and the finite nature of any career, can dictate a lot. And Cotto must see the end.
Ethical/moral/personal stand vs. money? In America in the 21st century? Mismatch.

So, which fighter would have more left?
They both took a lot (the essentials some might say) out of each other.

I think that age factors in.
I also think Mosley took more out of Margo than Manny out of Miguel.

on a maybe has its risks.

I guess it’s proven fact that Margo loaded for Miguel.
Just look at Cotto’s face, which has never been guffed up like that.

For a site that prides itself on a lot of logical thinking there is little here on this subject.
But, I surrender. Life is too short.

I’m in complete agreement with you about agreeing to disagree.

Though I don’t necessarily feel that he didn’t load against Cotto.
So, my argument—if there is really even one—isn’t with you or your conclusion.

It would be with a general sense of “this is a given.”
But like I said, life is too short.

P.S. You’d also right that my sense is that he didn’t have to load for Cotto. Later.

DC, that it’s more a matter of logic.

To say or take for granted that he loaded once means he must have in the past.
We can all surmise—

Or have opinions.
I think it’s easy to make a case why he might have started to cheat after the Williams fight. But I see no compelling proof that he did, and none that he did earlier in his career.
The whole idea of loading handwraps and whether or not it would be an especially effective way to cheat, or whether—particularly—the Margarito team was doing anything that would have resulted in effective cheating interests me. There are a lot of questions that I’d like to ask someone like EZ-E, who was a top professional fighter and has been involved in training at high levels of the sport as well. But, to the original point—yes, I seem to have gotten a hair up my ass about stating as (or as if) fact, Magarito’s history of cheating.

I should let it go as to most it could be seen as a matter of semantics.
But when I get dug in on something—

And I really would like to ask questions of folks who might be able to answer them.

+1
+1

Is that how it works if I wished to say I couldn’t really argue with any of the three posts above?

wraps into bricks (anyone who’s had a cast has seen the process) and the difference between wraps that are like two stones and wraps where there are traces or flakes of already crumbled plaster in them, but that’s a long and complex argument on its own.

So, for the moment, to go in another direction about “proofs”—

Proof in fights: The Lujan fight is often brought up. Look at it subjectively: If my hands have been turned into bricks, how is it that I can beat on your face for eleven rounds and not leave you badly swollen and cut? If the reason that Lujan’s ear was so oddly injured was that Margarito was hitting him with loaded gloves—bricks—then how did his face not get badly injured as well? Example: Whatever you want to argue about Resto in the Billy Collins fight—padding removed only, padding removed and gloves loaded (another argument that stands by itself)— the results of Resto’s work are consistent: Wherever he hit Collins, he busted him up. And that is exactly what’s to be expected. If I hit you all night with brass knuckles, your whole face is going to be swollen, not just one part of it. Like I said, you can’t pick and choose—

If I hit your eyes with bricks, they will swell.
If I hit your ear with bricks, it will be damaged.
The idea that I could hit your face with bricks all night and not significantly damage it while the same bricks would destroy your ear is illogical.

Holy turned Rahman’s forehead into a grotesque sculpture—loaded gloves?

Marquez exploded Vaszquez’ nose in an odd manner—loaded gloves?

Marciano’s nose was split (as one writer said) like a walnut—loaded gloves?
More like freak outcomes of punches placed just so—and a host of other intangibles.

If someone can give me a logical explanation why a man with bricks for hands that will shear an ear will not also guff and swell his face, then I won’t at least look at the Lujan fight as a very likely case of a time not fighting with loaded gloves.

Resto and Collins = consistency and logical outcome.
Doctored (at the least) gloves bust and swell Collins up where he’s hit—
Not in just one spot.

Again, the wraps and what is or is not involved there is another question.

and did try to acknowledge it.

Metaphor or not, loaded gloves that are loaded enough to tear ears off should also produce other carnage. Logic dictates a certain consistency in any single instance of use.
Something is either lethal enough to bring about cause, or it isn’t.

Yes, the inspector signing off is another, and a longer argument. :)

wraps wouldn’t be exactly and only to ppower’s points either.

since casting involves particular steps—

How could it possibly be done during a couple of rewraps in front of witnesses?
Some vital and basic bit of argument is not passing back and forth here—

“Failure,” as they say in Cool Hand Luke “to commune-cate.”
A cast may make a club of sorts, but a some random flakes of plaster do make not a cast. If I cut off something that has been turned into cast to rewrap a fighters hands, and the cast is dry, it’s going to be obvious what I have; if I cut off still-wet layers of plaster soaked gauze, it is going to be obvious what I have. A rock-hard cast is just exactly that— a rock hard cast, and if one was cut off of Margarito’s hands that is what they would have had to hold up and show in the hearing—I’ve seen a cast that’s been cut off. Hard to miss.

Soaked gauze that had not yet dried when cut off would have dried into the same thing.

I believe that Kearns claimed he put several layers of plaster wrap onto Dempsey’s hands and formed what would essentially resemble a cast. If that is correct, and he isn’t lying, then Kearns must have soaked, or dunked those wraps, strip by strip into water and layered them onto JD’s hands. And, however he did it. Benbow and Cleveland Williams duplicated the process, Williams hit the bag several times and the flaking plaster crumbled.

The only fighter I know of who has admitted that his gloves were loaded is Luis Resto.
Whether or not he’s telling the truth, the manner in which he said it was done is logical: Lewis took him into a bathroom where there was a sink and prepared the wraps.

Turning a fighter’s hands into clubs would not be a thing one could do when anyone at all else was present without those present seeing what was going on. And even if you could get away with applying the wraps in private, as Resto appears to claim Lewis did several times, it was not on a championship boxing level, must have involved gross incompetence (or payoffs)—

And what would you have? In the case of Resto, a feather-fisted fighter—

You either have doctored gloves alone, or doctored gloves and loaded wraps.
And you then have Billy Collins’ Jrs. face.
In the case of the Cleveland Williams experiment, you seem to have very little.

And I don’t know what other evidence to go about wraps on as there seems to be none. ..
I do believe this—

1) It is impossible to make a cast out of wraps in front of other people & not have them see what you are doing.

2) Whatever Capilieto was trying to do, it didn’t involve a heavy loading, the making of some full sort of cast to turn Margarito’s hands into bricks (that might crumble anyway).

3) I don’t know what the “block” was and how effective—or not— it might have been.

4) I don’t believe Margarito—based only on my own opinion, consistency of injuries (as in the Resto/Collins fight), etc. that Margarito was a serial, and successful, cheat.

5) It is obvious that Capilieto was trying to load Margaito’s gloves in some way against Mosely; however, I also think that I can have every intent in the world of cheating; I can attempt to cheat, but that doesn’t mean that I am going to do an effective job of cheating.

I’m not putting words into anyone’s mouth.
I’m not doubting what Naz found: I am questioning exactly what it added up to.

And I’m trying to look at and think about a very multi-faceted subject, not to prove a point, but to ask that logic be applied: This discussion would work better in an actual conversation, I believe, as there are just too many side-discussions to veer off into.

I don’t intend any hard feelings; I just question some of the process of conclcusion— :)

too much? I may get touchy sometimes, but the same could be said of you.

There was a little humor meant to be there.
I agree that something hard, much like quarters in a bare hand, can add to the weight of a punch. I just get a sense about exaclty what the block was—

Or that it could do much. Someone might cheat—

To protect a fighter’s hands

To give a fighter a psychological advantage

To give him a physical advantage

None might work.

Nobody was saying back then (or are saying now) that the dipped his hands in plaster.

Fine, I’m saying that doing less probably wouldn’t == anything much worth the effort.
Or particularly pad the gloves.

I believe that I’m trying to at least get around to talking about something(s) wider.
And, since you’d rather I forgo the movie quotes, I think your not interested in that.

just that it was not like a rock, just “firm and hard”—which means??

and plaster-like substance on wraps.

Are not a fighters wraps already firm and hard?

So, If the pad is not rock hard, but (just as the wraps) firm and hard—
What does adding one more layer of firm and hard accomplish?

Hand protection?

Psychological edge?

Physical edge? Does anything beyond the psychological edge work in any way—

i certainly appreciate this one—

Of course, to do it properly, you’d need to practice. You don’t want to send a guy out there all willy-nilly.

.

:)

And it does go around in circles.
There are specifics that interest me, but seems it’s hard to stay focused on them alone.
And I do, and have seen (and appreciated) the specifics you refer to above—

It now would be time for me to go back to my last post or to the fights themselves—

Instead I will agree to disagree. I don’t want to go looking for an OY moment here.

And bonding the plaster, given the evidence of the Mosley fight, wouldn’t have worked either.

But that part of the circle is already buried back in threads somewhere—

And jrok is absolutely right: We have simply come back to the same point again.
And would again and again—