Poll: Worst referees
by Brickhaus on Jun 10, 2010 1:20 PM EDT
in Boxing Commentary & Opinion
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With no major fights this weekend, it's been a slow news week, so this is more of a discussion piece than anything. Stemming from the conversation in the last Mandatory Eight Count thread, who do you think is the worst referee out there? Here are a few nominees - this is far from being a comprehensive list, so feel free to add your own nominees in the comments. Also, feel free to discuss any older referees who might put some of these guys to shame.
Laurence Cole - If it's the referee's job to be inobtrusive, then Cole does his job the least of anyone out there. The premier referee in Texas, he makes himself known in the fight and isn't hesitant to insert himself into the action. One of the most blatant examples was the first fight between Chris John and Rocky Juarez, where whenever the two started to fight inside, he would literally grab one of their arms to try and make them fight a little further apart. In addition, while he's been improving in this regard, he often visibly has bad angles, which lead to his not being able to see the action as well as a referee should.
Joe Cortez - Probably the biggest "celebrity" of the referees here, he's known not only for his "fair but firm" catchphrase, but also for his somewhat controversial handling of a number of fights. The biggest hubbub probably came from his handling of the fight between Humberto Soto and Francisco Lorenzo. With Soto beating Lorenzo from pillar to post and looking like a bloody mess, Lorenzo got knocked down and a Soto punch grazed his head. Cortez fell for a masterful acting job by Lorenzo, and disqualified Soto.
Arthur Mercante Jr. - Son of the legendary referee Arthur Mercante Sr., Mercante Jr. takes some flack because of his inability to hold a candle to his father, as well as for his handling of the actual bouts. The impetus of this post, his handling of Cotto-Foreman has been debated, taking the rare move of restarting a fight after the towel had been thrown in. He was also the referee in Khalid Jones vs. Beethaeven Scottland, a mismatch that never should have been sanctioned to begin with that resulted in the latter fighter's death.
Jay Nady - Nady's placement here may be a bit more controversial than the others on this list. He's more of a polarizing figure than anything - well-liked by some fans, and thought to be the worst referee out there by some others, mostly as a result of his style and decisionmaking process. The most prominent fight where he took criticism probably came in the bout between Tito Trinidad and Fernando Vargas, where few will argue that he let the fight go on for too long. Since then, he's been criticized for giving the hook too quickly in more recent fights. His handling of other bouts, such as Rahman-Maskaev and Taylor-Hopkins, has also been somewhat debated.
Randy Neumann - Neumann has been on the wrong side of a number of controversial officiating jobs. The most prominent probably came several years ago in the first fight between Arthur Abraham and Edison Miranda, a fight that many thought Miranda only lost because of the officiating. In addition to docking five points from Miranda (some but not all of which were warranted), when Abraham broke his jaw, he not only gave Abraham time to recover, but he actually let the medical team work on him while he was recovering. He's also notorious for his inconsistency in calling fouls or letting fights go - some other fights he officiated include Wladimir Klitschko against Samuel Peter, Arturo Gatti versus Leonard Dorin and Sven Ottke against Glen Johnson.
Terry O'Connor - In an era where referees seem to be giving quicker and quicker hooks, O'Connor's hook is one of the quickest. Maybe the most notable instance of this came in his stoppage of the bout between Joe Calzaghe and Peter Manfredo Jr. However, he's also had a number of other controversies, including recently naming Tyson Fury a wide winner over Big John McDermott.
Roger Tilleman - Some referees may be accused of showing favoritism, which may be a far worse crime in refereeing than pure incompetence. Tilleman's most prominent gaffe came in the fight Sven Ottke and Robin Reid, where Tilleman docked Reid a point for having the temerity to actually punch Ottke in the face. Fortunately, while Tilleman continues to judge fights, he hasn't stepped into the ring as a referee since 2006, and he was not allowed to referee any more major fights after the Ottke-Reid debacle.
Marlon B. Wright - The most prominent of the Montreal referees, Wright is unfortunately best known for his botched handling of the end of the first fight between Lucian Bute and Librado Andrade. He has also refereed fights without incident such as both fights between Jean Pascal and Adrian Diaconu, Juan Urango vs. Herman Ngoudjo and Lucian Bute against Alejandro Berrio.
Special honorable mention goes to Alfredo Garcia Perez, who performed the single worst officiating job I've ever seen with his absurd handling of Danny Williams vs. Konstantin Airich. Fortunately, that appears to be the only major fight he's refereed and he's more typically a judge, so he probably doesn't warrant placement in the poll.
A few other referees with somewhat spotty records: Raul Caiz Jr., Frank Cappuccino, Stanley Christodoulou (a hall of fame referee who has slid as he has aged), Frank Santore Jr., Jorge Alonso, Mickey Vann, Dave Parris, Richard Steele (yet another polarizing figure with both supporters and detractors) and Les Fear.
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FWIW
For me, Cole is still the worst. He’s never made a decision that’s put anyone’s life in danger, but he’s just a bad referee for someone so prominent. Most of the others I feel are just more spotty than anything – some good days, some bad days. Heck, I even think Wright is a GOOD referee who just had one really big, really prominent mistake. I’ve seen about a dozen fights he’s refereed now, and I’ve thought he’s handled most of them very well.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Cole for me too
His reffing in Pacquiao – Barrera I was astoundingly bad, and that’s just typical for him. In the past I have defended him a bit, believing that his incoimpetence was being overstated, now I have totally reconsidered that.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t even hold the Bute-Andrade against Marlon that much. It was lame, but it didn’t change the result. There were only five seconds left when he went down, so all he had to do was stand. I don’t really think he belongs on the list.
Now, a guy who I really think DOES belong on the list is Dave Parris. The man is so rotten, he singlehandedly moves the line when he is announced.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Good call
Forgot about him.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Who was that Panamanian dude who ref’d Froch-Dirrell? He was horrible. But maybe he isn’t prominent enough to belong here.
That was Hector Afu. He’s done a bunch of championship fights and eliminators, and I’ve never noticed anything horrible about him before and since. But then again, I’ve never seen anyone in his ring throw as many rabbit punches as Froch did before.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Special honorable mention goes to Alfredo Garcia Perez, who performed the single worst officiating job I’ve ever seen with his absurd handling of Danny Williams vs. Konstantin Airich.
It’s up there for me too. It was comically bad. I kept expecting someone would run into the ring and clobber him with a folding chair. And then, I was praying for that to happen. The tape situation was one of the most bizzarre things I’ve ever seen in a ring. It was like Perez wasn’t just incompetent and clueless as a ref, but also generally as a human being.
I guess that fight is only funny to watch because no one got badly hurt.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Would have to check with Scott
Maybe he didn’t get enough of them? Seems like he’s been tied up the last couple weeks though.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
He said he had gotten scores and write-ups from all but one judge, but that was the last I heard of it.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Jun 10, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
But who's the best judge?
That’s an easy one.
""Now gentleman, we went over the rules in the dressing room. I want to caution you to keep the fight clean at all times, protect yourself at all times, and what I say you must obey. Good luck. Touch up." – Kenny “Big Fight” Bayless
Steve Smoger for my money
Bayless is a good one too though.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Cortez?
I like Cortez a lot as he uses a good degree of discretion, and appears to put a lot of consideration into his choices. Bayless is great too, rather comical appearance though.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Bayless and Smoger
are two of the best and most consisitent around today,imo,from what i have seen of them.
I remember thinking Vic Dracula was pretty bad a few years ago but he was quite new to it at that time.Maybe he has got better now (or not?).I haven’t seen him officiate much for quite a while now.
Didn't vote
because I feel less knowledgeable on this than many of you, but I’ll say this much: It seems to me that refs that play up their identity do a worse job than those who just try to inconspicuously do their jobs. I’m sure there are exceptions to this, and obviously a firm hand is necessary in some situations, but even refs that I’ve liked in the past seemed to go downhill once they attained a high level of celebrity. I guess Mercante Sr. would be the clearest exception though I don’t remember his personality intruding on the character of a bout. Maybe that’s what I’m really getting at.
BTW: Cole just seems to be incompetent.
I voted for Cole but i was gonna go for Marlon B.Wright.He must have been paid off in the Bute v Andrade fight.
Terry O'Connor
is another terrible one.He is terribly inept and/or (more likely) corrupt.
I was really disgusted with him after the McDermott v Fury fight.
And Parris...
Don’t forget Dave Parris. O’Connor and Parris take home the big honors on the British side of things.
I guess Wright doesn’t bother me as much because it didn’t change the outcome. But it was still a garbage move.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
jrok.
I think Wright did change the outcome of the first fight.When HBO showed the finish the other week on the Bute v Miranda broadcast,the tv count showed the actual time elapsed was over 10 seconds(about 14 second,i think) by the time Bute rose and Wright restarted the count.Bute was also out on his feet and a lot of refs would have stopped it whether he was up or not.
There was no reason for Wright to reprimand Andrade either.
Of course Bute showed who the better man was in the 2nd fight but i believe he was KO’d in that first one.The replay’s proved it.
As far as Parris goes,nothing specific comes to mind.I hadn’t really noticed that he was either very good or bad.Can you give an example of a bad call he’s made to refresh my memory?
When HBO showed the finish the other week on the Bute v Miranda broadcast,the tv count showed the actual time elapsed was over 10 seconds(about 14 second,i think)
What do you mean, that Bute was down for 14 seconds? No, I don’t think that’s true.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Look, I just watched it again and here’s what happened:
1) Bute goes down with about four seconds left on the clock.
2) Round 12 ends.
3) Bute is up at the eight count (using my own stopwatch from the time he hits the canvas to the time he’s on his feet)
4) Wright – for no apparent reason – starts yelling at Andrade to stay in his corner, despite the fact the the round ended about twelve seconds ago. It’s really just bizzarre and weird, but doesn’t effect anything, since the round is already over.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Yeah
you’re right.I just checked.He was up before ten.I was mistaken there.
Good point that although Wright was guilty of bad officiating,he didn’t actually influence the outcome.
Saying that did Richard Steele not pull Meldrick Taylor out on his feet against Chavezin similar circumstances?
The (arguable) difference is that it was still theoretically possible for Taylor to get hit again before the bell. In Bute’s case, it wasn’t possible, because the bell had already rung.
The bell hadn't actually rung
Which was part of the confusion. The timekeeper screwed up there as well. He should have rang the bell when the round ended, whether the fighter was down or not. But for some reason he waited for the count to end before ringing the bell. Timekeeper does his job right, and we’re probably not even having this conversation.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Or at least that's my recollection
I haven’t had a chance to go back and watch the video again.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
It’s possible that Wright himself did not hear the bell for whatever reason. Otherwise what he does makes no sense at all, yelling at Andrade to stay in his corner. Andrade could’ve hit the showers if he wanted to… the fight was over.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
HBO
showed the clock still ticking while Bute was up but looked pretty much out on his feet.That’s why i got mixed up.As you American’s say,my bad.
Good point though becuase,i may be wrong again here but i don’t think even Ring mag or many other official sources mentioned that the outcome was nit effected.They were just all over Wright.Maybe he didn’t deserve as much flak as he got?
Maybe he didn’t deserve as much flak as he got?
It was just so WEIRD to me what he was doing. I could not understand why he was doing it when it was happening… I’m thinking “why is he yelling at Librado? Did he call Marlon’s mamma a name?” It just didn’t make any sense to me but then when I watched it again I thought maybe Marlon didn’t hear the bell and was trying to give his house fighter some more recovery time. Which is horseshit, of course. He doesn’t really get a pass from me, but I guess it just doesn’t make me as angry about it. He didn’t seem to favor Bute overly for the other 11 and 9/10ths rounds, but maybe that’s only because Bute didn’t need his help then, you know? Just knowing he was willing to bend the rules a little is bad, though.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I think a lot of people just got confused. It was a legitimately confusing situation.
A few idiots continued to rant about it months later even though they should have known better. (I’m not talking about you, to be clear. I’m thinking of people like Max Kellerman, whose intro monologue for the Bute-Andrade rematch was cartoonishly over-the-top in its characterization of what had happened in the first fight.) But for the most part, the furor died down after a little while.
Another reason i got confused was because i thought that the rule in all “championship” fights is ’"fighter cannot be saved by the bell".
My point is,even though the bell rung to end the round,if this rule was in force Wright could have waved it off as Bute was in a pretty bad way.
“Can’t be saved by the bell” means that if you get knocked down and the bell rings when the ref’s at 5, you still have to get up before the ref gets to 10 even though the round is over.
But when you are up before the bell rings and then the bell rings, then you don’t need to be “saved by the bell” – you’re already up. Of course, the ref can still count you out in his discretion if he feels you can’t continue. But if it’s the last round, it would be an abuse of that discretion for a referee to count you out whether you can continue or not – seeing as how the fight is over and you don’t need to continue.
Cole by a wide margin
We have a lot of stories about a referee doing a bad job, but someone name me ONE fight that Cole has did a good job! He’s the worst ref in the most crooked state, as far as boxing goes.
Shoot
I didn’t even think to mention Dirrell-Abraham. He got the most important call right, but missed a couple of knockdowns and at least once fell for Abraham’s low blow trick.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I voted Mercante, Jr.
But that’s only because the question said “recently”, and what’s more recent than last weekend! Overall, I’m right on board with Cole.
Also, put me down for Smoger as the best ref. This is probably unfair, but it seems like I see Smoger reffing a wider range of fights; everything from more minor fights on ESPN2 undercards to title fights.
Fat Charlie Daggert might’ve put on one of the most inhuman refereeing performances ever in the first Beau Jack-Ike Williams fight. Standing there with his thumb up his ass while a defenseless Beau just swallowed leather in the corner. Watch film of that sometime if you ever want to see a referee turn something a fight into a horror show. Even Williams was so disgusted he was trying to stop the fight himself. He looked like he was about three punches away from walking about of the ring himself and finding a more humane line of work.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Here you go
Warning, may contain graphic violence and sickening disregard for human life.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Wow.
I’ve never seen anything quite that awful before. Jack is completely slumped in the corner, with Williams actually looking over at him asking “Enough?” while Jack just sees stars. Figures though, since most of the video you don’t even see Fat Charlie, as he’s so far away from the action and out of frame, he might as well be taking a smoke break.
Cole – he regularly and consistently effects fights more acutely than anyone I’ve seen.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
Tilleman is the poster boy here imo .
Also makes an equally bad judge , he served up an interesting score card for the Froch / Kessler do .
I dislike him with vigour .
by Sir Jack Daniels on Jun 10, 2010 4:11 PM EDT reply actions
Well this one is hard. Simply because thinking about the worst refereeing vs a ref who made a huge mistake. There have been certain refs who just simply made mistakes, and then there are refs who just plain and simply *ssholes…….. I think you have to distinguish the two.
For instance Richard Steele was the ref for the Meldrick Taylor vs Julio Cesaer Chavez fight. As we all know, Taylor had that fight in the bag. All he had to do was make it to the bell. Chavez was undefeated and deemed unstoppable at that point and time. Taylor was on the verge of making history. Chavez floored Taylor with around 10 seconds left in the 12th. Taylor got up and I admit was dazed, but come on, this is history that he was about to make. Steele asked him if he was alright, it looked like Taylor barely shook his head to say yes and for reasons that only Richard Steele knows, he stopped the fight with what I believe was 2 seconds on the clock….
That was probaly the worst that I have ever seen from a ref when it comes to a mistake. And I think thats why people forgave Steele because they realized he made a huge mistake.. I think he forgot what round it was or something.
Now when it comes to *ssholes, there are many. But one that comes to mind, I forgot his name, but he ref’’ed the Tyson vs Lewis fight. You could tell that he was pro Tyson. I mean, he warned Lewis for anything possible, and threatened point deductions, it was a mess. I believe if Lewis wouldn’t have stopped Tyson, he would’ve eventually got Disqualified.
Steele may have saved Mel’s life that night. he couldn’t save his career though. Mel was never the same after that fight. You must respond to the referees commands at all times… not just stare at him blankly when you are asked if you are alright.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
It was terrible that me that Meldrick fought on after that. It was a shame in a way that Duva beat the drum so much about the “conterversial” ending of that fight, because the wind up was that Taylor ended up extending his career to the point of permanent injury. Medrick was once my favorite fighter, but these days he does not know which way is up. You could see the rapid deterioration after that fight, particularly in the balance department. A very sad case.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Oh yeah
And I still to this day believe that Mike Tyson beat the count against Buster Douglas, he was up at 9 1/4 seconds. The ref just had an adrenaline rush seeing Tyson floored for the first time.
Tyson was done
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I agree
I agree, Tyson was finished. But the point Im making is, is it a Knockout loss, or a Technical Knockout loss? Because on record it stands as Buster Douglas KO’d Tyson, but it wasn’t a full 10 count. So if the ref wants to make that assumption that Tyson is done he should’ve just stopped it himself, and let it be a technical knockout…
And I forgot about earlier in that fight, Tyson floored Douglas, which in my eyes looked like a full 10 seconds, but the ref let him get up after 10 seconds… I may be wrong, but it was damn close both ways, for Tyson and Douglas…If it was wrong, those decisions definetly changed history. . Mike Tyson was never the same fighter since that loss, and his life went on a tail spin after that.
1. It is true that Douglas was down for more than ten seconds on the clock.
2. But every referee’s count is slower than real time. If you look at Meyran’s count for Tyson, it was at the exact same speed as his count for Douglas.
3. Douglas picked up the count at three or four. He looked directly at the referee and pounded his glove on the ground, showing that he was lucid.
4. If the referee had counted faster, Douglas would have gotten up faster. Fighters are trained to stay down and rest for as long as they can when they get knocked down. At the very least, no one can assume that Douglas wouldn’t have gotten up at 9 on a faster count.
4. If the referee had counted faster, Douglas would have gotten up faster. Fighters are trained to stay down and rest for as long as they can when they get knocked down. At the very least, no one can assume that Douglas wouldn’t have gotten up at 9 on a faster count.
Yeah this is the point everyone seems to forget. You’re not supposed to be beating the clock, your supposed to be beating the ref’s count, and you’re supposed to stay down and get as much recovery time as possible. It’s not like Buster was struggling to his feet, he was just taking his time. That’s what mature boxers do; get your wits about you, take your time an then get up. Otherwise you might pull a “Zab Judah.”
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Agree
But you have to understand, there was 2 seconds left in the final round. The 2 seconds would have went by with Chavez having to come all the way from the neutral corner, and all Taylor had to do was just stand there.
I understand all I am ever going to understand about that fight. No offense, but this has been talked to death here and elsewhere, and there’s nothing you can say that will change my mind about it. Steele is not the timekeeper. That’s not his job. His job is to protect the fighters. For all he knew, there could’ve been seven seconds left. Or ten. That would’ve been enough for Chavez to cause serious and potentially lethal damage… Taylor was in dreamland.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
There were actually about five seconds left. 2:58 is the official time, but that actually came a few seconds after Steele waved his hands.
Yeah I know
But I didn’t want to belabor the point. The point, to me, wasn’t whether or not Chavez could actually get to him (although, with those five seconds, he surely would have, and would’ve landed something). The point to me was always that Steele had no way of knowing exactly how much time was left, and didn’t want to take any chances and get someone killed. He did the right thing that night.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I’ve had my share of feelings in the matter, and I ultimately side on Questionable, But Understandable, on that count. Steele is not the timekeeper, and did the clock say 0:00-2:40, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, since poor Taylor was getting killed out there.
When it comes to Chavez’s overratedness, I now tend to harp on how badly Whitaker beat that ass in San Antonio. (My icon is the Robbed! cover of SI that week.)
But I always thought the count came from somebody sitting ringside next to the scorer’s table. Everytime I see somebody floored, I see the ref look to the scorer’s table to get the count. I didn’t know refs start off their own counts.
Someone ringside counts at the beginning while the referee is getting into position. Once the referee is ready, he gets the count from the scorer’s table and he counts the rest of it himself.
First used in one of Dempsey's fights I believe
Right after they brought in the neutral corner rule.
A prime example of brutal, terrible, almost evil reffing is Dempsey – Willard. Basically, the ref wouldn’t stop the fight unless Willard couldn’t beat the count, despite the huge damage he was taking, and the massive cuts all over his face, oh, and his shattered jaw.
Willard had ridiculous amounts of heart, but not much in the way of skills, and my goodness Dempsey hit hard.
Also in that fight, no neutral corner rule, so Dempsey can hit as soon as Willard’s knees were off the ground.
I found it quite difficult to watch.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I also notice that when the ref is counting and the fighter is still down, the guy who started off the count is hitting his hand against the canvas to make sure the ref is counting correctly.
Did anybody else see how pissed off Yuri Foreman’s wife was at Mercante? She was extremely pissed off. She said that she was screaming stop the fight and nobody would listen. Then when the corner did acknowledge her and throw the towel in, the ref tossed it back out and continued the fight. She said she should punch Mercante in his face.
She said Yuri was hurt, hobbled, on one leg and was a sitting duck. His wife and Mercante had a verbal confrontation in the dressing room and she had to be restrained.
She was right, in my opinion. Fight should have been stopped at the absolute latest the second time Foreman went down due to his bum knee.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Jun 10, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
This is boxing
Knee injuries don’t dictate fight stoppages, severe amount of damage being taken, or a fighter’s inability to defend themselves or offer a meaningful offence do.
None of those criteria really applied when the towel was thrown in.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
a fighter’s inability to defend themselves or offer a meaningful offence
You can’t seriously believe that Foreman, who was literally dancing on his toes the entire fight prior to his knee giving out, could mount an offensive anything when he was immobilized? Maybe if Foreman fought flatfooted as his primary style you’d have an argument, but if Foreman couldn’t move he was as good as a beached whale.
I loved the display of heart he showed after his knee gave out, but in my opinion the fight should have been ended when it was apparent Foreman’s knee was giving him as much trouble as Cotto was.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Jun 10, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
By meaningful offense
I mean throwing punches which land, and aren’t completely ineffective. Look, Foreman was offering resistance, it wasn’t great resisitance, and his knee was really hurt, but those simply, to my mind, legitimate criteria for stopping fights.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 11, 2010 5:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Richard Steele use to own this title on a year by year basis. Chavez-Taylor is obvious but his stoppage of Tyson-Ruddock 1 was just as terrible. But Steele hasn’t been as active as he use to be. Which has allowed Jay “Shady” Nady to swoop in and share the crown of worse ref with him. I can’t seriously believe anybody would think Shady is one of the best refs. He damn near almost killed Vargas. Was terrible in Roy Jones-John Ruiz. The Tsyzu-Judah stoppage was premature. He almost hyperventilated when he found out he was ref to a Mayweather fight. “It’s an honor Mr. Mayweather”. Not to mention for some reason he decided to rob Marco Antonio Barrera of a knock down against Marquez. Clearly affecting the score cards. Nady is the worse. No doubt
If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.
I say its 50/50
Because I’ve seen on plenty occasions fighters stumbling around the ring after a punch or a Knockdown. Rest In Peace- Trevor Berbick. I seen Trevor cover every inch of that ring, stumbling around after a Tyson Knockdown, before the ref stopped it.
Big unification fight like that should of gotten a decisive ending
If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.
by Violent Demise on Jun 10, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Judah got up to fast and went back down. Shady Nady panicked and stopped the fight. What the hell happened to the count? This is a championship, unification bout. Give the man his 10 seconds at least. Judah stumbling around like a drunk was due to one punch. Not a whole bunch. So it’s not like Judah was taking a beating prior to the knock down. Give the champion the benefit of the doubt. But Shady being the poor ref that he is folded under pressure. He failed to take control of the situation like Mills Lane did. Watch Tyson-Berbick. How many times did Berbick try and get up from that one punch only to find he’s legs were gone? I believe it was 3. Lane didn’t panic and wave it off. Instead he picked up the count and followed Berbick around as hew rose and fell all over the ring till he counted 10. .Berbick wasn’t going to win the fight. But he was the champion coming in. Lane gave him that reaspect
If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.
by Violent Demise on Jun 10, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with most of this, except for the one punch thing. He got punched once, but hit twice – Tszyu hitting him and him hitting the ground. I don’t mean that in a funny way. He went down fast and vicious on the back of his head. That was concussion city. He looked in outer space when he got up. But at the time, I still thought Nady could wait and see if Judah stayed down the second time and took a knee and tried to get his senses back.
But the thing is, it turned out he didn’t do that. So maybe Nady saw something up close we couldn’t see from far away. After nady waves it, Zab pops up again and Nady has to catch him before he falls straight backwards, maybe whanging the back of his head a second time.
Either way, Zab looked like his legs were in Toledo and his brain was on Mars for a good ten seconds after he went down. It was probably academic at that point.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
The other thing is the old “well it was the end of the round so he could have recovered” thing. Again, it’s not the ref’s job to keep the time. If they rung the bell signaling the end of the round, I think Nady might’ve ruled a different way.
But in any case I didn’t think it was the best call I’ve ever seen, but Zab reacted to the knockdown about as bad as any fighter I’ve seen. It’s a good lesson for young fighters: Stay down and take your breather, whether you feel hurt or not.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
The 10 second bell had gone off. So everybody knew the round was coming to an end. Even more proof Nady panicked. Nady should of gave Judah his 10 count. If he failed to get up than so be it. But what if he did? Judah gets his minute rest. And who knows what happens afterwards. Maybe he gets knocked out in the 3rd anyway. Or maybe he runs and holds on to survive the 3rd, gets himself back in the fight and stops Tszyu late. Judah speed dominated the first round. So I don’t see him winning as being unrealistic. But we will never know cuz Nady failed to do his job. If this was a regular fight between contenders or non contenders I wouldn’t have a problem with the stoppage. But it wasn’t that. It was a huge unification bout to crown the King of the Junior Welterweights. It should of had a decisive ending
If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.
by Violent Demise on Jun 10, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, like I said, it’s not the referee’s job to keep the time. It’s possible that in the moment, Nady thought Zab was maybe badly hurt in a medical way, having seen his head slam down on the mat like that, and then get up looking like he was on another planet.
I thought Zab should’ve gotten a count too. But then again I’m not the one who’s gonna get labeled an accessory to murder by the boxing public if it turned out Zab fell over again and broke his brain. It’s somewhat easy to sit in judgment of some of these guys when your not in there up close and personal and not directly responsible.
That’s what’s so crazy about the Taylor-Chavez stuff. Taylor was in bad shape, and wasn’t responding to questions, even after good count. There’s no way I second guess Steele in that situation. Taylor looked like he didn’t know where he was, and that’s when tragedies can happen.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Nady not being aware the round was coming to an end just proves his limitations as a ref. When the 10 second bell goes off everybody knows it’s coming to an end. Some ref even comment to stop at the bell. It wouldn’t be Nady’s fault if Judah got up before 10. Got his minute rest and got hurt later in the fight. Nady just did his job and boxing is a brutal sport.
What Steele did to Taylor is one of the biggest injustice ever in sports history. Again this was a huge fight. So many elements were in play. The fight was hyped big time and it lived up to it. Everybody knew Taylor was winning. Chavez and his corner knew it. Taylor was obviously fatigued and was getting broken down badly. But he wasn’t trapped in the corner taking punches. He was running trying to survive. Chavez dropped him with a big punch. Taylor went down. He got up before the count of 10. Didn’t wobble or fall back down. When asked if he’s ok he gives a slight nod. Isn’t that what your suppose to do when you get knocked down? Yet the fight was stopped. Unbelieveable. Taylor did everything your suppose to do when you get knocked down. There was no excuse for Steele to have stopped it. It’s the last round of a championship fight. The man gave everything he had against a ruthless opponent. He was winning the fight and about to make history. And Steele stops the fight. Disgusting.
If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.
by Violent Demise on Jun 10, 2010 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
When asked if he’s ok he gives a slight nod.
Nonsense. He does no such thing. Steele asks him twice. He doesn’t respond or nod or do a goddamn thing.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Even if thats the case
Like I stated earlier, there is no way Chavez could have made it from across the ring all the way from the neutral corner in 2 seconds. I know you’re not going to agree, but I look at it like this; Taylor took a beating that fight, no question about it. However he was still winning. Why make Taylor go through all of that punishment that he took, fight his heart out for 12 rounds, get popped and dropped, and back up, all for you to stop it with 2 seconds left? I mean hey, just becasue you stopped it with 2 seconds left isn’t going to reverse the damage that he had already taken. Even if Taylor didn’t respond to Steele, you mean to tell me that you couldn’t just give him the benefit of the doubt that he was on the verge of doing something special…..The damage was already done, I mean any problems he had after that fight atleast he could’ve been like,; well yeah,Im not the same fighter anymore, but atleast I won. I think by him taking that beating physically, and then Steele stopping the fight, I think mentally that really messed Taylor up.
Like I said before, Julio Ceaser Chavez is no Usain Bolt.
There is no way he makes it to Taylor in 2 seconds from a neutral corner without the bell ringing first………Oh well, thats just something we wont ever agree on.
by The Floorer on Jun 10, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Its not two seconds
It’s not any seconds, when you are looking someone in the face, and deciding whether they can go back into a fight.
Besides, there were five seconds on the official clock when the fight was waved. But it doesn’t matter because Steele didn’t know that. For all he knew, there could’ve been seven or nine or twelve.
Nobody on this website was as big a Taylor fan as I was, except maybe for SOAPy. Which of you guys talked to Taylor in person or shook his hand, before or after he got brain damaged? I’ve watched this nonsense go from being something you talk about privately to being some internet bullshit.
Put somebody’s life in your hands, where you are looking a man and then talk about how easy it is to nod and say “okay kid get back in there.”
This isn’t so much to “The Floorer” or any of the new guys here, who I don’t know from fuck all. I want to hear from guys who I know something about, who are casting all these motherfucking stones, and then in the next breath talking about Mercante or Jay Nady or what have you. Are you really so sure that you wouldn’t have made the same decision, looking into Mel’s face right then? Him not saying anything or nodding, just hung up in the corner like that? Whatever other argument some fools raise, there’s nothing that Mel does to say he’s ready to fight. What right do we have to talk about Perez almost killing Norton or Morrison if we act like Steele was so out of line stopping Meldrick, who was my favorite fighter at the time and who now is brain-damaged beyond all belief?
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Taylor did nod his head. Steele admitted as much. But to him that wasn’t enough
Him not saying anything
The man had a mouthpiece in his mouth. He had just been floored. Not to mention he was exhausted from just about going 12 rounds. Yet you and Steele expect him to have a conversation? The man acknowledge he was ok with the nod. And while I’m sure he was dazed he was not just staring out there. It’s pretty obvious he’s looking at his corner. Something damn near every fighter does after getting knocked down.
Besides, there were five seconds on the official clock when the fight was waved. But it doesn’t matter because Steele didn’t know that. For all he knew, there could’ve been seven or nine or twelve.
Steele is an experienced referee. He should of noticed the red flashing light going off in the corner. Meaning there was less than 10 seconds. Not 12. Not only that, but after personally speaking to Wayne Kelley and Tommy Kimmons, both respected ref’s they mentioned that while they don’t carry time clocks after reffing enough fights a ref pretty much knows or senses when a round is coming to an end.
While I never have met Meldrick personally I have met Myron Taylor. Meldrick’s older brother. To this day the entire Taylor family doesn’t understand the stoppage. His brother still hasn’t got over it. Anybody wishing to knows Meldricks thoughts on this after all these years needs to pick up his book “2 seconds from Glory.” I found it to be an outstanding read.
If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.
by Violent Demise on Jun 11, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Taylor did nod his head. Steele admitted as much.
Steele said no such thing. He had an eight count, which Meldrick didn’t even look at while he was counting. Steele did the right thing here there, alternating between loudly and clearly counting off Mel and checking to see that Chavez was staying in his corner. Your job is NOT to look at flashing red lights and try to guess how much time might be left.
Steele then asks Meldrick – TWICE – if he’s okay, and Meldrick just looks away. He doesn’t nod or blink or wiggle his eyebrows or anything. Doesn’t hold up his gloves either. He is supporting himself on the ropes and not responding to questions. Obviously, you have to stop it at that point.
To this day the entire Taylor family doesn’t understand the stoppage.
Taylor himself can hardly speak. His brain injuries were very, very bad. For awhile, Taylor joined a religious cult so screwy it makes Scientologists look like Lutherans.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Check out the way Meldrick talks on HBO’s “Legendary Nights.” It’s a nightmare. Meldrick was a great speaker once, really lucid and fluid. Now it’s like trying to understand someone who’s had a very severe stroke.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Steele said no such thing.
You obviously never heard Steele’s take on the matter.
He is supporting himself on the ropes
No he’s not. His glove is on the rope and he’s standing. His back isn’t supported by anything
Check out the way Meldrick talks on HBO’s "Legendary Nights."
I have. It makes what Steele did to Taylor even worse. It’s like Taylor saves the president during a war. Getting shot in the process. Only for someone to say “you didn’t really save him. This guy over here did. You get nothing.” Taylor should of gone into the record books as the man who ruined the perfect record of the Great Julio Cesar Chavez. But he’s not. He got shot for no reason
If a man ain't found something worth dying for. He ain't fit to live.
by Violent Demise on Jun 11, 2010 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You obviously never heard Steele’s take on the matter.
Yeah good point. After all, I’ve only listened to Richard Steele talk about the last sixteen seconds of this fight in damn near every interview he’s done for the past twenty years, always saying the same thing: that Meldrick did not respond to him when he asked him – twice – if he was okay, and that he is there to protect the fighters.
This is why the other side of this endless (and now, in light of Mel’s injuries, stupid) argument always falters. Because eventually they have to resort to ridiculous lies to avoid sinking beneath the waves. Because no one in their right mind would say “I’d let that fight go on if there were thirty seconds left” they end up resorting to a “death of a thousand cuts” approach. Lots of tiny little lies and exaggerations. Suddenly, Meldrick has a “glove on the rope.” Where was his other glove… raised in victory? Suddenly, Meldrick nodded, and then Steele “admitted” he nodded. Except, this fight didn’t take place in 1906. Anyone can easily look at the tape and see this is just horseshit.
It doesn’t stop there, either. You have fools talking about the red light, not even knowing why the red light was put there in the first place (hint: it wasn’t to warn the ref about the official time). All of the stuff they leave out is more telling, like Mel going to the wrong corner in the eleventh, or the fact that Steele gave him an 8 (and reallly, a 9) count and asked him twice whether he was okay to continue twice. Steele gave him every chance and then some to do something.
For younger fans who don’t know what’s up, here is what is really happening with this long – and really stupid – argument. Chavez was the betting favorite, but widely hated. Meldrick was the underdog, but widely loved. Mel put on a fantastic clinic for the first nine, but was battered half to death in the final three rounds. It was really terrible punishment that Meldrick stood up to bravely. Heroically, really. Dumb Duva told Mel to go and try to KO JCC in the final round. Duva was wrong. He didn’t need to do that. Duva was wrong and Meldrick paid for it dearly.
So the wind up is, some fans of the time (and more recent poseurs and liars, who just like to argue) blame Steele, pretending that if that fight had been stopped with 30 seconds left, they would’ve still been outraged. Because Mel was okay (he wasn’t), because Mel responded (he didn’t – obviously, just look at it), because Steele knew how much time was left (he couldn’t), and because Steele knew Chavez couldn’t hurt Mel anymore… which is stupidest of all. Even if Steele was a psychic who knew how many seconds were left, think about how many punches you can rip in five seconds.
The end.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Here is the “obvious” Chavez-Taylor corruption: Steele looking into the face of an unrecognizable Taylor (with every bone in his face broken) who is supporting himself on the ropes and who – when Steele looks him dead in the eyes and screams “Are you okay?” – looks away dazed.
Steele made the right call.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
As did Nady
only Zab, and maybe John Ruiz, would have complained about being stopped like that.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Judah – Tszyu is a little more debatable to me I suppose. But Zab didn’t help himself. When he went down that first time, he looked like he just finished putting away two gallons of whiskey. I thought it was a little fast, but on the other Zab jumped back up a second time and was careening straight backwards again, and Nady had to grab him by both arms to stop him from going timber a second time. Judah might have hurt himself just trying to get up… That’s why you are supposed to stay down and take a count!
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
on the other hand
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
won’t get into it – we’ve done it – but I disagree. I think it was a terrible call and it’s own tragedy. And I think you’re overstating Taylor’s level of “dazed”
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
There’s no way to understate it.
Mel’s face was completely broken. In the hospital he was pissing 100% blood. He suffered multiple brain injuries that night. Meldrick Taylor might’ve been the bravest guy I’ve ever seen fight in a ring. But you want to talk about tragedy? Look Taylor up today.
You understand my confusion, since yesterday you were accusing me of being bloodthirsty because of Cotto-Foreman. And don’t forget that you are in the same camp as Larry Merchant on this one. It’s always good to see who else is standing in the room with you.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Kenny Bayless and Steve Smoger are my favorites
Cole and Nady imo are absolutely marginal. Smoger is perhaps my favorite, while Bayless is also a favorite of mine, I also believe he is the best out there.
by The Pinoy Pikey on Jun 10, 2010 9:33 PM EDT reply actions
Spot On Pikey , Best refs for mine Smoger and Bayless in a tie . Worst refs Cole and Nady in the States . Roger Tillerman as pound for pound worst ref with Dave Parris and Terry OConnor also setting a high standard in biased officiating.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Hello jrok and JC40. thanks, it is good to be here. Just watching my Celtics struggle against the Lakers….Oh boy…LOL! Yes, I definately like both Smoger and Bayless. They are always in control, non-bias and just incredibly talented at officiating.
by The Pinoy Pikey on Jun 10, 2010 11:04 PM EDT reply actions
Nady made the right call in the Judah vs Kt fight
Violent demise, Judah needed to maintain an element of professional composure, take an 8 on one knee, then get to his feet. When he got up immediately and fell again, the ref has to stop the fight: Nady made the correct call. Judah lost his professional bearing—and it cost him the fight. I believe he would have lost regardless.
by The Pinoy Pikey on Jun 10, 2010 11:12 PM EDT reply actions
I saw Trevor Berbick go down 3 times after getting hit by Tyson, and Mills Lane didnt stop it until Berbick fell in his arms.
by The Floorer on Jun 10, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
None of these guys have ever all but hit a fighter with a steel chair the way Roger Tilleman did to Robin Reid. So I gotta go with Tilleman. Cole is always an obstacle. I used to think Nady was good, but I realized that was when I was younger and didn’t notice/pay attention to refs so much. Watching Nady-reffed fights again, I have seen the light. Probably a reason he doesn’t get many anymore. Cortez just seems nervy anymore.
Of the guys still very active, I might pick Parris as the worst of them all. Without question, IMO, the best active, major fight referee is Steve Smoger.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
How about a corresponding best referee poll?
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 11, 2010 10:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sure thing
Just not quite yet. I’ll store it in the memory banks and do one eventually.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
smoger gets my vote for best ref.
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
.
Bad Referees
Where’s Michael Ortega? I always felt reassured when he was in the ring, but I haven’t seen him much lately.
Add one
for Cole. I checked the wrong box.
Any nominations for the best ref poll?
As I have it right now, the poll would be Bayless, Cortez (I don’t think he’s good, but I know some folks love him), Pat Russell, Smoger, Daniel van de Wiele and Weeks. Anyone else I’m missing?
I feel like there should be another name or two in there.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Telis Asimenios!
No, seriously, I don’t really think he’s one of the best, but he’s OK. And I like his name.
I was considering putting him up there
He’s right on the cusp for me. He’s in the honorable mentions. I do think he’s the best U.S. ref out there who’s not from a major fight state.
I was trying to come up with a UK ref also, but damned if I can’t think of a good one right now. Best one is probably Mickey Vann, who not only is retired, but admitted in his autobiography that he wasn’t on the level in all of his fights.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Brickhaus.
that he wasn’t on the level in all of his fights.
Do you mean he admitted he made some bad judgement calls or that he was corrupt?
Best ref poll - I'd nominate Ron Lipton
I’m not sure if he’s still refereeing but one of the best in the business IMO. Superb reflexes with a fighter’s awareness and experience. I know ex-fighters don’t always make competent referees but Ron was outstanding IMO.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
I'm not sure of the details
I know the BBBoC charged him with something after the book came out, but I don’t think anything ever came of it.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Anyone else think Ian John Lewis is funny?
He always starts off with “I am the weffawee…”
plus he sounds line he’s been kicked in the balls.
by Phill on Jun 11, 2010 1:54 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Micky Van
He had his moments too. Didn’t he get pushed over by some fighter’s old man in a Ricky Hatton fight years ago, stumbling across the ring after a slight ‘delay’??
by Phill on Jun 11, 2010 2:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Roger Tillerman.
All on the basis of that Robin Reid fight, which was frankly sickening, and about the worst example of a crooked referee in a major fight.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
Jon Schorle
He’s something of a multi-tool bad official, being a questionable ref and judge in both boxing and MMA.
One from the past - the sadistic Ernesto Magana
The third man in the Duran vs Davey Moore beat down. I can still see Jose Torres ringside screaming at the clueless Magana to stop the fight.
I’m not a fan of Joe Cortez or his copyrighted catchphrase.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
I'd like to see the abolition of the referee's dicky-bow.
Adds a touch of unnecessary pantomime IMO.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
I more see it as a touch of class
Boxing referees certainly look better, and far more professional, than the galoots who ref UFC.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 12, 2010 10:34 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yer oot yer face!
Mate, the UFC men in black look smart enough sans comical dicky-bow! Do we want a referee in there or a mad professor? Reminds me of those stuffy black-tie shows where boxers and trainers had to stand behind a roped-off section at the back of the hall – away from the well to do gentleman types. Do they still hold those in the UK? I dinnae imagine ’em taking place in bonnie Scotland! Lang may yer lum reek!
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Nice slang
Too west, and north-west coast, to be something I would use, but I like the effort! :)
I guess I still enjoy the ceremony of boxing, and feel that the guys who ref MMA just look like some bloke off the street, nothign special.
The tie going would hardly be the end of the world to me, but I’d rather it stayed.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 13, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Cole is the worst
It’s just so unfair for him to grab one fighter’s arm to deal with clinches. His garden variety rulings (deductions, stoppages) are often subpar too, but his one-arm grabs are just shockingly bad.
Overtime loss: The new black.
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