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Juan Manuel Marquez's career at a delicate stage in 2010

Juan Manuel Marquez wants Manny Pacquiao again, but the likely options are elsewhere. (Photo by Ethan Miller/Getty Images)

There's an interesting little issue developing with Juan Manuel Marquez right now, the world lightweight champion who has not fought since a blowout loss at welterweight to Floyd Mayweather Jr. last September.

Currently, Marquez is set to rematch Juan Diaz on July 31. The two went toe-to-toe in the Fight of the Year for 2009, but the rematch seems to have lukewarm anticipation from fans in general. Many are anxious to see it because the first fight was so great, but there's no question that both fighters lost steam after their brawl. Marquez was handled with ease by Mayweather, which is nothing to be ashamed of in and of itself, but the feeling that he was there simply for money did bother some people. Diaz got a win over Paulie Malignaggi in August, but it was disputed, and much attention was given to Gale Van Hoy's absurd scorecard, giving many the impression that Malignaggi was "robbed" when in reality it was just one terrible scorecard in a competitive fight. Diaz clearly lost the rematch in Chicago in December, looking sluggish through 12 rounds.

So despite the fact that I think Marquez is the best lightweight in the world still (and one of the three best in the sport, pound-for-pound) and that Diaz is still a top three lightweight himself, it's a fight struggling for credibility in a way. There's also the fact that the ending of the first bout was so definitive, that many might wonder, "How is this any different now?" Sure, Marquez has gotten older, but Diaz, at 26, is right on the edge, too. He's put in a pretty damn big workload for a boxer of his age, having fought in 12-rounders now for the last six years, and in 10-rounders since 2002.

But I want to focus right now on Marquez. Marquez is again calling out Manny Pacquiao for a third fight. The two put on classics in 2004 and 2008, the first a draw many felt Marquez deserved to win (and many felt Pacquiao deserved to win), and the second a razor-thin decision for Pacquiao that many felt Marquez deserved to win. They have been great rivals and their fights will have their place in history forever.

Marquez's tactic of choice is the "bawk bawk bawwwwk!" method, as he's trying to insinuate that Pacquiao fears him. I have my doubts about that, and to go along with it, Michael Katsidis is saying pretty much the same thing about Marquez. You will recall that one of the sanctioning bodies mandated Marquez-Katsidis after the Mayweather fight last year. Marquez, according to Katsidis, said he couldn't make 135 pounds anymore. He's now a bit flabbergasted by Marquez fighting Diaz at 135.

The Pacquiao thing is simple, of course, and frankly, it's Marquez looking for another big payday. He knows he's near the end of his career, and I think Marquez is smart enough to want to build himself a nice, fat retirement fund so he's not fighting when he's 40. Do I believe Marquez really thinks he can beat Pacquiao? Probably part of him does, and he has matched up with Pacquiao's style better than anyone, no arguing that. Over 24 rounds against each other they're basically even. They're a phenomenal chess game matchup, at least if chess involved some high-class violence.

But Marquez isn't dumb, and he surely knows that he's pushing himself even at 135, let alone into the 140s where he'd have to fight Pacquiao. The other thing is, Pacquiao doesn't need Marquez at all. Really, I believe the fight is a mismatch at this point in their careers. Marquez is a brilliant fighter all around, but Pacquiao's aggression, speed and power just seems like it would be way too much for JMM now. Marquez would undoubtedly go out fighting like his life was on the line, because when the chips are down, that's how Marquez fights. But I don't see him doing well.

And what of the Katsidis "thing"? It's no secret Katsidis wants Marquez and that he feels shafted by the lightweight champ now. A Pacquiao-Marquez III fight is not going to happen, so maybe Marquez-Katsidis can happen this fall, if Marquez beats Diaz in July. There aren't going to be many other viable options at 135. There'd really be only Humberto Soto (could be a huge show in Mexico if they could all make it work) or Robert Guerrero (could happen, as JMM and Guerrero are both promoted by Golden Boy).

Does Marquez move up to 140 if he beats Diaz? That's my guess. They already talked about a Marquez fight against Amir Khan for May, which didn't happen. They've talked about Marquez against Ricky Hatton, which is increasingly unlikely as the days go by. Marquez-Khan is going to make sense, especially if Freddie Roach sees notable slowing down in Marquez that he thinks Khan can take advantage of, and with Khan's speed, length, and tremendous jab, that's a tough assignment for even someone as smart, tough and wily as Marquez.

Juan Manuel Marquez is at an interesting point. His fight with Diaz is no gimme, but I don't think it's a stretch to say most expect him to win, and that a Diaz victory would be a pretty big upset. But what then? He wants the biggest glory and money fight there is for him, the Pacquiao bout. But that's not likely. So we're looking at Katsidis, maybe Guerrero, likely not Soto, and then you have the Khan fight, which I think is going to just make too much sense to be passed up a second time this year. My money's on Khan and Marquez getting it on late this year, with Amir maybe taking another fight this summer in the meantime.

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I think Marquez is going to punish Diaz this time. And I would love to see him take on Khan afterwards.that would be an awesome fight.

by LJchamp on May 18, 2010 10:42 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

After this one, it's all down hill unless he fights guys like Diaz and Campbell.

Good, so it can’t go any deeper – Arturo Gatti after being told he was cut to the bone

by The Midnight Rambler on May 18, 2010 10:44 AM EDT reply actions  

No campbell should not fight anymore..I think he really has nothing left.

by LJchamp on May 18, 2010 10:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

He will though

Just out of bankruptcy, and he has lots of mouths to feed. He’ll probably go on for another year or two at least.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on May 18, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Even without a further slide

Khan is a bad matchup for Khan. Marquez couldn’t deal with Mayweather’s reach and speed, how is he going to deal with Khan’s? Marquez probably barely lays a finger on him.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on May 18, 2010 10:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Khan is a bad matchup for Marquez, rather

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on May 18, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Good, so it can’t go any deeper – Arturo Gatti after being told he was cut to the bone

by The Midnight Rambler on May 18, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

It might be a bad match up but I would love to watch khan dominate him.

by LJchamp on May 18, 2010 10:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Why? To quote Manny Steward, this is the whole reason why we have weight classes.

by taco pal on May 18, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Really?!

Do you have something against Marquez?
I’ve never enjoyed watching faded legends getting beaten up by the young, fresh up and comer. Especially not if the fight is at least one division above where the old faded legen is most comfortable.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 18, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if Diaz beats Marquez in the rematch. That said, I don’t much interest in seeing it. We already know what happens both fighters are at or near their best: Marquez wins. All of the drama for this fight is from the uncertainty of now knowing whether one guy or the other has faded. I don’t find that appealing.

I’d much rather see Marquez fight Katsidis and Diaz fight another top lightweight. Maybe even in a doubleheader or something.

by taco pal on May 18, 2010 10:56 AM EDT reply actions  

s/b “uncertainty of not knowing…”

by taco pal on May 18, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Khan fighting Marquez at 140

would be a real shame. There are a whole bunch of legitimate 140 pounders for Khan to fight, but Marquez ain’t one of them.

by The Boxer Rebellion on May 18, 2010 10:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Indeed

I would much rather Khan took on another top 5 junior welter, both from the point of view of wanting to see the best matchup for Khan and the same for Marquez.
Khan vs Alexander of Bradley would be excellent to watch, and a very even bout. Marquez really has no business fighting at Junior welter as he looks over his best weight at 135.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 18, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

only very quasi-related

and maybe I just missed news on this before, but it looks like Bradley is going to fight Abregu now:

http://www.fightnews.com/Boxing/bradley-abregu-back-on-46094

by The Boxer Rebellion on May 18, 2010 11:03 AM EDT reply actions  

Not surprising

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on May 18, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

And it looks like Alexander is going to fight Kotelnik or Prescott (doing a great job of living off of that Khan KO) in August. If Khan takes a fight in July/August, and Maidana gets healthy (anyone heard anything?), then all four should be free in the latter part of the year/early 2011 to fight one another. If they want to, that is.

by The Boxer Rebellion on May 18, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good article. Marquez is not a 140-lb fighter. Neither is Diaz. They are both fat above 135 (Diaz is even fairly chunky AT Lightweight). Marquez is a natural Featherweight who can be no more than a Lightweight at this point in his career. The Mayweather fight was a dumb farce, yeah, but honestly a Khan fight would also be a farce. Even Hatton-Marquez at 140 would be a farce, and I’m not sure Hatton has anything left at all. Maybe a rematch with Cassie at 140 would be okay… both guys fighting over their best weight and years, but I think Cassie is at the end of the line too and might even have trouble making that weight now. Marquez-Katsidis at 135 would be fine, too.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on May 18, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions  

Forget Diaz, Marquez vs. Pac., @ 140 with full blood tests

This would make big money. There would be serious attention: 1. Pac testing would create a major buzz 2) Marquez vs Pac. were so evenly in their first 2 fights and that would be marketed like crazy, as a rubber match…. If Pac. prevails impressively, I predict tko, then he has serious leverage vs. Mayweather. This is almost a no brainer.

by sthomas on May 18, 2010 11:05 AM EDT reply actions  

It would still be a big fight

But the question is whether Golden Boy will let Pacquiao face another one of their fighters if he can’t work out a deal with Floyd.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on May 18, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

very good point

Purely as a fan, while I don’t want to see Marquez-Manny III, I find it infinitely more palatable than Manny-Margarito. It’s also probably a 1M-1.3M pay per view fight, so it makes economic sense also.

by The Boxer Rebellion on May 18, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

You know...if Manny took the tests and fought Marquez,

I would be willing to bet big money that Floyd would find another reason to avoid the fight. GBP is the hurdle, as Brickhaus says, but man…that would be the ultimate chess counter-move by Pacquiao to Lil Floyd’s insistence on testing.

I wanna see Manny campaign (hahaha..haha….ha…) for that now.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on May 20, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

marquez moving up another pound let alone 5 is foolish. hes already a blown up featherweight fighting at lightweight. if he gets past bitch tits for a second time and fights katsidis, katsidis will knock him out.

"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston

.

by sonofapsycho on May 18, 2010 11:06 AM EDT reply actions  

Most likely

I’m not sure if he has the punch resistance to take many of Katsidis’ punches, and he will have to take them, a lot.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 18, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

JMM - Manny 3

That would be a Huge Fight in Dallas or Vegas!! Soto vs Katsidis, Kahn vs Maidana

by rgb on May 18, 2010 11:31 AM EDT reply actions  

SC, speaking last year
JMM would rock Khan out hard and fast. It’s nothing against Khan, either, just that he’s horribly matched with JMM, no matter what his size advantage is

Still hold that opinion?

by thirdslip on May 18, 2010 12:07 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m guessing that since then, Scott has seen Juan’s 142lb welterweight disaster and thought different of it. Which makes sense, really. It’s one thing to imagine what JMM might look like fighting that high, but seeing it in action is different. He looked absolutely awful up there, lacking both speed and power.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on May 18, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. Marquez is going to be mediocre over 135, and Khan was even better against Paulie than he was Kotelnik. I don’t see JMM getting past that jab or breaking down the speed and size advantages anymore. I thought then he could, but now absolutely do not. I think Khan would rout him and bust him up.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on May 18, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

I thought it would be a tremendous match up at the time, and it’s still got plenty of merit as a contest, but the way Marquez looked against Mayweather – physically, more than anything – has made me wonder about how competitive he could be at such a high weight.

The Diaz rematch will hopefully reaffirm his skills and standing at lightweight, but if he struggles with that, and then moves up to light welterweight again, we might have seen the last of JMM as an elite fighter

by thirdslip on May 18, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kahn vs maidana needs to Happen. I think Maidana would K’O Kahn.

by rgb on May 18, 2010 1:08 PM EDT reply actions  

I doubt he hits him anywhere near the chin even once

But then again, it would proabably only need to be once.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 18, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I doubt he hits him anywhere near the chin even once

Khan gets hit. Paulie marked him up a bit. He ain’t Mayweather. And Maidana isn’t fast by any means, but he’s not so unbelievably, cartoon-level slow that he literally cannot hit Khan.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on May 18, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am taking range as a considerable factor here

Also I, unlike you, don’t think Maidana is very good. He is slower than paulie, and doesn’t have the same level of boxing skills. I do accept that he wouldn’t have to land much at all, but I genuinely believe that Khan could keep him at bay with his powerful jab.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 18, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Khan’s chin were anything other than awful. I’d agree with you. I just think Maidana is a nightmare matchup for him, because he has no margin for error in the fight. Maidana hits like a truck for a guy at 140, and unless Khan has a perfect fight in him, he winds up seeing stars the moment that Maidana gets to him.

Also beware, as SC, myself, and others may come knocking at your door for suggesting Maidana isn’t very good. Just wanted to give you a heads up.

by The Boxer Rebellion on May 18, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hehe

Khan has superb discipline so may actually be able to pull of that mistakless fight! Anyway, he would definitely get crushed by Maidana’s punches, no argument there!

Let’s just hope we actually get to see such a cool fight!

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 18, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I really want to see that fight.

by The Boxer Rebellion on May 18, 2010 8:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Khan would re-tool the gameplan against someone like Maidana.

Against Paulie, he knew with absolute certainty that he wasn’t in danger of getting KO’d, so he left his chin in there more than he ‘should’ have. Against a more dangerous fighter, he’d sharpshoot from range almost exclusively and use the patented Freddy Footwork to maintain the positional advantage.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on May 20, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paulie hit him some on the side of the head, but HBO’s Punch Zone stats said he only hit Khan’s chin one time in the fight.

by taco pal on May 18, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think a single shot to the body would probably do. Victor Cayo certainly isn’t an elite guy at this point, but that body shot was just nasty. Maidana chopped that guy down like a tree in the 6th round.

by The Boxer Rebellion on May 18, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

They’re a phenomenal chess game matchup, at least if chess involved some high-class violence.

Nice quote, the whole chess game thing really does get rather mis-used in boxing!

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 18, 2010 1:20 PM EDT reply actions  

I dunno about that...

Your pawns are kind of like your body toughness/durability. Without them, your game-changers like the Rook (chin), Bishop (speed), Knights (defense/counters) and Queen (power) get exposed and taken apart piece by piece.

And chess is certainly a not-so-thickly-veiled metaphor for warfare, like boxing. A good chess match gets the competitive juices going just like a good boxing match.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on May 20, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't really see any tactical or really solid

Theoretical comparisons which can be drawn. As far as I can see, people think lots in chess, and if a boxing match involves an above average degree of thinking people shout “chess match!”. However, the actual thought processes involced in each are so different that I’ve never been fond of the phrase being used this way.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 21, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I've always viewed it as a good comparison for pretty much any competitive event

that requires dangerous amounts of effort to participate in. In a boxing match you have to give something in order to advance your position, for example JMM has to eat a few Pacquiao punches to the face in order to unleash his own counterattack. He knows he can’t get off first most of the time, so he has to sacrifice (a pawn?) in order to get a clear line of attack on something he wants to take away (a bishop?).

Because in any competitive event, whether it’s football, or baseball (yes, I said baseball), or a combat sport you have a limited amount of ammunition with which to wage the war. It’s not about simply removing what your opponent has, it’s about endangering your own resources in an effort to cause greater damage to your opponent than you are receiving.

But in general, I’ll agree with you that the “Chess Match!” shouts are almost always uttered for an improper/poor reason. It’s an old cliche that got embedded in our modern sports journalists who are trying to show how refined and edumacated they are. But I do think that in some respects, it makes good sense to draw the comparison when viewing a conflict as a whole.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on May 21, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well put

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 22, 2010 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Marquez-Soto should be the fight that should of been made. But I got no problem with the current Marquez-Diaz match up. It’s a good come back fight for Marquez. Should allow him and others to get a read on what exactly he has left. The first one was also fight of the year. So it’s not to hard of a sell. It’s also a better fight than some of the other options. Marquez-Con shows exactly how little faith his handlers really have in Con’s chin. They are determined to keep him away from anybody capable of hurting him. While at the same time try to push him as an elite fighter. The fact that some of the public is falling for it shows how little knowledge they really have in the sport. Marquez-Katsidis? I think it would be a fairly easy fight for Marquez. Katsidis is just crude. Kasitdis has no room to complain. In Diaz Marquez is facing the fighter who beat Katsidis pretty much without much problems. So his opinion carries no weight

If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.

by Violent Demise on May 18, 2010 2:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Agree with the above. Katsidis is an easy fight for JMM.

by shaykh on May 18, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think Katsidis is an easy fight for anybody at this point, as he’s going to stalk you until a) he knocks you out or b) you knock him out. That level of pressure never makes for an easy fight. With that said, I do think Marquez is crafty enough to win were they to meet.

Maybe Katsidis should go up to 140 and fight Maidana, which would be an epic slugfest destined to last no more than 3 rounds.

by The Boxer Rebellion on May 18, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

He is a monster

Good, so it can’t go any deeper – Arturo Gatti after being told he was cut to the bone

by The Midnight Rambler on May 18, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

JMM’s career will end when Baby Bull annihilates him in 7 rounds

Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD

by battle axe of doom on May 18, 2010 2:32 PM EDT reply actions  

7?

Try 4!!!

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 18, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pending retirement

Its pretty sad, that a once proud Mexican warrior, Juan Manuel Marquez a truly elite counter-puncher is now basically begging Pacquiao for another fight.

Unfortunately, Marquez optimum fighting weight is likely at 135lbs. If he fights, Pacquiao (and that is a BIG IF) at 140 or more, we know what happened (i.e. during the Mayweather fight) – he is slow, very slow, which is why he got tagged by Money May almost at will. If you extrapolate and consider the bulk-up/slow moving Marquez and the power shots of Pacquiao (and his considerable speed at 140 – 147 lbs), he will finally be KO’d definitively. As they say, be careful what you wish for, all the grand-standing, all the negative comments against Pac . . may result to a vicious RETIREMENT! (i.e. as in KO within two to three rounds).

To some degree, Marquez should be thankful to Pac, one reason why he is rated very highly in the various P4P lists is because of the tremendous battles these two ring warriors had. However, clearly Marquez is on a decline (i.e. due to age, plenty of ring wars) . . there is no shame in that. All the elite fighters eventually have their days numbered . . and hopefully, Marquez will realize that. He has earned enough money . . recognize as one of the best boxers Mexico has produced . . lots of memorable ring wars . . its time to look for reasonable farewell fights, rather than get inside the ring with plenty of risk on the line (its not worth it).

by Conscience on May 18, 2010 5:00 PM EDT reply actions  

To some degree, Marquez should be thankful to Pac

To some degree Pacquiao should be thankful to the judges for not giving him the 2 losses he should of received against Marquez

If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.

by Violent Demise on May 18, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

you mean the judges robbed pacman out of two victories instead of giving him the one

Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD

by battle axe of doom on May 18, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you like I can mail you DVD copies of both fights so you can finally watch them.

If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.

by Violent Demise on May 18, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL.

I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.

by Loot on May 18, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stop being an ass VD, they were really close fights that were really tough decisions. In the first fight, it could have been waived off in the first round by the ref without too many complaints from either side.

by Waldo Rastel on May 18, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh Marquez would have complained. He usually does. (I say with full respect for both Marquez brothers that they’re not exactly the strong, silent type.)

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on May 18, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I meant the supporters of each fighter when I said side. Should have clarified what I meant by side.

by Waldo Rastel on May 18, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I got what you meant. No way you could’ve meant Juan. Smoke would have shot out of my man’s ears while he explained at 200 words per second how there was an international conspiracy to steal round 11 from him.

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on May 18, 2010 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Huh? I don’t know what round 11 has to do with the fight being called off in round 1? Are you implying that JMM was going to win the fight after round 1? Generally confused by what you are getting at and simply asking questions.

by Waldo Rastel on May 18, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look, it’s all very complicated and technical… or maybe I just accidentally hit the “1” key twice instead of once. :)

"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic

by jrok on May 18, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think Jrok was going for

Marquez’s complaints being so wild that he would have moaned about round 11 after being kayoed in round one.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 18, 2010 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ha!

Nice.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on May 20, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the first fight, it could have been waived off in the first round by the ref without too many complaints from either side.

There was no reason to stop the fight.. The 3 knock down rule wasn’t in effect. Marquez went down 3 times. But it’s not like he took a bad beating in the round. He just went down 3 times. And each time he got up. Cuz that’s what champions do. He took the best Pacquiao had to offer. Weathered round 1. Lost round 2 as he got himself all the way back. Adjusted. And proceeded to win the next 10 rounds. He should of got the win.

If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.

by Violent Demise on May 18, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

A lot of fights get waived after 3 knockdowns anyway

I don’t think that would have been the right thing to do in this case, but it would have been defensible.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 18, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would put money that a less experienced ref would have called that fight. If big LC was in there I don’t see that fight going past round 1.

by Waldo Rastel on May 18, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

All the top refs would of let it go on

If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.

by Violent Demise on May 18, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you think there are more than 10 top refs? Honestly.

by Waldo Rastel on May 18, 2010 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

When did I say there was that many? But that’s besides the point. Marquez-Pacquiao was a big fight that was going to have a top/experienced ref handling it. And that ref did his job. He didn’t panic and let the fight go on

If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.

by Violent Demise on May 18, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish that boxing always worked that way, but I know that it doesn’t. A top ref doesn’t always ref top-level fights. I want to agree with you so much, i really really wish I could but the realist knows that I can’t.

by Waldo Rastel on May 19, 2010 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Eh

They were close fights.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on May 18, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, and when fights are THAT close and THAT entertaining,

both fighters come out better for it career-wise. The differences between the two are almost entirely stylistic, with Manny being the flurry-based offensive machine and Marquez being the truly elite, stick-your-chin-in-there-as-bait-for-the-hook counterpunching machines of the last decade.

Careers are generally harder for the counter-fighters (or at least for those fighters that the public PERCEIVES to be counter-fighters) than for the aggressive guys like Manny. It’s easy to market Manny when he’s got a few highlight reel slobberknockers like Hatton or those insane speed flurries against DLH. Marquez just doesn’t have the sexy two second clips like that.

Which is kind of a shame, because it truly is/was a pleasure to watch JMM do his thing during his prime. I’ve always enjoyed watching the take-three-to-give-two-back-even-harder counter-fighters like him.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on May 20, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm just proud to be here.

Good, so it can’t go any deeper – Arturo Gatti after being told he was cut to the bone

by The Midnight Rambler on May 18, 2010 9:54 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Marquez is an incredible fighter

but his legs are not the same at 135 and above. HE would get destroyed by Pacquiao at 140. His fights vs Casamayor/Diaz at 135 were very close fights. If you go back to his fights before he moved to 135 you can see that his legs were much more stable.

by GoldenSt8OfMind on May 19, 2010 12:47 PM EDT reply actions  

The Casa fight is really underrated, IMO. Very good fight between two guys who weren’t their best, but were still pretty goddamn good, and they constantly tried to outmaneuver each other. I had it a draw when Marquez stopped him. Probably going to go down as Casamayor’s last stand for all intents and purposes.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on May 19, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Everything Casamayor

Generally gets a bit under rated IMO. How high, if high at all, did he ever get p4p wise?

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 20, 2010 6:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve had him as high as 4th. But that was on my personal list. And awhile back. Very underrated fighter who deserves Hall of Fame induction.

Damn shame Joel Casamayor-Floyd Mayweather never happened at 130.

If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.

by Violent Demise on May 20, 2010 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Back then

Casa may well have roughed him up a lot and got the win.

"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey

by Drunken cutman on May 20, 2010 7:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Agree with this.

Casa was hell for awhile there.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on May 20, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

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