Mandatory Eight Count - Enter the Ring
Dawson-Pascal ignites the search for more real champions | Ring Blog
I'll be doing a full piece on how the Ring ratings and titles work in the near future, but Eric Raskin just about did my job for me here. He runs through what would need to happen in each weight class without a Ring titlist for that vacant title to be filled. Most interesting is 140, where Devon Alexander dropped from #2 to #3 with his less than convincing win over Andriy Kotelnik, Raskin says that, if that fight is made, the magazine will reach out to the voting panel for their input. In certain circumstances, a #1 vs. #3 fight can be for the title, but it can mess things up a bit since then the Ring champ can be different from the lineal champ. Heck, right now there are 5 Ring champs, but they don't recognize one lineal champ, one Ring champ isn't a lineal champ, and one of the Ring champs didn't become Ring champ until almost a decade after he became lineal champ.
Antonio Margarito and the Handwrap Issue | Seconds Out
Thomas Hauser makes about as solid of a pro-Margarito argument as one can make. In a nutshell, if you believe the testimony at the hearings, Capetillo made an honest mistake that Margarito wouldn't have known about, and "elements of sulphur and calcium" could just be ingredients in salves and hand creams. It's basically a 'he said, she said' argument. If you believe Margarito and Capetillo, then Margarito's punishment was right on the money, or maybe even on the harsh side. If you don't, then you probably feel he should be banned for life. But Hauser makes a pretty good case as to why Margarito's story might be more believable than it looks at first glance.
Evander Holyfield-Sherman Williams Slated For Nov. 5 | Bad Left Hook
Let me just echo the sentiment that Evander Holyfield just shouldn't be fighting anymore. He's 48 years old. He clearly has neurological damage already. Whether he's facing a sturdy journeyman or not, the NYSAC had the right idea a half decade ago when they denied him a license. I can't tell another man how to live, but how's this - rather than threatening your own livelihood for our entertainment, try taking a small step back in your own livelihood. Not everyone lives in a 100 room mansion. You really don't need to either.
Donovan "Razor" Ruddock To Make Ring Return In October? | East Side Boxing
I guess you can add him to the list of comebacking '80's heavyweights who shouldn't be anywhere near the ring. The reason for the comeback isn't clear, although for a while Ruddock tried to remake himself as a George Foreman-style pitchman without too much success.
Former Showtime executive Jay Larkin, 59, dies of brain cancer | ESPN
Jay Larkin, once one of the most powerful people in the boxing industry as head of the franchise for Showtime, died Monday after a long battle with brain cancer. He was 59.
Meza-Clay vs. Litzau Aug 28 | Fight News
So it's not the biggest news in the world, but it's nice to see that Roy Jones is still promoting fight cards that he's not actually fighting on. Coming off his victory over Rocky Juarez, Jason Litzau tries to stay on the winning track against Monty Meza-Clay. Also on the card, fellow Square Ring veteran Derrick Gainer will take on Angel Hernandez.
Latimore Sends a Message: Wants Vanes To Step Up | BoxingScene.com
Deandre Latimore (21-3, 17 KO) is attempting to answer a challenge from Vanes Martirosyan (28-0, 17 KO), who is trying to call out the top dogs at 154 pounds. I actually like that as a fight for both of them, since Martirosyan has been underwhelming in wins this year over Kassim Ouma and Joe Greene. I would favor the more accomplished Martirosyan, but Latimore would be no pushover for him. I do not think Martirosyan is ready for Miguel Cotto or Paul Williams, which is the level of competition he's trying to get into the ring. [Note: write-up by Scott]
Brooklyn's Barclays Center deal has rankled some feathers | Sports Illustrated
Chris Mannix takes a look at the recently announced deal between Golden Boy and the Barclays Center, where Golden Boy will put on three fight cards a year in the new arena. One aspect of the deal that wasn't focused on is that, evidently, the deal is an exclusive with Golden Boy, and other boxing promoters won't be able to put on fight cards at the new arena. That has some promoters miffed, most notably Lou DiBella, who puts on quite a few shows in the New York City area, and presumably would have liked to have options between that venue and Madison Square Garden to get the place with the better rates.
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MARGARITO
Hauser’s argument is not worth two cents. Margarito and whoever wrapped his hand both should be banned for life from boxing. We are talking about loaded gloves giving Margarito the potential to kill a fighter or ruin him for life. We are not talking playing tennis but playing with an opponents life. Seldom would any liquid be put on a fighters hands or any other substance while wrapping them. When my hands were wrapped years ago I knew exactly what was going on because my hands were right there in from of me. They do not do hand wrapping behind your back!
The point being
Is that if Capetillo usually used legal knuckle pads, wrapped the same way, then Margo wouldn’t have necessarily known that he used illegal ones that one time. Personally, I’m inclined to think Capetillo and Margarito are full of it, and of course they’re going to try to make arguments to cover their asses, but if you believe their story, then it’s probably not worth punishing them for much longer.
Frankly, I do believe that the elements of sulphur and calcium came from something else other than an attempted plastering though. It might have been something else to make it hard, but if it was really plaster, then I have no doubt we would have heard all about it in the news and that the DA would have pressed charges.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
But in the article, a number of trainers make the point that it would be perfectly possible to put something in without the fighter knowing. I mean, its not a short article but if you read it through its right there. It doesn’t mean I think he didn’t know, but now I’m actually aware that there’s a possibility that he might not have known.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
There’s a possibility when I was 17 that my web browser wound up on a copious amount of porn sites and it wasn’t my doing, too.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Aug 10, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
the point
is simply that those trainers saying that they Could have done the same thing Without the fighter knowing means something. Its not as remote a possibility as all that, or one that is as open to ridicule as before, at least for me now.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
I just never thought there was any question that, sure, it could have happened. I’ve never been able to buy that it did, and still don’t. Hoof prints on a horse trail in Indiana could be from a zebra, if someone brought a zebra there. Probably aren’t, though.
I think — with all respect to others — that at this point we’ve basically broken down every angle, and the “pro-Margarito” (or perhaps, just pro-reinstatement is a better description) camp likes to point out that you can’t prove he ever did anything before. I agree. But you can’t prove he didn’t, either. My faith in athletic commission wrap-checkers is not exactly at 100% — that’s not Antonio Margarito’s fault, or Javier Capetillo’s, or anyone’s. There are a lot of people in all sports in positions like that who do their jobs more as routine than with real attention to detail.
But I really no longer have a super strong opinion. The case for reinstatement has, in my opinion, been stated well enough and convincingly enough — with an absence of facts to go against it — that I’m willing to accept his return. For one thing, it’s probably going to happen, and for another thing, I just don’t think there’s really enough concrete (pardon the pun) evidence to keep the man hanged, and that a lot of the very anti-return folks have a strong personal dislike of Margarito that’s speaking more than anything factual really can for the case. I don’t like their attempts to avoid California on the matter, though, and don’t like the idea that even if California says no, they’ll try to go through Texas.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Aug 11, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve never bought into him not knowing before either. But it seems much less of a complete load than Capetillo bringing out knuckle pads ‘by mistake’. It seems like its eminently possible rather deeply improbable in the sense of the origin of hoofprints on a horse trail in Indiana or porn on a 17 yr old’s web browser ;) I always assumed it was absolutely impossible for him not to have known, which is why the trainers comments were so surprising.
I personally just don’t know, but I do know that I’d rather not see him fight Pac just for the association with Capetillo, at the very least. It has been done to death anyway, the whole issue, but I’d never read much on it outside BLH before.
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Your Naazim Richardson quote of the day:
On Margarito, from the Hauser article:
"I’m the wrong person to ask about this. If a guy is driving a truck and tries to run my daughter over and misses, don’t ask me what the punishment should be. But to be fair, yes, a fighter might not know."
Which makes Shane Mosley his daughter. Which is kind of a cute level of protectiveness.
As for Hauser’s argument, which is nicely filtered through seven excellent trainers’ thoughts on the matter, many of whom say, Of course I could give my guy gauze without knowing it, I don’t think Hauser is making quite the argument the SecondsOut commentators think. This isn’t an exhonorating kind of article, but it is there to complicate your thoughts on this matter, and thus, surely, potentially piss you off.
Antonio Margarito is not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and even a smart fighter could be tricked into thinking he really had it one night. I still dislike that Margarito is getting a shot at the P4P champ this quickly, and would rather he fight in Aguascalientes for the next three years as penance. But, strangely, I no longer think he should never fight again. Lord only knows he’ll never get away with anything in the ring ever again.
You know, I'm not attacking anyone personally here, but there are times
when issues seems to move beyond logic and into incendiary reaction.
Valero was one case. A very easy target for any number of folks to dump angry contempt on. But the man was sick. That he murdered his wife and then took his own life indicates a much deeper and more complex situation than would be evidenced by the “cut and dry” hatred aimed at the man. He wasn’t just a violent and bad man, he was deeply disturbed.
Maybe, in the end that doesn’t pardon Valero, but I believe it calls for a more measured response to the man.
Margarito: Though it hasn’t been said out-rIght again so far, the underlying assumption that Margarito was a long-time cheat who won his fights with loaded gloves, is usually just behind any of these discussions. Again, I was as ready as anyone to see him banned for life for attempting to cheat. And I’m still not sure—and no one else on here, no matter what they think— is sure either of what happened. But I would hope that people might slow down and think logically instead of viscerally about the situation. We had a long discussion on BLH concerning Margarito as a long-time “cheat” and I cannot see how some realities can continue to be ignored—
It was generally conceded that loading Margarito’s gloves heavily with plaster is not something that could have been done over a period of high level fights. The loading process is not one that can be hidden very easily.
Too much soaking and wrapping.
At some point, jrok came up with a elegant theory that would nullify the need for “super loading” and explain how Margarito could have cheated over the years without heavy soaking and wrapping and that was based on using the old plaster to “bond[ing]” (someone also called it fuse) the inserts. It seemed a very logical argument—on both sides: If done properly, one yields a very high tensile strength; if not done properly, one is going to injure his fighter’s hands. A problem with the idea is that plaster is not super glue and it would still seem that a fair amount would be needed to bond or fuse the inserts—
Beyond that, the facts of what went on dispute the “long time cheating theories”
When Richardson had the wraps removed he saw some “flakes” of material and “traces” of a “plaster-like” substance—
The sulphur and calcium that the article and Brickhaus refer to.
Then the inserts fell out. First, “flakes” are dried particles. Period. This idea that the “drill” was to doctor the wraps and that they would dry over a period of rounds causing Margarito’s fists to become bricks as the fight wore on is given lie by this fact: Whatever trace element was in the wraps was dry, the process was over, and it didn’t work: The inserts fell out. If anything, what one is left with is the flip side of jrok’s theory: The inserts are loose and likely to damage Margo’s hands. The Mosley fight was the next-to-the last bout that Margarito had: If team Margarito didn’t know how to cheat by then. …
Then there is the history of Margarito’s fights. When did the “bricks” that he supposedly carried into fights ever produce the kind of facial damage that brick-hard wraps would logically cause? Was Cintron badly guffed up? Williams? Margarito was a large and strong welterweight who was slow and threw wide punches, but he threw a lot of them, and like Bazooka Limon before him, he landed a lot. People point to the Lujan fight and the torn ear, but let me ask a simple question—
How could it be that ones gloves were bricks that practically “sheared” an ear off, when those same “bricks” were not swelling the opponents face up: Bricks either cause damage or they don’t; causing damage to selected body parts is not an option. Then there is Cotto, a fighter who guffed up and who sometimes ran out of gas. I thought that Margarito would walk Cotto down, bust him up, and stop him. Just the same as Manny P. also did. In fact, if Manny had not for some reason let up on Miguel, he very well might have damaged Cotto’s face even more than Margarito managed to. There is no history of Margarito making fighters look like Billy Collins by a fight’s end.
The argument that some attempt at cheating was made during the Mosley fight cannot be disputed.
The argument that loading was a regular exercise for Margarito, and one effectively achieved, cannot be supported.
The Hauser points may lead someone to think Margo might have been unaware of what went on during the Mosley fight.
Or not. Each person has a right to feel however they want about Margarito, but basing ideas on facts is a good idea.
by Don From Prov on Aug 10, 2010 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
extremely well put
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
The physical evidence
People would usually point to Cotto (who had never been busted up like that before), Lujan (which is just plain strange) and Clottey (supposedly breaking his hand from blocking a punch), plus frequent statements from his opponents that it felt like his punches got harder as the fight went on (which came long before there was any controversy). Cintron didn’t go deep enough into either fight to get seriously damaged, and most of his hits were to the body. Williams had never been cut or swollen until recently. And frankly, nobody else got far enough in to take serious damage. I’m not saying the circumstantial evidence is compelling, but there’s plenty of it.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
by Brickhaus on Aug 10, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cotto had already had his lip busted badly by Judah--
an ongoing problem for Cotto since. I don’t have the recall that you may have Brick, but I do remember that I thought I had plenty of evidence to believe that Cotto was a fighter who would cut and swell up so that was no surprise to me vs. Margo.
It was exactly what I believed would happen. And again, Manny did almost as much damage, even when laying off.
Cotto cuts. And he swells. Margarito took a lot of shots in order to impose a lot of shots on Miguel.
Lujan is nostranger than the Rahman forehead or the Marciano nose: Freak things happen.
What would be strange, and what I’d ask you to explain to me, is how the “bricks” that Margarito used selectively chose to shear Lujan’s ear but not do any great damage to his face or ribs over the course of a long fight. Just not logical at all.
As far as the theory that Margo’s punches became harder as a fight went on—
1) People would say that about Marciano too.
2) Please explain, if whatever trace of plaster-like substance there was on his wraps was flaking, how in the world they would have “dried” as the fight went on. Flaking = dried. There is no way around that. Whatever was there was dried. And it didn’t “work”—the inserts were in no way fused to the wraps. Those are facts. There was no evidence of soaked or even slightly wet wraps that were going to dry over a period of rounds, and what “trace” elements were found had already flaked.
Clottey claiming he broke his hand while blocking a punch is just that—a claim, and a ridiculous one at that. If my hands are bricked up enough to break your hand when you block a punch, then they are surely hard enough to bust your face up over twelve rounds as well. It makes no sense to claim otherwise. As far a Williams goes, what difference would it make that he’d not swelled or cut before? Collins Jr. wasn’t given to severe swelling either, but doctored gloves do not = normal punishment. Again, if my gloves are bricks, then you are going to swell when I hit you. Williams is not superman.
And frankly, nobody else got far enough in to take serious damage.
I think that if you look at Margarito’s record, you’ll see that he went some rounds once or twice.
I’ll be glad to discuss this, but I’d ask that you—and you’re a lawyer and plenty smart—apply logic to your points.
by Don From Prov on Aug 10, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying the wraps were plastered
And that’s never been what I’ve believed (or if they were, it was done ineffectively anyway). But I do believe he tried to get an edge by using hardened wraps. Just not hardened with plaster. I’m just making the arguments that people would make.
Another one I’ve heard (but don’t buy) is that Margarito was a light hitter for the first part of his career who didn’t get many knockouts. That one I don’t buy because he started knocking guys out in 1998, when he turned 20. I wouldn’t expect a teenager to be a big puncher, and a lot of guys just mature later.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
Okay,
but I’m not sure how they’d be hardened—
And the results would still be the same: if they work well enough to half take off an ear, they should bust up a face.
I do understand that you are just making the arguments that others might put forward, but I just don’t feel they add up.
Not over the course of a career anyway.
by Don From Prov on Aug 10, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I hear ya
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
I think Lujan's injury was far stranger than Rahman's swelling.
I’ve been watching fights all my life, and I had never seen anything quite like it.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
Agreed
that Lujan’s ear—
and, to me, Basillio’s are the two oddest well-known injuries that I’ve seen.
by Don From Prov on Aug 12, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd
Lujan’s ripped off ear was one of the most bizarre boxing injuries I have ever seen and powerful if circumstantial evidence of something odd with Margarito’s punches.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
Wait a minute...
is someone saying Margarito may have had loaded wraps? WHY HASN’T ANYONE BROUGHT THIS TO MY ATTENTION PREVIOUSLY???!!!
by The Boxer Rebellion on Aug 10, 2010 12:33 PM EDT reply actions
dude
thats not what the article was saying at all. You should actually read it, its pretty interesting and measured, a bit like Don from Prov’s ;)
I hated every minute of training, but I said, ‘’Don’t quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'’ (Bernard Hopkins)
Read BOTH
pieces the original article by Hauser, and the one by DON, both of whom I respect and both were very intriguing and thought provoking and I gotta’ say I’m not ready to ban Margo for life. The comments by the various trainers in Hausers article were eye opening, most fighters I’ve observed getting wrapped are sitting on a chair with their hands on the back of another chair, if you’ve been gettin’ wrapped by the SAME guy for years it is concievable you may not be paying strict attention to your trainers work. I’m inclined to believe it didn’t happen for ALL of Antonios fights. Cotto…maybe, but prior to that I just don’t think so and like DON pointed out…none of us really know. Were I on the commission, I don’t know that I could deny him a license with the evidence presented so far.
How?
How could it be that ones gloves were bricks that practically "sheared" an ear off, when those same "bricks" were not swelling the opponents face up: Bricks either cause damage or they don’t; causing damage to selected body parts is not an option.
but I’m not sure how they’d be hardened—
And the results would still be the same: if they work well enough to half take off an ear, they should bust up a face.
1. It would matter at what angle they landed; no normal glove, wrap, or punch did that to that ear, it’s just totally counterintuitive.
2. Different people’s damage symptoms and tendency to swell vary widely.
3. For many years, I both studied and created art, often using a variety of materials. There are all kinds of things, plaster of paris among them that, if repowdered, will reactivate—not quite as well as fresh, but enough, and the drying and hardening can vary a lot too. Flour, which they didn’t find, but something as simple as flour will act like that.
However, the question is not Were they loaded?( which I’m personally morally certain they were—not for his whole career, he’d certainly have been caught sooner, but not for the first time either). The question is Did he know it? And Hauser very convincingly demonstrates: Maybe not. He doesn’t look like the sharpest knife in the drawer, he’s had them wrapped zillions of times; you don’t watch fascinated as what is for you a very routine and likely boring thing takes place. I do find it odd that he wouldn’t feel it at some point, but if trainers of that calibre all say it could happen, it could happen.
Every fighter is responsible for himself legally and morally if something isn’t right on his watch—and so he was responsible whether he was aware of it or not, he was supposed, more so than anyone else, to be watching. But I can see it that if he didn’t know about it, even though he should have known it, he’s paid his dues. One thing is, I’m not so sure young boxers are fully aware that they are legally responsible for deeds committed on their watch, so maybe the whole thing helps straighten them out on that. They are used, likely, to others watching out for their interests, but they need to know it’s in their bests interest to watch out for themselves.
1) No normal wrap or punch sliced Marcianon's nose open either.
Nor swelled Rahman’s forehead like a cartoon. Or maybe it was the angle of the punches.
Counterintuitive = the freak punch that exploded the Vazquez nose. Counterintuitive proves nothing.
2) If I—who’s skinny and aging— hit Viatli K. with “bricks” for long enough I’d swell him. I’m willing to bet on that.
3) Repowder? When, between rounds? And There were “trace” amounts of something—
Flakes. Please, be serious. We’re not talking about an art class. This debate has be devolving into fiction a long time.
What is the “it” Margarito should have felt? No, don’t answer as I need to stop going back and forth on this—
I need to know when to quit: If people refuse to look at facts, any claim is possible. Recent history has taught us that.
I mean no disrespect. I’ve been noticing your posts lately and enjoying them. Just not going to argue against illogic.
(I do realize that I made that last word up.)
Again, for the third??? time, I will withdraw from this particular conversation. It’s going nowhere.
P.S. Someone can “look” like a dull knife and be brilliant. Someone can look brilliant, but. …
Don, your analysis is as well supported and articulated as any I have read....
including Hauser for whom I have great respect. Major props !
I have always contended that the evidence that Margarito knowingly prepared to enter the ring wearing ‘plaster casts’ against Mosely is simply impossible to prove…..and that the invective projected on him and the aspersions cast on his entire career are both excessive and ill-founded.
Love him or hate him….or neither…but dismissing every one of his accomplishments on the speculation that he cheated in every prior fight is just that…pure and absolute speculation.
The Antonio Margarito that I watched for the past five plus years was always in the greatest shape (his best asset and one that Emanuel Steward still contends may be) and capable of outworking virtually every one of his competitors. I did not see him as a destroyer. He barely beat and injured Clottey…and he lost to Paul Williams.
When he met Miguel Cotto , he virtually sacrificed his next best asset (his chin) to Cotto in the early rounds of their fight and the bottom line was Cotto wasn’t hurting or stopping him. That’s a Cotto problem, not a tell about Margarito. That same Cotto also whacked Manny and then admitted he couldn’t handle Manny’s speed. Again, that’s Miguel Cotto’s problem….one that has nothing to do with Antonio Margarito.
Antonio Margarito will be fighting again very soon. I for one will be watching, not to see if he can still fight with all the deserved scrutiny…but whether or not he can ever be the same man that fought Cotto and Mosely, two of the best welterweights of the past few years. Cotto took plenty from Margarito, of that I am certain. They fought a war. Margarito won but was virtually carried back to his locker by two of his men with his arms draped over their shoulders. And then he was beaten badly by Mosely.
I don’t expect to ever see the same Margarito…but I will certainly be watching.
Evander is already slurring
Funny kind of christianity that Evander follows . Conspicuous consumption and lots of women lmao Sounds like my kind of religion . Holyfields career is not going to end in a pretty way . Evander must be addicted to the endorphins hard training releases. Whatever I say hes in pretty freaking incredible shape for a 48 year old .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
As far as conditioning goes, he’s still among the world’s top heavyweights, which tells me that he genuinely still gives a crap and really believes the stuff he says about unifying the titles.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Aug 12, 2010 3:53 AM EDT up reply actions
MARCIANO'S NOSE
It was probably Charles elbow that split Marciano’s nose not loaded gloves though Ezzard could punch.
I've read both ways--punch and elbow on Rocky's nose, Tex.
But you are right, JC—headbutt started the swelling on Rahman.
How about Basillio’s eye vs. Robinson?
The face of Gomez vs. Sanchez.
George Foreman—who was never before or after done the same—post the Stewart fight?
Duran turning an opponent’s nose sideways.
Remember a fight, and should know the names, when a dude was cut so bad beneath the lip he had two mouths.
And then there was Rocky Juarez vs. Jorge Barrios
When he turned Barrios into the joker.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."

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