Pavlik Moving Forward...
There's been a lot of talk that Sergio Martinez will beat Kelly Pavlik on April 17th. The theory is the Martinez has the same kind of movement that Bernard used to render Kelly so helpless. This theory is insulting to both Pavlik and Hopkins, and focuses on the least important aspect of the movement that Hopkins used last October.
Will Martinez want to constantly move to his right away from Kelly's right? Better believe it. He'll plan on leaning right like a Fox newscast. But fighters scrap game plans after a round or two, or moment or two as often as Peyton Manning scraps a play at the line of scrimmage, but with far less effectiveness.
Bernard is Bernard because he has shown in so many fights that he is disciplined enough to stick to the most regimented game plan. Hence the leather mask and ensemble he wears to the ring. (You can go two ways with that one, he likes being "disciplined" or excellent at "execution"). And what makes him Bernard "F'N" Hopkins to so many, is his ability to make the slightest or grandest change subtlety or demonstratively if the game plan is off.
Yet, the most important part of that stunning upset was not that Bernard wouldn't stand in front of him. It was that when he did, he backed Kelly up like Pavlik was in the French Military. And he did it all night.
You can count the number of times on one-hand that Kelly was even able to set that front foot down. But that was at 170 against a guy who's gone as high as light heavy. More than speed, Pavlik got muscled in that tussle.
It's obvious that at sometime at ring side or tape front, a conversation must have happened amongst Bernard's camp asking, has anybody backed this jackhammer up? Does this kid know how to fight backing up? At 170 plus, Bernard can back him up. We get him there, and Bernard will just gobble him. And he did.
Going forward Kelly is one of very top fighters in the world. Going backwards Kelly won't hold his belt, but at 160, who is going to back him up? Martinez, who is coming up from 154? Not a chance. Kelly's going to be moving forward like, well, like a Kelly Pavlik fighting at middleweight.
Will Martinez's movement give Kelly trouble? He gave Paul Williams a heap of trouble, but it was not due to his movement. When perpetual motion would have most likely been a high priority for team Martinez, he was very easy to find all night, willingly and effectively exchanging.
Was their game plan to use movement? Only the camp knows for sure, but it would have seemed to make sense. Was Martinez just unable to follow the strategy?
If Martinez is as easy to find for Kelly, the fight won't go past 6 or 7. Pavlik is a bigger puncher with a better chin than Williams. Paul sometimes backs straight up with his chin up and eyes down instead of sliding off to the side with his chin down and eyes up. The only time Kelly's ever left his chin up and out, was to taunt Jermain Taylor and he got dealt and knelt for it, so it's unlikely to happen again.
This is going to be an exciting fight. Martinez is very good and could be the top Jr. Middleweight out there. But it is just as likely that a few Jr. Middles would beat him. Martinez battled Kermit Citron to a very active draw, but ultimately did not leave with the W. And Citron is not in the same class as Pavlik (weight or talent).
Can Martinez move? Sure. Will he, or will he be able to? It's doubtful. Pavlik is more likely to put such pressure on Martinez that he runs him right out of the ring. The fight will end early in the seventh with Martinez going out swinging, but Pavlik going home still unbeaten at middleweight.
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I
think that Kelly is just too big, too strong.
And yes, Bernard fought a completely different fight than Martinez will.
But the goal should be the same: Take away the jab.
it is just as likely that a few Jr. Middles would beat him.
Who? Cory Spinks? Alfredo Angulo?
Martinez battled Kermit Citron to a very active draw
Come on. Martinez got screwed in that fight. He stopped Cintron, got screwed there, and should have won the fight on the cards after that and got screwed again.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Come on. Martinez got screwed in that fight. He stopped Cintron, got screwed there, and should have won the fight on the cards after that and got screwed again.
It’s rare that you see a screwing that colossal. It was worse than Casamayor-Santa Cruz. Martinez knocked Cintron out, beat him 8 rounds to four, and got a draw. That was sick stuff!! They look on Sergio’s face was pure disgust, and I was right there with him.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I hope Martinez wins, but I have predicted Pavlik.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 6, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
he CLEARLY beat Cintron, and I thought he snuck it out against PW too.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
I think the KO was at least somewhat disputable. I remember HBO did a super slo-mo replay of the ref’s count, and it looked like Cintron’s knee might have come off the canvas a split-second before the ref got to 10. Now, the ref certainly thought Cintron was still down at 10, and should not have reversed his decision after the fact just because Cintron complained about it. But it’s at least arguable that his initial decision on that was wrong.
Martinez definitely deserved the decision though. That much is obvious. I think I had him winning 9 rounds or something like that.
Cintron believed he got headbutted…. NOPE! That was a punch, Kerms! The ref is standing there counting him out and he’s just staring up at him holding his head. Ridiculous.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
That’s true as far as it goes, but he might have been up at 10, which is what really matters.
In fact, looking at the replay now, I think it’s pretty likely he was up at 10. Camera angle isn’t the greatest, but if I had to guess, I would definitely guess he was up.
The referee waved it off because fighters don’t stay down at 9.5 unless they’re done. Cintron was being counted. He knew he was being counted. If he didn’t have the sense to stand up at 7 or 8 and plead his case that way, I don’t feel bad for him. Santore waved it off, then changed his mind? What changed his mind? That was moronic. Kermit’s insistence that the clear — CLEAR! — left hand was a headbutt also prevents me from singing the blues for him.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 7, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not singing the blues for him either. We’re talking about two separate issues. If Cintron had been counted out, would he have been within his rights to complain that he’d been robbed? No, obviously not. But what I’m saying is: given that Cintron was not counted out, can Martinez complain that he was robbed? I think the answer to that is also no.
Martinez can certainly complain that he was robbed, but by the judges and by the ref’s BS deduction in the 12th, not by the ref’s botched decision on the KO.
But what I’m saying is: given that Cintron was not counted out, can Martinez complain that he was robbed?
He was counted out. Santore waives it off… everybody gets into the ring. The fight is OVER! Then someone gets ahold of Santore and convinces him otherwise. Sergio was robbed, stabbed, shot and dumped in the river. Can he complain about it? I don’t know, but I’ll complain for him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQzXjMmb7w0
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
This again mixes up two separate issues. Once Santore made his initial call, he should not have changed it. But that doesn’t alter the fact that his initial call was itself questionable. Therefore, Martinez doesn’t really have much of a right to complain about it. If Santore had simply not counted Cintron out to begin with, which he would have been well within his rights not to do, then Martinez would have had the exact same result and clearly would have had no right to complain. That Santore botched the procedure means that Santore is a bad ref, not that Martinez clearly deserved the KO.
Right, so let’s move on to the shitty judges who gave Cintron a draw he didn’t deserve.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Casamayor-Santa Cruz was horiffic.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 7, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Ted I wrote some letters after that debacle, to the “late” Ron Stevens. NYSAC still hasn’t cleaned up its act, and probably never will.
Still in some ways I think Martinez-Cintron was worse. Funny thing was, I had a little something down on Cintron in that fight, and I was still pissed at that draw. That was a pure robbery, and something funky was going on.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I still have some concerns from that Cintron fight though
1. Because Martinez was afraid of the big right hand, his workrate was significantly lower for that fight than it has been for most of his other fights. If Martinez is only throwing 40 punches a round again, that plays into Pavlik’s hands, since he’s somewhat of a volume puncher.
2. While I thought Martinez clearly beat Cintron, there were times when Cintron did look good, and there were even a few stretches where Cintron was clearly the better fighter. Those stretches mostly came when Cintron, who is frustratingly passive at times, actually decided to fight more aggressively. Pavlik has no problems with passivity. He should be fighting the way Cintron did when Cintron was his most effective.
3. Martinez had some problems getting inside Cintron’s jab, when he threw it. Pavlik throws 50 jabs a round, and it’s one of the better jabs in boxing. Yes Williams is tall, but he doesn’t fight tall. Pavlik fights tall, and I think he’ll be able to keep Martinez on the outside more effectively than did Cintron or Williams.
My biggest concerns on the Pavlik side are that he’s never faced a good southpaw, and he’s never faced a cutie slickster. I don’t know how well he’ll handle those. But Martinez’s type of slickness is very different than Hopkins’ type of slickness, and historically, the straight right hand has been the best way to neutralize that kind of slickness.
I guess we’ll see when the fight rolls around, but I think Pavlik is going to win this one in surprisingly easy fashion.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Pavlik has no problems with passivity.
Neiter does Paul Williams, and there were times when Martinez was all over him. I can’t wait to see how this turns out!
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 7, 2010 4:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Paul WIlliams throws arm punches though
and is a southpaw. He doesn’t have a big right hand to deter Martinez, so Martinez could continue to throw.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
While I thought Martinez clearly beat Cintron, there were times when Cintron did look good
Agreed. The second half of that fight, once Kermit picked up his pace after he was all mad, was much closer than the first part. Not that the first part was close at all, but Kermit definitely had his moments. I think the second half of that fight might have fully woken him up, because he looked strong against Angulo, and I actually expect him to give Paul Williams some trouble, but I know I’m in the minority on that one. Paul can be hurt, and Kermit can crack with his right hand.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 7, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
"Martinez battled Kermit Citron to a very active draw"
I also had Martinez winning that fight. He sure did get jobbed. In Florida in favor of Kermit Citron? Now he is fighting Pavlik in NJ, not exactly Youngstown, but relatively close.
It is really kind of the same point. I believe he did enough by far to get the win over Citron, but he didn’t get it. How much is he going to have to do to get the win over Pavlik, to take the belt?
So whether he had enough skill to beat Citron or didn’t have enough stroke + skill to get a decision, it doesn’t change who he is on that point. And oh, doesn’t it shape up nice for Williams to beat Citron and Pavlik to beat Martinez and…I don’t even want to jinx it….
Pavlik is basically a house fighter in AC now, so he’ll have home field, or at least I’d guess that’s the impression.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Good post John Genco.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 6, 2010 7:20 PM EDT reply actions
I think that Martinez can take this one actually
If you watch his feet you will see some tremendous footwork, used perfectly, just what is needed to beat the lumbering Pavlik.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
Me too
Martinez’ quickness and southpaw athleticism will give Pavlik hell – a different skill set to that which Hopkins derailed him with – but I predict just as effective. Pavlik hasn’t looked quite the same since Hopkins took his ‘O’.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Well not really
He fought a very unskillful fight against Espino. He relied on his strength and ability to take anything Espino threw to win. Nothing necessarily wrong with this but if he can’t seriously raise his tactical game then fighting a crafty excellent mover like Martinez is going to be a nightmare.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 7, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
If Martinez had trouble with Margarito (yeah I know he was young then) then hes definitely going to have issues getting past Pavlik. Martinez will have his moments but he just doesn’t have enough power to get Pavliks respect. PAvlik is going to juts come forward and eventually stop Martinez late. Pavlik > Margarito > Cintron
I think you are correct, but I sure hope not.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 7, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I havent
Seen Martinez fight. What’s he like gents? I’ll have to YouTube him.
by Phill on Apr 7, 2010 5:20 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
It is confusing to me that you’d be browsing boxing blogs, a fanpost on a boxing blog at that, and never have seen Sergio Martinez fight.
What’s up with this? You call people conspiracy kooks and criticize guys for not knowing a certain boxer? Boxing is an international sport, and not everyone knows or has seen each others fighters. Be civil, please.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
He is slick and tough.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 7, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Sergio Martinez is a slick southpaw who can counterpunch and fight inside. He is a real good fighter. This is Pavlik’s best defense by ten thousand miles since Taylor II.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Sorry to be pedantic....
but Pavlik/Taylor II wasn’t a defense…
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Right, right it was at “164.” Still doesn’t change the fact that Pavlik has fought a bunch of Johnny Blows since he captured the belt.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I wasn't disagreeing with what you were saying.
Just noting that Pavlik/Taylor II wasn’t a defense.
I thought it crazy that so many people thought Taylor was favourite going into the second fight based on those extra 4 pounds. I could only see Pavlik beating him again.
In retrospect, it can almost be said that Pavlik finished Jermain Taylor.
I preferred Pavlik/Miranda to either Taylor fight also…. but that first one was a cracking fight that never seems to be mentioned as one.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Taylor-Pavlik I was an instant classic and gets plenty of love. It would have won Fight of the Year in a year where there wasn’t Vazquez-Marquez II.
I can’t say I prefer Pavlik-Miranda to that fight. The moment was just so huge, and mostly Pavlik-Miranda was Pavlik beating the shit out of Miranda. It was damn entertaining and I like that fight a lot, too, but it’s not on the same level, IMO.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
"mostly Pavlik-Miranda was Pavlik beating the shit out of Miranda."
Yup… :)
However, Miranda put up a hell of a fight. I remember he was saying before the fight that he wanted to fight Pavlik and Taylor in the same night. Er…. yeah…. good one, Edison…..
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
He's a right bleedin' handful Phil.
He’s that rare breed who can adjust on the fly and present you with different styles. And he’ll sit in the pocket and bang. Pavlik’s got that big right hand but Martinez has enough pop to earn his respect when they get in the trenches. A fast bloody southpaw with great head movement and a full arsenal of punches. Tough night for anyone.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Suss out the Martinez v Paul Williams fight if you can Phil
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
I’d recommend that one, the Alex Bunema fight and Martinez-Cintron to get a handle on Sergio. All three were HBO fights, too, so shouldn’t be terribly hard to find. Maybe.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Apr 7, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
He's certainly not the same fighter that lost to Margarito in 7.... (I think it was 7, anyway...)
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
That was my point.
Come on son, have you just woken up??!!
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Hmmm....
Benefit of the doubt is awarded, mainly cos you’re a fucking excellent poster. :)
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Martinez
Pavlik throws mainly head shots. Martinez has very good head movement and likes to slip head shots then counter to the body. I think he’s way too slick for Pavlik. In the Taylor rematch Taylor moved his head well (though not as well as Martinez) and Pavlik had alot more trouble…I just think Martinez is way too slick and punches hard enough (right hand knockdown against Williams at the end of round one, left hand knockdown/out of Cintron) to keep Pavlik off him…
In the Taylor rematch Taylor moved his head well (though not as well as Martinez) and Pavlik had alot more trouble
I think overall, you maybe could say that Pavlik’s best performance was the Taylor rematch. Taylor got tired late, but overall fought very well, and I thought Pavlik showed a lot more of his game in that fight than he has (or has had to) in any other fight.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
One thing is for sure, if Pavlik can get it done against Martinez, his absymal title reign swings back on track a bit. A good showing against a very good-lefthanded fighter with fast hands would prove things to me about Pavlik that I currently do not believe to be true (such as, “he has a chance against Punisher Paul”). On the other hand, if Martinez takes his title and make Pavlik, Pavlik will need to do some soul-searching about what he wants to do with his career, including shopping for a new corner.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I think Manny Steward would be really good for him.
But isn’t there some kind of issue there?
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Steward trash-talked Pavlik a bit during the run-up to Pavlik-Taylor I. Maybe Pavlik still resents it.
He didn’t really trash talk him. He just “called it like he saw it.” But unlike his double-edged booth wisdom, I recall that Steward really did act genuinely surprised in the post-presser, and admitted he Pavlik surprised him. The word was that Steward later called Pavlik and offered his services, and that Pavlik turned him down flat. My guess would be that Pav, in the heat of the moment, probably did some trash talking of his own. Bet Steward just shrugged. Life goes on.
Ted has said this before, but symbiosis yeah you gotta have it. So far, Kelly Pavlik probably sees the situation as being that Jack Loew and Cam Duncan have gotten him to the lineal middleweight championship, and he’ll remain loyal at least until that changes. Can’t even blame him for that, although I’d argue it’s probably more accurate to say that “Kelly Pavlik got Jack Loew to the lineal middleweight championship.” We’ll see if he can stay there without learning a few new tricks.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I agree that Pavlik got Loew there more than vice-versa.
Someone said recently (might have been you) that Loew won the lottery the day Pavlik walked into his gym. Never a truer word spoken.
This does happen more than occasionally though, doesn’t it? No-one would really know who Billy Graham was if it weren’t for Hatton, Loew would still be completely unknown if it weren’t for Pavlik, I even heard someone say recently that Steward wouldn’t be anything if it weren’t for Hearns, and that Roach, while being regarded as the second coming right now, owes a hell of a lot of that to Manny Pacquaio.
I’m sure there are other, more obvious examples, but I’m having a mental block today.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Ooooh!!
Adam Booth. ’Nuff said.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Say more about Booth
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 16, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Forget it. I get it now.
"If you sit there and watch a person take about an hour to tie his shoestrings, then you realize that whatever problems you got ain't that significant"
---Vernon Forrest 2006
by The Midnight Rambler on Apr 16, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed jrok
I am all for loyalty, but Pavlik’s career has looked dodgy since the Hopkins figt – A Martinez loss give the size difference would be terrible and I think at that point he’d have to change his Team.
What a horrible fluff article without any real objectivity.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Say what you mean... ;)
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
I call it how I see it…
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
And we wouldn't have it any other way. :)
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Someone needs to eat crow

"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Photoshop or insanity?
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Apr 18, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions

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