Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Ellenberger vs. Sanchez Heats Up, Hughes Talks Retirement

Has Boxing Become A Feeder Sport?

It pains me to say this as I am a big boxing fan, but the question popped in my head when Doug Fischer, the excellent quote:

So why am I writing about a 21-year veteran?
Toney’s a real fighter. Yes, he’s a shadow of the marvelous middleweight who took on all comers in the early 1990s, but when he says he’ll fight anybody, anywhere, anytime -- even after 83 professional boxing matches -- you can believe that he means business.

And when he says that he’s going to beat Couture, a 5-to-1 betting favorite, you can at least believe that he

And to be honest, I’d rather write about Toney than spend any amount of time pontificating on or complaining about the Floyd Mayweather-Manny Pacquiao negotiations.iter over at The Ring, went and visited with James Toney and gave us this comment: believes what he says.

 

Boxing has fallen and fallen hard.  its nearly impossible to watch top talent fight without forking over $50, its even more impossible to find good fights on DVD, and its the hardest thing in the world to figure out who the champions are as they are scattered across four or five different sanctioning bodies.  And on top of all that, the structure of match-making through different promoters and purse bids makes it next to impossible to see the top fighters fight until it is sometimes too late.  Farce fights like Roy Jones vs. Bernard Hopkins 15 years after anyone cared was just a vehicle to fuel Hopkins' ego.  Then we have the disgrace that is the Mayweather-Pacquiao negotiations.  In MMA, these two guys would be chomping at the bit to fight each other.  In MMA, guys like BJ Penn are willing to move up in weight just to fight the best even if they get crushed - and come out better for it.  The MMA structure is centered around the UFC, and this linear system with one boss who controls the purse, not only are top matches made but fighters are motivated to impress the boss.  But even in Strikeforce, they strive to bring in the top fighters they can find - witness Strikeforce Nashville. 

Toney's entry in MMA, along with welterweight Ricardo Mayorga and cruiserweight BJ Flores, is more about finding top flight competition and a way around the Byzantine world boxing match-making than it is about proving boxing is better than MMA.  That may be the conventional narrative, but in reality the reason why guys like Toney and Mayorga are really getting into MMA is because of the way boxing works.  Its a broken sport at its all-time low in popularity.  Yes, people will by a Pacquiao or Mayweather fight, but the sport isn't talked about anymore.  I would dare to claim that MMA is starting to get more mainstream sports coverage than boxing.  Fighters like Georges St-Pierre, Chuck Liddell, and Brock Lesnar have or are becoming someone household names in sports and the UFC has created an atmosphere where nearly every one of their shows is a can't-miss, while boxing spits out one can't-miss fight a year.  

The only thing going on in boxing that is truly interesting and delivering is Showtime's Super Six World Boxing Classic.  The usual turf wars have broken out here and there, but the tournament has been well done and has done something that hasn't been done in a long time . . . ensured top fighters do nothing but fight other top fighters.  And yet the names are still mostly foreign to average fight fans.  Another failure of boxing as a sport . . . its inherent ability to shine a light on its failures in hopes of a blockbuster instead of focusing on an outstanding concept with great fighters fighting great fights.

So with guys like Toney and Mayorga and Flores making the leap into MMA, is it a sign that MMA is the next evolution in combat sports?  Is it now the ultimate challenge in terms of fighting?  MMA has become dominated by fighters who can master several disciplines, and striking being on of them.  Will boxing now become a feeder sport where in the next 20 years its most talented young talents will eventually end up in MMA similar to top-flight wrestlers, submission fighters, and Brazlilian jiu-jitsu practitioners?  Not only these fighters, but top trainer Freddy Roach has opened his gym and his expertise to helping MMA fighters like Anderson Silva, Tito Ortiz, BJ Penn, Georges St-Pierre, and Andrei Arlovski.  Howard Davis, a former Olympic medalist, teaches boxing at American Top Team. 

Boxing won't die.  It won't.  Like baseball, its woven into our national sports culture.  And nothing will ever beat the spectacle of a big fight . . . 13 rounds of pure aggression.  I dare someone not to stand up for Carl Froch vs. Mikkel Kessler, Manny Pacquiao vs. Miguel Cotto, or Floyd Mayweather vs. Oscar de la Hoya.  But how often do these fights drop?  Once, twice a year?  Right now, MMA has taken over the young male demographic where future boxers may come out of.  Its traditional base in Hispanic and African-American community is being challenged as the UFC push Rashad Evans and Cain Velasquez. 

If boxing somehow doesn't fix itself, the next James Toney who's 20 years old right is more interested in MMA than in boxing.  Boxing is a grueling way to make a living, taking three or four fights a year each a grueling 10-12 rounds.  MMA is three to five rounds that in many ways is a lot safer.  As the UFC grows, its clear it is at the expense of boxing.  And because the organization of boxing today resembles the combat sports equivalent of the Holy Roman Empire, they seem helpless to stop this. 

You watch, as MMA grows and grows boxing will be relegated once again to just "another discipline" unless its top fighters can take a lesson from what those seven super-middleweights on Showtime are teaching.  Fans are tired of bloated records of guys like Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr being given tomato cans for five years and instead look to see if a fighter like Andre Ward can run a nonstop gauntlet through the top fighters in his division with nary a can in between.  The selfishness of both Pacquiao and Mayweather to put money and pride a head of the sport that has given some much is turning it quickly into the minor leagues of combat sports.

(I've posted this on my diary at Bloody Elbow to get the MMA perspective)

FanPosts are user-created content written by community members of Bad Left Hook, and are generally not the work of our editors. Please do not source FanPosts as the work of Bad Left Hook.

Comment 32 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Nice article.

Now…I’ll take a shot at this. I should point out that I really like boxing and I can’t stand the MMA or UFC…or whatever they are calling it these days.

For one…and you kind of touch on this…is that the “big time” boxers…the ones that draw the most…fight maybe once a year….once every two years. It’s not like it once was when the top boxers fought 5-6 times a year.

I think that is a major factor.

The issue of PacMan vs Money May….it really doesn’t matter if the fight happens or not. People always say "boxing needs this fight? Well…what is that fight going to do? Draw more fans? Nope. People might watch that fight who normally will not watch a boxing match…but they majority who do are going to go back watching whatever they were watching before.

Two…the fights aren’t nearly as intriguing. Boxing has lacked a real superstar or superstars for some time now. Especially in the most important division of all…the heavy weight division. Which as everyone knows…when boxing is going good it is because the heavy weight division is also good. The average “fight” fan does not care about the Klitschko brothers.

The middle guys have been carrying boxing for a long time. At least the last 10 years. Guys like James “Lights-out” and Roy Jones, Calzaghe, Hatton, de la Hoya, Money, PacMan….etc. And that isn’t very good for boxing as a whole because your major money making division has always been with the heavy weights. And let’s face it…the Roy Jones, Calzaghe, Hatton bunch…they aren’t the Haglers, the Hearn’s, the Duran’s, the Sugar Rays, the de Jesus’…etc. People just don’t care about the current crop.

Pay-per-view is another reason. As the talent level clearly dropped, the boxers in the ring less…the prices remained the same and they even took a few rounds off the fights. Nobody in their right mind would pay 50 bucks to watch Peter Manfredo Jr take on Hector “Macho’s” kid…. But those types of fights are what they show on the previews with some dumb title such as “Who R U Picking” It’s become a joke. Crappy fighters, less rounds and the price of watching a fight has increased ten fold.

I have a buddy who swears by the MMA and loves it. I finally got him to go to a bar with me to watch a big time boxing fight. Because it was the only decent fight with a 10 month time period…it had to be the ridiculous showing between Roy Jones Jr. and Tito Trinidad. And of course…after an hour of trying to tell him that not all fights are like that…he hasn’t watched or cared about boxing since.

MMA seems also like a show. Just like pro wrestling (I’m not saying that MMA is fake…it clearly isn’t)…it is a spectacle for the fans.

So as a result the money goes elsewhere (to the MMA’s of the world) and the talent will always follow the money.

Just my .02…and hopefully this helped.

The Once and Future King

by FlaGators on Jul 23, 2010 12:06 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Maybe in the USA, but in Europe and Asia boxing is still trucking along pretty good.

Keep Firing, Assholes!

Truculence, Belligerence, & Pugnacity

by Ubernoober on Jul 23, 2010 6:58 AM EDT reply actions  

I don’t know how the UFC is run or how it came to be. I kinda have a picture but I don’t know. My question is…..

Can’t something like that be done in boxing, or is it too set in it’s ways? Too corrupt.

It could be called The RMC. Ring Magazine Championship, and instead of it being hypothetical, they could actually run a championship for the elite fighters of boxing. Only the best get accepeted in. Then it would give up and comers something to aspire to, and no false champions. The BEST fight the BEST! WBA WBC and all that bollox would be considered trinkets! Boxing has to move with the times.

by Sweet science on Jul 23, 2010 7:37 AM EDT reply actions  

The UFC is the premiere organization that puts on the best MMA events in the U.S. I believe they put on more shows than anyone else in the States, a burgeoning international presence and a feeder reality show that helps develop and markets stars.

Boxing can not do this because there are many promoters and many titles. The UFC is the promoter, they hold the most significant title in the U.S. and they really do not have to worry about negotiating with HBO or beggin CBS or NBC to create a national presence. Think NFL, NBA and MLB . . . they’re so big they don’t have to worry about competition. If Floyd Mayweather was in the UFC, he would have fought Pacquiao back in 2007 or ’08. Right now we would be discussing their rematch.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Jul 23, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Canelo would be getting ready for a contention match.

With 3 or 4 highly anticipated and fun undercard matches

"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."

-Lao Tzu

by RoyalB on Jul 23, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

And going back one further as to why this is

TV wouldn’t show MMA. They thought it was too bloody, etc. Even the PPV carriers wouldn’t carry it. Dana rehabilitated its image and created a slightly different product that the PPV outlets were willing to put on TV. Since he’s the one who figured out how to do that in the US, he got a huge head start on everyone else.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 23, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

it could never happen

u would need the sanctioning bodies to all disapear (there are none in mma), the promoters to all unite under one banner and alot of people to give away alot of money for the better of the sport

so basically its impossible

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Jul 24, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

There sort of are sanctioning bodies in MMA

They’re just run by the individual promoters. UFC operates as it’s own sanctioning body. Need it to be external though when most fights are cross-promoters.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 24, 2010 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

like I thought

Boxing is too set in it’s way’s for a change like that.

by Sweet science on Jul 24, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Couture's only a 5-1 favorite?

Anyway, boxing isn’t becoming a feeder anything. A few old, shot fighters who can’t get decent fights anymore have tried going over to MMA (Toney, Mayorga and Chi). Big whoop. If an actual star was leaving the sport, I might be concerned.

As long as the top boxers continue to make more than the top MMA guys (even though lower end MMA guys make more than lower end boxers generally), the health of boxing will be just fine.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 23, 2010 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

Your right I don’t see a top star in boxing doing MMA, especially if he’s getting top boxing dollars that doesn’t even compare to what top MMA guys are getting.

- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!

by VeeisAnimated on Jul 23, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I find it sad and silly that boxers have no pride in their technique and have to resort to monetary gain as a reason not to fight.

If you say you’re the fighter, why be scared in testing those abilities?

"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."

-Lao Tzu

by RoyalB on Jul 23, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not sure I understand this comment

What I was trying to say is that as long as the top guys are making big bucks, a lot of other guys will still keep trying to be boxers.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 23, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

they can have pride in their techniques all they want

when they get to the ground (and believe me they’ll get to the ground) they’ll be utterly lost agaisnt a guy whos been wrestling for 15 years or a jiu jitsu black belt and the guy will either ground and pound their face into hamburger or leave with their arm as a souvenier

ray mercer is the exception not the rule

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Jul 24, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don't get this comment either, to be honest.

Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)

by Chaos100 on Jul 27, 2010 6:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Toney, Mayorga and Chi

You mean Injin Chi? Wow.

You forgot Mercer….. ;)

Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)

by Chaos100 on Jul 27, 2010 6:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mercer is an old man

I didn’t count him because he’s not really an active boxer anyway. He was a 47 year old who came out for a dog and pony show.

Yeah, I mean In Jim Chi. He’s fighting in K1 now, IIRC. Boxing really has died in Korea. Pretty much every Korean fighter these days is based out of Japan, other than Ji Hoon Kim.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 27, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let's be right about Mercer.

It was, as you so rightly call it, a Dog and Pony show. However, in an MMA fight against a guy that was clearly much bigger than him and had been the best of the best in the biggest weight class pretty damn recently, Mercer did what he had to do. Or as he put it, “I needed the money, so I knocked the **** out.” I’ve got a lotofrespectfor that, whether he’s 47 or not.

And I didn’t know Chi was doing that. He was a hell of a boxer. I was there in Manchester the night he came over and knocked out Brodie. I’ll always remember it, becaude the two guys in front of me were talking before the bout, and one said to the other that the ‘Jap’ was a bum, and they ended up betting 10 grand on the outcome of the fight. I was rooting for Brodie, but I thought after the first fight that Chi was going to beat him and beat him badly. Brodie was never in that fight; Chi was awesome that night.

Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)

by Chaos100 on Jul 29, 2010 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

However, in an MMA fight against a guy that was clearly much bigger than him and had been the best of the best in the biggest weight class pretty damn recently

Sylvia was also grossly out of shape and hadn’t been at his best in about three years.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Jul 29, 2010 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mercer hadn't been in shape for about 15 years.

I’m just saying that to completely forget about the fact Mercer went in there and did what he had to do against an obviously skilled guy who is that size and reputation doesn’t really do Mercer credit for what was, in effect, a suicide mission from which he came back in one piece.

Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)

by Chaos100 on Jul 29, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

It was a gentleman agreement boxing match in a cage

And the only thing sylvia was skilled at was using his tallness to pin people to the wall.

"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."

-Lao Tzu

by RoyalB on Jul 29, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, it wasn't.

It was originally scheduled as a boxing match, but Sylvia changed the rules at the last minute. That’s why Mercer was so pissed about it. There is a clip on youtube about it, where Mercer is walking back to his changing room after the fight, and he says straight to the camera words to the effect of: “He fucked me, it was supposed to be a boxing match and he changed it, and put me in shit street, but hell, I need the money, so I knocked the **** out!!”

It’s a great clip.

If you disagree, look for the clip (if I have time on a better computer I’ll link it) or otherwise just look at what happens in the fight: MErcer stands, Sylvia goes to throw a knee (not allowed in boxing matches?) and Mercer tees off on him. Then what happens? Mercer follows him down, and gets on top as if to G’n’P (also not allowed in boxing).

This was an MMA champion’s attempt to fuck over an old man and feed off the name value still associated with Ray Mercer, and he got whammoed (my new made up verb) in the face for his trouble. No more than he deserved.

Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)

by Chaos100 on Aug 2, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s not quite what happened. Tim Sylvia isn’t that evil.

They had meant to schedule a boxing match, but nobody would sanction it (Jersey essentially laughed them out of the room and asked them to please not ever ask such a moronic question again). They took it to Alabama then, but Alabama didn’t have a boxing or athletic commission. There is a tribal boxing commission that was going to sanction it. But then the Association of Boxing Commissions got wind of it, refused to oversee the fight, and it had to be changed to MMA rules.

The fight was on June 13, 2009. The switch in sanctioning and rules came on June 11. Cagepotato came up first when I googled:

Bruce C. Spizler, the Chairman of the ABC Legal Committee, referencing provisions first enacted by Congress in 1996 as part of the Professional Boxing Safety Act, stated that no person may promote, or fight in, a professional boxing match held in a state that does not have a boxing commission unless the match is supervised (regulated) by a commission from another state or tribe in the U.S. which is authorized by state or tribal law to regulate professional boxing matches; and if no such commission is available to supervise the boxing match, the boxing match may not be held unless it is supervised by the ABC. "Canadian boxing commissions are not authorized to supervise boxing matches in the U.S.; and, patently, it is wholly inappropriate for one representative from a Canadian boxing commission, together with an MMA referee, to supervise a boxing match," Mr. Spizler said.

Now this is where it gets a little less concrete. Word had gone around that despite the switch, Sylvia and Mercer had a gentleman’s agreement between one another to just throw hands, essentially making it a boxing match. Sylvia does attempt a kick early, and if you watch the fan video of the KO, you can hear someone say, “He wasn’t supposed to do that” (or something to that effect) in the crowd.

I don’t know if Sylvia — who isn’t a bad guy, I don’t think — might have simply done what he’s always trained to do without really thinking about it (what he threw wasn’t exactly with bad intentions), but he did throw the kick. I don’t even know if they had an agreement between each other, but that might be reflected in Mercer’s statement.

However there’s a chance they had no such agreement at all (I honestly stopped following that fight the minute I saw video of it, so maybe that’s been cleared up and someone can add in here), and I’m guessing there’s a BIG possibility that Ray Mercer was simply not told that the MMA rules had come into play. But Tim Sylvia isn’t the one who changed the rules. They would have simply not been allowed to fight if it had been promoted as a boxing match, because it was not sanctioned, and it was not amateur.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Aug 5, 2010 7:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

A well thought out perspective my friend, but I believe...

I really like MMA and I love boxing. The reason these guys jump is cause they are a novelty, a side show, a circus, a bearded lady. A few of these and no one at all will care. No one cared when Mercer did it. The only reason this has any juice is it is the UFC’s first real out in the open circus. (not including or comparing to UFC 1 and 2 and such)

Years back, NFLers and other athletes would always talk, and sometimes try to walk into boxing. It was impossible. Now days they think they can walk into MMA b/c they didn’t then and don’t know understand the techniques of either. As another post and comments noted that people don’t understand the true details of baseball or football the same can be now said for MMA.

And as I’ve wrote in another fanpost on here, MMA is feeding boxing. Groups that normally didn’t have acces to boxing gyms now have plenty with all the MMA gyms around. Now a kid can chose boxing if he has a talent for it while he is experimenting with MMA.

by John Genco on Jul 23, 2010 3:01 PM EDT reply actions  

That's one thing we'll have to see

I wouldn’t be surprised though. As you see the first generation of MMA fighters who literally grew up with MMA, will there be guys who end up in boxing just because they figure out their stand-up game is so much superior to their ground game, etc.? MMA should advance as a sport by leaps and bounds though over the next 20 years. With people growing up with it, people will come up with strategies people haven’t even thought of yet.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 23, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

see it'll prob be k-1 kickboxing though instead of boxing

muay thai is probably the most effective standup discipline and we’ve already seen plenty of mma guys cross over successfully into k-1 like alistair overeem who finished 3rd at last years gp

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on Jul 24, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Maybe

But still not as much money in K-1 as in boxing in the US, unless you’re willing to live in Japan and constantly do endorsements there like Bob Sapp.

Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

by Brickhaus on Jul 24, 2010 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

good article. and yeah, it’s sad that boxing with is long and storied history has guys leaving to make money elsewhere.

Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.

by theworldsoldestsport on Jul 24, 2010 12:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Guys like James Toney, for whom there is zzzzzzzeeeeeeeeerooooo demand in boxing, and Ricardo Mayorga, who only shows up half the time he’s scheduled anyway, can go ahead and leave, frankly. And BJ Flores is … well one time he told us he can get all the chicks he wants or something.

Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."

by Scott Christ on Jul 24, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

HA!!

Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)

by Chaos100 on Jul 27, 2010 6:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I've always seen Toney's move to MMA

as something positive. He’s past his best, in very poor condition and discredited after failing 2 drug tests – in any real sense his current status is that of ‘failed boxer’ and therefore goes for the backup option. I agree with some of your points about the problems in Boxing, but in 2010 not having Toney around makes Boxing look better not worse.

by BristolOne on Jul 27, 2010 2:10 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I say this as a hardcore MMA fan

The idea that boxing has become merely a feeder sport is retarded

by Patrick John McGreevy on Aug 3, 2010 3:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools


Managing Editor

261987_10150306736470923_747385922_9782182_6616581_a_small Scott Christ

Editors & Moderators

Aki_hair_cropped_small Brickhaus

Boxing_icon_small Matt Miller

Profile_picture_small Brent Brookhouse

Ingo_small A.F.

Contributors

Belt_select_small Waldo Rastel

Chris_celletti_headshot_small Chris Celletti

Duran-dejesus_small Kory Kitchen

051_small Thomas Hill