UFC 118: This Is James Toney Today
Over his 22-year professional boxing career, a few things have become very certain about James "Lights Out" Toney.
First things first, the man can be brilliant in the ring. Seriously brilliant. There have been times in his career where he has operated the sweet science at virtuoso levels.
Also, Toney loves to talk. This isn't a bad thing, necessarily (or a good thing, necessarily). James Toney, for as ridiculous as he can be when he speaks, somehow seems sincere. When he speaks, you really do believe that he believes that he's been ducked by "the Klitschko sisters." The incredibly easy path of facts, results in the ring, and logic that dictates that that's probably not the case doesn't much matter. James Toney really believes it. James Toney really believes he's the best.
And then there's conditioning and dedication to staying in shape. Look, James Toney is not the first man to go from middleweight to heavyweight. He's also been fairly successful even at the highest weights.
But James Toney is not a heavyweight. He's 5'10" with a 72" reach. There is no shortage of photos available online that will show you the Grand Rapids native looking flat-out slovenly. No, he's not quite Gabe Brown, but calling Toney "in shape" for his run at heavyweight would be a stretch. That Toney has had moderate success as a heavyweight is a reflection of his pure talent.
It's been a while since Toney has had any notable success in boxing, though. MMA fans who are unfamiliar with the reality of the boxing landscape may not realize just how faded Toney is in boxing. Believe it or not, James Toney is not a particularly relevant heavyweight, even in a bad division.
The Heavyweight Years: Part 1
Forget about what Toney did at 160, 168 and cruiserweight. None of that matters anymore. What James Toney did 10 or 15 years ago is not something he can do now. So put out of your mind his rise up against Michael Nunn, his battles with Mike McCallum, his jaw-dropping robbery of Dave Tiberi, the "gamecock punch" fight with Roy Jones Jr., and the incredible war in 2003 against Vassiliy Jirov. Focus on what he's done since moving up to heavyweight, and especially the recent years, because that's the guy coming into the Octagon on Saturday night. The James Toney that fought Nunn, McCallum, Tiberi, Jones, Jirov, Iran Barkley, Reggie Johnson, Merqui Sosa, Montell Griffin, etc., is not the man that fights in 2010.
Let me make something exceedingly clear: James Toney is not the heavyweight champion of the world. James Toney has never been the heavyweight champion of the world. James Toney has never even held one of the four major sanctioning body trinkets (WBC, IBF, WBA, WBO). James Toney has held the very lightly-regarded IBA title and the WBC Continental Americas title, which is one of those countless belts in boxing that allows a sanctioning body to dip into fighters' pockets even though it's not for their top title.
Toney's proper heavyweight career started off in fine fashion when he beat up and stopped Evander Holyfield on October 4, 2003, a little less than six months after he captured the IBF cruiserweight belt in the remarkable fight against Jirov. Toney put the iron-chinned and iron-willed Holyfield down in the ninth round, and Holyfield's corner threw in the towel at 1:42. It was a successful arrival to the heavyweight stage for one of boxing's most enigmatic figures.
11 months later, he dominated unbeaten Rydell Booker in a WBC eliminator. The unproven Booker was simply no match for Toney. It was Booker's final fight, as he had been arrested five months before and charged with possession of cocaine and intent to deliver more than 1,000 grams. He was convicted shortly after and sentenced to 12 to 30 years in prison.
Then the bloom came off the rose. Toney did beat WBA titlist John Ruiz by decision in April 2005. In May, it was reported that Toney had failed his post-fight drug test, and the win was taken off of his record. Toney tested positive for stanozolol, one of the more popular performance-enhancing anabolic steroids. Toney claimed the steroids were prescribed to him to treat an arm injury that he got in the Booker fight, and was also sued by Ruiz.
He returned to the ring on October 1, beating Dominick Guinn, who was once thought to be a "next American star" in the division. Guinn had by then already seen his bubble burst with losses to Monte Barrett and Sergei Liakhovich, plus a 10-round draw against Friday Ahunanya. Toney won a dominant 12-round decision, and was then matched with Hasim Rahman, who held the WBC title. Rahman and Toney went to a majority draw, with two judges seeing it 114-114, and the third scoring it 117-111 for Rahman. Toney's performance was roundly criticized, as was his conditioning. He weighed a career-high 237 pounds for that fight, and looked just plain fat.
Toney had two more fights left in his career as a relevant heavyweight, though. He lost a disputed split decision to Samuel Peter in September 2006. In January 2007, they rematched, this time with Peter dominating on his way to a very wide unanimous decision that no one debated. It was the best performance of Peter's career to date; it was probably one of Toney's absolute worst.
And that's the sum total of James Toney as a serious heavyweight contender. He whooped Holyfield, who 13 months later (after his next fight) would have his license revoked by the NYSAC because he was deemed a risk. By the time Holyfield had gotten to Toney, his career was in a spiral, which had started four years before when he received a generous draw against Lennox Lewis. Starting with the Lewis draw, Holyfield was 2-3-2 in his last seven fights.
The Heavyweight Years: Part 2
Ater the two fights with Peter, Toney became a pure also-ran. He beat journeyman Danny Batchelder by split decision in May 2007, but failed another drug test, popping positive for stanozolol and boldenone. He was fined $2500 and suspended for a year, but appealed the suspension by claiming that someone had tampered with his water bottle. The decision was not reversed -- hell, Batchelder failed his drug test, too, for stanozolol and oxandrolone, plus a "high rate of testosterone," consistent with use of HGH.
A rematch with Rahman in July 2008 aired on Fox Sports Net, quite a step down from the glitz and glamour of an HBO fight. The two worn-out heavyweights went three rounds, with Toney appearing to win a TKO-3 when Rahman couldn't continue due to a cut over his left eye. The California State Athletic Commission overruled the result, declaring it a no-contest because the cut had come from an accidental headbutt.
In December, Toney returned to the airwaves on Versus against Fres Oquendo, another never-quite-was of the heavyweight ranks. Toney won a split decision thanks to an eighth round deduction against Oquendo (the fight otherwise would have been a draw). I scored that fight widely for Oquendo, and truly feel he was robbed of a win that night. Toney was highly ineffective. Toney's next fight came in September 2009, a two-round win over an unknown named Matthew Greer. Greer buzzed Toney, with the silver lining of the easy but troubled win being that Toney, at 217 1/2 pounds, looked in much better shape than he had in the last six years.
So what does all of this mean for Saturday night? Maybe nothing, to be honest. James Toney will not be boxing in Boston against Randy Couture -- or, rather, Randy Couture will not be boxing against James Toney.
I am an MMA fan. I became a major fan in 2002/03 when a friend of mine turned me on to the sport with the Pride and UFC pay-per-views. I had seen tapes of early UFCs in my youth, but while I enjoyed Don Frye quite a bit, I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a UFC diehard from the beginning. I understood little about the sport, in reality, but I didn't mind watching fighting. As I got older and was re-introduced, I began to understand a little more, and not hurting matters was how much the sport had evolved since the days of Tank Abbott and Dan Severn. This time around, it was less a spectacle that THEY DIDN'T WANT ME TO SEE, and more a real sport.
But I am no MMA expert. I don't think one really needs to be for this fight, either. UFC's Dana White has called this a "freakshow" fight, something he said he'd never put on. But it's a little more than that. Past MMA freakshows have included the likes of Jose Canseco and unathletic pro wrester Giant Silva.
Toney, though not highly cross-trained in multiple disciplines and well past his peak, is a legitimate fighter. At the same time, this is not really boxing versus MMA. That's a great way for White and the UFC marketing department to sell this thing, but James Toney is no more representing the whole of boxing than Brock Lesnar represents college wrestling. In the Octagon, under their rules, James Toney is an MMA fighter with a limited skill set.
The Predictable Breakdown: It Ain't Rocket Surgery
Prevailing Thought #1: Couture tries to stand with Toney, it'll be "Lights Out" for the 47-year-old UFC legend. And that's hard to argue against. Toney may not be a devastating puncher, but with four-ounce gloves and decades of training in the art of how to land a meaningful punch, he's more than dangerous enough to put Couture to sleep.
Prevailing Thought #2: James Toney won't be able to do a damn thing with Couture if he can't catch him with a punch before Couture is able to do anything. Also had to argue against. Everyone and their one-eyed, deaf-mute grandma could tell you that if Randy Couture gets the clinch on Toney or is able to take him down with a shoot, Toney's in major trouble. Couture isn't known for his incredible shoot takedowns, really, but how good does he have to be at it to take down a man who barely knows what he's doing past the boxing elements he brings to the table? Couture is a clinch specialist, and he's beaten and even overwhelmed much more well-rounded fighters than James Toney over his career.
It's such a wild card fight. Neither of these guys are the fighter I'll remember them for being. Toney is long past it, as is Couture. What this fight is is a fairly genius financial move by James Toney, who was not exactly having his door knocked down to get work in boxing anymore. Toney will tell you that's because he's so dangerous that everyone is afraid of him. Reality will tell you it's because Toney is past 40, doesn't put on good fights anymore, doesn't sell tickets, and hasn't had the interest of any of the networks in boxing for years.
Yes, Randy Couture could have an exceptionally easy time and could flat-out embarrass James Toney on Saturday. And yes, James Toney could lay out Randy Couture with one good, clean right hand.
What I see as the difference in trying to forecast this fight is that both have one really stupid thing they can do. Toney could try to beat Couture at something other than the stand-up game. Couture could try to stand with Toney.
But Couture has more to go to than Toney does. If James doesn't catch Randy, or goad Randy into a boxing match with four-ounce gloves, what is he going to do? He can't wrestle him. He's not going to submit him with one of his much-rumored chokeouts. Couture can knock off one aspect of his game and go to anything else he knows, because anything else he knows, he knows a hell of a lot more than Toney does.
James Toney can only win this fight with the one thing he truly knows, and that's his boxing background. Randy Couture can win this fight in any number of ways, and it won't be hard for him to do it. If Couture doesn't stand with Toney, it's his fight to lose.
And for his part, even if he's embarrassed, James Toney might parlay the risk taken at UFC 118 into another big payday in boxing. Hey, if Shannon Briggs can get another crack at a heavyweight title, what's stopping the again-famous James Toney?
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Literally the ONLY way I see Toney winning
Is if Toney’s able to catch Couture with a short punch while he’s shooting in. That’s it. Frankly, I don’t think Toney has the power to knock out Couture unless his punch is significantly aided by Couture moving into the punch. And that punch better REALLY hurt Couture. Because if all it does is buzz him, then you just end up with Toney chasing after him on the ground, and Couture has a massive advantage there as well.
I heard Toney was only +400 for the fight. That’s basically free money, IMO. Maybe I’m just being dumb or naive because I don’t understand as much about MMA as I do about boxing, but I seriously think Toney’s chances of winning are pretty close to zero.
And yes, I realize Couture has been knocked out before, and not always by huge punchers. But Toney’s downright feather fisted at heavyweight. Before his last fight against a bum who hurt him, he hadn’t knocked anyone out since 2002. And he hasn’t knocked anyone OUT since he was at 168. Sure, 4 oz gloves mean he’ll punch a little harder and have less padding up front, but that will be negated by the fact that he can’t set his feet. We’ve all seen what a James Toney arm punch looks like, and it ain’t pretty.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
+400 makes Toney a significant underdog.
It means that while James is a longshot he still has some sort of chance to win. However, if James doesn’t show some sort of solid grappling training with in the week (other then practice defending what Couture isn’t going to do), the numbers could go up to at least +700. Possibly making him a distant longshot.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
The problem is that he may have the smallest window of opportunity for victory...
of anyone we’ve seen compete in the UFC since the numbered events were in the 10’s or 20’s
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 24, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
+400 not really significant underdog
Kotelnik was +1000 vs. Alexander and Kotelnik might have won that fight if it is located in not St. Louis.
by Waldo Rastel on Aug 25, 2010 4:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I also am not sold on Toney's ability to KO people with reckless abandon just because of his pedigree
and wearing 4oz gloves. Is he more dangerous with straight punches than the vast majority of MMA fighters? Absolutely, but I think it has more to do with fluid footwork, handspeed and accuracy than raw power.
This isn’t a guy who floors people with one punch. He’s always depended on his outstanding technical prowess inside the ring to win fights, rather than dominant physical tools.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Toney-Rahman wasn’t even good enough to be on Versus. I think it was on FSN. What a disgrace that fight was.
oh, you're right
That was a “Best Damn” presentation. I now remember Chris Rose’s fumbling before the fight.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Aug 24, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m amused at how the undeniable buzz about this match has turned bloggers and pundits from outright scorn and condemnation to serious and in-depth coverage. Also, MMA fans are taking this really seriously, it seems. I read a few threads at Bloody Elbow and was impressed at the level of detail and nuance paid to this.
I don’t take the whole thing very seriously. As Scott said, everyone knows Toney is shot. And isn’t Couture some sort of an action hero now? I don’t know. I’m not going to buy this. I would like to watch it, but I’m not sure I want to bother with the hassle for what will probably last about 30 seconds.
And I’m a huge Toney fan, as some of you already know. Toney / Jirov was one of my favorite fights of all time. But I just can’t get worked up over this, outside of admiring how James has played everyone.
Boxing writer: "Iran, what are you going to do when you retire?"
Iran Barkley: "Rob your house"
My read is that MMA fans are most invested for two reasons. First, they are absorbing much more of the marketing and promotion than the typical boxing fan. Second, they’ve got more on the line. Toney was a considerable talent in his prime, but the boxing community views him as something of a castaway. By contrast, Couture is generally revered. Fans are very emotionally invested in his success.
I guess a third reason might be that MMA fans are obsessively preoccupied with the sport’s perception among larger mainstream audiences. Almost no one disputes Toney’s chances are low (how could you not?), but because MMA fans perceive Couture having so much to lose (and therefore MMA having so much to lose) they’re a tad on edge about Couture getting clocked before he can deliver what should be the inevitable.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Would "Mainstream audience" also include sports media in general?
I recollect this fight being just signed after the Hershel Walker fight. Is this fight a sorta “fuck you” from Dana for sports media nuthugging Walker?
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
Toney had literally been following Dana around for weeks/months (depending on what you belive)
harassing him in public about signing to fight in the UFC. Dana brushed him off for awhile, but eventually caved. I think it really is just something that Dana wants to see, and I doubt there’s a lot of malice involved. I mean, anyone who’s watched TUF knows that Dana will give fights to guys who prove to his satisfaction that they are serious and want to fight, even if it doesn’t seem to make much sense on paper.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
This is a fantastic article, SC. Rec’d for good measure.
You guys are right, MMA fans are (strangely?) giving Toney a MUCH bigger chance then it seems boxing fans are.
I’m trying to think of the role-reversal equivalent. Maybe Ken Shamrock or Mark Coleman boxing, say, Shannon Briggs? David Tua? Samuel Peter? A guy who’s past his prime but it still rather serviceable or a gatekeeper?
by BVandDietPepsi on Aug 25, 2010 12:34 AM EDT reply actions
I don’t think there is a proper role-reversal equivalent. Everything Toney knows how to do is legal in MMA, same doesn’t go for a MMA guy coming over. So I find it hard to properly weigh that out. Someone might be able to, but I can’t figure it. But as far as chances go, I think it’d be similar to, say, KJ Noons fighting Alfredo Angulo or something.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Aug 25, 2010 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Marcus Davis-Roy Jones maybe.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Aug 25, 2010 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Im getting the show and watching. Not cause of this fight, but rather I’ve recently been paying more attention to MMA. As you said SC, Toney has one chance of winning and thats if Couture is stupid/brave enough to stand up and trade with him. If Couture wants to prove to everyone he can trade with a boxer then Toney might catch him, but from what I’ve seen/read he seems like a smart guy not out to prove anything but to win. Toney has been learning mostly defence to stop Couture taking him down or effecting him in the clinch, so that realy does give Toney ONE way to win. He wont ground and pound cause Couture is better on his back than Toney is in guard, and Id even say Couture’s fitness is higher than Toneys so I give Toney 1 1/2 rounds to KO Couture other than that he will get worn out.
With that rambel out the way there still is the “what if” factor. So I’ll have the tv on watching it and be looking forward to the fight.
"I'm scared every time I go into the ring, but it's how you handle it. What you have to do is plant your feet, bite down on your mouthpiece and say, 'Let's go.'" Mike Tyson
I think Spike will have some prelim fights on at 9PM, before the PPV
Be sure to catch those as well.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
Anybody remembers 48 year old Ray Mercer knocking out Tim Silva?
Dont count Toney out.
Even though I know for sure Couture is in 10x better shape than Toney and his energy will last him to the final second if it has to.
But just remember the 48 year old Grandpa knocking out Big Bad Tim Silva.
There's no relevance to that match what so ever.
"Respond intelligently even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu
There might not be a direct relevance but there is some
In Mercer- Sylvia’s match you had an old washed up boxer who took on a guy who was established as a good fighter in his sport which is the UFC and shocked everyone by knocking him out the way he did.
You cannot tell me that you were expecting to see that, you just cant.
And now you have again an old washed up boxer in James Toney whos going into his opponent , Randy Couture’s sport to fight him.
Maybe Toney can pull a Ray Mercer. If he can it will probaly have to be in the 1st round, because I dont think Toney has the stamina to last to the end.
Sylvia was grossly out of shape and Mercer is a better puncher than Toney.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Aug 25, 2010 3:33 AM EDT up reply actions
It also was scheduled to be a boxing match until just before the event when the only way they could get the go-ahead from the state was to change it to an MMA bout. Plus there’s the fact that Sylvia has always been a guy who is a stand-up fighter who uses rather rudimentary punching technique which, combined with his height, was enough to bother a lot of heavyweights in a really down period for heavyweight MMA in the UFC.
Randy on the other hand is a former three-time Olympic alternate wrestler who is going to have no interest in standing and trading with James.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 25, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Great piece Scott
Couture’s a class act, the Octagon’s his home and I hope he dominates Toney the way he’s expected to. Like you say, he’s not known for shooting but that should change against Toney. Randy likes to punch his way in to the clinch but we should see him use his hands as a distraction to set up the shoot.
As for Toney bringing anything to the cage other than his fists?…..How about a Muay Thai knee to the onrushing Couture jaw? – Brent / Luke – would this be considered an effective takedown counter against somebody shooting in? Does James have a knee lift in him?
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
It’s a classic counter to a wrestling “shot.” KJ Noons actually opened the cut that led to his TKO stoppage win over Nick Diaz in EliteXC by landing a knee to the face of Diaz as he ducked down to grab his legs. Of course, throwing a proper knee with that kind of timing takes a lot of practice and is also REALLY hard to do from a boxing stance. James will have to be much more squared up with his hips than he is used to . Mechanically it’ll probably be very different from what James’ body is willing or able to do at his age with the amount of time spent drilling boxing behavior into his brain.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 25, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I watched the UFC promotional show last night on Comcast
If I didn’t know anything about boxing, the show would have led me to believe that Toney was leaving boxing at the top of the heavyweight division in order to take this stupid boxing v. mma challenge. I couldn’t help but laugh, but then I got annoyed thinking about how some of the MMA fighters at my gym will use the inevitable Couture win to declare MMA as superior to boxing.
By the way, I say Couture win because there was one quote in the promotional piece that I thought was definitive. Couture said that there was no way he planned to stand toe-to-toe with James Toney in a Western-style boxing stance. I imagine he’ll leg kick Toney once or twice and then charge him. It won’t last more than a round or two.
BAN MY WIFE, NOT ME
I completely and absolutely despise UFC, MMA whatever it’s called. Sorry, but a “sport” that even my wife says “Wow that’s really gay” when she saw two UFC guys on TV writhing around on the canvas, grinding their you know what’s together, is basically something that should not see the light of day.
Regarding this “fight”: a 47 yr old vs a fat former boxer? And it’s not a freakshow?
Please…..
As a lifelong boxing fan...
I am so tired of these disrespectful comments from other boxing fans. I hate when MMA fans say that boxing is boring or wimpy, and I hate when boxing fans call MMA “gay” or “thrashing around on the ground”. They are simply different styles. I prefer to watch two guys fight in the same style (especially boxing) because the fight is usually cleaner, but MMA deserves just as much respect. There is also lots boxing can learn from UFC: it’s well-organized, the pay-per-views are reasonably priced, there are fewer weight classes, champions are much easier to recognize, and the top guys are more interested in fighting each other than they are in building a deceiving undefeated record.
but I should add...
that I completely agree: this fight is nothing but a freakshow and should not be happening.
It’s a freakshow but I don’t know that I agree that it shouldn’t be happening. No one forced either man into it, it’s being conducted in a safe arena, both competitors are in their last few years of being able to compete, there is public interest. The very premise of mixed martial arts is to see how a man will do against another man with the combat techniques he has acquired over his life. It’s a freakshow to be sure, but it’s also a strangely legitimate freakshow.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Aug 25, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree. I mean, it’s easy to call MMA sloppy and “gay” from the comfort of your own couch, but I doubt anybody would with BJ Penn on their back and Rear Naked Choke sinked in. And yeah, I used the RNC because it sounds dirty.
I’m also a boxing fan who became a diehard MMA fan. I love both sports, but I’ve just gravitated to MMA more because of it’s accessibility and organization over the past few years.
"I talked about retirement a little bit, but told them I'd be the same ol' grumpy, pissed off guy." --Bobby Cox
by Anthony Pace on Aug 25, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
BAN MY WIFE, NOT ME
You stay because of this.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Aug 25, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions

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