Who is #1 pound for pound?
by Brickhaus on May 2, 2010 3:10 PM EDT
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PrintBefore his "retirement" after the Hatton fight, Floyd Mayweather Jr. was rated as the number one pound for pound fighter in the world. After his retirement, Manny Pacquiao became #1 by default, but he went on a tear, moving up three weight classes and defeating Oscar de la Hoya (more convincingly than Mayweather), Ricky Hatton (more convincingly than Mayweather), Miguel Cotto and Joshua Clottey. Since Mayweather returned from retirement, he defeated Juan Manuel Marquez , who was much smaller than Mayweather, but was the #2 pound for pound fighter in the world. Last night, he dominated Shane Mosley, a true welterweight who was in the top 5 pound for pound.
After last night's performance, who do you have #1, and did that change after last night's performance?
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i had pacman clear #1 before the mosley fight, but PBF’s dismantling of mosley bumps him up to co#1 for me
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on May 2, 2010 3:29 PM EDT reply actions
I'm with you
While Pacman matched up better with the 147 version of DLH and the stupid aggression of Hatton, I think the 154 DLH and the undefeated Hatton were perhaps better challenges to Floyd. I’m also convinced that Money could have clowned the post-Margarito Cotto (while probably not stopping him) and his performance last night was just sublime
Me too. Manny has to step up now.
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on May 2, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Manny has to step up now! Are you well?
That’s all he’s done, ever, in his whole damn career. Even his fights which could be considered soft options, and they are few and far between, were usually combined wih big hikes in weight which are remarkably impressive.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on May 3, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Very well, thanks.
I don’t argue he’s always stepped up but PBF’s performance leaves it up to Manny to ‘step up’ again! Okay? BTW, in case you’re wandering, I rate Manny and loathe PBF.
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on May 3, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
That's fine by me
I like watching them box. Crazy, I know. Seriously though, I was understandably shocked that someone would be criticising pacquiao of needing to step up, after the huge challenges he has consistently taken throughout his career.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on May 3, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
No criticism at all.
It’s only that PBF’s last performance was relatively impressive (Moseley is an old fighter) and has just edged Manny as P4P. FOR NOW!
Even should Manny lose to Floyd I wouldn’t automatically rate him over Manny P4P as Manny is a naturally smaller man. That, after all, is what Pound-for Pound is about.
Don't tell me I play bum notes - I KNOW!
by Randy Loathsome on May 3, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
“Even should Manny lose to Floyd I wouldn’t automatically rate him over Manny P4P as Manny is a naturally smaller man. That, after all, is what Pound-for Pound is about.”
This I agree with. Completely.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Right....
I agree with this (re- Mayweather beating Manny), but sinceFloyd IS the naturally bigger man, I don’t think that necessarily makes him #1 P4P.
To push it to an extreme, if Ivan Calderon packed on a couple of stone and fought Maidana at 140, I’d expect Maidana to batter him. But that win on its own wouldn’t qualify Maidana as being a better P4P fighter.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
That isn't really an entirely fair comparison
If Calderon had already climbed several divisions, and soundly beaten a few top 5 junior welters, then I sure as hell would rate Maidana if he battered him!
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on May 4, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I was deliberately pushing it to an extreme.
But the principle is sound. Manny IS the smaller man, naturally. Floyd beating him H2H doesn’t necessary mean he is better P4P. He could be, but that one fight isn’t necessarily the definitive factor in the debate.
I suppose what I’m saying is, Floyd has a 5 inch reach, and a 2 inch height advantage. Just because Manny has bulked up to the weight, doesn’t mean he is AS natural at welter as Floyd is. Manny IS the smaller man, no matter if they fight at 140, 147, or a catchweight of 187.735292.
I suppose I find P4P an ambiguous term, is all. Calderon chucking on weight and fighting between 140 and 147 wouldn’t make him a natural welter, and he’d still be a whole lot smaller than… Mosley, for example. When asking who the best fighter is regardless of size, weight isn’t the only factor that I think should be considered. If Manny’s frame was scaled up so that his height and reach were similar to Floyd’s, and then he boiled down/bulked up to 147, he’d be as natural as Floyd is at the weight, regarding frame etc. And then I think he’d batter Floyd all over the place. However, a naturally bigger man (Floyd) beating a man who is actually smaller than him (Manny) does not mean he is better P4P in my eyes.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
That's a very interesting way of looking at it
And one I shall have to think about.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on May 4, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Another thing:
Some guys boil down a whole lot more.
This can result in a welterweight fight on the night between a guy weighing 160 and a guy weighing 148.
This shows that size in the ring has a lot more to do with frame than is often considered. If Floyd fights Manny, I’d be willing to bet my house that Floyd comes in heavier on fight night by at least 4 or 5 pounds, and it wouldn’t shock me if they came in at a disparity similar to 156/148 in favour of Floyd.
Manny is realistically as high as he can go. Floyd could and has been higher, which practically proves that he is naturally the bigger man.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
If you want further proof of this idea:
http://www.badlefthook.com/2010/5/2/1454950/mayweather-martinez
Two of the guys whose opinions I respect more than almost anyone regarding boxing (SC and Brick) both think Mayweather can challenge and/or beat top guys at 154 and even 160.
There is no way… NO WAY…. that anyone says that stuff about Manny. Not because he’s no good, but because he’s too small. Pacquiao would look like a child next to Pavlik, but Brick is sure Floyd stands a chance against Pavlik and/or Martinez.
Full respect to Floyd if he beats Manny, but I maintain Manny can/could lose that fight and still be arguably the best P4P fighter in the sport.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Very well argued
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on May 4, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Merry Go Around
Hard to say- Mayweather beat Mosley who beat Margarito who beat Cotto who beat Mosley, but lost to Pacquiao. To complicate matters, Cotto’s loss to Margarito has an asterisk next to it.
At this point, I’d say they’re co-number 1’s like when Ali and Frazier both had claims to be heavyweight champion of the world before Ali-Frazier I.
Honestly, I don’t think we ought to argue about who is really #1. It’s intriguing, but all conjecture and kind of silly when it can be settled by them both simply lacing up and fighting. Perhaps if we all view them as co-#1’s and refuse to declare one better than the other they’ll get the message, set aside the bs and settle it in the ring like they should. Until then, I’d rather focus on guys actually fighting one another.
The thing is this: either can be your choice for #1, IMO, and it’s very defensible. I’m debating it in my head and finding arguments for both. And good arguments, too. But the best part is that we have two fighters this good, and we can HAVE this argument. Of course the conclusion is that they have to fight.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Agreed
This is a unique time. When has there ever been another time when the two top pound-for-pound fighters were from the same weight division and could therefore settle the question by fighting?
by AsianSensation on May 2, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Hearns-Leonard I was the last time.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on May 2, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
A friend of mine suggests that Hopkins/De La Hoya was the last time.
I’m not saying I agree, but in your opinion, was Hearns/Leonard definitely the last time?
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
by Scott Christ on May 5, 2010 5:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I want to thank you for giving me a chance to do that, btw.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on May 5, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ll be keen in the future to give you more opportunities to link that, as its AWESOME. But yeah, wasn’t Whitaker-Chavez 1 vs. 2?
It was indeed. They were 1-2 from 1990 through 1993 by the Ring’s rankings. So that’s a duh from me.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on May 5, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Man, if Floyd hadn’t not fought in 2008, we’d be talking about a Manny-Floyd fight (possibly) where the 1-2 guys from 2006-present would be fighting. That’s crazy.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on May 5, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
this will never, ever
get old.
Someone needs to create a “Top 10 BLH inside joke/shtick” fanpost. This is top 5 quality stuff.
by The Boxer Rebellion on May 5, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
i heard that chad johnson was going to fight bernad pacquiao later this year
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on May 5, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
You're a funny bloke... :)
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
(I don’t mean to sound aggressive here, but) Who the fuck had Oscar de la Hoya ranked #2 P4P in the Hopkins fight? He had just lost again to Shane Mosley and “beaten” Felix Sturm. His last win before Hopkins was Yori Boy Campas.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
In fact Oscar wasn’t even top 10 at that point. B-Hop was largely considered No. 1, Floyd was up at No. 2, and then there was Tszyu, Wright, Pacquiao, Marquez, Barrera, Morales, Glen Johnson, Tarver…
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on May 5, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Well you may not mean to sound aggressive
But I certainly told him in no uncertain terms that I wasn’t happy that Oscar had ever been as high as #2.
Oscar is… ahem… not my favourite fighter.
I thought it worth a mention, is all.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
he had just “lost” to shane mosley and “beaten” felix sturm.
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on May 5, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Oscar-Mosley was a lot closer than Oscar-Sturm.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
yeah it was close, but i still don’t think there is any way mosley should have won either fights. just like pavlik-martinez was close, but with a clear winner.
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on May 5, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I see Golota Guy signed on to vote “Other” for the P4P best. Foul Andy is patiently waiting in the wings, ready to pounce like a lion and explode like a hand grenade…
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I assumed it was BAOD voting for Juan Diaz :-0
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
It was Chad Dawson voting there
The guy feels left out!
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on May 3, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It was me. You idiots are all overlooking Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Only because Faruq Saleem lost
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I saw the fight where he lost in Manchester, NH. i THINK i MOGHT BE ABLE TO HANDLE HIM
This has been the most life-affirming thing for me, to know you're valued and then show your resolve to not just curl up and die,
--Nick Charles
by The Midnight Rambler on May 4, 2010 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Manny was and is Numero Uno
This has been the most life-affirming thing for me, to know you're valued and then show your resolve to not just curl up and die,
--Nick Charles
by The Midnight Rambler on May 4, 2010 9:32 PM EDT reply actions
Ted, the last p4p list i saw from you had PBF #1. explain plz
Texans 19-0 in 2010-2011 season PERIOD
by battle axe of doom on May 5, 2010 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Manny ducked Yuri, Yuri has atomic bombs for fists, therefore, Yuri is P4P number 1.
by tichbou on May 5, 2010 1:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I make you right.
*Chaos heads off to the P4P thread to revise his list to correct the flagrant mistake of leaving out Yuri Foreman….
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
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