California rules Cintron will keep the loss from Saturday
This whole Kermit Cintron thing is a mess. From the LA Times:
The executive officer of the California State Athletic Commission has ruled that Kermit Cintron's technical split-decision loss to super-welterweight Paul Williams on Saturday at Carson's Home Depot Center will remain a defeat, although the entire commission can still hear Cintron's appeal at its next meeting in July, a state spokesman said.
Cintron's promoter and manager earlier Monday appealed to Executive Officer George Dodd to change Cintron's loss to a no-contest after the Puerto Rican former world welterweight champion became entangled with Williams and stumbled through the ropes, falling out of the ring and crashing to the floor during the fourth round.
Ringside Dr. Paul Wallace told The Times on Monday that Cintron twice told doctors he was unable to continue because of back pain, prompting Wallace to instruct referee Lou Moret that the fight should be stopped.
So the doctor says Cintron said twice that he could not continue, Cintron says he wasn't speaking due to the wind being knocked out of him. Promoter Lou DiBella is "outraged" and believes this "will have a serious impact on [Cintron's] ability in this business," whatever that means.
I don't think he should have a loss on his record, simply because I don't think three rounds and change is enough to go to to the scorecards. It's just not. They didn't even box for as long as the scheduled time of Butterbean's usual fights.
As for Cintron's "mental fragility," I know some are hesitant to say that a fighter is "faking" anything, or that he "quit," or that he was melodramatic, or whatever. And I know others are very quick to jump the gun and call a guy weak. Trying to be completely unbiased, I have to say it's not the first time that Cintron's mental game has come up. It came up twice with Margarito, and I just really don't want to hear the "well Margarito's a cheater" argument, because even if he was, that has nothing to do with it. Everyone who's worked with Cintron says he's a very emotional guy, and Cintron's manager even has said in the past that Margarito smiling at Cintron's best shots had an emotional impact on Kermit. It came up again with Sergio Martinez. He's got the sticker on him that says he doesn't persevere when things aren't going his way.
Now, that's not exactly the case here. I thought he was winning the fight, and Cintron seemed to, in my view, rightly believe he was doing very well. Williams wasn't looking very good in there, and Paul had just been hurt.
I'm not trying to "call him out" about it. He's heard it, I'm sure. I'm not saying this is the absolute, or even that this is what I think, but truthfully, there doesn't have to be a reason that Cintron would take the literal dive, say he can't continue, and then cry foul after. Some people are just dramatic and weird. All I'm saying is that something's not adding up here. What does the ringside doctor get out of lying about Cintron saying he can't continue?
You can either believe Cintron is cursed or whatever, or you can believe there's something more tangible and real to it than that. I lean toward the latter, frankly, as harsh and mean as that might sound. I won't say I have a good idea exactly what it is, but again, mental fragility has been brought up before with Cintron. This is not new. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense in this specific case, but things don't always make sense. Either way you lean, you have to admit something is askew here.
Still, the California rule is stupid and this fight should have been a no-contest.
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The doctor may just be seeking to cover his ass here
I don’t really feel the need to actually draw a conclusion one way or the other. Either he faked it, and that was silly, or he didn’t and the doctor’s were just being extra cautious, which is really a good thing.
It makes no real difference which side you want to take, the real conclusion is always the same; this rule sucks, and the fight should have been a no contest.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
The doctor may just be seeking to cover his ass here
Just playing devil’s advocate here, but it seems like some folks are willing to stretch for any reason this happened other than Kermit Cintron being remotely at fault. “Manny Steward might be jealous” and “maybe the doctor is trying to cover his ass.” The doctor isn’t playing a card here, he’s flat-out saying Cintron said he couldn’t continue.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on May 11, 2010 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions
The doctor had no motive to quickly stop the fight, since a wrong decision either way puts his ass on the line, and Cintron had no motive to throw himself out of the ring, though his momentum still makes my (non-physicist) eyes boggle. Cintron is at fault for losing his footing horrible. Not at fault enough to merit an L, but that’s my opinion, not CA rules, talking.
by El Destruyo on May 11, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Sc
That was actually meant to kinda be my point. Lots of things might have happened to cause this, but I don’t really care.
Change the rule, get a rematch.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on May 11, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Rematch.
Settle any questions. It’s not like anyone is lining up to fight Williams anyway.
So, do it again. I’ll watch.
Sure, and if Cinton isn’t seriously injured, they can get this thing up in two months. (In another state.)
by El Destruyo on May 11, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep. Goossen Tutor probably needs to give up the ghost. Mayweather and/or Pacquiao are not going to fight Paul Williams. Even if Mayweather-Manny doesn’t happen, Top Rank will match Manny with Margarito back at Cowboys Stadium, and Mayweather will look elsewhere. The fight for Paul right now is a rematch with Cintron or a rematch with Martinez.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on May 11, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
The “mental fragility” argument is a bad argument. Basically, Cintron cried in his first match with Margarito, and that is 100% of the source of his label. In his second fight with Margarito, he was knocked out with a body shot. In the Martinez fight, Cintron acted like a jackass, but did not act “fragile” in any way. The only reason why people think episodes of fragility “keep happening” to Cintron is that those people keep coloring their view of Cintron’s fights through the lens of the time he cried in the ring. If someone who had never seen the first Margarito fight then watched the rest of Cintron’s career, those statements would make very little sense.
As for the doctor, I’m sure he’s telling the truth. But it’s pretty easy to see how a misunderstanding could have arisen.
There’s a lot of mythology in boxing about how everyone deserves what they get and outcomes are decided entirely on the force of will. Teddy Atlas is a prime purveyor of these views. To Teddy, if a fighter loses, the explanation is always that he didn’t “behave like a fighter” and persevere. Sometimes that stuff is true, and it’s healthy for fighters to convince themselves that these things are true when they’re in the ring. But boxing is subject to as much fortuity, irrationality, and groupthink as any other field. It’s comforting to look at someone else and think any bad fortune he suffers must have been deserved on some level, but sometimes, s**t just happens.
The "mental fragility" argument is a bad argument. Basically, Cintron cried in his first match with Margarito, and that is 100% of the source of his label. In his second fight with Margarito, he was knocked out with a body shot.
That’s not 100% the source of his label, at least not to me. It’s that he seemed to fold in both Margarito fights when he couldn’t hurt Antonio. That’s where the source came from for me as an observer.
The only reason why people think episodes of fragility "keep happening" to Cintron is that those people keep coloring their view of Cintron’s fights through the lens of the time he cried in the ring.
I’m going to respectfully disagree. Frankly, I don’t think Cintron is a “mentally tough” fighter, and I’ve said it before. And if you want to comb through the archives (you don’t have to, ‘cause I’m not lying), I have never once brought up that he cried. That has nothing to do with it. I’ve seen plenty of fighters cry — in pain, in defeat, in victory, in jubilation.
There’s a lot of mythology in boxing about how everyone deserves what they get and outcomes are decided entirely on the force of will. … It’s comforting to look at someone else and think any bad fortune he suffers must have been deserved on some level, but sometimes, s**t just happens.
My own personal view of Cintron, which isn’t as harsh as it might seem here, has nothing to do with boxing mythology. I believe in boxing voodoo about as much as I believe that Derek Jeter Knows How to Win. It’s that I’ve never seen him win a truly tough fight. He’s one of those guys who can look good when everything’s going his way, but I have not yet seen him overcome adversity.
NOW, all that said, and all my personal “eh” feelings about Cintron the fighter aside…
I’m not saying that’s what this was. But come on, something is not adding up. Cintron is insisting that he was unable to communicate and that doctors rushed out a stretcher and hauled him out against his will. The doctor says that Cintron said TWICE that he could not continue. A rematch makes sense on the surface, but there’s something beneath the surface here. I’m interested to know what actually happened, even though we’ll never find out.
And the CA rule is still stupid.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on May 11, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
My guess goes something like this:
1. Kermit flies out of the ring, gets wind knocked out of him.
2. Doctor runs up to him right away: “Can you get up?”
3. Kermit, thinking he’s being asked if he can get up immediately, shakes head, without expecting the doctor to then go and immediately stop the fight.
4. Fight is stopped. Kermit wonders “What happened to my five minutes?” Denies ever saying he couldn’t continue, which is true.
by taco pal on May 11, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn’t say Cintron is unusually tough in the mental department either. I just think he’s about average, or closer to it than his reputation suggests. The Angulo fight got reasonably close at the end, and Cintron pulled it out. That doesn’t make him Micky Ward or anything, but that’s not what I’m saying.
I know people view the second Margarito fight as being evidence of fragility, but I don’t think many of them would have had the same reaction if they’d seen it without first hearing about the crying incident. I’m not saying that’s necessarily the case for you, I’m talking about people in general. Lots of boxers have trouble with pressure fighters. Lots of boxers get knocked out with body shots.
I respectfully disagree
Maybe he’s about average for all boxers, just like maybe Amir Khan’s chin is average for all boxers, but they’re both well below average if you’re just looking at world class guys. Here’s a guy who finds a way to bitch at just about anything. He wilted under pressure twice against Margo. He crapped and moaned when he got cut by Feliciano. He complained his way out of a KO loss against Martinez. There were a couple times when it looked like he might quit against Estrada. Even in fights where he’s been winning, he’s quicker to whine about things than most, and frankly he just seems to have a lower pain threshold than most professional fighters.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I guess I can live with somewhat below-average. Let’s put it this way, I think his reputation is overstated. I also don’t think his reputation, whatever it ought to be, should have a major impact on the way people view last week’s fight. I also don’t think that a propensity to bitch is the same thing as mental fragility. Arthur Abraham bitches more than anyone in boxing, yet is also one of the toughest men in the sport. Those are two separate things. Cintron’s attitude in the Martinez fight was annoying, but conflating that with the entirely separate issue of his “fragility” strikes me as a reach. If anything, it points in precisely the opposite direction – he demanded that the fight continue, not stop, he got his way, and he performed better after the incident than he did before.
Why the hell shouldn't he?
They’re boxers, not spartans.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on May 12, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Kermit has been described as fragile because he has been too often just that!
One bad moment does not make a pattern nor should it. But KC has had a string of them that tell the same story; and stories make patterns. He does not do well under pressure of any kind.
He is by all accounts a great athlete. He can box. He has skills. And he has moments. But when the heat is on, Kermit begins to unravel. Not completely, but nevertheless he seems to crack ever so slightly….and far too often.
Next time HBO and or anyone ships Kermit off to fight under their promotion, they should consider attaching instructions saying: FRAGILE. HANDLE WITH CARE.
If he's so fragile
I’d really like to see you say it to his face.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on May 12, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Gladly....if I have the chance
But I would also tell him the rest of what I think…and said.
Kermit seems smart enough to understand why someone who otherwise admires him for entering the ring against such elite competition would make that statement.
And far more capable of reading (hearing) and responding intelligently to that kind of criticism than some others.
I've been calling him out,
DC, but my promoter (ccampoto@yahoo.com) has an issue with Cintron.
If only she wasn’t holding me back I’d knock Vic D tfo and then make Kermit weep.
Comedy!
More power to you Don. Do you have a boxrec entry?
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on May 13, 2010 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions

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