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Salt in the Wound: Jones likely made no money against Hopkins

Roy Jones Jr. got busted up on Saturday, drew terrible press for his rematch with Bernard Hopkins, and won't even get to smile at the bank. (Photo by Ethan Miller / Getty Images)

As you probably have already heard, Saturday's PPV fight between Roy Jones Jr. and Bernard Hopkins was not a live success in Las Vegas. Almost anybody could have predicted that would be the case. Dan Rafael of ESPN.com said that the attendance was reported as 6,792, and that that wasn't paid in full:

The media coverage and fan reaction were overwhelmingly negative, and only 6,792 people showed up at Mandalay Bay to watch the fight, despite the availability of deeply discounted or even free tickets.

Yahoo! Sports columnist Kevin Iole also broke down the financial situation for the fighters:

The sad thing about the fight is that Jones won’t make anything. Let’s assume for a second that the 6,792 in the building actually paid for their seats (we know that’s not true) and that the seats averaged $300 a ticket (a figure higher than reality). That would mean the gate was $2 million. If the expenses to rent the building and promote the fight were $1 million, that means $1 million is left. Now, let’s figure it sold 100,000 pay-per-views at $49.95 apiece. That’s about $5 million. They have to split 50 percent of that with the cable and satellite operators, so that leaves $2.498 million for themselves. Add the $1 million from the gate and the $2.498 million from the pay-per-view and you have $3.498 million in profit. Given that the contract called for the first $3.5 million in profit to go to Hopkins and Golden Boy, it’s almost certain Jones fought for nothing. Actual revenue will likely be far less than I’ve described above.

Part of me finds this incredibly sad. I'm a Roy Jones fan. I admit the man has absolutely nothing left in the tank whatsoever. I was able to pump myself up one final time, figuring that against his rival, anything in reserves might come out of him for this one night. It didn't happen. He was awful. He wasn't even the faded Roy Jones of recent years.

Now, he's not even going to make any money, and if he does, it will be peanuts. There are a few ways to look at this. First, you have to give credit, whether it seems "fair" or not, to Bernard Hopkins and Golden Boy Promotions. The first $3.5 million going to Hopkins and Golden Boy, when $3.5 million was no guarantee for this fight at all, is a shrewd business move. Jones and his people clearly lost the battle at the negotiating table on that one, perhaps because they were delusional enough to grossly overestimate public demand for this fight.

Let's say Jones had beaten Danny Green in December and this fight had happened with both coming off of wins. Would it have been that much different? Neither man has sold a fight in a long time. Their last major PPV appearances in 2008, promoted by HBO, were flops (Hopkins-Pavlik and Jones-Calzaghe). Hopkins, frankly, has never been a major star. Jones was a bigger star, but was never a crossover, big-selling guy like Oscar de la Hoya or the last few years of Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s career.

The talk was already there that it was way too late for anyone to really care about a Jones-Hopkins rematch. I think they'd have done a bit better. For one thing, HBO would have promoted the fight, at least a little, and that would have helped. For another thing, Jones wouldn't have been just stopped in a round by a guy from Australia who has no name value in the States. Even among the American diehards, those who know much about Danny Green don't turn up in significant numbers.

There's a chance they did better than 100,000 on pay-per-view, but I don't think it's much of a chance at this point. My very high-end estimate was 250,000 buys, and I conceded that it could easily have been half of that. So let's even say they did 125K or 150K. Jones still makes almost nothing for the fight. Bottom line is if this was Roy's way of making it to the bank with a smile one final time, it's not happening.

Cold, hard facts are what both men need to face: it's over. I don't think there's a single fight Hopkins can make right now where the risk outweighs the "reward." The two fights people talk about are Chad Dawson and David Haye. Does anyone who watched Hopkins on Saturday think he can beat either of them? He's too small for Haye, whose power is entirely legit at the heavyweight level, and who is a faster, bigger, stronger athlete, and oh yeah, he's almost 20 years younger. Dawson dominated Glen Johnson his last time out, and Johnson is far more aggressive and gung ho than Hopkins has looked in his last two fights. "Bad" Chad looks like he's coming into his own, and I don't see him having the flaws that a wily veteran like Hopkins can exploit, at least not now. Maybe if we were talking the Hopkins of two-to-four years ago against today's Dawson, sure, but we're not.

For Jones' sake, I do hope this did shockingly solid numbers on PPV and he gets some money. The fight was terrible and there's that complete cynic in me that says, "I wish neither of them got paid," but I also recognize that that's a pointless way to think about things. He went and did his job. But if he doesn't get paid, it's hard to cry the blues. Boxers are, like it or not, subject to the whims of the public demand as to how they're paid. If it turns out the public spoke so loudly that Jones doesn't make a dollar for the fight, that's just kind of the way it is.

After all, this isn't a situation like David Lopez (for instance), where the man is avoided and can't make the money he probably deserves, or the countless other fighters in a similar situation. Everyone knew who these two were. Nobody who really follows boxing doesn't know Jones and Hopkins. These aren't the mishandled, unfortunate cases, where deserving men aren't paid what they've put in. It's just that it looks like few were willing to pay $50 to see them fight again, and everyone was trying to tell them that for months. In this case, Roy has taken a major risk, and it appears he's lost.

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A sad ending

For one of the greatest fighters that ever lived, and my personal all-time favorite.

by The Boxer Rebellion on Apr 6, 2010 8:05 AM EDT reply actions  

agree

jones jr is one of best that ever put on a pair of gloves. but after he won a hw title he should of quit on top it’s really hard as a fan to watch him get ko’d by green,or glen or even tarver these guys. would of been killed had they fought the real roy but this sport has no room for old guys. who was never technically skilled to begin with he was just fast and had good power. but once thats gone you have nothing left.i hope this is the last round for a once great champ

by tombomb on Apr 6, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

For Jones’ sake, I do hope this did shockingly solid numbers on PPV and he gets some money. The fight was terrible and there’s that complete cynic in me that says, “I wish neither of them got paid,” but I also recognize that that’s a pointless way to think about things. He went and did his job. But if he doesn’t get paid, it’s hard to cry the blues.

The real cynics here were Schafer, Jones and Hopkins. It’s been clear as day that Jones was 100% done for several years now, and if it wasn’t then Green TKO1 should’ve put all doubts to bed. The fight should’ve been scrapped the very next day, but instead there was a bunch of spin and B.S. about “Europe” and “something in the wraps, maybe.” Talk about cynics!

I have an even more cynical opinion about what happened with the post-fight negotiations (and in the ring that night), but I’ll keep it to myself. No need to dissect this frog any more. It is dead as hell.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 6, 2010 9:49 AM EDT reply actions  

I’m tired of crying “fixed” but I do believe that fight was jacked up.

Why didn’t Hopkins KO Jones? There were times when he had him trapped on the ropes and Jones went into the same exact turtle shell that got him stopped against Green.

I don’t think Hopkins tried to finish Roy the other night. The thing is, I’m not sure why. For Hop not to KO Roy, that’s effectively a loss for Hop in my book. And more importantly, I think it hurts his chances to fight anyone legit.

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 6, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

To be fair, Zags didn’t kayo Jones either, and he could have fought a money fight against someone legit afterwards if he wanted to.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 6, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Calzaghe? – yea but he can’t hit…hardly at all at that point in his career – what with the hands and the lack of power to begin with.

Hop beat up both Tarver and Pavlik within the last few years, and really beat up Pavlik. He had Jones on the ropes where he could absolutely unload, and he didn’t. He either threw a few punches to the body and held on, or slapped Jones in the head.

I know you love Hopkins, but really, are you telling me Hopkins tried to KO Jones the other night?

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 6, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

the more I think about Jones v. Hop, the more I think Hopkins intentionally avoided KO’ing Roy – for whatever reason.

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 6, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know you love Hopkins, but really, are you telling me Hopkins tried to KO Jones the other night?

Well, no I don’t. Like I said, I have my own theory about what happened. Remember the little scuffle that broke out after the bell? Yeah, well, I read that as Jones did something that Hop thought broke the agreement. Only time they really fought all night. Remember the booing in the first round? That’s what happens when people pay to watch a fight and finds themselves at an exhibition instead.

Anyway, I guess it hardly matters now.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 6, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Zags had Jones in a similar position to Green, beating him up ugly on the ropes. The only difference was the ref in the Green fight pulled the plug, because he was marginally sane. Roy can’t fight back anymore.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 6, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Calzaghe? – yea but he can’t hit…hardly at all at that point in his career – what with the hands and the lack of power to begin with.

I don’t think Hopkins anymore hits much harder than Calzaghe did then, honestly. It’s not that I don’t think Bernard can punch at all, but power was never his game and it never truly came up to 175 with him anyway. He wailed on Tarver, but never really had Pavlik in any serious trouble despite beating the crap out of him, and his knockdown of Calzaghe was half a shove. Hopkins also appeared tight and twitchy all night.

But I’d be lying if I said jrok’s “agreement” thing hadn’t entered my mind, too, and I really try my best to not think along those lines. Honestly, if Jones knew he was fighting for basically no money — and he had to have known — what incentive was there for him to risk much of anything?

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Apr 6, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh I think he had Pavlik in pretty good trouble down the stretch of that fight. The 12th round was dicey for Pavlik.

And, look at that 12th round. THAT is a Hopkins 12th round. In close turning and hitting, shoving and hitting – it looks mean because Hopkins is mean. We saw NONE of that career and legacy defining type of fighting the other night.

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 6, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hopkins is an expert at performing open heart surgery on big punchers. He played Trinidad in almost the exact same way, to kayo him late. He was on his way to doing a similar thing to Kelly Pavlik, and if he was a few years younger he surely would have.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 6, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sad as

this may be, it also shows that we fans have some limits.

We might get pulled in on a lot of bad PPV’s, but promoters can push only so far. ….

by Don From Prov on Apr 6, 2010 9:56 AM EDT reply actions  

Don agreed

I think like you although Sad for Jones in one way it’s good for Jones if it prompts him to finally hang them up and good for us fans as it might show them that we expect better !

by BristolOne on Apr 6, 2010 10:54 AM EDT reply actions  

at some point…u can’t make fans want to support you any longer.

Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.

by theworldsoldestsport on Apr 6, 2010 11:29 AM EDT reply actions  

and not for whatever exorbitant cost the ppv was.

Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.

by theworldsoldestsport on Apr 6, 2010 11:30 AM EDT reply actions  

That's crazy .. If this is correct

B-Hop and Golden Boy are the ultimate hustlers, for sure. If this was calculated on any level
basically he got his ass whooped for free. With that being said they have taken the hustler/ promotion game to another level and stripping Don King of the crown.If and only if, this was even thought about as a possibility .

If you always thought what you thought, then you wouldn't think what you knew.

by Haans Bishop on Apr 6, 2010 2:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Ouch!.... That's a bad cut

Is that from the other night? That’s not the type of lasting image of Roy Jones I want. He’d never have allowed himself to be hit (or in ‘Nards case, butted) lke that years ago. Give it up Roy, you’re better than that.

by Phill on Apr 6, 2010 4:07 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

That’s from the other night, yes. That cut first opened up against Calzaghe and has never really gotten better.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Apr 6, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

jrok was talking about that scar tissue

the whole week leading up to the fight and was absolutely correct.

by The Boxer Rebellion on Apr 6, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wanted odds on that. I knew for sure it was coming open, but it was just a matter of when. I missed it by two rounds. Actually, I thought the fight would be stopped because of it.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 6, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

More intriguing

Is whether Yuri Foreman has the pop to reopen that cut that’s been bothering Cotto since the Margo fight.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 6, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I actually hope it didn’t do that great, if that’s what it takes to finally get through to RJJ that it’s really over.

He just needs to sit his ass down next to Teddy Atlas and call fights…

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Apr 6, 2010 6:47 PM EDT reply actions  

A couple things irked me in this thread:

1) The idea that Hopkins intentionally didn’t KO Roy. This is definitely a bit of a nutjob conspiracy theory. If Hopkins was capable of KO’ing Roy, he would have. Hopkins hasn’t really KO’d anyone since 02. Yeah he stopped De La Hoya on a body shot, but that was one of those “glad it happened, but I was just throwing to the body and it landed perfectly” shots. He certainly wasn’t gunning for a KO on a light looking body shot. Hopkins has shown little ability to stop anyone in eight years no matter how dominant he has been.

2) The idea that Roy should have retired after beating Ruiz. Why? He was the king of the world? If there was any point where you can say that Roy should have retired without a doubt it would have been after the Calzaghe fight. He was dominated. It was conceivable that he could have rebounded after the 04-05 three fight skid with some time off and focus on technique, but that ship had clearly sailed by the time Calzaghe dominated him.

by jcarr71 on Apr 6, 2010 6:49 PM EDT reply actions  

2) The idea that Roy should have retired after beating Ruiz. Why? He was the king of the world?

Because of how massively he went into decline after that.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Apr 6, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hopkins has shown little ability to stop anyone in eight years no matter how dominant he has been.

I disagree. He buzzed Pavlik badly. The last two rounds were really ugly for Pavlik and a younger Hopkins would’ve sealed the deal. He had Roy in position many times, he just didn’t throw the punches. And, this is Roy Jones – the guy with what has proved to be (in the last few years) the glassiest of glass chins. So this is what we’ve got:

1. Glass Jones
2. on the ropes
3. terrified to throw a punch
4. in a turtle shell defense neither throwing punches nor holding
5. Hopkins inexplicably failing to unload the requisite perfunctory shots to get a stoppage

Fight was fixed.

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 6, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

and by ‘fixed’ I mean – I think there was an agreement where Hopkins agreed to refrain from going for a KO and Jones agreed to fight Hopkins – that was the deal.

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 6, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think he visibly tried for the KO a couple of times after his acting breaks

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 6, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

The idea that Hopkins intentionally didn’t KO Roy. This is definitely a bit of a nutjob conspiracy theory.

No it’s not. These sorts of agreements do happen. Sometimes they are “silent agreements” that happen in the ring, sometimes it’s an exhibition that is billed otherwise. Unfortunately, the reality of everything that happened – the Green debacle that almost killed the fight, the helplessness of Jones’ negotiating position, the travesty of the fight itself – lends itself to this sort of situation. Of course, there is never any proof of this sort of thing. You have to go by what your eyes, your experience and your common sense tells you.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 6, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

conspiracy? nooooo not the great B Hop!

Some posts here have indicated the fight was rigged…let’s look into it a bit further. Let’s start with Hopkins, his last few fights has shown that he’s still a competitive boxer. He has the sharpness and endurance which only fades from rounds 7 onwards. Against Calzaghe and Wright he controlled the fight until rounds 7. He picked off Calzaghe and moved around the ring well, which let’s face is a tough task espcially when you fight a busy boxer like Calzaghe. That fight wasn’t long ago. He then fought Pavlik and by far it was one of his best performances. He wasn’t hurt and fought at the same pace until the end of the fight.

Then came Ornelas, yes B-hop didn’t put in a great performance but he fought in bursts and roughed up Ornelas by landing big shots. No sign of ageing in that fight.

Roll on the rematch with Jones, I followed the pre fight press conferences and Bernard in his usual self talked a great fight. He said Jones will be punished then eventually knocked out. He had revenge pouring out of his eyes. I hung onto Hopkin’s words and took with me to the fight.

First round Bernard did not land that famous counter right hand, even when there was some clear openings. What went through my mind was “Hopkins is playing with Jones”

Round 2 same thing again, Hopkins is trigger shy. Again im thinking Hopkins is giving Jones enouragement here.

Round 3 i’m getting a tad suspicious here, why hasn’t Hopkins landed a telling blow yet? but i’m still confident Hopkins has someting up his sleeve.

Round 4 i’m beginning to think why did I bother to stay up!!

Rounds 5-12 I realised something smells here.

There’s two theories: The fight was fixed or B Hop is past it. The latter doesn’t make sense because B hop in his last few performances has demonsrated that he could have taken Jones out at any of the rounds but didnt land any punches and didnt engage or go for the knockout. You don’t suddenly become a poor fighter overnight especially against Jones who is everyone’s whipping boy.

The first theory makes sense but why would B Hop be untrue to himself? other than a points victory over Jones which has done nothing to boost his legacy in my view. Why would Jones agree to lose to Hopkins. These guys have huge egos which makes this theory hard to accept.

Well, life is full of suprises and I don’t rule out that the fight was fixed. However hard to accept when B Hop is involved.

by clickonme321 on Apr 6, 2010 9:43 PM EDT reply actions  

How does it not make sense that B-Hop is past it?

The man is 45 years old. It’s been a year and a half since he looked good against Pavlik. He looked so-so against Ornelas. Plenty of fighters have gotten old overnight, and other than a few guys, pretty much everyone at that age looks old. The fact that he collapsed from exhaustion after the fight is proof that he’s not at his best anymore.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 6, 2010 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think it’s a question of being “at his best anymore”. He’s not.

But he can still, in the words of clickonme, land “telling blows” – and he didn’t do that at all the other night. And I’ve already talked about who he was fighting while he failed to land those telling blows.

Anybody who can throw a 20 punch flurry can get a TKO over 2010 Roy Jones. I think Hop knows that and there was a reason he didn’t do it.

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 6, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Point taken that fighters can age overnight, after coming off a action packed fight. In the case of B-Hop he wasn’t coming off a gruesome fight, and this guy looks after his body all year around. You expect him to be in good physical condition. So with Hopkins your theory holds little weight.

Watch the fight again, Bernard avoids head punches and instead goes for RJJ’s body. Even bigger farce when the incentive was a knockout win to get paid.

by clickonme321 on Apr 6, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Point taken that fighters can age overnight, after coming off a action packed fight.

This is not the only way. He is 45 years old.

In the case of B-Hop he wasn’t coming off a gruesome fight

Just a fight against a middleweight fringe contender who jumped two weight classes where Hopkins didn’t look very good at all. People ignore that fight. Hopkins was mediocre that night, too.

and this guy looks after his body all year around.

So does Evander Holyfield. So does Roy Jones.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Apr 6, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just sayin' is all

I enjoyed your post, and welcome to the site.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Apr 6, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m almost sorry I brought it up. I didn’t plan on it. It’s just the way I saw it, mostly a gut reaction that made sense to me considering the Green fallout. I’m not saying it’s impossible that Hops just spoiled overnight, but I don’t think it’s crazy to think otherwise given what we saw. I just saw a lot of things that made me suspicious. And both could be true at the same time, anyway. As you said, Hopkins did not look meteoric against Ornelas.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 6, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like I said before, I’d be lying if I didn’t say I thought the same thing. I did. I’m not generally inclined to think that way about fights, but the whole thing was just so pathetic that I couldn’t help but at least consider it. I don’t know either way.

Actually the conversation here has been really good.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Apr 6, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Evander has taken savage beatings in the ring all throughout his career, no one can dispute that. Remember the fights against Bert Cooper? Bowe? Stewart? Holmes? Foreman? Toney? it’s a well known fact Evander has heart problems, i expect his age to tell, he aint superman. The same goes with Roy Jones, he was unconsious before he hit the deck against Tarver. All this combined takes a toll on a fighter. Bernard has never been beaten up in a ring in his career. He is seldom over 15 llbs outside fight time, he works out everyday, doesn’t drink and has a good diet. This is why as an athlete he has longer battery life.

by clickonme321 on Apr 6, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

this is very true – Hop’s never taken a beating. He’s lost – but he’s never gotten his ass kicked.

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 6, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

i can name you 5 fighters who slur their words today as a result of head blows during their career.

1. Calzaghe
2. Hatton
3. Holyfield
4. Bowe
5. Toney

listen to their recent interviews, you’ll see my point!

by clickonme321 on Apr 6, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Calzaghe winded Hopkins two years ago. Bernard was gasping for air in that fight. He did not look good against Ornelas. He looked awful against Jones. People act like the Kelly Pavlik fight is all he’s done since Tarver. It’s not.

You can keep telling me about Bernard’s superior Superman conditioning and telling me that he’s never taken a bad beating like Holyfield or someone else who was, but you’re ignoring evidence from three of Hopkins’ last four fights in favor of admiration for his good diet.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Apr 7, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Dude, he's going through the male equivalent of menopause

He’s not producing as much testosterone as he used to. He has all of the other problems that are associated with old age. He’s O-L-D. Period. He’s not 29. If he was 29, I’d call it into question. At 45, someone can just lose their stamina just because they’re old. There’s a reason why there’s only ever been two guys to hold titles at that age, and one of them basically came on a lucky knockout punch.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 6, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry about the tone

I read it afterward and realized it came off much more confrontational than I meant it to be.

Plus, I counted at least three times that Hopkins TRIED to get the knockout. He just couldn’t. Jones protected his chin all night long, and there wasn’t much Nard could do about it. He didn’t have enough stamina to throw 80 punches a round to try to open him up. A few times, he bum rushed Jones, and it didn’t work.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 6, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

and one of them basically came on a lucky knockout punch.

Lucky my ass. Wrong way Michael!!!

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 6, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, not lucky

But it’s not as if Foreman was outboxing Moorer. Generally, the good old fighters have been power punchers who can win by knockout at any point (since power is the last thing to go), and Hops doesn’t exactly fall into that category.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 7, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like your tone here.

I struggle with the ‘fixed’ idea too in that they both have egos to protect. And, I’m very confident Hop is just much better than Roy at this point, why would he rig this up? – I guess if it was the only way he could get the fight, that’s why.

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 6, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

What ever happened to the KO clause?

Did that not end up getting included in the contract?

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 6, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

no merger clause and the parol evidence reveals a ‘hey homey, no headshots’ clause.

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 6, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

No that it matters, when Hop and GB were swallowing the first 3.5 mill regardless. The marketing for the fight had already been damaged severely, and that was Roy’s “fault.” There’s no way around that.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 6, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jones future hall of famer? not in my book

Excuse the countless posts- i’m new to the site!

Michael Buffer in his introductions on Sat night said RJJ was a future hall of famer! I disagree, my rationale, name me one great fighter he fought beside a ‘young’ Hopkins. Who the hell did he ever fight? he fought tomato cans all through his career. He didn’t fight Tito in his prime. He went up to heavy and fought a small heavyweight in Ruiz.

He don’t make it into my top 50 all time great list.

I’d like to read if someone can successfully argue that RJJ is a future hall of famer.

by clickonme321 on Apr 6, 2010 11:36 PM EDT reply actions  

James Toney...

He was a great fighter in his prime and Roy beat him with ease.

In fact to see a good recap of Roy’s best wins you need look no further than here.

http://www.badlefthook.com/category/classic-events-and-history?page=5

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on Apr 7, 2010 4:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

He's a sure fire hall of famer

He was the #1 pound for pound boxer in the world for nearly a decade, and the standards for the hall of fame are pretty low. Frankly, if he doesn’t make it in, he’d be the best boxer NOT in the hall of fame.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 7, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think there probably is an argument there somewhere that he shouldn't be top 50

But there are about 300 fighters in the hall.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 7, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, he didn't fight just scrubs

Jones has fought 21 former and future titlists, and has wins over at least three other guys who are sure fire hall of famers. Wins include:

James Toney (prime, and the only man to destroy him)
Bernard Hopkins (green, and the only man to destroy him)
Mike McCallum (old, but also the only man to destroy him)
John Ruiz (the only man to destroy him in his prime)
Jorge Fernando Castro (two-weight titlist, and again, the only man to destroy him near his prime)
Thulani Malinga (only Graciano Rocchigiani also beat him convincingly)
Vinny Pazienza (destroyed him right after he beat Duran twice)
Julio Cesar Gonzalez (became lineal champ shortly thereafter, and the only man to beat DM)

And that’s not even mentioning good but not great fighters like Tarver, Woods, Sosa, Tate, Griffin, Del Valle, Lucas, Johnson, Harding, etc.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 7, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bernard Hopkins (green, and the only man to destroy him)

I wouldn’t say he “destroyed” Hopkins in their first fight. Come on, now.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 7, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

By destroyed, I mean dominated

Obviously he didn’t ruin the fighter, but he won a clear and decisive victory by a wide margin.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Apr 7, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn’t that wide. It was 8-4 with some close rounds. Sheesh.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 7, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

And

yet, folks still wonder about Roy.

Sometimes, fighters are defined by the one or two fights they didn’tmake.
Or a rematch or two they didn’t have.

by Don From Prov on Apr 7, 2010 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah

There’s a lot up there that should raise eyebrows, of course. Like “Vinny Pazienza (destroyed him right after he beat Duran twice)” lmao. Still, the point Brick is trying to make isn’t a crazy one. It’s much harder to argue against the man’s greatness than it is for it.

And, I mean if Ingy can get in the hall, it seems wildly inappropriate to keep Roy out.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on Apr 7, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let’s not confuse this any further, I said great fighter(s) in their peak.

The word ‘great’ is over used today. James Toney isn’t a great, maybe a good fighter in his time, certainly not a great.

Hopkins wasn’t destroyed by RJJ, watch the fight again. He was the aggressive fighter of the two.

Mike McCallum was over the hill when he fought RJJ, he was approx 40 yrs of age!

John Ruiz? comeon, he neither is a great. Ruiz won belts during a period Heavyweight division was weak.

Castro, Gonzales and Malinga are NOT great fighters!

Finally, Pazienza? maybe a competitive fighter but lost in the big fights. i.e. Mayweather, Camacho. Pazienza also lost to weak opponents such as British Herol Graham and Garza. You can’t refute the fact that Vinny P beat Duran who was past his best.

You can see I have a strong case for RJJ to not be in the future hall of famer list.

I haven’t made my mind up on RJJ, this is why i’m inviting anyone to successfully argue that RJJ is a great. Help me out here!!

by clickonme321 on Apr 7, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

he fought tomato cans all through his career.

No he didn’t, but if you’ve convinced yourself of that, there’s no point in arguing with you about it.

He don’t make it into my top 50 all time great list.

Does Ingemar Johansson? He’s in the Hall. I have no idea why people act like the standard for the Halls of Fame is Muhammad Ali or Babe Ruth or Jim Brown or Michael Jordan. It isn’t. If Roy Jones doesn’t get in, does Bernard Hopkins? Simon Brown and William Bo James and Antwun Echols (twice!), woo hoo. What a resume. He beat on Trinidad and Oscar when they were over their best weights, same with Winky Wright and Kelly Pavlik. He cherry picked old Jones. He showed Steve Frank what’s what!

This is a really easy game.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Apr 7, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea – you can do that to just about anyone.

"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"

by lcollins1 on Apr 7, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bernard didn't KO Roy because he couldn't

Not because he didn’t want to. His body can’t do what his mind tells him anymore. He can see what he needs to do but he can’t do it. It’s called crossing the threshold. One day you can read fine print; the next day you need glasses. It happens to all of us. Training and maintaining form is great but the sheer weight of history (of one’s body) cannot be denied forever. What we saw was the end of two great fighter’s careers. Fortunately, Roy is still a farm boy at heart with a place to call home. Bernard has the better grip on the business and ain’t gone anywhere. And neither is his money. It’s in treasuries.

by pakinpower on Apr 7, 2010 1:29 AM EDT reply actions  

I thought Hopkins might carry Jones into the late rounds out of spite. But I also thought he’d want to stop him.

"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.

by Goatsnake on Apr 7, 2010 6:12 AM EDT reply actions  

To my eyes Bernard started slipping in the Calzaghe fight , then he fought brilliantly against the stylistically perfect Pavlik . He looked terrible in the Ornelas fight and the Jones fight confirmed he is over the hill . He’s 45 for frigs sake . Im 44 soon and the thought of being anywhere near the ring at my age is pretty mind blowing. Hops will end up being either punchy or seriously hurt if he keeps fighting . He’s a multimillionaire and I hope he ends up in the training biz. Bernard can still fight a good 6 rounds but his stamina like all us aging blokes isn’t what it was . G’Day Goaty you legend. Hope all’s well mate.

"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.

by JC40 on Apr 7, 2010 6:09 PM EDT reply actions  

JC40

Alrite mate.
All jokes aside, I’ve not seen many if ANY fighters going back to the wrong corner like Hopkins did in the Calzaghe fight. As much of a freak of nature he is, he was clearly tired and befuddled. He’d never admit to that though.
Cheers Ace!

by Phill on Apr 7, 2010 6:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

G'Day JC43 (soon to be 44)

Mate, as someone also approaching forty bloody four – I echo your sentiments entirely.

DUBHOPAS in da house!

(Down Under BHOP Appreciation Society)

"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.

by Goatsnake on Apr 8, 2010 6:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

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