His whole training regiment was completely the the same. Those guys are pimping Pavlik. It’s either restructure or he will meet the same demise as Jermaine Taylor. He has been completely figured out at this point. Pavlik has the big punch but it is only effective if the guy stands in front of him and opponents see that clearly with two back to back losses. It’s very possible that Pavlik will start getting knocked out now.
If you always thought what you thought, then you wouldn't think what you knew.
You should go train him
I’ll come and be his cutman, we can be a team.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 18, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
We couldn't do any worse!
Plus we would be getting paid. LOL
If you always thought what you thought, then you wouldn't think what you knew.
by Haans Bishop on Apr 18, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Bute did what was expected and done before…
Martinez upset the linear and ring champ…
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Beating Miranda is an expected outcome by anyone who is considered top class in the 168 division. Miranda has lost to Bute, Ward, Pavlik, and Abraham with a notable win coming over Allan Green. Miranda has become an exciting gatekeeper to the 168 division. Don’t get too excited over this victory, Bute still needs to face top-level competition….
by Waldo Rastel on Apr 19, 2010 5:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I like Bute
But Miranda is garbage. They put Bute on HBO intentionally in that spot ahead of Pavlik so he could devour him in front of a huge tv audience. BTW, how does Miranda keep getting big matches or title shots?
He lost to Abraham for a title, then lost to Pavlik in an eliminator, then lost to AA again for a title, then up to super middle and he beat 2 stiffs, then got swept by Andre Ward, then he fights one stiff and gets a first round KO, then a title fight with Bute. Ya, he is not good competition at all.
http://www.examiner.com/x-33584-Cleveland-Boxing-Examiner
by Cleveland Boxing Examiner on Apr 19, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Miranda keeps getting shots becauce he is exciting
And very TV friendly.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 19, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I get that
But, it’s could be exciting. The 2nd fight with Abraham, the beatdown by Ward and the KO by Bute were not at all exciting. Only the fight with Bute was cool, because chump got knocked out after showboating in front of him.
http://www.examiner.com/x-33584-Cleveland-Boxing-Examiner
by Cleveland Boxing Examiner on Apr 19, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
exciting in the sense that anyone with a punch, and killer instinct will knock miranda the fuck out. and on the other side of spectrum if miranda gets lucky he could KTFO whoever he’s fighting
also he beat AA the first time imo
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 19, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
What are you implying?
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
My final (HBO) thought::
Lennox Lewis > Manny Steward
Seriously. Because one is wrong but not very sure of himself, and can easily be laughed off. Manny is a big-man front-runner who won’t shut the fuck up when he’s wrong, and never stopped riding Pavlik, or making Martinez diminutive. I felt like Jermain Taylor listening to him last night by how badly he pissed me off.
he was annoying
But he was the only voice of reason the week before in the Caballero-Yordan fight. And in fairness, Pavlik was turning things around throughout the middle rounds.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Apr 19, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Lewis was actually pretty good
He may not always be particularly eloquent but his points are usually pertinent and interesting.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 19, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
I think Lewis’ mind and analysis are always in the right place, he is just not that articulate.
http://www.examiner.com/x-33584-Cleveland-Boxing-Examiner
by Cleveland Boxing Examiner on Apr 19, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Boxing
reminds me of life in general in a lot of ways.
Some find success early on and some find it easier by being given better opportunities and knowing the right people.
Other’s have no choice but to take the long road and be patient,waiting for their time to come.
Some peak early,others are like fine wine and get better with age.
At 35,Martinez might not have many years at the top but i like to see the talented underdog,who doesn’t get the chances some others do,have his time at the top of the pile.
This was a great fight
but it is BURRITO TIME, BABY!
Arreola TKO 6.
Is there ANY chance this fight goes the distance?
by The Boxer Rebellion on Apr 19, 2010 9:35 AM EDT reply actions
Ha ha
No way. Adamek is strong enough, that if he lands a ton of punches, he could stop Arreola within 12 rounds. And obivously, it could take just one punch for Arreola to put Tomasz asleep.
http://www.examiner.com/x-33584-Cleveland-Boxing-Examiner
by Cleveland Boxing Examiner on Apr 19, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
ADAMEK WILL DESTROY ARREOLA!
Well, maybe not. I’m really looking forward to this fight. We’ll see if Adamek is a real HW or not, and if Arreola is a true contender or just a guy you need to go through on your way to the top.
I have business and friends in Poland, and they are excited about Adamek, now that he defeated Golota, who was a big deal over there.
pavlik vs bute and williams vs martinez 2 would be a nice hbo double header.
pavlik has to move up. his tall boney ass shouldn’t be killing himself trying to make 160 anymore. i’ll pick him over bute. could be wrong but i dont see bute taking his punches
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
.
i seem to remember pavlik having zero zip on his punches at 170 against bhop, you still think he has that same monster power from 160 at 168?
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 19, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
he was too busy getting the shit kicked out of him to do judge anything about him in that fight. 168 is more natural. if hes conditioned properly no reason it wont
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
.
by sonofapsycho on Apr 19, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Who is next for Sergio?
#1. If the Pavlik rematch doesn’t happen, will Sergio have to drop any of those middleweight titles, cause Pavlik is a mandatory?
#2. If Cintron beats Williams, would Sergio fight Kermit at 154?
#3. Outside of Pavlik, Williams or Cintron who would you like to see Sergio face?
My answer to #3: Personally, Martinez would crush Sturm and I dont want to see that fight. One of my favorite fighters in boxing is Alfredo Angulo. I know he lost to Cintron, but watching AA is always entertaining.
http://www.examiner.com/x-33584-Cleveland-Boxing-Examiner
by Cleveland Boxing Examiner on Apr 19, 2010 12:23 PM EDT reply actions
Martinez has options at 154
Martinez beat Pavlik and imo Williams at 160, but Martinez is even better fighter at 154, his more natural weight class. And other than Williams and Pavlik, there isn’t much going on at 160 and there are good fights at 154. He could fight Margacheato in a rematch, Angulo if he gets by Julio, Dzinziruk if he wins his next fight, and as someone mentioned Cotto at 154 if he beats Foreman. Out of those mentioned, Cotto, Angulo, and Margacheato are relatively big names which would bring big dollar signs.
the extra 6 lbs didn’t look to make any difference at all for martinez. in fact his abs glistened even more at 160 than they ever did at 154
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 19, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
battle axe
I am slightly disturbed by your numerous references to Martinez’ ‘glistening abs’ and ‘nice hairdo’….Hahaha! :D
Is he replacing Mikkel?
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 19, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
mikkel broke my heart after the ward fight. a dude’s gotta move on, and sergio seems like a good candidate :p
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 20, 2010 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, just for you
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 20, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Martinez v Dzinziruk at 154 is a good stay busy fight.
Two skilled southpaws both champions, I’d like to see that. Sturm would be a good technical fight at 160.
How’s Manny’s dance card looking?
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Dzinziruk has no name value… even the hardest hardcore fight fans will not buy into it..
Sturm… abs vs abs? :)…Yeah… not a big fight still…
It is Williams or Pavlik and that is it…
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Yeah neither Euros are big money fights but Martinez will want to stay active. I’d be surprised to see Pavlik rematch him any time soon. But Williams mos def, providing he comes out of the Cintron fight without major damage then bring on the rematch in 4 months time.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
How’s Manny’s dance card looking?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 19, 2010 9:25 PM EDT up reply actions
you always somehow get the creepiest/most innocent looking pics of not-so-innocent people
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on Apr 20, 2010 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I would buy a used car from him
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 20, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Lennox just repeats whatever question is posed to him. For example. Papa says Lennox, Funeka falls into Guzman after he jabs, cant Guzman counter this?, and Lennox says Yeah he can counter it. (not exact quotes but something like this). He never gives a tactical outlook from a fighters perspective which is what he is supposed to do. at least Manny gives tactics and insight into what is going on in the corners. And he doesnt over react to events in the ring like Jim and Larry.
Steward is my favourite
But I don’t think Lennox is all that bad; he has some nights which are very good, and others, less so.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 20, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Lennox is hideous
There are no nightclubs in Las Vegas. Dirrell was like Ali against Curtis Stevens. He never adds anything of worth. “Lennox, do you think he should double up his jab?” “YEAH! He should double his jab, by which I mean throw TWO jabs!”
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 20, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Hehe
Maybe you’re right, but there’s just something about him I like. Maybe it’s his suit.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 20, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
This--
Sergio Martinez is now in the driver’s seat, and he’s earned it.
could not be more true. Martinez has earned his place.
A lot of respect to him. I’d like to see him at 154lbs. again where some good fights wait.
In the 8th round, I fully expected Sergio Martinez to start yelling at Kelly Pavlik. I really thought he was going to start saying “What’s my name? Say my name!” to Kelly. It was getting that bad for Kelly. He was getting blasted from all angles. He couldn’t handle anything Sergio threw at him because he had no idea how to combat a quick fighter that moves in and out. Kelly got exposed, again, and now needs to find himself, again. He won’t ever beat smart fighters or fighters that bring an element of speed to the table. And his conditioning is crap.
As for Sergio, he’s on the way to becoming a bona fide star. He’s got the gusto and the talent. Martinez-Williams II is on the horizon. Pavlik-Martinez II does not need to happen until Kelly decides to take boxing seriously. He’s lost his heart. The Pavlik that rose off the canvas to knockout Jermaine Taylor is long gone. The limelight killed whatever fight he had in him and his meteoric rise to the top killed the hunger he used to bring to the ring every night. Martinez, however, shows something new every fight. He’s a stud. There’s not much out there for him, though, outside of Pavlik and Williams.
I guess Martinez could drop down to 154 and hope that guys like Mosley and Pacquiao move up but it seems like that might not happen. Guess he’ll just have to keep providing fantastic fights and awesome performances at 160. As for Pavlik, a move to 168 might do him some good. Fights with Bute, Ward, Froch, Kessler, and Abraham would be great for his career. He needs to just find himself first, though.
Awesome fight by Martinez. Such a talented and natural athlete. I’d have to rank him my fourth favorite boxer to watch after Williams, Mayweather, and Katsidis. He’s just so fun to watch in the ring. Makes everything exciting.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
and hope that guys like Mosley and Pacquiao move up
I cannot stress enough that Manny Pacquiao absolutely will not be fighting at 154 pounds. They didn’t want anything to do with Yuri Foreman — why on earth would they fight Sergio Martinez?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 20, 2010 4:07 AM EDT up reply actions
It was more of a wish than anything. I figure that if Martinez can continue putting up great performances, maybe Manny (and Freddie) will want that fight. Then again, most likely not.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
If he keeps putting up great performances they really won’t want to fight him. A slick southpaw with solid enough power, great movement, enormous confidence, and almost half a foot of height and nearly 10 inches of reach on Pacquiao. I love Manny Pacquiao, but every fighter has limits, and I think 147 is as high as he can go without fighting a complete stiff, and that Roach and everyone else knows that.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 20, 2010 4:18 AM EDT up reply actions
True. I guess it’s just a fight I’d love to see. Martinez is top five right now and I want to see him in the best fights.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
the 160 divition is a bit flat in my opinion. i feel like martinez would get mugged in a re-match with williams. best/worse case senario is pavlik wins the re-match and martinez goes away.
That's interesting
Because I think Martinez would dance all over him.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 22, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
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