Looks like Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. can throw a baseball about as good as he can throw a punch. (Photo by Chris Farina / Top Rank)
almost 2 years ago
Brickhaus
239 comments
0 recs |
Email
PrintComments
You're doing it wrong
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
It better not be for his sake.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
If it is True I Believe Jr. can Ko Cotto, Foreman Buckled Cotto with a Right but Didn’t Finish him. Jr. will Finish Cotto if he hits him Like that. Yuri doesn’t hit harder that Chavez jr.
rgb
I have no idea what you are talking aboot,unless you’re being sarcastic.Chavez Jr is garbage.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I know Jr. has Beat nothing but Tomato Cans as Many Fans Put it but do you Really Believe Cotto can Beat Him if the Fight was to Happen?? Who can Cotto Beat at 154 ?
Duddy for another
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Not only has he beat nothing but tomato cans,he has looked bad doing so.He only just squeaked past Matt Vanda for crying out loud!
He would be no one if not for his father and Cotto would beat him handily,probably with a similar result to the Foreman fight.
He won’t even get past Duddy.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
It wouldn’t be similiar to the Foreman fight. Foreman won two rounds. Chavez wouldn’t stand up for two rounds.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Probably True.
I haven’t seen the Foreman fight yet to be honest.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
He was doing fine until the leg blew. I’m guessing most of us probably had it even after four rounds.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I read from more than one source that Cotto was well on top by the time the leg went.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Before he slipped in the 7th, I had Cotto up 4-2. So yeah, he was winning, but it wasn’t some one-sided mismatch like Michael Jennings or something.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Oh no,i knew it was reasonably competitive.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Chavez Jr
will never be even gatekeeper level,never mind good enough to even get a fight with someone like Cotto.I have seen him fight 4 or 5 times and each time he has impressed me less than the time before…..And he was below average the first time i saw him.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I had it even.
Speaking of that – what happened to the guest judging thing?
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
you had Foreman – Cotto 3-3 at the seventh? I’m kinda shocked. I’m even shocked with people who gave Foreman 2 rounds. Even the 4th round which I think most everybody agrees Foreman won, he still landed less punches than Cotto (though I know that’s not a great indicator). I re-watched it yesterday and I did see Foreman landing some nice punches, but not enough to have it nowhere close to even. Oh well.
We were talking about having it even after four. Manny Steward also gave Foreman the third round. Foreman was giving Cotto some good looks in three and four.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
actually your post before says “I had Cotto 4-2” before the slip… so I’m not sure why we’re talking about after 4.
It means “I had Cotto winning four rounds and Foreman winning two before the slip.”
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I don’t give my banking details to someone i don’t know and anyway i said ‘you should go bet on that’,not ‘i will bet you’.
Feel free to go lose your money.Plenty of online bookies out there.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Or the TBB game
Anyway, we don’t do bettors posts on here for a reason.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Send them to me and I will keep them secure in a place I have in the Cayman Islands.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Don’t worry i will admit if i am wrong……….but i won’t be.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Lil’ Chavez went life-or-death against Troy Rowland, for crying out loud. Cotto would swallow Junior in one gulp and then fart him out.
But it would never happen anyway. Junior is the fattened calf who will never be led to the slaughter. It took them 40 fights to get him ready for Matt Vanda, who he also went life or death with. I’m a fan of bringing a guy along slowly, but sheesh!
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
No that’s the point. We WON’T see. It will never happen. It would be like Arum feeding his prized parakeet to his mountain lion.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Keeping posting that Chavez would beat Cotto sounds like you are trying to convince yourself as much as anything.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Im not but I would Like to see that Fight and as Greedy as Arum is he would Make it if the Money makes Sense.
Not really. Chavez would be ruined and completely humiliated, and therefore Bob wouldn’t be able to squeeze anymore Latin Fury cards out of him. I mean Cotto-Chavez is a pretty awful mismatch. Worse than Cotto-Gomez or Cotto-Jennings.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Good advice...
I might have mispelled “humiliated.”
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Not literally of course!
I see Amir is looking to fight another smaller guy in the winner of Marquez v Diaz.His promoter.Schaefer is trying to say that Marquez is a more credible opponent than Maidana.
A small,old,past his best fighter a better challenge than a proper 140lb banger???….I’m getting almost as sick of Khan as i am of David Haye.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
And after that, Chavez will fight Hector Camacho Junior for The Paternity Test Do-Over belt.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
by jrok on Jun 11, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
nice
A Pete Rose by any other name would still smell of cheap hookers and pinetar.
by Pops Daniels on Jun 12, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
It wouldn’t suprise me if Arum tried to make any fight that would sell to the gullible fans,greaseball that he is…….But you can’t make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 11, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Mexico vs Puerto Rico
The Only thing Cotto Can’t Beat Anyone at 154. Martinez, Angulo or Paul Williams.
Junior would wet himself in his corner before they even touched gloves.
He wouldn’t even last as long as Michael Spinks, the last guy to do that. ….and Spinks at least was facing Tyson.
Never gonna’ happen.
Last time I saw Chavez it was Mexico vs. Grand Rapids Michigan. And Michigan almost won.
Look the apple has fallen very far from the tree here. It’s common that the sons don’t live up to the papas. Chavez Jr. is a sheep in wolf’s clothing.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I'd be shocked if he wins
Even if the panel is rigged. He might not get KOed, but I just can’t see him winning unless Duddy looks completely flat (which has been known to happen on occasion). Duddy who beat Vanda knocks 10 shades of snot out of Junior. The Duddy who showed up against Lyell and Smichet might have problems.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Junior will go into the fight having at least one scorecard in the bank
Mark my words. There will be at least one card in this fight that proves Santa Claus exists. Some things truly are passed on from father to son.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
No Excuses for Duddy oy Chavez Jr.
When you Step in that Ring All the Excuses go out the Door. Mayweather -Castillo , Castillo got Robbed. Even Letterman had Castillo 115 to 111.
I don’t think it goes the distance.
Duddy’s not a good fighter, but I think just about everything he does is ahead of Jr. Who’s the last guy Duddy fought? – that dude was better than Jr, and better than anyone Jr’s ever fought. And Duddy won.
And here’s the other thing – Duddy is a tough SOB – I don’t doubt that. He doesn’t have a great chin, but he’ll stand in as long as he can. Jr’s not going to shoe-shine and pot-shot his way to a victory, he’s gonna stand in there too. So these guys are basically gonna stand and trade. Duddy’s pretty good at that game, Jr thinks he is but he’s not. I think Duddy gets the KO here.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
It is a big possibility
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Chavez Jr had to be sent to Freddie Roach just to see if he had the 'fire' to even fight
Overprotected is too kind. Hidden is more descriptive. There are taxi-drivers who could beat this kid. His father knows it. Arum knows it.
Arum may owe Cotto a few easy paydays for past services rendered…but he ain’t gonna make it that easy. and certainly not at the expense of alienating all of his Mexican followers. If Arum is going to match a Puerto Rican star with a Mexican, he’s going to give Mexican fighting chance. with Margarito….not Chavez, Jr.
Hidden is more descriptive.
Yeah, this. Hidden in plain sight, though. It’s awful to watch in a similar way that it was to see Tye “Big Sky” Fields rack up wins, knowing that the first guy with a pulse was going to mash him.
Duddy has a pulse, so Arum is gambling big-time here. I thought for sure they’d at least do Chavez Jr – Macho Jr. first. Then again, I was also sure they’d do Duddy-Lee on St. Pats day in Maddie Square.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
As some have people have already stated in other articles,Cheato doesn’t deserve a shot at a belt (although i would like to see Cotto get the chance for revenge).
As a Mexico v PR fight goes,i would rather see Cotto v Angulo.
Cotto is Good and I have nothing Against him, Im Glad he Beat Foreman.But do you Really think he can Beat Williams,Martinez,Angulo or Cintron?
Agreed
I’d love to know more about the dynamics of why Cotto is not being matched with Cintron for PR supremacy. My guess is the risk/reward might be too great for Miguel
That sounds about right to me
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Though I'd give him a better chance than that against Cintron
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I realize some people feel that way
But I have almost no doubt that Cotto is going to take the money when it is offered.
I agree...
… though I would really like for Cotto to stand his ground on that. Margarito doesn’t deserve another big fight.
How about he does it on the condition that Margo’s entire purse goes to Cooney’s F.I.S.T. foundation?
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
BTW, I know your position well and respect it but....
How do you think MC would match up with Margarito
Without his secret weapons or his confidence? Cotto isn’t the fighter he once was, but I believe he would mulch Margorito in a rematch. Without his vaunted power, Tony is just a punching bag.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Yea. I didn’t see his comeback fight, but it sounds like he is a different animal. (and we could say “obviously”). I like the idea of Cotto kicking his ass, but I’m still solid on the idea that Margo needs to never fight again. And I still won’t pay to see it.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
He looked pretty mediocre.
Maybe not surprisingly but he seemed to have gassed. His volume was definitely down.
And by the way, I truly think that Capetillo knew this about Margs. He knew that he had a fighter with a rugged chin and lots of energy, but a sub-par punch. That’s why the did it. They “completed” him.
Shane demonstrated the difference in savage style. Tony had nothing. The extra weight and hardness of those inserts were doing a lot of the work for him.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I just don’t think we can overstate what those inserts do for a guys defense. I mean, Shane was winging over-hand “bar-fight” style punches at Margo. He wouldn’t be doing that if he were getting hit by casts. So – it helped Margo’s defense as well as his offense, because we’re unwilling and unable to settle down on their punches.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
That logic makes sense
Of course it’s still conjecture but it is absolutely reasonable to think/believe your point about Capetillo.
If that is the case, Cotto will definitely take the fight; assuming that is the Margarito can keep winning. Otherwise, to hell with him.
Look at the fight
Cotto wore an expression of WTF in the second round! Not WTF just hit me…but WhoTF is this guy walking through me. And Margarito hadn’t even cranked up his volume.
Cotto was whacking Margarito with shots that would have taken mot men out. When that happens to a power-puncher like MC, they get demoralized.
You are Right on Margo Being a Punching Bag, but Cotto threw Everything but the Kitchen Sink at Margo and Still Lost
That’s because he was being hit in the head with bricks.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Exactly, and if you are being hit with bricks, more thank likely, you’re own punching power is probably decreasing.
That’s like BP saying they took all necessary precautions – of course they say that shit, they’re “interested” in that being true.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
In All fairness we Don’t Know and we have no Proof Margo Cheated or Attempted to Cheat Against Cotto.
There’s no proof we landed men on the Moon either. I mean, it’s not like I was up there on the Moon watching it happen, right?
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Hahaha.
Seriously, it seems to me that Margs was loading up for years by that point. Lujan and Holloway make for pretty compelling evidence. So does Shane Mosley. Mosley has a rugged beard himself, but he was practically laughing at Tony’s lack of power.
That must’ve been an interesting fight for him, knowing Tony’s “secret” before he went in the ring. I’m sure during camp that Richardson kept reminding him to be careful of Tony’s power. Then he gets in there and it tastes like ice cream.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
can you imagine that kind of Christmas present in the locker room? If I’m Shane, it would be hard not to get overconfident in that locker room. Actually, did we ever hear whether Naz told Shane prior to the fight?
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
Yes, he told him.
And he told Shane to go out there and rip his head off.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
There I disagree
Marg walked him down and right through his best shots landing flush. Those are facts; facts that demoralized Cotto way too early for bricks to have been the issue.
Cotto has his own problems…and limits. He fights tense, shows it, gets hit and hit hard, and breathes hard and/or gasses in the middle rounds, etc.
I mean, its the old addage of"taking three to land one," except that each “one” that Margarito landed was worth about eight. Because he was loaded up.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I'm talking about Cotto
I have always seen him as ultimately vulnerable and when he moved up to full welter even more so. His power is and has not been knocking out full welters. MC was a great Junior Welter and a very very good welter.
And please don’t tell me that he failed to hurt Manny because of PEDs.
And please don’t tell me that he failed to hurt Manny because of PEDs.
WTF?
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I am making one point. Cotto was not hurting Margarito
You keep saying it is becvause of Margarito’s wraps. I say it’s because Cotto is not hurting Welters the way he hurt smaller men
Margarito has a good chin. Nobody’s denying that.
But if Margarito has 50% less power in that fight (pick a number), then Cotto hits him with 50% more punches. He stands in there and hammers away instead of potshotting.
And I'm suggesting limits to Cotto's chin...and power
After all, he was tagged and hurt at lighter weights. I was not altogether surprise when he finally started to meet his match at full welter.
It is totally understandable to doubt Margarito but Clottey and Manny confirmed my own doubts about miguel
This is extremely poor logic.
So Cotto threw a lot of hard shots but didn’t hurt Margarito. How does that prove that he wouldn’t have hurt Margarito if he had hit him with more good shots while not being hit back as hard?
I didn't say that.
I said Miguel has limits and flaws that have been exposed not once but on a number of occasions. In the past, at lighter weights, his will and his power overcame. Just not at welter
Here’s what you said:
Marg walked him down and right through his best shots landing flush. Those are facts; facts that demoralized Cotto way too early for bricks to have been the issue.
You said that bricks could not have made the difference in the fight because Cotto has other deficiencies. That is a logical fallacy. If there are multiple causes for why Boxer A lost to Boxer B, taking away one of those causes can very easily make the difference in the fight even if the other causes remain.
Look at the fight
Cotto wore an expression of WTF in the second round! Not WTF just hit me…but WhoTF is this guy walking through me. And Margarito hadn’t even cranked up his volume.
Cotto was whacking Margarito with shots that would have taken most men out. When that happens to a power-puncher like MC, they often get demoralized. Cotto did.
There’s a difference between being demoralized and being hammered in the face with rocks. That morale would return very quickly when this Frankenstein Monster walks through your punches and then hits you with one of those pushing, powder puff 1-2s that he threw against Shane.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Way to avoid answering any of my points.
Here are some answers to yours.
1. Mind-reading based on boxers’ facial expressions is a poor methodology for analyzing fights.
2. Cotto could be demoralized as all hell, but he still isn’t going to lose the fight if Margarito isn’t capable of (a) hurting him, or (b) deterring him from standing in the pocket and throwing more punches than he did.
3. To repeat for the fourth time: That Cotto did not take Margarito out with X number of punches does not prove that Cotto couldn’t have taken Margarito out with 2X punches.
You are the one trying to make conclusion here and twist logic
and logic.
I am telling you what I saw. What Manny Steward said in the first rounds.
But what I am saying is that Miguel probably won’t match up well with tall pressure fighters… not that night, not any night. and certinly not ones capable of taking his best shots.
Look I didn’t bring up Manny or PEDs or any of that junk. I’m saying that when you are getting hit in the head with bricks it might not be the best gauge of your abilities in a given weight class.
Although I do, for the most part, agree that Cotto had more advantages down at 140 than he did at 147.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
and the man that called it very early was non other than Cotto's new trainer
Manny Steward. The very same astute observer who immediately said Mosely looked somehow off….uncoordinated…in the first few minutes against Floyd
I like that...
But Miguel would like the chance to get fists full of dollars and Margarito is his best chance.
He is surely keeping it in reserve as a last payday option. It would be big enough money for both guys to retire on.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
If I’m Cotto, I say that I’ll take the fight if Margarito’s payday is enough to make a working man’s wage and cover his expenses and no more. Margarito gets this fight if and only if he is willing to fight for his honor alone. He can fight for money again only after he walks through this fire for free.
This ^
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 12, 2010 10:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The only way it doesn't happen is if one or the other fails to do their part
And loses one they should have won handily
I’m not American but i always thought that throwing the first ball out was a privilege reserved for successful,famous people,not creations of Bob Arum’s evil plan.
Nah
There are 30 teams in MLB, 162 games a year. That’s a whole lot of games to throw out pitches at. Most of the time it’s just some local guy. Opening day and playoffs are always VIPs, but getting someone like Pacquiao to throw out a first pitch is a coup.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
We can talk and Argue about Jr. on How Bad he Sucks and that Duddy will K’O Him but Come June 26th we will Find Out.
Me Too
I will be at Ringside 3rd Row, I hope to take a pic with Barrera or Chavez Sr. Like whe I wen’t to JMM – Diaz in Houston. Jr. needs to Impress Big time and by that I mean K’O Duddy. We will see how Roach’s Training Helped Jr.
Houston Tx
For JMM Diaz $300 and For Jr Duddy $200. I Bought the cause I wanted to See Barrera and Arce, I thought when will I ever see them in Person Fight. Even though Barrera is Past his Prime I Still Wanted to see him. I Also bought Tickets for JMM- Diaz in Vegas $350 Ringside
Jared
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
You know,
this may be picky (actually, I don’t think it is), but you guys refer to Margarito being “loaded” for the Cotto fight as if it is a given that he was. The argument keeps coming up, but only because posters keep stating something as a fact that is not known to be a fact.
Charles Manson is dangerous. Charles Manson killed—or had people killed.
Charles Manson did not kill Robert Kennedy.
That is the other asshole who is, I believe, in the same prison.
For many of us, it is a given now.
Are you saying there’s as much evidence that Manson killed Kennedy as there is that Margs loaded for Cotto?
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
No--
I think that you’re a little smarter than that.
I’m saying that just because a person committed one crime doesn’t = he committed them all.
Or committed the same crime at every opportunity that he had.
For many of us, it is a given now.
That, to me, smacks of arrogance.
Are the “many” those who should dictate to the rest of us?
And just because you, or anyone else, has made a decision on a matter that has not been proven doesn’t make your decision sacrosanct. IMO works just fine.
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
nobody’s dictating and nobody’s charged him. This isn’t a courtroom – we don’t need to meet a burden of proof.
With that said, charge him and Capetillo with a handful of shit if I was in a position to do so.
There’s a shit load of circumstantial evidence for many prior instances. Do you honestly believe that Margo and Capetillo thought, “well, we’ve been fighting clean and we beat Cotto clean, but let’s load up for Shane because he’s so much better than Cotto”? – Makes no sense.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
I'm going to assume you take that same position on Shane vis a vis Steroids
As Bernard likes to say: It’s only cheating if you get caught.
Shane took PEDs prior to that fight, and he got caught prior to that fight. (different than steroids). I don’t think Shane was PED’d up in that fight just like I don’t Margo cheated in his last fight.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
I think we're on the same page here
I meant when Shane fought prior to getting his getting caught. Not when he fought Margarito.
He knew that Floyd was coming in to clean up the game ;)
That "assume"
also betrays an attitude. One that I don’t really like.
Such is life.
The jump to any idea that I’m advocating it’s only cheating if you get caught is asinine.
For the record: It seems to me very likely that Shane took steroids.
And that Margo tried to enter the ring with Shane wearing gloves loaded in some manner. Are you going out of your way to incite?
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
And that Margo tried--
is a given. Sorry if that was muddled.
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Not at all
I often find that those who have Absolutely No Doubt about Margarito are more willing to give Shane’s past performances (prior to ODLH2) a pass.
My position is I do not know, therefore, right or wrong, I give both men the same pass.
BTW, that was B-Hop’s response to the scandal when it broke. I found it more interesting and probably accurate than I did provocative.
My misreading then.
I’ll jump onto the jrolk “girly-arm” idea to blame.
But will apologize nonetheless if I was too quick to blame.
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
1) When you use specific language, you are making a claim.
2) I’ve notice this isn’t a courtroom, but thanks for the information. Who is the “we” who don’t need a burden of proof? We who decide that we say whatever we want to? I generally like to say IMO whenever I can remember to. Circumstantial evidence has put people on death row who were later exonerated. And yes, there is a logical—likely more than one—way to get to Margo loading for Shane and not for Cotto, but the fact that a chain of thought could be produced doesn’t make it true.
I lost respect for Margarito. I have no intention of defending him.
But I’ll point out unsubstantiated statements any time I’d like.
And you can go ahead and make those statements any time you wish.
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Who is the "we" who don’t need a burden of proof?
well, me and I guess anyone else not saying some shit in a courtroom.
I generally like to say IMO whenever I can remember to
I think that’s sort of implied by my name appearing underneath the shit I say.
Circumstantial evidence has put people on death row who were later exonerated.
Very rarely. It much more frequently puts people there who did the deed.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
Alright lets stop this, guys
This can’t go anywhere good.
I blame JCC Jr’s girly-armed pitch.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Ain't that the truth
I don’t want Arum to see this and misconstrue it is an invitation to i us to pay to see Junior actually fight
One is
more than enough, IMO.
And no, sorry, it’s not implied when you state something as a given.
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Circumstantial evidence doesn’t mean weak evidence. Sometimes circumstantial evidence can be very strong. Sometimes direct evidence (like witness testimony) can be very weak. My guess is that the biggest chunk of wrongfully convicted death row inmates were convicted because somebody lied on the stand.
Or mis-identified.
But now we are off in a whole other direction.
Agree that circumstantial evidence can be telling.
Also believe it can mislead.
I’ll disagree on the Margo “givens” as being facts and then shut up.
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
One is more than enough, IMO.
many people agree with you and many people don’t.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
What? Now Junior is a girly boy?
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
I just meant "many" of us right here, on this website
Meaning we have discussed it and analzyed it and put it under the microscope or whatever, and decided that, yeah, did it.
For me it was tough. I tried to put aside my anger over the whole deal with Shane and really go back and look at his fights, and read Holloway’s account of his sparring injury, and read and re-read the testimony of CSAC. And yeah, it’s a given for me now. He did it, as far as I’m concerned, and I do not believe it was the first time either.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Meaning, I do not believe that the Cotto fight was the first time he loaded
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
My guess is that he started loading after he lost the Williams fight. I know the Lujan fight was before that, though, so that could be wrong.
Lujan was his first big main event in the States since the Diaz fight, his first fight after his loss to Santos and his big return to the welter scene. I am almost a hundred percent positive that this is when he started loading.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Williams said after the fight
that Margo’s punches felt harder as the fight wore on. A lot of guys said things like that, long before there was even an allegation.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
And Williams would probably know.
He loves to give them and he loves to take them. Too many in fact.
Oh Lord,
Marciano’s punches likely felt harder to people as a fight wore on too.
Could be a few others.
I said I’ll shut up, and I will as far as arguing the point goes, but please do just take a few minutes to educate me on exactly what was found on Margarito’s wraps, the amounts of same (was it soaked into the wraps or in a thin layer on an insert?) and the science behind the hardening as the fight goes on—
His hands don’t sweat?
And the science on plaster wraps overall.
But why didn’t those loaded hands guff Williams up? He was hit.
Either something has an effect or it doesn’t. Can’t pick and choose spots.
“Didn’t fuck up Lujan’s face over the course of eleven rounds—
But it did work on his ear that was ripped half off.”
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The substance found on the pads were the same materials found in medical casting compounds. In other words, the sort of calicium sulphate a doctor would use the create a plaster cast to protect and stabilize an injured limb.
Obviously, they were already at least partially hardened in the dressing room… that’s how they were discovered. And broken hands and arms and legs also sweat… particularly in the summertime. It can drive you crazy sometimes too, since it causes rashes and stuff that are almost impossible to reach.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
As for the science behind casts hardening, basically the plaster begins to harden immediate after it’s mixed, and usually creates a fairly firm and form-fitting mold about ten or fifteen minutes in. It usually takes about 30-45 minutes to harden completely and become rock solid. Or, approximately the length of a prize fight.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
One question I’ve always had (and note that I do think Margarito was loaded) is, if the purpose was to have the plaster harden over the course of the fight like this, then Margarito couldn’t have used the same pad for multiple fights, right? I would think that once a pad has been plastered up for one fight, it becomes unusable in the future. So the fact that the confiscated pad had a blood stain on it matching the one in the picture taken after the Cotto fight wouldn’t really be meaningful, contrary to what some have said.
Of course, that doesn’t mean he wasn’t loaded for the Cotto fight or other past fights. It just means that he would have had to have used a new loaded pad each time.
The pads
could have originally been for hand protection.
They used to put sponge across my knuckles for heavy bag.
(Not very effective)
If the rumors of Margo having an eye operation not long before the fight, if he had as much taken out of him in the Cotto fight as Cotto did (who took off more time?), if a big welterweight like Margarito came in underweight (and he did), looking drained enough and weak so that even a simple fan like myself would say “He’s in a world of shit” as soon as I saw him—-
And if a lot of the camp’s fears were played out when Shane not only outfought Margarito but was easily stronger than him—and that was not to be expected—maybe he loaded for the first time. Maybe not. Now I am going on vacation for a while.
Really.
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
According to Naz, there was a hardened plaster block that was hidden beneath layers of gauze and covered with fresh plaster. The idea here being that the new casting material would harden around the older cast, fusing with the gauze wraps cementing the weapons in place. So yeah, it’s possible that they were his “lucky pads.”
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
That is
the most compelling if it’s fact.
You gave me a visual to work with, jrok.
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
--
the amounts of same (was it soaked into the wraps or in a thin layer on an insert?)
But why didn’t those loaded hands guff Williams up? He was hit.
Either something has an effect or it doesn’t. Can’t pick and choose spots—
"Didn’t fuck up Lujan’s face over the course of eleven rounds—
But it did work on his ear that was ripped half off."
Have you every punched someone repeatedly with a hand cast?
But thanks for the answers jrok.
Again, I would not defend Margarito but I will continue to wonder about the circumstantial evidence about his earlier loading (though I can also construct a thought pattern of—“Why not?” or “Why this one fight?” As for the effects and effectiveness of the plaster—-
Especially in the manner they were trying to cheat with it. …
Well, I question most everything.
There is anecdotal evidence from football players in casts.
And people have repeatedly hit other people with hand casts on.
Just not, to my knowledge, with a thin layer across the knuckles.
To insure that I stop now, I think I’ll take a day or so off from the site.
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I just realized you wanted me to answer these questions
So I will and then I’m done.
the amounts of same (was it soaked into the wraps or in a thin layer on an insert?)
Thin compared to what?
But why didn’t those loaded hands guff Williams up? He was hit.
Just like everyone else, Margarito was punching uphill on Williams (who boxrec now lists as “six-one”, which is bad comedy). Not enough leverage.
Either something has an effect or it doesn’t. Can’t pick and choose spots—
Not sure I understand this one, Don. Something can be effective, but more so or less so on occasion. It’s all relative. Williams might have roared over Tony like a pickup truck if it hadn’t been for the wraps. In fact, I bet he would have.
“Didn’t fuck up Lujan’s face over the course of eleven rounds—
But it did work on his ear that was ripped half off.”
Sheared off, was the way it looked to me. As though by an object with one or more hard corners or edges on it. For instance, “a old, square block of plaster”, as Richardson described what was found in the disgusting cheater Antonio Margarito’s pads.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Well, I think that I'm going away, but I'm a bit obsessive.
Let me say that there are three points that interested me here—
1) Was Margarito trying to cheat? The answer to that has to be a pretty definitive, “Yes.” I feel he should have been banned for life.
2) Had he been cheating, loading his gloves, for a long time? For that I say that there is no definitive answer—logic might say, it makes sense that he was cheating all along, but that’s not enough—for me at least. The “evidence” people are offering is not that compelling to me. Bricks are bricks—punch up, punch down (as in Williams case—and Williams was hit cleanly a lot in the Margo fight), they are going to do their damage. Shearing an ear—as you put it—in the Lujan bout would seem to be difficult without cutting the glove, and the question was why didn’t Margarito guff up Lujan’s face heavily if the gloves were loaded enough to shear his ear half off? In other words—why did bricks damage the ear heavily but not the face? Yet the main thing is this: The discussion about “when” he cheated has become, likely due to a lack of articulateness on my part, conflated with my third point of interest. …
3) Was the way that Margarito’s team attempting to cheat effective? Would the “loading” work? As I said, this and question number two seem to be becoming conflated in the discussions. This last question is the one that you gave me a image to work with: The brick hard pad and, over it, the gauze that was treated with plaster. It was a strong picture that made me think that yes the technique could have been deadly-effective. Yet the more I considered it, the more that I found that there were still more questions for me than answers. Anyway, I never disagreed with the majority on question one, I do disagree on the evidence for question two, and it’s question three that actually interests me the most at this point, but has little to do with guilt or innocence and seems to hold little interest for anyone else—which is fine.
by Don From Prov on Jun 11, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Look, I wasn’t in the room I’m just repeating more or less verbatim what Nazim descibed seeing and what was tesified too. They match up. And yeah, it sounds like that would to the trick, alright – molded casting around some bricks. Good tensile strength for protecting your knuckles, and a hard, heavy stable surface for smashing faces and kidneys.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I talked to a non-boxing fan friend who is a Emergency Room M.D. back when this was all happening, and told him that this guy got caught with casting agents in his wraps. His first reaction was immediately to say “What the fuck? You could kill somebody with that.”
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I understand Junior demands high thread counts (for his bed linens) wherever Arum puts up. It’s on his contract that he will accept only the softest
by pakinpower on Jun 11, 2010 2:04 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
EPIC JCC JR. POST COUNT, NOW!
I gotta get outta here now. This is just horrible.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Man, where did that masked man come from?
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Almost 200 posts now!
I blame this weekends ho-hum schedule.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
It’s funny. If you let your mind complete Junior’s motion up there, it’s almost impossible to not see him sticking out his tongue and doing a little girly hop when he lets go of the ball. Try it. It’s almost impossible for that photograph to end any other way. His pitching form looks just like my six-year old niece’s.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
And baseball is a popular sport in Mexico.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
He is throwing like a girl…
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Yes, he might e a girly boy!
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
What do you mean by "might"
Throw a wig on this and your done.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
What's funny about this photo
is that he was fighting the camera at the time and the camera took him the distance, only to lose a narrow split decision.
A Pete Rose by any other name would still smell of cheap hookers and pinetar.
by Pops Daniels on Jun 12, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha!
But i think you might be mistaken there Pops……I heard the camera knocked him out! :)
While everyone seems to be slating young Chavez,i have to say I remember seeing a picture in the Ring a while ago of Sr and Jr kissing on the mouth.I found it quite disconcerting and downright creepy to be honest.I mean,i’m close to my dad but there’s no need for that shit.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 12, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Cotto - Margarito 2
The new WBA junior middleweight champion Miguel Cotto is open to a future rematch with Mexican rival Antonio Margarito. The tough Mexican handed Cotto his first career loss in 2008 with a TKO in eleven rounds.
“If he settles the issue with his suspension and the money is right, it’s possible,” Cotto said.
Precisely what I said rgb
Too much money to walk away from. In fact, there is no bigger payday for him. And it’s a fight (almost) everyone will pay to see…..and NO ONE will miss seeing.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanShots on Bad Left Hook
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
