Mandatory Eight Count - Cotto-Foreman Afterglow Edition
by Brickhaus on Jun 9, 2010 9:05 AM EDT
in Boxing News Analysis
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Former junior middleweight titleholder Yuri Foreman to undergo reconstructive ACL surgery | ESPN
Former junior middleweight titleholder Yuri Foreman will undergo reconstructive ACL surgery and have torn cartilage removed from his injured right knee on Friday, manager Murray Schpipples Wilson told ESPN.com on Tuesday night. Foreman will be out for about six months. The fact he continued to fight for two rounds after the injury was quite a display of guts.
Ballpark brawl generates big ratings | USATODAY.com
The fight between Miguel Cotto and Yuri Foreman generated a 3.9 rating (about 1.9 million homes), HBO's highest of the year.
Roy Jones Jr. does a sensational job as HBO analyst for Cotto-Foreman fight | Boxing News 24
Jason Kim thinks Roy Jones Jr. did a bang up job as a replacement for Lennox Lewis. I agree, and frankly, I think he did much better than Lewis. His commentary was actually useful, and pointed out things the viewer might not otherwise notice. For example, I thought his discussion of Foreman's corner not cleaning up water well was an especially pertinent point that I hadn't heard any commentator make before. It's a damn shame that HBO says this was a one-off, because frankly Jones provided HBO's best commentary - of ANY of their commentators - in years.
Bottom Line, Arthur Mercante Jr. Adhered To The Rulebook | The Sweet Science
NYSAC Rule 210.17 says towels are not to be used to indicate submission; so despite the uproar about Mercante ignoring the towel thrown in the Cotto-Foreman fight, he was well within the rules to do so. Frankly, I suspect Mercante had no idea about the rule, and if someone really dug, they could probably find a number of Mercante fights where he stopped the fight when the corner threw in the towel.
Mercante was 1st man in ring at Yankee Stadium, not 3rd | CBC Sports
Chris Iorfida provides a counterpoint, saying that Mercante was wrong not to stop the fight after the towel came in, and that he violated refereeing rule number 1: you're there to facilitate the action, not to be the action.
A lot of drama going on with Haye's heavyweight title. Audley Harrison has vacated his European title and claims to be negotiating for a fight with Haye. Haye says he's still going after Klitschko. Valuev pulled out of his title eliminator with Odlanier Solis, saying he'll exercise his rematch clause with Haye. And reportedly Haye has turned down a 50/50 deal with Vitali Klitschko with no options, although I frankly doubt the veracity of that report. All of this seems to lead to the likely possibility that Haye will take the easy route and fight Audley Harrison next.
Bika-Mendy IBF purse bid | Fight News
Golden Boy win a purse bid for a title eliminator between Sakio Bika and Jean Paul Mendy. The winning bid was a mere $30,000, so there's a good possibility the fighters just refuse and don't make the fight at all. This has to be a huge comedown for Bika, who was scheduled to fight Jesse Brinkley in a televised eliminator. Brinkley pulled out with an injury, and was rewarded by the IBF in being made the mandatory without a fight. In related news, Lucian Bute will no longer fight in Romania this summer as he was unable to find a suitable opponent, and he will be defending against Brinkley in Montreal in the early fall.
Booth wins world title shot | Sky Sports
Nottingham's Jason Booth has secured a shot at IBF super-bantamweight champion Steve Molitor in England on July 23. Don't be surprised if this is just the first of many U.K. fighters getting title shots. Rendall Munroe, Ryan Rhodes, Matthew Macklin, John Murray, Nathan Cleverly and Kell Brook, among others, are all in position to get title shots in the near future.
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I’m almost 100 percent sure Sky meant to say Jason Booth rather than Nicky. As it is, I’m very excited for Booth, who’s looked tremendous recently. If – big, nay huge if – both he and Rendall Munroe win their shots, that would be a brilliant unification fight.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Jun 9, 2010 9:24 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Good catch
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Will, it sure as hell ain't Tony Booth!
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Chris Iorfida is righ to a degree. Mercante was correct as to his ruling about the towel, but he war far too visible and loud
in the manner in which he enforced that ruling. Invisibility is a referee’s forte. He needs to calm down.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
I agree that he was too visible and loud, but I don’t think it was a Larry Cole sort of “look at me” thing. I think Junior was genuinely impressed by Foreman’s guts, and it caused him to come off a little unprofessional. Hell, I could sympathize, though. Foreman’s guts impressed me too.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
"a little unprofessional" rok, you are in a slump
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Look, I stand by it. What should we do here, howl for his head? I didn’t the editorializing he did, but I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. The fact is we had a very good and memorable fight in Yankee Stadium with two lion-hearted guys and overall I think the fight was good for boxing, and that nothing Mercante did in there rose to the level of “ruining” any of that.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
"I didn’t like the editorializing he did"
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Mercante was dead wrong
I don’t really care about the strict rule – throwing in the towel is a deeply rooted fundamental part of boxing. It was a bad call and it’s a bad policy. Nobody knows the fighter better than the trainer, nobody’s watching the fighter closer than the trainer. Mercante is guilty of being more concerned with, in his words, that “the fans came here to see a good fight, I wanted to make sure they got a good fight”. That perspective, from a referee, is worse than it sounds. The man who tells the fighters to “protect themselves at all times” should not adopt as his personal goal that the fans have a grande old time at the expense of a fighter.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
he was well within the rules to do so.
You know what, that’s not even true. The existence of a fixed custom is an important part of interpreting the relevant law. Without knowing the stats, I’d be willing to bet that refs overrule the corner’s judgment, in the way Mercante did, less than 1/100 times. Mercante violated a rule for which there is sound policy, his violation creates a precedent, and it’s a stupid and dangerous precedent.
And as applied to the fight it was stupid. Foreman was done when the corner threw the towel in, his knee was already F’d. All Foreman did after that was stand in front of Cotto and take damage. Instead of proving Foreman’s heart, this fight merely exploited his heart at his expense.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
I actually think Mercante should’ve stopped the fight right after he saw Foreman limping. I mean, what could Foreman do at that point? There was absolutely nothing he could’ve done and I think he took unnecessary punishment for two more rounds. It was basically just waiting for Miguel Cotto to land that left hook.
Frankly, I think he just got confused
It seemed to me at the time that he just thought someone other than the corner threw in the towel. Obviously, if someone other than the corner threw it in, he shouldn’t stop the fight. Then again, Ahmet Oner (who’s a promoter, not a trainer) has done it at least once or twice before.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
From what I could piece together, it seemed like he asked who threw the towel and no one took responsibility. It could be that when the corner saw Foreman’s disgusted reaction, they had second thoughts and pretended they hadn’t thrown it in. And that it was only after the fight was over that someone confirmed to Mercante that it had been the corner after all.
I think Mercante is a good technical ref. He is also a bit of a showboat, which isn’t a good thing, but what’s bad about Cole is that he is both a showboat and an incompetent. Mercante is not incompetent.
Damn Brickhaus!
You’ve just reminded me of Bakhtov-Kretschmann II, when Oner confused everybody by stopping the fight because Kretschmann groaned from a low blow… Crazy stuff…
THANK YOU
while i love to see a (exciting) fight go the distance, i think it should have been stopped the first time foreman slipped. he was obviously in pain and shouldnt have been allowed to continue.
On the Haye-Harrison fight.
Glenn McCrory has just posted a blog on Sky about why that fight should happen, which basically means its signed and sealed once Sky start bigging it up, I guess. Apparently, Haye deserves a voluntary fight because he’s fought Valuev and Ruiz, and apparently, Audley deserves a big fight for some reason. Very, very disappointing stuff.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
Pretty awful. I’d read somewhere that Wlad had lowered his demands considerably and was not requiring an option on future fights either against himself or Vitali. If so, Haye really just needs to shut his mouth and go on guarding his meaningless trinket against the never ending circle of Valuev, Chagaev, etc, etc, etc.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Jun 9, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Haye is starting to really lose my respect which was earned when he went to fight beltholder’s on their own turf.If the Klitschko’s are so bad and they need ridding from boxing(which i don’t agree with),why is Haye so bothered about getting such a lucrative deal in the negotiations?
If he was as good as he says he is and they are as bad as he says,why doesn’t he go in there and rip their belts away,then make his big money?….Because he knows he can’t beat them,that’s why.I think,if anything,he’s gonna stall and wait for Vitali to get even closer to 40 while Haye fights all the joke contenders he has ridiculed the Klits for fighting in the past.I’d probably still pick a 40 year old Vit to KO him and think Wlad destroys him now.I did think at one point that Haye might have a chance but he’s just proving lately that he doesn’t want to fight-and after all the big talk.
I’m sick of his smarmy faced,smug hanger-on manager/trainer/promoter/flunky/goffer/groupie Adam Booth talikng like he’s Angelo Dundee and Haye’s Ali and I am looking forward to seeing one of the Klits wipe that annoying grin off Haye’s face.I am taking him off my profile(favourite fighters list)too. :)
One response
If he was as good as he says he is and they are as bad as he says,why doesn’t he go in there and rip their belts away,then make his big money?
Because he knows there aren’t any other big money names in the division. If he beats the Klits, sure, he could make decent money fighting scrubs at home, but they’re the whole gravy train.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Adamek,Povetkin,Solis,rematches with either Klit.
Plenty of well paying options.Haye has talked the talk for a long time now but is not walking the walk.
Brick's right...
A Haye/Klit fight pulls in tens of millions, whereas fights against those guys – while all decent fights – don’t bring in that much. However, no matter what the case is, he has to fight a Klitschko if he wants any credibility as a top heavyweight. I’d still be surprised if it doesn’t eventually happen, but any fight with A-Farce is a bit of a joke.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Jun 9, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Have to disagree with the boys’ club.The best time to make the Klit fight’s is now.Haye knows there’s a very good chance he gets KO’d against either.
That’s why he’s trying to drag it out.
The best time probably is indeed now
But I can certainly understand why he doesn’t. If you could take 8 figures for fighting a guy like Ruiz, rather than maybe 9 figures for getting the shit beaten out of you by Klitschko, wouldn’t you?
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 5:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes,
but i wouldn’t talk about how terrible the Klitschko’s are and how i’m gonna do a number on them,only to fail to back it up.
He should have gone about it in a more respectful way,like Adamek.
I know,Haye is full of hype and thats what sells him but the talking has gone on too long now.Time for action.Time to walk the walk.
by Matt Mosley on Jun 10, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I keep thinking
The British Boxing public is going to turn on Haye eventually. It was just too much talking and not enough action. Support can turn upside down if people start to see you as full of s**t. That’s why Booth sounds so crazy up there. He’s talking about the backlash like it hasn’t already happened, but I get the feeling even British fans are starting to tire of his routine.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
By the way,
would 8 figures not be 10,000,000 ( £10 million).
I don’t imagine Haye got even £1 million for fighting Ruiz.
£100 million to fight Klit???I’m sure he’d snap their hand off! :)
Yeah
I meant 7 and 8…
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Mind you
Haye got far more than one million for the Ruiz fight! His Gate and PPV sales were damn good. I don’t much care for him, but he does sell fights.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
But if he doesn’t go ahead and get on the gravy train soon, he might never get there. As it stands now, he could conceivably fight both brothers and make a boatload in the process. I’ve always thought he should fight Vitali first, who he has a better shot to beat, which would then set up a fight against Wlad as he attempts to avenge his brother’s loss. If he waits too much longer, Vitali retires, and he’s left with one fight against a guy I don’t think he can beat. Plus, there’s always the chance he could lose a fight before he even gets to the brothers, however unlikely that may be.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Jun 9, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
True True
And I do think there’s a good deal of truth to the assertion that he’s not in a hurry to fight them because he knows there’s a good chance he’d lose, possibly embarrasingly.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I know there's a bit going round about Wlad offering a 50-50 deal.
But I’ve also read that that’s rubbish. In all fairness, it doesn’t really sound like the Klitschkos providing a deal like that; HOWEVER, I don’t believe for a second that Haye should be dominating these negotiations. Sure, he’s got a belt and the Klits clearly value the sanctioning bodies (I’m guessing because it adds to their name value in Germany, where they love a title), but Haye has still done very little compared to either of them. Moreover, Haye might have done extremely well out of the Ruiz fight, but those guys pull in 50,000 people when they’re fighting nobodies. It really should be deal in favour of the Klits, and I don’t see how Haye can complain.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Jun 9, 2010 12:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
mercante was beyond awful all night. just what collins said, if the corner throws in the towel its over. plain and simple. reminded me of the classic movie “kickboxer” when Tong Po kicked away the towel and continued to beat the piss out of van damm’s brother.
theres also the fact yuris whole corner soon after throwing in the towel all came into the ring which should have been an automatic disqualification. hbo trying to sell that the towel did not come from the corner was pretty shameful and pretty bizarre.
then of course there was mercante repeatedly telling manny stewart “no coaching” when he lost his mouth. when advised by manny he wasn’t actually yuris trainer he starts screaming “I KNOW, I KNOW!” seriously man?
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
.
right – as soon as “the towel” flew into the ring, Yuri’s corner came in the ring to tend to their fighter. They didn’t complain, say “it wasn’t us” or any of that shit. It was immediately clear from the circumstances that Yuri’s staff tossed the towel.
I agree with Brick’s statement above that the ref should make sure the trainer is actually the one that threw the towel in. But – that wasn’t the issue, Mercante tried to make that the issue after the fact. Mercante wanted to “make the fight” – that’s what he was doing. And that’s not his job, and as I’ve already said, it shouldn’t be his job.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
I mean, I get what some guys here are saying about Mercante, but I really think it was a matter of Foreman looking him in the eye and saying “No, I want him to take it from me” and that got to Mercante. I think it was a mistake, but I think it was an honorable one. He went with the wishes of the fighter over that of his corner… “You got a lotta heart, kid,” he said, and it was true.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
HHmmmmm. Man, Jrok, you are curttting Junior some serious slack here. His track trecord is not exactly stellar!
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Look, I am saying that in this case I think Mercante made a mistake by not pulling the plug, but that it wasn’t born out of anything other then Foreman showing tremendous grit and Mercante wanting to let Yuri finish his very short moment in the limelight on his own terms. Like I said, after seeing him fall down the second time, I would have put an end to it and probably so would the majority of competent referees. I am already hearing guys here that have demonized Steele for stepping in when a potato-faced Taylor wasn’t responding to his commands, but now, of course, Mercante is pilloried for letting a fight go on where a guy wasn’t beat-up looking or on the verge of brain damage and was begging him to let the fight continue. Best reffing job ever? No, but this talk of getting commissions involved or whatever does not fly with me. Save that for the real travesties, otherwise appeals for them will lose their teeth.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
by jrok on Jun 9, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
he’s getting lampooned for over-ruling the corner, not because this fight was analagous to Meldrick Taylor and Steele.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
He is allowed to overrule the corner.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
which he shouldn’t be – not in that direction. In the other direction, absolutely.
Thus, a major part of the topic of this thread.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
which he shouldn’t be – not in that direction.
Well, I disagree. There must be a final authority, and that has to reside in the referee.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
The final authority should definitely be the refere
And a fighter, if they are not taking serious amounts of damage, should certainly be allowed to continue fighting. Foreman wished to carry on, and didn’t put himself in any danger beyond the ordinary, and I think that is admirable. What Mercante did was to facilitate Foreman will, based on his own discretion, and within the rules.
I have no problem with that, seeing as Foreman wasn’t exactly massively cut or risking brain damage.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 6:00 AM EDT up reply actions
His histry has been to let fights go dangerously long as in Hurtado, Bea Holland, etc. He needs to error in the direction
of protecting the fighter. He is not the best out there.Though I have seen him do good work as well.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
meh – we don’t let fighters decide if they’re good to fight. We also don’t let victims serve on juries – conflict of interest is a bitch.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
Exactly. It shouldn’t be up to the fighters who know if they quit they will be called corwards and quitters and sissies, by a very sexist sports culture. It’s up to those whose job is to protect the fighters from themselves!
Good stuffe here, Very good.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
we don’t let fighters decide if they’re good to fight.
Sure we do. It’s done all the time. Refs ask fighters if they want to continue all the time. So do their corners, frankly.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
the two circumstances are very stark, Jrok.
Refs aren’t bound by a fighter saying “yea I’m ok”. They can still stop the fight (as can the corners, by throwing in the towel or just coming into the ring).
As I said above, corners know the guy better, know when he’s in trouble, AND have their own motive to let the guy continue. So when the corner is saying “let’s stop it” – that should be primary, top of the food chain evidence that the fight should be stopped.
Let this play out, completely abrogate the corner’s ability to stop the fight, let’s see what happens. We’ll have promoters guaranteeing our bloodthirst will be satisfied by their cards.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
As I said above, corners know the guy better, know when he’s in trouble, AND have their own motive to let the guy continue. So when the corner is saying "let’s stop it" – that should be primary, top of the food chain evidence that the fight should be stopped.
It is evidence. And the referee is free to weigh it. And he can get it wrong, too.
I’ve seen corners stop fights prematurely. Even recently Did Buddy “know his guy better” when he stopped the Hatton fight? Paulie was losing badly and had zero hope of winning, but wanted to go twelve. He surely would have, too.
Let this play out, completely abrogate the corner’s ability to stop the fight, let’s see what happens.
To stop a fight here, you have to force a DQ by getting into the ring. You can’t just “throw a towel” and the fight is magically ended. Only the doctor or the referee can stop a fight. In the corner, the ring doctor cleared Foreman to fight and Yuri made clear he wanted to fight through it and see what he could do.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
and Paulie had an issue with his corner as the result Was that a bad stoppage? no, Paulie was just plain taking damage. DID HE have a chance at winning? not a prayer. So what was the problem? – Paulie got his feelings hurt because he’s got a TKO on his record? In order to prevent “Paulie’s feelings” you want to withhold the corner’s ability to stop the fight?
To stop a fight here, you have to force a DQ by getting into the ring. You can’t just "throw a towel" and the fight is magically ended.
Why is that a good policy? And, how is that better than just throwing in the towel? Now we’ve got a guy with DQ win on his record instead of a TKO – that sounds really equitable. Plus, we’re asking some fatassed old man trainer to hop on up into the ring while his guy’s getting his brains battered out. – If I recall correctly, YOU are the one who props up the importance of Steele stopping the Meldrick Taylor fight at that very second in order to potentially save Taylor’s life. NY’s putting that future Medlrick Taylor context at risk by adhering only to this rule and overruling the real rule.
It’s funny that this is NY thing – the state that refuses to sanction MMA because of it’s cruelty. The advent of the new social backwater? (And I live in Texas!)
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
Plus, we’re asking some fatassed old man trainer to hop on up into the ring while his guy’s getting his brains battered out.
Oh bullshit. It’s not any worse than a towel. You might not even see a towel. Hell you might wind up TRIPPING on a towel.
– If I recall correctly, YOU are the one who props up the importance of Steele stopping the Meldrick Taylor fight at that very second in order to potentially save Taylor’s life.
Oh come on, now Yuri’s life was in imminent danger? Is that really what you saw?
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
no Yuri’s life wasn’t in danger – it probably wasn’t good for his knee, but whatever. The thing is, I don’t even hear you arguing that the fight should’ve continued.
My main concern with this is as precedent. And in a sport rife with graft and assorted sketchy bullshit, it is another factor that can be controlled by a promoter. Which is just plainly not good.
On the actual procedure – the thing is, the trainer can do both, he can throw the towel and move into the ring at the same time. Why remove the option? What’s the down-side of allowing the trainer to stop the fight? I see a whole lot of positives from the current policy, and not much draw-back besides Paulie’s frosty-tipped feelings.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
The thing is, I don’t even hear you arguing that the fight should’ve continued.
You don’t hear it because I never said I thought it should have. I think I would’ve stopped it after I saw he flop again without a glove touching him. But that’s different than calling for investigations and whatnot of Mercante, which I don’t think are warranted. Maybe he didn’t make the greatest call, but it wasn’t some situation where Yuri was getting bashed apart, like in some Smoger fights I’ve seen. He was still trying to win, still defending himself, but just moving really badly losing his balance because of that leg.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
perfect example of a ref where this shit could go wrong (apart from promoter corruption) – Steve Smoger. Fighter’s corner wants to stop it, sees their fighter taking damage, baby crying in the audience, wife wincing, all that shit, but good ole Steve came to get some blood splatter on that dirty ‘stache and he wants it to go on. (=) terrible policy. All in the name of what? -
Only the doctor or the referee can stop a fight.? – I don’t get the import of that mantra in comparison to what a towel throwing trainer might be protecting.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
On the actual procedure – the thing is, the trainer can do both, he can throw the towel and move into the ring at the same time. Why remove the option?
Ass storied a history as it has, I’ve never been a big fan of “throwing the towel.” Waving it from the apron is okay, but throwing shit into the ring can be a recipe for disaster. The ref might not see it until it’s too late, for one. People could trip on it. Hell, some dope could wind up accidentally throwing it over someone’s head and getting him clunked.
Basically the power is vested in the ref to stop the fight, even in cases where in-round corner stoppages are permitted. The ref still has to acknowledge it and signal the end of the bout. A cornerman can’t just pull an Oner and ring the bell or signal the timekeeper or whatever. The buck stops at the ref and the doctor, with the commission as a failsafe.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
"As storied"
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Jrok -
what is the downside of allowing the current custom to continue?
For me, the risks (or inevitable consequences) are apparent, I’ve stated them. Systematic convenience/efficency doesn’t justify that policy. Is there another reason?
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
You are missing certain realities here. For one thing, Grier could have easily stopped the fight in the corner after the bell rang, when Mercante went to talk to him. There in the corner, he is perfectly within his rights to stop the fight. He didn’t. That’s because Yuri convinced him (and Mercante, and the doctor) that he could still fight.
You know what? He could too. Not very well, but he was able to hang in there and defend himself and attempt things. He just couldn’t move very well, and the leg wouldn’t hold. So the fight got stopped anyway.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
precedent my man, precedent. Steve Smoger popped a woody when he saw that fight, so too did some promoter who thought “I’m gonna bring back old school boxing”.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
What Mercante did was completely according to the rules. He wasn’t setting some “new precedent,” he was following the rules here. You just didn’t know about the rule. A towel was thrown, which caused the action to stop (just as it would have been stopped if a tee-shirt or a bottle had been thrown in there) but there was no one up on the ring apron, and the two fighters were in the middle of an exchange, where Yuri was fighting back fine. Maybe that’s why Grier hopped off the apron, because he thought he might’ve made a mistake and cost his fighter the fight.
Then, in the corner Grier changed his mind about Yuri being able to continue. I fail to see the problem here.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I knew about the rule, it’s announced on every single fight card I’ve ever watched. But the rule is trumped by a set custom.
you fail to see the problem because you’re confining the issue to a single fight – that’s not the issue. You’ve tried to make the issue:
1. the procedure of throwing in the towel is faulty
2. Mercante shouldn’t have been lampooned because Yuri wasn’t in that bad of shape
3. efficiency justifies only allowing a potentially interested party (the ref) in holding authority to stop the fight
4. It’s not new because the rule was already there.
None of those things are the issue.
It’s a terrible precedent, and it is a precedent. I don’t care what the rule says, it’s not a brand new rule and I guaran damn tee you that refs in NY have overwhelmingly allowed trainers to stop fights through that procedure, as have refs around the planet. Therefore, that little rule is irrelevant, as the landed custom trumps it. Or at least it was until Arty got into the quality control business.
Now what we have is a brand new precedent, an abrogation of the custom in favor of and I’m paraphrasing Mercante but quoting the accent here, “du fans came tu see a fight, so I was gunna make suuuwe dey saw a fight”. – Now uh, that’s a bullshit policy. It worked out fine once, but it’s awful in the long-run.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
The oldest rule of all is that the fight proceeds at the referee’s discretion. It is an awesome responsibility that makes that make the James Joyce / Armando Gallaraga blown call seem piddling by comparison. It also naturally causes a lot second-guessing and 20/20 hindsight and howls of outrage that are more meaningful than in any other sport.
When’s the last time you saw a cornerman throw (or waive) a towel when he wasn’t up on the apron? Mercante stops the fight and there’s nobody on the apron. The round ends. Mercante talks to the corner, lets the doctor look at Yuri. Everybody says he’s okay to continue. I’m not painting the issue in any way or talking about “hurt feelings” or any of this stuff you brought up. I’m saying the ref made the call that Yuri, while fighting hurt, wasn’t in imminent danger and everyone else agreed with his call… including Yuri’s corner! So there is no real issue here.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Grier and the whole staff came IN the ring and tended to their guy, Jrok – they conceded AFTER Grief threw the towel in. They weren’t just on the apron, they were IN the ring. Did you see all that bitching they did? Yea me neither. Mercante had to start looking for an excuse to start that thing back up.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
They jumped in AFTER. And they all conferred. And the ref made his ruling. And they conceded to it!
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
They didn’t say shit until Mercante started acting confused about what happened.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
There was a commmisioner in there
You think if Grier was so sure he wanted to stop it, he wouldn’t have turned to the commish and screamed “Stop this shit right now!” Remember when he did that? No, me neither.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
got me there
the commissioner’s generally do have the best interests of the fighters in mind. Yeeeah. Remember when that happened? – yea me neither.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
That’s not the point. He could have just say to the commish “I want this stopped” and it would’ve been stopped. Guarantee it. Not because they are arbiters or moral goodness, but because they’d be afraid of getting their asses sued off.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Mercante had to start looking for an excuse to start that thing back up.
Mercante doesn’t need and “excuse.” It is his call. Why is this so difficult to understand?
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
because it shouldn’t be, and almost never actually is his call, Jrok.
Throwing in the towel is universally understood as the END in boxing. This is new, this is different, this is bad.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
This is not new or different. It can be bad or good on an individual basis, just like all the other decisions a referee is paid to make.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
It IS new. It does not happen, independent of the rule. It’s like getting pulled over for going 71 in a 70. In some states you can’t even get fined for that based essentially on estoppel.
Same thing here – that rule is void because it’s been waived in a HUGE majority of the instances where a trainer throws the towel.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
This isn’t a court of law. I’m not that well-versed on legalese as you are, but I know boxing rules and there’s no “oh its close so the rule doesn’t count” from what I can recall.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Isn't the real issue the corner, in this caseJoe Grier?
We all now know Mercante made a call that many disagree with but was within his rights according to the rule. I happen to be one of those fans that thought he made a terrible call. The fight was of no value after YF hit the floors the second time. In fact, it was over once his knee went out the first time.
But in the end, it was the corner’s failure to act consistently in their fighters best interest that should really be the issue. Grier threw the towel….but failed to stand up to Mercante. Then, once YF made it back to his corner at the end of the round, he should have had the cojones and dignity of Eddie futch and said: “Son, That’s enough. No one will ever forget what you did here tonight.”
Not to get too legal here, but in my jurisdiction, and I suspect most, custom, no matter how well established, doesn’t trump an express statement of law, i.e. a statute. Applying that here, the rule is the rule, and what people have been doing for years shouldn’t be relevant.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Jun 9, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
sure it does, or it’s certainly capable of doing so depending on the context. Hold on.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
I can’t believe I’m going here, but anyway…
I am a lawyer. In my jurisdiction, the law is categorically that “neither custom nor usage nor practice may prevent the enforcement of an express statutory provision.” Clement v. South Atlantic SS Line, 128 La. 399, 54 So. 920 (1911); Wray-Dickinson Company v. Commercial Credit Company, 192 So. 769 (La.App. 2d Cir. 1940).
Now I’m going to hang my head in shame for posting legal citations on a boxing blog.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Jun 9, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
DAMN YOU CIVIL LAW JURISDICTIONS!
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
you mean the law that’s followed in most of the world? :)
by The Boxer Rebellion on Jun 9, 2010 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Only if you consider China to be civil law
Which I guess it is. But that’s a different way of making things up as you go along.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
FWIW, what I thought was happening at the time was that Grier ran in the ring to convince Mercante not to stop the fight because he hadn’t thrown the towel. Of course, we know now that he did throw the towel, but it’s possible that he might have changed his mind immediately after throwing it. As jrok notes, Grier showed no desire to have the fight stopped at any point after the towel came in.
Guys fight on with all kinds of injuries… busted hands and arms and rotators, busted eye sockets and jaw, torn ligaments. Not as well as they could, sure, but they try to fight through it and see what they could do. Did I miss the part where Yuri stopped defending himself or trying to engage? No, because that did not happen. He did both.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
This is definitely an interesting and worthwhile debate.
For what it is worth, I come down on jrok’s “he should have stopped the fight, but let’s not make a federal case out of it” side. Yuri wasn’t taking major punishment from Cotto, and desperately wanted to keep fighting. I think the non-stoppage was within the very edges of Mercante’s discretion, so I’m not bothered by it. Change any one of the variables even slightly (Foreman not being as adamant about continuing, Cotto landing more damaging blows, this probably being the apex of Foreman’s career), and I likely come down differently.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Jun 9, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
How about change the ref? – What if it’s Smoger in a different fight? – You want that guy making the discretionary call?
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
It is always subject to human error. That is just a reason to remain vigilant about individual referees, not to change the rules.
And even Smoger isn’t as bad of a “throwback” as some people paint him. Perez has blown far worse stoppages. And old school guys like Charlie Daggert made them both look like Humanitarians of the Year by comparison.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Human error?
It’s the way Smoger operates Jrok – that’s why we’re using his name.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
Like I said… Smoger is Mother Teresa compared to some guys like Perez, or Daggert, or Ruby Goldstein.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Mercante didnt make policy or set a precedent, he’s not Justice Roberts. Under unified rules, only the referee can stop the bout. Next time a corner throws in the towel, the ref will use his discretion, just like Mercante did here, just like Steele did with Taylor. Mercante’s decision to let Foreman continue will have absolutely nothing to do with future stoppages.
As for his decision, the champ was hurt but clearly said he could go, fought gamely, and wasn’t dazed. I thought Mercante’s ballsy refereeing contributed to a great fight. He stopped it the instant Foreman got dropped by a punch.
who threw the towel in the ring in Taylor?
Mercante’s decision could very well have something to do with future stoppages. If I’m a promoter, I’m using this, and frankly I’d promote it.
As for his decision, the champ was hurt but clearly said he could go
Been through that – really not relevant. Every fighter says they can go. MOST trainers say their guy can go no matter what. So it’s especially poignant when a trainer says “no mas” – and therefore they should continue to have the authority to stop the fight. It is a safety valve in the den of corruption that swallows most of boxing.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
Been through that – really not relevant.
It sure as hell is relevant to the fighter! I’m not one of these “let’s go back to 20 round bare-knucklers” guys, but there is a middle ground that you aren’t allowing for. Let’s not throw out the baby with the bathwater. This is still boxing. Yuri was able to have his moment in the sun, and show a whole stadium full of people and people around the world guts and determination and all of the great and noble things about the sport.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I don’t care about Yuri – I would’ve stopped it before that, but whatever.
I care about “now what”? – something you don’t seem interested in addressing.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
So the champ saying “I want to fight” is irrelevant, but the Mercante Precedent will somehow guide future referees?
I meant Steele used his discretion and was criticized for it too, not that there was a towel thrown.
It’s the ref’s decision every time. The codified rules outweigh poignant tradition.
No… a custom does not make a rule disappear. It just doesn’t.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I'll send you one.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Yeah I got it.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
But not if you are just gonna yell at me.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
One the corner moves into the ring, the fight is over via DQ. Finito, end of discussion,
Poison Jones vs MAB is a classic example of that.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
No, it’s always at the discretion at the ref… even then! There is no magic switch that anyone can flip. Even when someone enters the ring, the ref has to say “It’s over, you’re disqualified.”
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
it’s always at the discretion OF the ref…
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Yeah, according to Wikipedia, but when has there been a case of a coirner entering the ring and a fight was continued?
I vaguely recall a few where the ref tried it and he failed.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
A recent example of this would be Martinez-Cintron or Hopkins-Jones, where people entered the ring but no DQ was called. It is ALWAYS at the discretion of the ref and the commission. Period.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Cintron had 5 minuets to get back in. And I don't recall his CORNER in the Ring. Maybe outside the riong where
he was down. I anm proud to say I did not watch Jones-Hopkins.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Ted I am talking about the Sergio Martinez – Kermit Cintron “draw”… NOT the Williams-Cintron fight.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
OK, Yeah that one was a disgrazia as Cintorn was waxed by a punch that the ref called a butt. WTF?
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
That's what I'm saying
It was pathetic what happened in there. But it was up the the ref. He blew the call.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Are you being truculent?
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
I am going to check with my close buddy, Dick Flaherty and get back to you.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
But I am not doubting your knowledge on this.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
I don’t know what truculent means, but if it means good then I am that!
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Look but seriously man, you were acting up there like I am one of these piranha who wants to see guys hurt bad and smashed apart and that’s not me at all, you know that come on. I just didn’t think that Foreman had crossed that line yet. He was skating it for sure, but we’ve both seen guys in far worse shape who’ve been allowed to go on. It’s not like he had two broken arms in there and was blocking punches with his head/brain. That knee was obviously unstable, but he was still trying to do things, and even sitting on it a couple of times trying to test it. He was obviously fighting on with a big disadvantage, but he didn’t look like he was taking undue punishment.
Like I said, I like to think I would have called it, but you also want to give a champ a little benefit of the doubt to see if he could pull something out.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Of course, I know that, but in this case, Mercante was waaaaaay off. Once
the knee gave out, he had zero-no chance of winning. What’s the upside of leaving him in there? To see him get waxed—which is exactly what happened. Mercante’s record speaks for itself. Res es Loquiter or whatever the Latin is.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
I understand what you are saying, but it wasn’t like Mercante waited for Foreman to get his head taken off. He just waited for contact. Mercante stopped it as soon as Yuri went down off a punch, which was a body shot. Mercante didn’t count him at all, and Yuri was not really hurt by that shot. But it goes in the book that he was down from a punch and that the champ was given several chances to do what he could.
I’m not defended any of Mercantes other calls, but this one didn’t strike me as horrendous, especially compared to some of his other ones.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
"I’m not defending any of Mercantes other calls"
Which is an understatement.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
No, this wasn't as bad as the others.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
That's because it wasn't bad...
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 11, 2010 5:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes it was. It was terrible!!
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
Well
We’re definitely not going to agree on this! Both arguments have been made, no point rumbling on.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 12, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
no, Paulie was just plain taking damage. DID HE have a chance at winning? not a prayer.
This isn’t a “just so” black and white arguement, not at all the way you are presenting it. This is a debate that’s been going on forever and will go on forever, in terms of whether stopping a fight because you don’t see any hope of your fighter winning it (rather than because you see him in a dangerous situation.) In that situation, yeah I think Paulie should’ve been allowed to fight on if he wanted to… and I loathe Malignaggi.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
To stop a fight here, you have to force a DQ by getting into the ring.
Didn’t Foreman’s corner do just that, and Mercante still refused to stop the fight? I’m actually okay with him ignoring the towel. It’s at least within the rules as written. Refusing to issue the DQ when Foreman’s corner got in there is pretty silly though.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
Yeah but we don’t know what was said. Mercante stopped the action because a towel had been thrown, then looked around to see who threw it and saw no one. It’s possible (I think even likely) that they were being evasive about it, and agreed with Mercante and the commission that the action should continue. Again, no single action (unless it’s by the commission or the doctor ruling) can stop a fight. There is no “magic trigger.” It is all at the refs discretion.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Booth claims Haye would be “shot to pieces” by critics if he fought Harrison after claiming he was only interested in fighting the Klitschko brothers.
“I would not like that fight as a boxing purist,” he said. "In Britain, it’s a fight people would like to see and it would generate some money in pay-per-view sales.
“But the criticism dumped on David would be horrific. He would be branded a coward and people would say he was running away from the Klitschkos. He would be shot to pieces
Geez… I’m sorry but when did this criticism suddenly become an issue for Camp David? It’s almost sounds like Booth is lampooning himself. I like Haye, but he’s done absolutely nothing so far to indicate he really wants to fight either one of the Brothers K. His campaign of the last couple of years has transformed him into the Boy Who Cried Wolf in the eyes of any serious boxing observer. That rep is already hung around his neck, and it is up to him to get it off… for crying out loud, it’s not Audley Harrison’s fault. Instead of talking about how you’re not going to fight Audley, how about talking about how you are going to unify?
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Mercante Jr
Icollins and Apprentice have it right—Mercante asked everybody in the room whether to go on or not except the doctor, and where were they anyway, when that was really the only person to ask. It’s clear that he WAS making the fight, he WAS (pretty much by his own admission) putting fan fun before fighter safety, and he WAS coaching. He did it with Clottey, but I thought it was because he thought (as I did) Clottey was maximizing the situation, and gave him credit on that account. This kid was clearly in real trouble with that leg, and Beethaeven Scottland (vs George Khalid Jones, June 26, 2001) is dead. Maybe he should do some thinking—he’s not going to get reprimanded by a commission as guilty as he was, but you can hope the uproar will have some effect.
Isn't the real issue the corner, in this case Joe Grier?
We all now know Mercante made a call that many disagree with but was within his rights according to the rule. I happen to be one of those fans that thought he made a terrible call. The fight was of no value after YF hit the floors the second time. In fact, it was over once his knee went out the first time.
But in the end, it was the corner’s failure to act consistently in their fighters best interest that should really be the issue. Grier threw the towel….but failed to both acknowledge it or stand behind his action. He had a number of opportunities. YF fell twice. Then, when he finally made it back to his corner at the end of the round, at least Grier could have had the cojones and dignity of Eddie Futch and said: "Son, That’s enough. No one will ever forget what you did here tonight."
When you stare at your own navel it's hard to see what's really in front of you.
Mercante was too obtrusive for my taste. It was as if he was a participant, not a third party.
Telling a fighter who has just twisted his knee to “suck it up” is remiss at best, assuming he didn’t see the knee go out. But a full minute later and a second unprovoked slip/fall? Junior ought’a try “sucking up” a torn meniscus sometime …..and continue refereeing, let alone facing Cotto.
And what about the Cheerleading. Since when is that the refs job.
I thought Mercante was too visible, too vocal, and far too absent when it came to protecting the fighter. If you disagree, no problem. But try explaining why he left Foreman fighting with no mouthpiece for a full minute. It wasn’t exactly a fight with none stop action and no breaks.
All great points and questions
I do agree that responsibility falls mostly within the corner of Yuri Foreman. I was surprised they let him go in round 8. What possible reason could there have been? Joe Grier knows better than anybody that Yuri had no possible chance of winning at that point. Before the slip happened, Grier kinda acknowledged that Yuri was losing the fight. He told him: “It’s time for you to take control over the second half of the fight” so, when the slip happened, he knew there was no point in letting it continue.
However, I do think Mercante was even more irresponsible because he’s supposed to be neutral and detached. He acted, not only like a fanboy, but like the fathers of fighters who are in the corners and let their kids get beat up way too much because they still hope his son can “pull it out” (A recent study in one of the sanctioning bodies revealed that fathers in corners are more likely to lead to accidental deaths in the ring). I know that Yuri Foreman was defending himself, but at that point it was moot. It was basically a game to see how long he would last with one leg. Not IF he could last, or IF he could win. Those two things were impossible at that time. Prolonging it might have just let him absorb unnecessary punishment and probably worsened his knee as well.
Not IF he could last, or IF he could win. Those two things were impossible at that time. Prolonging it might have just let him absorb unnecessary punishment and probably worsened his knee as well.
There should be a balance here. We could argue about where the line actually falls, but we’re often a little too clever when we are standing outside of a ring. Bottom line, Yuri was the champ in there and if the champ says “Don’t stop this because I think I can still find a way to win,” you have to give it some weight. You still have to have your eyes open, obviously, but the cynical view that he can’t possibly win is the other extreme. Yuri was defending himself, fighting back and landing punches. He had a bum leg. We just saw a guy just won a fight in the twelfth round with one arm, and it wasn’t for a world championship. Getting clever and saying something like “but it’s Yuri Foreman” or whatever is besides the point to me. Yuri had proven himself to be a top flight boxer and was fighting well up to that point. I think most of us had the fight even after four rounds. I know Manny Steward did.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Mercante is a good ref I just think
He went overboard with his power in the ring. I never heard a ref talk to anyone the way he was talking to people in the ring. I mean, he almost seemed pissed off that the fight was being stopped. Yuri Foreman isn’t Mercante’s fighter. Obviously the corner knew that their fighter was in a no win situation and that it might as well end early before Yuri really gets caught.
My question is this, what would’ve happened if after Mercante overruled the corner and made Foreman continue fighting and Cotto really clocked him one or two good times and knocked him out cold and Yuri has some devasting injury and never fights again? Would Mercante be at fault since he was the reason why the fight was still going on?
Great question.
Yes. It would have been a very different story. And a very bad one for boxing.
If, in NYC, at Yankee Stadium, Miguel Cotto knocks out and and permanently damages a lame fighter and the referee is seen acting imperiously like Mercante, it would be a day so dark that boxing might not recover. At all.
Boxing will never die
It has violence.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 6:23 AM EDT up reply actions
But it was a pretty great story for boxing instead, Mercante’s colorful antics aside.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
Damned if that wasn't the most entertaining mainstream fight in a while
People actually watched a good fight. When most people are only watching Pacquiao or Mayweather, it’s nice for another fighter to get a little traction. Between Mayweather-Mosley and Pacquiao-Clottey and the DLH fights, there was probably a bad taste in some people’s mouths.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Exactly
And Brick, when was the last time we saw Boxing on the front page of the Sunday edition for both the Post and the Daily News? It was a great night for boxing, and people got to see two champs with the hearts of ten lions go at it. That’s why all this talk of commissions and investigations bugs me. We should save it for the truly abominable stuff, otherwise we become the boys who cried wolf.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
He certainly would have a big play in it. And when you look at his track record, it gets worse. He is not the best referee
out there and we must not get caught up in his last name. Suppose, for example, his name was Arthur Smith? In fact, I was a bit surprised that he got the fight. And notice who they dedicated the fight to.
Look, Junior has had his share of very contraversial fights. Hurtado was almost killed by Whittaker and Bea Holland—well, let’s just say that was a real tragedy. When two fighters are in that ring, they depend on that third man to keep them from harm’s way if they are unable to protect themselves.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
When two fighters are in that ring, they depend on that third man to keep them from harm’s way if they are unable to protect themselves.
Is that what you saw Ted? You think Yuri wasn’t protecting himself?
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I think he was fighting with one leg. And that is just plain wrong. Here is an example of what I meant, however:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRiURENunq4
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
But this is what I REALLY mean:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x45s38_pernell-whitaker-vs-diosbelys-hurta_extreme
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
and this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fVHQAWh-r0
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
And, what the hell, I think I have sufficient clout to be angry about certain calls and not other ones. I was mad about Hurtado. I wasn’t mad about this one. Yuri was fighting back. After the second time he flopped I was yelling “stay down champ.” He didn’t and Mercante let him go again, but he wasn’t getting brutalized in there. He just wasn’t.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
It reminds me of Merchant staggering around during the Cab-Yordan fight, begging commissioners to “stop this massacre.” That was bile-inducing. There is a middle ground and the line did not get crossed in this specific case as far as I’m concerned.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I’m not sure if the two situations are comparable though. I mean, there are plenty of fights that are not competitive and I guess that’s really up to the fighter or the corner. But in this particular case there was an injury involved which is not life threatening but is definitely fight ending for a boxer who lives and dies through his feet. I think it’s not about treating all fights equally, but rather assessing it on a case to case basis. And in this particular case, it should have been stopped.
The doctor cleared him in the corner, so clearly he didn’t think the leg was broken. It certainly wsan’t stable, but he wasn’t dragging it like the mummy in there. Foreman clearly wanted to see if he could put something together, and I’ve seen far worse and more helpless performances from lots of two-legged guys.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
I'm with Jrok on this
I don’t see Mercante as being particularly at fault.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Jun 10, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant khalid jones vs Beethoven Scotland
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
He's not near the top of my list for good referees
But he’s not near the top of the list for bad ones either. I agree that if he wasn’t Arthur Mercante’s son, he probably wouldn’t have made it as far as he did. But the same could be said for Raul Caiz Jr., and I think Caiz is far worse than Mercante Jr.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Of the nepotism cases, Larry Cole is up there as well. Always ten thousand miles out of position.
Maybe nobody has been as sadistic as Tony Perez has been on several occasions. But you still have to go by individual performance because otherwise the criticism of the really bad stuff loses all its teeth.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
No, he is not a good referee. In any occupation, there is a bell shaped curce as to competence. Junior is on the lower left.
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
RJJ has always been a good commentator
…at least compared to other fighters. He’s better than Tarver.
HBO MUSTA FORGOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by The Boxer Rebellion on Jun 10, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The posts on this thread make me proud to be a writer on BLH!!!
Don't pick a fight with an old man, If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.
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