The Eyes Don’t Lie
by pakinpower on Aug 30, 2010 12:38 AM EDT
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PrintMuch has been written about the reasons why Miguel Cotto succumbed to Antonio Margarito some two years ago. The cast of suspicion lingers as to whether or not the Puerto Rican warrior capitulated from the relentless pressure of the taller Mexican or something more sinister. Either way, the loss is not one we can easily forget.
Myself, I saw something very early in the fight that foretold the end. It was something better seen in Cotto’s corner between rounds more so than in the ring. I refer here to the ‘look’ on Miguel’s face. The one that said: “WTF…..Who the hell is this guy”. Manny Steward noticed it. I’ll never forget it. It didn’t come late. It came early…. well before sustaining the accumulation of punishment that eventually marked the end.
It was a look of doubt. A look that said to the corner: “I hear you…but I have other things on my mind” Namely the guy across the ring. The one that keeps coming through fire….at me!
After three hellacious fights, we saw a similar look on the face of Erik Morales. Sitting on his behind, after getting whacked for the last time by a dynamo named Manny Pacquiao, El Terrible just winked at his corner and said: No Mas. It was a dignified end to an illustrious reign.
Ivan Calderon wore that look last night. Bowed and beaten, he chose life over certain hell. No one can blame him.
It has happened to many of the greats. There is a moment when they know better than their corner, their fans, whomever. Maybe it’s not the end….but it’s the end of their night.
Who can remember that ‘look’ on the face of an otherwise great and dignified warrior. I’m sure every one of us can.
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Barry McGuigan
vs Steve Cruz. — Heading back to his corner Barry wore a bewildered look early in the fight " How the hell am I supposed to stop this guy?" It got worse. After getting dropped in the 10th, a forced grin to his corner revealed a fighter in turmoil. And I’ll never forget this warrior’s desperate response to his cornerman’s instructions before heading back out for the 15th round – “Say a prayer for me.”
Interesting fanpost Mr Power.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
yep, that's the one I thought of right away
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Aug 30, 2010 5:53 AM EDT up reply actions
That, GS....is a great story!
It sent shivers down my spine.
For every one of us who love this game and these warriors who dare to be great, sympathy doesn’t even begin to explain the feelings we have for them when their moment comes. Pain is more like it,
– "Say a prayer for me."
I mean, what more can be said.
No offense, but I generally can’t stand this kind of analysis in boxing or in any other sport. Amateur psychoanalysis based purely on facial expressions captured via videocamera is very rarely a proper method for drawing conclusions about anything.
I think that is pretty offensive.Is no one allowed an opinion just because you don’t like it?
Better not to comment at all than to moan about how someone’s opinion means nothing to you.
Good stuuf pakinpower.
by Matt Mosley on Aug 30, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I also disagree with taco pal on this point.
But his opinion on the validity of the argument is just as worthwhile as any other.
I didn’t read his post as saying ‘get this shit out of my face’, more, ‘I don’t agree that you can tell anything from the indicators you’re talking about’.
Anyhow….
I do happen to think that I can read something into a fighters’ eyes. I saw it in Lacy pre-Calzaghe, I saw it in Oscar pre-Pacquiao, and other recent examples. By then it’s usually too late, and I’ve usually already placed my bet…. lol
Lmao
By then it’s usually too late, and I’ve usually already placed my bet
You don’t learn then!
by Sweet science on Aug 30, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree Absolutely with Pakinpower & Chaos 100
Their faces tell all, as often as not. Though some are pretty good poker players about its, the real moments tell.
BTW, BoxAnne
Thanks for your Segura/Calderon post. That was my inspiration for this post.
If you watch the fight again you can see Segura’s punches…although less precise and often winged….were doing plenty of damage up ad down Calderon’s body. Regardless of what the judges or audience may have thought….Ivan surely knew it.
Thank you!
Just as you posted, I was thinking of Calderon’s face as early as the 4rth, you could see the confidence-level flag. He didn’t like having to go ropes, he knew he was already too tired. And Segura was certainly landing throughout, altho at first Calderon was ahead scoring.
Nor do Iimagine Ivan intended to practice the steps to that dance he was doing...
I refer to the one going backward.
Again, I was reminded of Cotto….who in every difficult situation of late is retreating on his toes while still doing his best to stave off further punishment.
LMAO
When exactly do you make up your mind and place your bet.
Days before?
Day of?
I find after the fight is over top be the best time!
I hear you taco....but i disagree.
In fact, I think it works in even more ways than I articulated. I may have focused here on facial expressions,…but iif you do a study neurological or otherwise on body language, you can learn a hell of a lot more about what is really going on than what the subject is telling you. Not just in boxing…but across the board.
There are times when you can see confidence and the lack thereof. Look back on Manny entering the ring against Hatton for example. Their eyes didn’t lie.
good hearing from you always.
I see where you’re coming from. I just think this kind of thing is very subjective and highly, highly susceptible to confirmation bias. That is to say, when we think we see something and then it doesn’t happen, we forget about it. When we think we see something and it does happen, then we think to ourselves “I saw it coming all along.” In both cases, it’s likely that it’s just a coincidence.
Manny Steward is always going on about how he sees something in the fighter’s demeanor. He’s a good analyst and I’m not saying he just pulls that stuff out of his butt entirely. But he’s also wrong quite often. He claimed that he saw Sergio Martinez intimidated (or words to that effect) in the early rounds of the Williams fight, which was completely off the mark.
I know Manny gets a lot of shit here for butchering language and such....
But more often than not he does look and see some things that I happen to agree with.
They are ‘tells’……not gospel. Many times they’re nothing more that…..but given his years in the corner of so many fighters, I would be loathe to dismiss them entirely.
Facial Expression and Body Language
don’t always work; the fighter might rally dramatically, changing his own perception, or have a good poker face, but mostly, for me it really works. A month or so I was hunting something on YouTube, got the wrong one, and a young fighter went boxing, swirling by, & I caught his face—what a look of nerveless focus and relaxed but absolute concentration. In that second I knew he’d win the fight. But I didn’t want to watch the whole thing, and checked—sure enough. Promptly forgot the kid’s name, doesn’t matter. But I remember that clear second of knowing.
That was and is the exact answer to Taco's comment
Or any comment on boxing for that matter.
Thx, BA
This one wasn’t necessarily a look on his face but did anyone else notice in the Pavlik v Martinez fight Kelly said something to Jack Loew in the corner,i think it was after the 10th round.It is hard to tell what pavlik says but honestly it sounds like he says “i’m gonna quit” to which Loew says something like “no,you can’t do that!”.
The fight report in Boxing News mentioned this and when i went over the dvd it seems that Kelly my well have wanted out.
If you can’t remember you should check it out.The end of the 9th or 10th round,i think.
It’s hard to tell what Kelly says but Loew response kind of gives it away.
I think you’re talking about after then 9th round as Kelly gets back to his corner he says ‘I can’t see’ (because of the cut) and Jack Lowe says ’don’t say that’, cause if the comission official or doctor hears that they would stop it.
I didn’t sound like “i can’t see” to me but i can’t be really sure what he said to be honest.
by Matt Mosley on Aug 30, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Of it’s true what youn say then fair enough.I’m not trying to besmirch Kelly’s name,i was just trying to add to the comments.
The Boxing News guy said it pretty much the way i said it.He wasn’t sure and was more questioning it than actually accusing.
Thanks for your input.
by Matt Mosley on Aug 30, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Whatever it was, we know Kelly wasn't happy.
And his corner was furious.
It has happened to the GOAT so it’s no insult to the fighter. Bundini was beside himself at the end of the 10th round in Manila. And you can only imagine what Ali was thinking.
Eubank v Collins 1
Eubanks says to Ronny Shields some thing like “He’s been coming at me all night…” with a look of bewilderment and disbelief. A look I’d not seen a lot, in Eubank.
Precisely what I was referring to....
Ordinary guys know it right away.
It’s unforgettable when it’s on the faces of fighters like Eubank.
In the opposite sense
When Mayweather got rocked by Shane, he got the “Awww hellls no” look in his face and completely dominated the pants off of Mosley the rest of the fight.
That's a good point.
As critical as I am of FM, he always has that look on his face that says: “No worries, I got his one.”
He sorta sits down, leans forward, listens to Roger’s gibberish, let’s Ellerbe shine his balls….and then goes back out and finishes his business.
I’m not sure that even Leonard Ellerbe knows what Leonard Ellerbe is supposed to be doing in Floyd’s corner.
by Waldo Rastel on Aug 31, 2010 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions
At least Bundini had a few good lines....
Ellerbe can’t even get his man’s story straight….at his own press conference.
E.... if it's Bundini
CH….if it’s Ellerbe.
But you know, I still think Merchant (ans Lamply) did Ellebe a terrible diservice when he said
“He was a self made man. Self made by someone else.” That had some nasty undertones which said more about Merchant and lampley than it did Ellerbe. Guys like Merchant survive by the insult; they are dispicable. Lampley is a shill—a whore if you will. IMO. At least Elerbee doesn’t try to be someone he isn’t. He is a confidant. Nothing more and nothing less, and I suspect he has been made wealty in the process.
Pray for Nick Charles
Agreed.....on every point
There is no reason to insult a man simply because he has gained the confidence of a fighter…..any more than there is to demean a woman who has married well or visa versa.
merchant is not all gone as some would say but he loves the sound of his voice and he has very little good to say about anyone at all.
Lampley is an employee on HBO…so yes, he’s a shill.
Great, great fanpost subject here. I am jealous. Now then, LaStarza had it in the second
Marciano fight. “It said oh my Gog, I’m in for it this time.”
Pray for Nick Charles
Great Fanpost Pakin
Many of Mike Tysons opponents had a particular look on their faces before the fight . Especially Bruce Seldon , Mike Spinks and Andrew Golota.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Golota had a look all his own
Eyes wide open like he had seen the devil himself.
lmao Ted
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Hearns used to scare his opponents . I remember Fred Hutchings , Duran , Schuler all looking pretty worried before the first bell rang .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Hate to admit it, but,
Some of Hamed’s victims looked totally helpless against that arrogant little gobshite.
I'm feelin' that....
Hating to admit it is something we all hate to admit.
See my reply to Waldo above.
It’s sorta like admitting you’re wrong to the wife. Rare ……and very grudgingly.
Yeah.
But not nearly as great as her admitting Anything ever to me! That’s more like…….never.
Best example of this was when Darren Van Horn fought Iran Barkley in NYC.. Right there and then, while Barkley was walking back and forth
like a caged animal waiting for his raw and juicy meat, Van Horn looked across the ring and his face said, “holy shit, what’s a Kentucky Schholboy doing in this madhouse..” He prompltly got mugged and waxed.
Pray for Nick Charles
This is going to lead to another Post
“When you knew he knew is was over before it started!”
I must be a sick bastard
That Van Horne post made me laugh Ted . Imagine poor Van Horne looking at Barkleys head ( one even his mum would struggle to love) in a club type venue full of Iran’s homies .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Vicious beatdown
Barkley was sooo much bigger. Van Horn was only an average sized light middle. The Blade looked massive next to him. Barkley post fight -" I wouldn’t let this guy beat me if I was drunk!!"
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Naz could really hurt you Phil
Thats the key , fighters arent afraid of being outboxed or made to look bad as much as they are afraid of fighting the knockout artists and the killers . I remeber reading an interview with Ray Arcel when I was kid . He said they were calling him the " Pallbearer" in the 30s as he was in many of Joe Louis" victims corner. He also mentioned the fact that at least 4 of the blokes basically fell apart mentally in the last couple of days before the fight . Punchers have that effect . Louis was a great intimidator .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
In some ways volume punchers, taller ones especially, have a way of breaking guys down mentally.
I saw a lot of vintage Margarito in Segura Saturday night.
It’s sort of like Butch Cassidy turning to Sundance and saying about the Pinkerton’s: " Who the hell are these guys?"
Corrales
When he won his first title against Roberto Garcia . Garcia punched lumps off Corrales but after the 4th round he had that look you are referring to mate" WTF do I have to do to hurt this bloke" and" shit , he’s heavy handed" . Diego eventually caught up with and wore down Garcia . Garcia was never the same again .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Diego wore one of the best masks in the business
True gang banger that one.
He was there to do what the contract said: to hurt the man in front of him.
Speaking of looks, check the one on the then undefeated Popo Freitas’ face after Diego knocked him down the second time. He might as well not have come back out for the third and last.
popo means sucking on mother's breasts or mayby drinking mother;s milk.
Seemed a suitable moniker for him at that fight.
Pray for Nick Charles
Talk about going from a hero to a goat in one night.
I hope he owned a second home somewhere…. because there couldn’t have been anyone waiting for him to come home to Bahia.
Dead right JC
Remember Big Frank when walking to the ring in his second fight against Tyson? He crossed himself over and over. He KNEW what was coming. Poor bloke!
My mate Goatsnake once told me
The worst case of real fear and dread was the look in JC40’s eyes when it was his turn to get the beers in.
Just thought it was a worthy mention. ;-)
< got my reebocks on for just such on occasion Phil
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
LMFAO!!
The look on JC’s face as he personally couriers that slab of Boags (2000 kms down Pacific Hwy) for losing our Froch-AA bet -.Bloody priceless Phil ! ;)
Gotta be chilled JC (no bloody XXXX either lol!!) – Cheers mate.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Hahahahaha you bastards
If Froch wins Goaty has to deliver my slab in a gorilla suit on rollerskates and if by some huge accident King Arthur gets thecash I’ll deliver that beer wearing Marcel Marceau clobber and riding a unicycle.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
HAHAHA!!
As long as they’re Acme jet skates you’re on mate LOL – No le Frog beer either JC. And you’ve gotta ride that bloody frogcycle juggling an esky full of coldies. Aint gonna be easy – good job you’re a bloody legend.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Yep Phil
Classic example mate LOL Big Franks eyes were wider than the bloody Amazon before that fight . The young Foreaman had Norton and Joe King Roman pretty shit scared pre the fight .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Harry Joe Yorgey
It was a big step up. The big stage after going undefeated. Title fight, HBO, big arena, lights, people. The situation itself would scare most people, let alone a boxer who has fought mostly in the Philly area. Then fear went from mental to physical when Alfredo “I’m a bad bad bad bad man (and a huge idiot recently)” Angulo showed up and looked focused on annihilating anything that dared to be in the ring. Hell even the ref looked scared, but Harry looked like someone just told him the scariest campfire story in the history of man. Poor kid put forth a bit of an effort, but everyone knew it wasn’t going to end well, and shucks I just felt bad for him.
Look at the stare down here, he can’t even look at Angulo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vz4l5llnuMQ
Yes
I was there, and was conscious that his little boys (10-12ish) (I assume they were his) were at ringside, and really wished it had been a better ending even tho they’d still have seen him lose. BTW, that’s something I never know what to think about—if Daddy wins, and you get carried all around the ring on his shoulders while the seconds freak for joy and the crowd cheers—what could be more wonderful than that? You’d hate to deprive a kid of it. But I think it was Vivian Harris’s very little girl—5, 6 or so—who was so traumatized by what happened to him that it delayed his departure in the ambulance because he couldn’t put her down. So I’ve got violent ambivalence about it.
I'm pretty sure that my opinion won't matter
And that each fighter will make his own decisions regarding his family and kids in particular. We all do…and so they too shall do what they deem correct.
Having said that …. and given that few fighters make it through their careers without getting seriously hurt….I would err on the side of not bring them to watch.
Twice I have seen the Cotto children….not ll of then but some…. rushed from the arena in the arms of their mother. In tears. Once against Cottey at the Garden….and more recently on TV against Manny.
It always starts out well….before the bell rings.
very, very true. You would be horrified if you saw what I see re this issue.
few fighters make it through their careers without getting seriously hurt….
Pray for Nick Charles
What's more amazing
Is how good most greats actually are at keeping their poker faces in the face of hell. I was reviewing some of HBO’s legendary nights/fights and was looking at the faces of Alexis Arguello. Until he was actually hurt then defeated, he never showed any real panic or even unique distress; just solid determination and focus.
Afterward, we all know that he knew the Pryor just had his number….but during the contest, he never let Aaron know. And for all that haven’t seen it lately, Pryor was an animal when he got you in trouble. A pure beast.
Alan Minter
vs Marvin Hagler — Minter had just beaten Vito Antuofermo twice for the MW title and was doing his best to match Hagler’s aggression but wore the look of a fighter introduced to extreme violence for the first time.
After Hagler sliced him open in the third all the fire in Minter’s eyes vanished.
"Anytime you go thirty rounds with a guy, try to kill each other, and have the utmost respect for each other, no one understands that, but guys who have been to war understand it." - Micky Ward on Arturo Gatti.
Yep
Definitely mate. Minters expression during the third round was exactly that. Hagler was at his career best that night in my humble . He was in kill or be killed mode , similar to Hearns .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Lmfao Phil
Youre on a roll mate .
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me. " Hunter S Thompson.
Hagler that night was a classic case
of a fighter refusing to be intimidated by an opponent, his supporters and the whole circumstances. He was pure class that night – Minter paid big style for mouthing off.
I kind of wish Hagler had refused to be intimidated by the crowd at the end.
A kind of one-man stand-off, amongst beer bottles and other projectiles, would have been an amazing moment in the making.
That said, he might not have got out of there in one piece, but neither would the first person to have accosted him… who would have wanted to be first? Not me……
More recently
The last few moments of Jermain Taylor v Carl Froch. The slomo replay of the stoppage clearly shows JT in agony as punches land. His eyes were closed but the expression said it all. Uncomfortable to watch IMO.
Jermaine had a lot of tools
A poker face wasn’t one of them.
Agreed Phil
I was very pleased when Taylor pulled out after the Abraham fight
Bet you didn't feel quite the same
when Barrera did a number on the Little Prince ! Me neither for that matter.
True,
but that’s cos he’s an arrogant little shit!! (but you knew I’d I’d say that!!)
Great entertainer though.:-)
But never so much as when he had it handed to him by Barrera
That was entertaining.
Watching as the bag of tricks got used up and all that was left was the assassin across the ring. Perfect case of a fighter knowing the gig is up….that others have caught on. And that it will never be the same.
The ability to intimidate an opponent is certainly a useful tool, but
sometimes I think those who are very good at it can rely on it too much. When the meet an opponent who is not intimidated they suddenly seem at a disadvantage – as if though a level playing field is out of their comfort zone – Tyson is the obvious example when he couldn’t intimidate an opponent he seemed immediately intimidated himself – there was no middle ground !
Balls of steel that guy
too much for his own good maybe. You ever met him mate ?
That's not quite true, if you read his autobiography.
He was intimidated, but refused to allow it to alter his destiny, as he saw it. Admirable in and of itself.
Made me nervous
I can’t even imagine the bravery of Floyd Patterson entering the same ring with him. Although I don’t recall the look on Floyd’s eyes. All I remember is having to look away at the savage beating he took.
BTW,many will say that the wide open look on The young Cassius Clay’s eyes was the look of fear hidden by forced bravado. Probably so….but you coulda fooled Sonny.
Sonny Liston
Was almost phobic about mentally ill people, and he was convinced then-Clay was crazy. Then-Clay was pretty nervous about Liston, too—they were scared of each other.
David Remnick's "King of the World"
lays that out exactly.
It’s a great read. If you haven’t already done so, check it out.
Got It Here
haven’t read it yet. Forget where I learned that, might have been Hauser’s Ali Thanks for the suggestion.
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