CATCHWEIGHTS
by D00M on Jul 25, 2010 9:25 PM EDT
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You know what irritates me? Those who continuously bash on individuals who fight at catchweights (Manny Pacquiao in particular.) Catchweights are perfectly legal by the boxing commission and it's been implemented for it seems as long as the sport has been around! What these people need to understand is it's an agreement that is made by BOTH parties, not just one.. These fighters know what they're getting into and there are both positives and negatives for both fighters agreeing to a catchweight. I constantly hear people crying that these titles in different weight divisions are completely irrelevant due to the fights not being in its true weight class.. Get it right, Henry Armstrong even fought in catchweights. Hopkins, Jones, Chavez, Sugar Ray Leonard.. the list goes on, folks.. There is nothing wrong with catchweights in boxing. It's completely legal in all combat sports.
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Catchweights are legal in combat sports but you have to note that some times the weight is dictated by the star fighter. The other fighter will simply accept in order to get the opportunity to fight the star fighter and make some good money.
I may be misinformed but didn’t Roach dictate the weight for Pacquiao vs. De La Hoya and Cotto?
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
For Cotto yes
I’ve never heard officially on the DLH matter but I’m pretty sure he made DLH starve. I remember DLH looked sick at the weighin and weighed in at something ridiculous like 144. Roach told Manny this guy is weight drained and to just go after him in round 1.
by GoldenSt8OfMind on Jul 26, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Welterweight isn’t a catchweight, and at the time, it was two divisions above where Pacquiao had ever fought. Roach, Arum, and company weren’t about to launch their golden ticket three divisions upward, so sure, DLH had to sacrifice. If he couldn’t do it and stay healthy, he shouldn’t have made the fight.
And emaciated or not, De La Hoya could not pull the trigger out there that night. That’s age working, not just some bullshit diet based on his blood type consisting of nothing but buffalo.
It's still the same for a non-catchweight fight though
More often than not, the catchweight keeps either side from having too much of an advantage. If there’s no catchweight, then the fighter moving will always have the sole disadvantage.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
NO!
Oscar is the one that called out Manny, Oscar is the one that dictated the terms. It was a welter weight bout at which Manny was fighting exactly at the welter weight limit of 147lbs. The Cotto fight to date is the only catch weight bout Manny has fought. Now let’s make things perfectly clear, as long as you don’t go over the weight limit, and we’ll use the 147lb division as an example, you can weigh anywhere between 141-147lbs, but the limit is 147lbs. A catch weight welter fight although still falls within this range, it’s the max limit that is being set, in the case of the Cotto vs Pacquiao that limit was set at 142lbs, in other words Cotto at weigh-in couldn’t be over 142lbs. Now come fight night of course he gain back some weight that put him over 147lbs. What Pacquiao and others that propose a weight limit are trying to do is guarantee that there opponent actually fights at the real limit (147lbs), are you confused? Allow me to elaborate, today’s fighters in light of modern training and supplements can cut weight more effectively thus allowing them to compete in a smaller weight class, but giving them the advantage come fight night with the water gain. Example, Clottey fights as a welter weight (147lbs) but hydrates to as much as 170lbs on fight night often giving him a huge advantage in size, see Diego Corrales R.I.P., Clottey looked like a middleweight against poor Corrales. Same thing against Pacquiao, difference is Manny is still in his prime and better puncher and boxer. Hope this helps!
by o0RaidR0o on Jul 29, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
against DLH
all DLH had to do was move down THREE EXTRA POUNDS from his previous fight against Steve Forbes.. but he ended up losing 2-extra pounds for some reason. Although i agree weight drain can have a massive effect (especially for a 35yr old,) Pacquiao had to move up and he couldn’t even make weight! He came in at 142.. It ended up being a risk for both fighters because Pacquiao moved up to fight @ the welterweight limit which he had never fought at. He began his career at 106 and his previous fight against David Diaz was at 135. People are just trippin’ ‘cause he’s doin’ work on all these fighters lol
all DLH had to do was move down THREE EXTRA POUNDS from his previous fight against Steve Forbes
That was a fight at 145 lbs if my memory serves me correctly. Oscar had not fought at that weight in over ten years. That’s significant. And I’m not interested in debating of Oscar v. Pac, Pac’s better. But it is significant that a 35 year old man hit a weight he hadn’t been at in 10 years, bottom line.
Pacquiao had to move up and he couldn’t even make weight! He came in at 142.
well, I’m being picky here but that’s not a proper way to say that. Pac did make weight. Making weight requires a fighter to come in at or below the contracted weight. Pac came in below weight, so he made the weight.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
3 lbs
and from my own personal experience, 3 lbs is huge. For me, the drop from 155 to 152 was brutal. I fought at MW (165) in the amateurs, but would weigh in at about 162 usually. I made the drop to 152 and it was fine until those last 3 lbs. And those last 3 lbs were absolutely disgusting.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
good response
i respect that response. my intention is really just to put the other perspective into play.. catchweights are legitmate in the sport.. and in the end its both fighters who are willing to take risks of possible deterioration in ability.
I don't think the fight was at 145 mate.
It was supposed to be at 147, but De La Hoya basically fucked up his cutting weight and ended up both dry as a bone and underweight, as well as then having the fun time of not being able to put the weight back on within 24 hours….
I could be wrong, and I know Oscar weighed in at 145, but I don’t think he had to. What amazed me was that he weighed 145 for the weigh in, and Pac weighed 142, then on fight night Pac weighed 148 (I think) and Oscar had somehow dropped to 144? Crazy.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
Here's the thing:
we (the boxing fans) place some value on a guy winning titles in multiple weight classes. Why do we do that? Why is it valuable to win titles in different weight classes? – In part, it’s valuable because as a fighter moves up in weight, he must use different skills to be succesful, or use the same skills at a higher and higher level. For example, when Jones Jr. moved up to HW, his defense had to be very sharp because he couldn’t tolerate being hit by even a small HW. He executed the game plan succesfully. Or when Tito Trinidad stepped up and beat up Wiliam Joppy, we got to see that Tito really did have power for that new weight class.
So, all these catchweight fights violate that principle. Instead of a fighter having to change or show his incredible skill at a landed weight class, he forces his opponent to shift into an uncomfortable catchweight.
This isn’t a “knock” against Pac, personally. Pac’s a legend, that ain’t changing. But, catchweight victories are not as valuable of “skins” as the same victory in the adversary’s true weight class.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
by lcollins1 on Jul 26, 2010 5:36 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Not really sure Ruiz classed as a 'small' heavyweight.
Also,I don’t put too much emphasis on guys moving up…
I think it shows that a fighter is great if he can do it, but Marvin Hagler never messed about with his weight too much…
In other words, it’s ‘another’ way to show greatness, in my eyes. Paul Williams, for example, is in my P4P top 5 based on the fact I think he’s a top 3 or 4 guy in at least 3 weight classes (147-160).
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
hence “some”.
and Ruiz is 6’2". That’s getting pretty small in the HW world of 2010.
"Yes Gina, I am a Wise Cracker"
If you take away the two top guys, then actually it kind of isn't.
People seem to think that 7 foot behemoths run the heavyweight division now. This isn’t true. Valuev was a massive guy, but unskilled, and the two Klitschkos are huge, but after them, who are the top guys?
Haye, 6’3’’
Chambers 6’1’’
Arreola 6’3’’
Adamek 6’0’’
I know we have others like Dimitrenko who are big too, but at the top of the division (with the exception of the top 2, as I have said) the guys aren’t THAT big. Ruiz wasn’t really a small heavy, he was a normal sized one, and at the time when Jones fought him the two Klits weren’t really at the top of the division, so he wouldn’t (and wasn’t) classed as a small heavyweight at that time. In fact, he was one of the bigger guys, since the other big guys that were prevalent at the time were Tyson (5’10’’), Holyfield (6’2’’), and Lennox (6’5’’), which would make only one of those guys bigger than him.
Lastly, you talk about Ruiz, the small heavyweight at the time Jones fought him: I fail to see why you then refer to
the HW world of 2010.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
It's legal - fair enough Doom
Danny Green holds the lightly regarded IBO cruiser title – 200 lb limit. But if you want to challenge him he demands a 185 lb catchweight. If you’re BJ Flores – a solid and fighting fit 200 lb and looking for a high profile fight – you’ll need to lose 15 lbs of muscle to get Green in the ring. This is where it becomes a joke.
We already have 17 divisions. If you wanna fight at welter, win a title at welter and defend at welter, then you should expect the other guy to come in at a max of 147 – if he chooses to. Moving up a division – fully hydrated and with less calorie restrictions – vs dropping down a div – dieting, dehydrating and losing muscle – no contest IMO. Pacman TKO Oscar was one result I managed to get right. .
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
by Goatsnake on Jul 27, 2010 1:07 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Green at 185 vs Flores at 200
Green TKO-3
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
"Sadly it'll never happen" - Ray Leonard
Unless Flores is past his retirement date.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
If you want to fight Welterweights and win Welterweight titles, then you need to fight at the Welterweight limit, 147. If you want to fight at junior middle weight and win titles at junior middle weight ,then you need to fight at the junior middle weight limit, 154.
If Pacquaio cant make 147 or 154 and he wants to come in lighter, fine. But dont force your opponent to drop down to a weight that you are comfortable with, knowing he’s not.
Perfect example: Oscar Dela Hoya vs Floyd Mayweather Jr.
This fight was for Dela Hoya’s 154lb title. The weight limit was 154. Mayweather couldn’t make 154, so he came in at 150. Dela Hoya came in around 165, 15lb heavier.
However Mayweather still beat Dela Hoya in his comfort zone. He didn’t ask Dela Hoya to lose 10lbs to fight him. He wanted to win the junior middle weight title with both fighters fighting at junior middleweight, which he did.
To me that’s greater than what Pacquaio did in the ring to Dela Hoya. Floyd actually beat a junior middle weight. If Pacquaio beats Margarito, he still hasn’t beaten a junior middle weight, not if Margarito has to drop down to 150.
So they shouldn’t say Pacquaio won 8 titles in 8 weight divisions, because 150lb is not a junior middle weight fight. So it would be 7 divisions still, and that’s without bringing up how 2 of the belts or titles were vacant and he didn’t even have to fight for them. So it really should be just 5.
Wow
You don’t understand how the weight classes work do you? Why on earth should titles only count if they are fought at the weight limits? Historically this was rarely the case, especially between the greatest boxers.
"All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him." - Jack Dempsey
by Drunken cutman on Aug 5, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand weight classes perfectly fine. I dont think you understand them.
Titles should be fought at the weight limits, because Pacquaio is now taking advantage of
being able to use catchweights. Everybody has to fight him in his comfort zone at the weight he walks around at, while he constantly drains his opponents to a weight of his liking.
Just check out 90% of the comments here. Almost everyone is saying the samething.
Pac’s titles, belts, weight divisions conquered are definetly misleading.
Check out the comment two comments down by “Polish Rifle”.
Everyone is on to Pac’s game.
I know it hurts you deeply to see all of these people taking shots at Pac’s legacy, but hey, hey chose this “Catchweight” path to fame.
Wrong
Manny has fought and won lineal titles in seven weight divisions. Only once…against Miguel Cotto….did he do so at a catchweight. In Cotto’s previous fight, he voluntarily came in at 146. Manny came up in weight to fight Miguel and he asked Miguel to come down one pound. One pound. One catchweight!!!
When Manny beat Oscar, Manny came up two weight divisions to meet Oscar…two….and Oscar came down just one to meet Manny !! Hardly unreasonable IMO. Nevertheless, Oscar was the huge favorite…..and Manny destroyed him.
When Floyd met JMM, he asked him essentially to meet him at a catchweight of 144…..essentially asking Marquez to come up two divisions just for the privilege of meeting him….and then he burned him by paying for the right to fight at the full welterweight limit.
As far as Manny’s proposed fight with Margarito, AM has been a welterweight since 1996. He fought his return bout recently at 154…. after losing his Welterweight title to Mosely. The man is a welterweight. Giving him a shot at all is arguable….asking to fight at 150 is meaningless. I know. there is this nonsense about a made up title. So let’s set it aside. The fact is that the next possible alternate for a match with Manny is Miguel Cotto…at 154…for MC’s title. Everyone complaining about Manny’s demand on Margarito seems to dismiss the fact that he is willing to fight for Cotto’s new Junior middleweight title at full weight.
So, as far as I’m concerned, this catchweight BS between Floyd’s posse and Manny’s is just that…..BS.
Manny has won 4 lineal titles, not 7
He has won 7 “titles” but only 4 are lineal: 112, 122, 126 and 140.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
He also won one at 130 (the rematch with Marquez was to crown a Ring champ there).
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
You're right. 122 was an error on my part.
The lineal titles are 112, 126, 130 and 140.
That’s what I get for trying to go from memory rather than looking it up.
"We've come a long way, and I'm not talking about Virginia Slims, either." - Art Howe
No he doesn't
Meldrick Taylor took Terry Norris’ Junior Middleweight title at 149 pounds.
That’s but one conveniently overlooked example.
Almost all catchweights that happened before 2008 are conveniently overlooked by virulently anti-catchweight people, I’ve noticed. Ray Leonard won a super middleweight title and a light heavyweight title in the same fight with Donny Lalonde. Catchweights in title fights have been around forever. Now if you simply think it’s wrong, period, then fine, that’s your prerogative. But it’s not new.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
And it hasn’t affected the legacy of Sugar Ray Leonard one bit, either.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
I remember Terry Norris stopping Meldrick Taylor around the 4th round.
I dont remember Taylor taking ANYTHING from Norris but a bunch of unanswered right hands.
My mistake.
My point was that they fought at 149, a catchweight ….for a Light Middleweight title.
Floyd fans too often like to use the catchweight to diminish Manny’s achievements…as if Manny were the fist and only one to ever us them.
They have been around forever. Check SC’s post above.
Why do you keep saying "Floyd fans" like to use the term catchweight?
I mean, that is what it’s called right? When you have two guys, one lighter, one heavier they want to fight, the heavier guy doesn’t want to lose too much weight and fight at the lighter guy’s weight, and the lighter guy doesn’t want to gain too much weight to fight at the heavier guy’s weight. So they agree to meet somewhere in between. The term for this is called a “Catchweight”.
How is using the term “Catchweight” demeaning or derrogative with the definition that I just gave?
This may not be true for you, but your ranting against the catchweight here is, through possibly no fault of your own, stirring the memories of the countless folks you can find online who like to dismiss what Manny Pacquiao has done because of the catchweights. I think that’s really all pakinpower is saying — there are a lot of people who act like the catchweights are some Pacquiao-invented conspiracy to put one over on other fighters, the public at large, the media, etc.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
As has already been explained, the problem with catchweights is that it makes things far more difficult for the bigger/heavier fighter, and as such can devalue the fight. Should Ray Leonard be credited as a light heavyweight champion on the basis of his win against Donny Lalonde, when he forced Lalonde down to 168 lbs? I don’t think so.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
I honestly have no real problem with catchweights. Both guys agree to it. It’s not that big of a deal, the titles are meaningless by now anyway, and who cares? Those of us who know will always know Manny Pacquiao’s “eight weight classes” is kinda bunk (shit, the 135 title over David Diaz is no peach either), and those who don’t know won’t have it explained to them.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
I dont have any problem with catchweights when its a guy moving up and maybe testing ground or anything like that, but when it comes to a title it should be at the weights limit. How can you say your the best ___weight of the world when you wont fight anyone who can still weigh in at the limit. If they want the title then be prepared to give up few pounds and show your the best anyway
"I'm scared every time I go into the ring, but it's how you handle it. What you have to do is plant your feet, bite down on your mouthpiece and say, 'Let's go.'" Mike Tyson
In a perfect world, I’d agree 100% with you. I really would. But the titles mean nothing. They are so devalued at this point that they have absolutely no genuine relevance whatsoever. They are trinkets for fighters to frame and put on their walls, or if you’re Zab Judah, to carry around in the ring eight years after you won them. Outside of Ring belts, I can’t remember the last time I cared a lick about any of the titles in boxing, or felt that any of them were a reason to watch a fight.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jul 29, 2010 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions
But without them, how do you quantify who is the best fighter?
I mean, even their existence proves something. “That’s the guy with the belt, but he couldn’t beat ‘x’”…
I suppose I mean,without the titles there would be no structure whatsoever. As long as there are titles, there will be guys fighting for them. If there were none, then there would be absolutely no reason for a guy to take a risk and fight another dangerous guy.
I appreciate that the individual titles are getting a bit silly, but if there were none at all boxing’s infrastructure would wither and die, as far as I can see.
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
I agree that the belts are pointless and have little relivence, but if a fighter chooses to fight for one the it should be at the weight class limit
"I'm scared every time I go into the ring, but it's how you handle it. What you have to do is plant your feet, bite down on your mouthpiece and say, 'Let's go.'" Mike Tyson
I kind of agree with you, and at the same time I kind of don't.
As you say, the belts aren’t a reason to watch a fight, because half the time they’re so devalued by the fighters competing for them and the actions of the sanctioning bodies providing them. However, they do still carry some degree of meaning beyond the fighters. Floyd Mayweather may not care about them any more, but he’s only able to say that because he’s already earnt status beyond mere titlist recognition. Without belts, fighters wouldn’t earn any recognition from the casual fan, and would subsequently have a very difficult time building themselves up. But yeah, the Ring belts should be the only ones that matter, without a doubt; however, that reputation will only be established if the promoters and the TV companies come together and actively dispute the validity of the sanctioning bodies.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Jul 30, 2010 6:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Without belts, fighters wouldn’t earn any recognition from the casual fan
And that’s a problem, not a reason to support the belts or that we should much care about enforcing a “no catchweights for the belt!” standard.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jul 30, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
What I mean is, there should be — and are — plenty of ways for fighters to gain recognition. Also I don’t think the belts even really matter much in that way. Has Andre Berto really had much added to his casual appeal or recognition because he’s “WBC welterweight champion”? Nobody gives a crap about his belt.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jul 30, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but Andre Berto becomes WBC welterweight champion and Lou DiBella can now laud him as welterweight champion of the world. FWIW, I just think it basically makes the promotion of a fighter much easier, because without that rubbish, they can’t call Berto a world champion. Of course, the belts are an absolute load of shit, but at the end of the day, until a lineal sanctioning body is the only recognisable body, they do – in my opinion – still help the promotion of a fighter. Just an example here: David Haye is definitely not the heavyweight champion of the world, but being WBA titlist has boosted his profile enormously.
"The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic"
by Oli Goldstein on Jul 31, 2010 5:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but Andre Berto becomes WBC welterweight champion and Lou DiBella can now laud him as welterweight champion of the world.
But so what? It’s done nothing for Berto’s career, really. He is no more highly-regarded since winning that trinket (over the great Miki Rodriguez, no less) than he was beforehand, other than a tough win over Luis Collazo,
Just an example here: David Haye is definitely not the heavyweight champion of the world, but being WBA titlist has boosted his profile enormously.
David Haye could hold the NABF title and the British press would be insane about it. But on this point I can agree: on a regional level, it does help, because that region’s media will pump it up. The UK having Haye as “heavyweight champion” is a big deal to them. Same with Japanese fighters holding major titles, or someone like Jan Zaveck or the like. But in the States, it does absolutely nothing that just making a good fight can’t do.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jul 31, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
David Haye could hold the NABF title
Now THAT would be impressive…. lol
Now, Tweek, boxing is a Man sport. There is nothing in the world more Man than boxing. It is Man at his most Man. So when you spar with Ned here, just dig deep into that most Man part of you. (Uncle Jimbo, South Park: Tweek vs Craig)
by Chaos100 on Aug 2, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
For all intents and purposes greatness in boxing is a highly subjective.
It is not a game, like baseball, of statistics, From the scoring to the ranking, the entire enterprise is subjective. Perception holds far more weight than numbers. How a fighter appears to advantage his opponent is more important than the number of connects. Who he fights and when is more important than the number of his victories. The challenges that he took and the challenges that he made (or didn’t) will be more important than the number of fights he had.
‘Champ’ is a word best used in the corner to motivate a fighter to give his best. It is used all to freely. Few of today’s belt holders are champions in anyone’s eyes but the fighter’s and his camp’s; promoters and networks included. The public couldn’t name three.
My point is that catchweights on occasion, today and throughout history, have little or no bearing on how a fighter will be judged or remembered. They are matchmaking tools to get two recognizable names together.
Whether it be P4P or History, scribes and true fans will know who took the challenges of their time and met them triumphantly. They may differ…but they will know who was good…. and who was great.
by pakinpower on Jul 31, 2010 3:22 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
REC
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
double rec
Frankly, even though more titles clearly waters down the sport, even in the “good old days,” fighters were dodged, shady deals were made, and many bad acts were done in the name of making and keeping a champ.
Primo Carnera was once the heavyweight champion.
Jake LaMotta had to throw a fight to get a title shot.
Sugar Ray Robinson and Marvin Hagler waited forever to get their shots, even when it was becoming obvious they were the class of their divisions.
Thankfully, boxing has an obsessive fandom, folk like us included, that determines true greatness. Belts are nice, but belts are forgotten.
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