It's On: Showtime Nabs Pacquiao-Mosley, Real War With HBO Underway
by Scott Christ on Jan 22, 2011 6:04 PM EST
in Boxing News Analysis
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For years, the American televised boxing landscape has been dominated by HBO Sports, which has brought you pretty much all of the biggest boxing pay-per-views and major fights since the retirement of Mike Tyson.
No more. After rumors circulated in a brief media whirlwind, it has been confirmed that the May 7 fight between Manny Pacquiao and Shane Mosley won't be carried by HBO pay-per-view, and there will be no HBO 24/7 this time. Instead, Showtime has closed a deal with Top Rank for the bout, and a series will air on CBS -- which is available in 115 million homes in the United States, as opposed to HBO's 28 million. Lem Satterfield has more, including quotes from Emanuel Steward and Michael Koncz, at BoxingScene.com.
Folks, the boxing TV war is on in America.
This is not the first blow struck by Showtime. Last year, the company made a deal to bring Lucian Bute back to their airwaves after a brief and relatively flopped sting for Bute on HBO. As Satterfield says, it's customary in recent years to see guys build up minor names on Showtime and then head to HBO for the bigger paydays and more glory. But with Bute and Juan Manuel Lopez notably moving to Showtime last year, things started turning. The March 12 PPV fight between Miguel Cotto and Ricardo Mayorga is also a Showtime event. For years now, Cotto has been one of HBO's flagship fighters.
And now, Showtime has taken the biggest money man in the sport, whose only competition for that title is a guy who isn't fighting and is embroiled in one legal controversy after another. For all intents and purposes, if you don't count Mayweather as an active fighter right now (which I think is fair), Showtime has taken the three biggest draws in American TV boxing: Pacquiao, Cotto and Mosley.
Quotes from folks at HBO may be stoic, but they have to be feeling the sting, and you'd almost expect a certain level of panic setting in. Without Pacquiao, who is the HBO flagship star? And with Top Rank taking its fighters (Pacquiao, Cotto, Lopez, Brandon Rios) over to Showtime, could HBO see themselves forced into another sweetheart deal with Golden Boy Promotions, a company that right now is badly lagging behind Top Rank in the development, cultivation, and securing of major names? The biggest fighter left on the Golden Boy roster is Juan Manuel Marquez, who is going to fight Erik Morales in a bout that has limited appeal beyond the Mexican audience and perhaps a portion of the diehard boxing audience. Last word was that that fight was being worked out as a Golden Boy PPV. That might change now.
This isn't to say that Top Rank won't work with HBO or anything like that, but they're showing that there's more than one game in town now. Top Rank has their Montiel-Donaire bantamweight super clash set for HBO on February 19, which now stands as the biggest fight on the coming HBO calendar, with other notables being Bradley-Alexander on January 29, Martinez-Dzinziruk on March 12, whatever Amir Khan does in April, and maybe the Saul Alvarez fight on March 5.
Right now, Showtime is cooking with gas. With the Super Six, the bantamweight tournament, and the acquisition of Pacquiao and Cotto fights, things are getting a lot more interesting. I'm not saying that Pacquiao-Mosley or Cotto-Mayorga are the most interesting fights, but both are major bouts from a notability standpoint, particularly the Pacquiao fight which now will have more exposure than any boxing matchup has had perhaps since Lewis-Tyson.
What's most interesting to me is the spark here. What sparked all of this? There are a lot of things, but what strikes me as particularly thought-provoking is that this wouldn't feel like a big change, really, without Manny Pacquiao. OK, so Showtime picked up Cotto-Mayorga. That's nice for them, Cotto's a good name to pick up. But Pacquiao? Pacquiao's a global superstar of the highest magnitude in all of sports. And when you break it down, he's just a fighter. Yeah, he's got plenty of great media push from the PR folks, but he's not a guy who seems like he's trying to be a media icon, like Oscar de la Hoya was, or a guy playing a character, like Floyd Mayweather. Their appeal was great, truly great, and both are/were major, major stars. But their appeal topped out at a certain level. Pacquiao's may not have peaked yet, as unbelievable as that sounds.
When you get down to it, Manny Pacquiao, without even really knowing he's doing it, may be causing an enormous shift in American boxing coverage. Nobody else in the sport could do that.
We're going to have a lot more on this in the coming days and weeks, I suspect. CBS is clearly showing a serious interest in combat sports, MMA and now boxing, and it just feels like something very big might be happening here. So stay tuned for more as this situation develops further.
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Lets hope that the Mosley/Pacman series on CBS is a step to returning the sport to its old home: broadcast TV stations.
On second thought, eh, who am I kidding, PPV will never go away….
Until promoters start losing money, PPV is going nowhere. It’s hard to generate the type of money that PPV generates on broadcast TV, BUT, if all goes well, I think you could see some specials start entering the discussion. That would be at least a year away from even being talked about, I think, but it wouldn’t totally shock me to see something like two CBS fight cards per year that might otherwise have been Top Rank PPVs.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 22, 2011 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
that won't happen
we might get these 24/7 esque series but ppv is where the money is at so thats where it will stay
Twitter @MaZZM
http://mazznettt.blogspot.com/
But maybe, if the return in numbers watching were large enough to surpass losses from reduced prices, we could be seeing $15, $20 dollar megafights, i.e., of Pac-May proportions, which would be huge for the likes of me.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
As I've read many places
…no one wants to lower prices for fear of the perception that their product is not worth what they’re charging. That combined with the mentality that you rather make a guaranteed $60 off one buyer than a potential $60 from two, and you pretty much have to resign yourself to paying big money for big fights.
by black dragon on Jan 25, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions
This is really big news. This is just the kind of competition that was needed to move things forward. Showtime is making a big play, and at a moment when almost all of HBO’s favorite house fighters have been knocked down a few pegs. Does anyone remember that ad campaign HBO did with Ortiz, Guerrero, Arreola, etc?
I don’t put to much stock in the CBS connection, but it is a bold move.
"My God, kids today think that the laces are for tying up the gloves."
-- Fritzie Zivic
HBO would have been best to remember it was a television network
Not a boxing promoter.
Frankly, their executives no very little about this game and have made some absolutely awful choices of which prospects to promote and reward. I think it’s accurate to say they have spoiled more than a few…giving them pay far beyond what they have earned ths far in the ring. The resulthas been an unwillingness of cewrtain ighters to not accept reasonable purses for more competitive fights. And why should they…when they can stay at home with HBO and get paid with less risk.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Surely, this can only be a good thing for boxing?
A fierce competition between the top two broadcasters can only force the men in suits to think of more innovative ideas. It could also fuck up the already collapsed purse systems that are in boxing, where fighters like Alfredo Angulo get paid $750,000 for a B.A.D. fight.
Still searching for an alive Dan Tucker.
I’m not sure it’s necessarily a good thing for boxing, as promoters could now pit the two stations against one another in order to secure low-risk fights. The event that started all of this was HBO turning down Cotto-Martirosyan in favor of Martinez-Dzinziruk. While going with the former might have made more business sense in the short-term (and given Arum’s apparent vindictiveness, the long-term as well), the latter is clearly a better fight. Obviously HBO has wasted a lot of time and money on fights no one really wants to see for much of its history, but moves such as this indicated they were more interested in securing quality matchups. While greater competition from Showtime may seem to further incentivize that desire, it could also leave both networks having to completely subject themselves to Arum’s whims just for a chance at a Pacquiao fight.
Pacman or rather Arum have a good idea what they are doing with this switch in regard to making a fight like Pac/Cotto 2 happen. There were certainly signs building up to the mosely fight about it, and i don’t mean about taking the easiest fight because without mayweather most ofthe options are not good anyway, but Pac/Cotto was unlikey on HBO. It’s almost certain now.
Pac/Cotto was unlikey on HBO
Maybe, maybe not. HBO has shown loyalty and even at times favoritism to both fighters, and as much as hardcore fans might not have wanted it, hardcore fans have been backlashing a little at the last three Pac fights and they’ve all sold. Hardcore fans thought Mayweather-Marquez was a joke (and it was) but it sold. Pacquiao-Cotto II could have been marketed to sell, I think, and HBO is king at marketing fights like that to sell with 24/7 and great, manipulative video packages.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 22, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
last two Pac fights
Three was me counting Shane and we don’t know if that sells or not yet.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 22, 2011 7:26 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think I would interpret this necessarily as you did
The fight showtime has picked up, all are kind of bad fights, and not really worth watching. I realize the pac fight will sell well (although I bet the numbers will be disappointing), and I think you can’t rule out the possibility that maybe HBO is genuinely trying to put on good fights. HBO’s fight schedule is actually good right now -
Donaire – Montiel, Martinez – Dzirunik and Alexander – Bradley are all fight I actually want to see.
Showtime has -
Magee- Bute (skip), Mayorga – Cotto (skip), Acosta – Rios (Worth watching), Demarco – Sanchez (sort of meh) and Pac – Mosley (sorry this is also a skip, Mosley is finished)
which I wouldn’t call a great schedule or even a good schedule.
So while I realize this may mean war, I would say HBO is actually doing better than showtime as compared to last year, as HBO is actually putting on good fights (unlike last year) and Showtime is… well… not really putting on good fights.
As for CBS getting involved, I like that, but it doesn’t make this fight interesting, or even worth watching.
As for Paquiao becoming significantly bigger, I doubt it. He doesn’t have a very media friendly personality (it was fun to laugh at him sing on Jimmy Kimmel, but he’s not engaging – for instance my sister would never watch him, hes not a very engaging character), and in terms of fighting i think its hard to imagine him getting bigger without being floyd, which seems unlikely now for obvious reasons. Do you think the public cares if he beats the rotting corpse of Mosley? I think people who already think hes great, will still think so, and those who didn’t care, still won’t care.
by journeyintosound on Jan 22, 2011 7:27 PM EST reply actions
Do you think the public cares if he beats the rotting corpse of Mosley?
Do you think the public actually realizes Mosley is a rotting corpse? They don’t. Mosley is the guy who almost knocked out Floyd last year if you put together the right video package. Mosley is the Hall of Fame-bound veteran looking to take out the No. 1 man in the sport. Mosley is the guy who beat Oscar de la Hoya twice. Mosley isn’t the guy who drew Sergio Mora (who?) in a fight nobody saw. The public is lied to very easily.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 22, 2011 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
yeah...
but as a boxing fan, HBO is pantsing showtime right now. I mean, I guess it comes down to are we more interested in the stars or in good fights? And how do the networks feel about this.
by journeyintosound on Jan 22, 2011 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Agbeko-Mares, Darchinyan-Perez, Froch-Johnson are also all on the SHO docket. In a way I think they’re playing every hand right now, while HBO is sitting some out. This could all get really, really interesting.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 22, 2011 7:36 PM EST up reply actions
Lets be honest Showtime has been teeing off on HBO for a while.. given that they aren’t even in the same ballpark when it comes to spending, it only speaks to the awesomeness of Ken Hershman.
I mean eventually, there has to be some discussions of Ross Greenburg getting fired.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
showtime still owns the super six and bantamweight tournament… and don’t forget showtime has showcasing bradley and alexander… it’s only been recent that they’ve both fought on hbo, that’s why when hbo has “bradley and alexander’s greatest hits” they only have highlights from abregeu, urango, and kotelnik fights. what happened to the witter fight? or the kendall holt fight? wasn’t on hbo, that’s for sure.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
also, bute is acquired by showtime so that he can eventually fight the winner of the super six tournament. that’s not excitement? and most of showtime’s championship fights are not on ppv. so there you go, showtime > hbo.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
This is only a competition if SHO can make or break big fights
How many times have you heard the words ‘This fight is made as long as HBO buys the fight’ ? Replace HBO with SHO and then think how many times that has happened. Until this starts happening on a more regular basis there is absolutely no competition between HBO and SHO, at all. Sure SHO can have good fights, hell even better fights than HBO. But until they have to weight to make big fights happen, they will be the little brother to HBO.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Jan 24, 2011 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
well that’s one factor, even a big factor, that might happen down the road, but if show time have a better business model for boxing (free previews on CBS, network television), and in the past year showtime has shown a bigger commitment to showing good boxing fights than hbo, and with those little steps occuring, i could see showtime undermining hbo. esp. with the crap hbo has been showing, nvm the pac mosley , cotto mayorga fights (everyone has to start somewhere when they acquire their stars), hbo has been one crap berto, crap ortiz fight after another, showtime is gonna win within a short period of time, not to mention i feel besides emmanuel steward, and the personality of jim lampley, showtime also has a better announcing team too imo. showtime > hbo imo.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
I might agree with you if boxing ever made it to network television, but it hasn’t. Also Showtime has had great fights for years mostly because they invest in the lower weight classes, which frankly have more action (I’m looking at you HW division), and they have had a better broadcast team for a good period of time (Bernstein is stupid awesome). So in that sense, showtime has been undermining HBO for a good long while. However, until they get a true measure of power in terms of creating matchups, they won’t be challenging the big boys for a while. If they got a bigger boxing budget, then they could be ridiculously way more awesome.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Jan 25, 2011 4:12 AM EST up reply actions
OH my f’ing god.
Hershman basically rabbit punched Greenburg. For all too long, HBO has taken forgranted that if there is a fight with a superstar they will fight on HBO PPV.
I never thought that Showtime had it in them to go for the knockout. I mean… this is epic news.
Getting CBS coverage is pretty big…It isn’t like they give away time there.
I know that Manny will KO Mosley but it stirs up interest from the mainstream more so than the usual 24/7 bland packaging that is becoming dated for boxing fights.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
I know boxing fans are kind of sick of 24/7 (well, some) but I’m telling you, if you put something with those kind of production values on network TV, people would be hooked like crazy. It’s an excellently-produced show.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 22, 2011 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
While I think that CBS’s show will reach more people and hype the fight up more than HBO’s 24/7, I would be shocked if it was done anywhere near as well. I’m expecting Olympic-style sentimental hogwash about Manny being an inspirational Congressman and Mosley hoping for one last big fight.
Have you seen Showtime’s Fight Camp 360 series for the Super Six tourney? It is excellent. IMO it’s better than HBO’s 24/7, which has become tired and increasingly artificial.
If CBS/Showtime produced a Fight Camp 360 style series for Pacquao-Mosley, I have to assume it would likewise be excellent.
the main thing i like more
is that they show the post fight events.. which really are great to see cuz its so rare u do.. which is a huge reason i enjoyed the pens caps 24/7
"After this, I'm gonna kick Bob Arum's ass."
-George Lopez
by Eddie Gonzalez on Jan 22, 2011 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
I think everyone who posts here has seen fightcamp 360 given that the awesomeness of showtime actually lets the entire vids to be shown on their website.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
I always wondered if Hershman had some pull with the higher ups at CBS Sports.
It is actually kinda amazing that CBS has reinvented itself. They were at least for me growing up, CBS is the old people channel. They have alot of things that excite me as a mid 20 year old besides sports.
I never see NBC, ABC or FOX… but that is another discussion within itself.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
CBS / Showtime seems to be getting bigger on cross-promotion
During the strike, putting Dexter on CBS really boosted Showtime’s numbers later on, so it seems like they’re pushing cross-promotion more since then.
Bad Left Hook - The SB Nation boxing blog
"Baseball is played on the field, not on a calculator."
That's exactly right. That's why this is so exciting.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
In the greater sense… look at what Showtime did to “Inside the NFL”, when they took the longest standing program on HBO. it was after that HBO brought Hard Knocks…
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Eh, HBO had lost interest in paying to produce Inside the NFL, which is just one (and hardly the best) of 700 NFL talk shows.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 22, 2011 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
All the footage is done by NFL films… they just need to tape the guys in a studio for commentary which is pennies compared to the return that they get.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
HBO cut the show for budgetary reasons. The all-star cast of the show demands a pretty penny, you know.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 22, 2011 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah… they needed to give Dawson three million of rematches that no one wanted to see, Berto his million and a half for fighting on undercards, among other things…
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Better them than four boring talking heads that are duplicated on 50 other shows that are all exactly the same, if you ask me.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 23, 2011 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
You make me sad :(
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
Inside the NFL sucks, is what I’m trying to say. I’d rather Andre Berto be able to make it rain than Cris Collinsworth or Warren Sapp.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 23, 2011 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
1 round of Berto facing a nobody isn’t a good thing my friend.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
I’d rather watch Berto fight an actual bum than watch Inside the NFL.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 24, 2011 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
An actual bum?
Like the guy out of the south park episode?
http://southpark-zone.blogspot.com/2008/01/s5-how-to-eat-with-your-butt.html
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
All I can think is that competition is good for boxing fans. It seemed for a long time that Showtime was content to play second fiddle to HBO, but now both are gonna have to step up their game. If they get into an arms race of who can put on the biggest and best match ups it’ll be a lot of fun for us.
"Mug an old lady, and if you have the right connections the WBO will rank you seventh." -Steve Farhood
I think this move is a no lose for boxing. Either way you slice it up the fact is that a boxing program will be on network television in what I assume will be a prime time spot. That in and of itself is a huge win for boxing. Can you imagine the response from the other networks if the 24/7 esque show does reasonably well? We could very well be on our way to seeing fights on network television again. Can you imagine seeing a boxing show open with ABC’s Wide World of Sports banner?
Now, because the comments feature were turned off for the recent admin note I will say this here. Bravo BLH and specifically Scott Christ for keeping this site clean. I have always felt that boxing fans, true boxing fans are the classiest fans in any sport. It pains me to go on YouTube and see the disgusting comments left by classless individuals attempting to be more ignorant then the previous poster. Racism and homophobic comments have no place in this sport of modern day gladiators. The courage it takes to lace em up alone demands and deserves the utmost respect. (Apologies for the mini rant)
http://tillithuyts.blogspot.com/
by glatin1982 on Jan 22, 2011 8:34 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Can you imagine seeing a boxing show open with ABC’s Wide World of Sports banner?
I can remember when boxing was free on tv and big fights were the biggest part of the nightly sports news—there’s an audience for it for sure imo. People will like the fights if they can see the fights. They have since time immemorial.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Boxing is alive. Rumors of it's early demise are greatly exaggerated.
This is excellent news for boxing. Whenever you have two competitors vying for the top spot, your chances of seeing the creme rise are far greater.
Golden Boy’s sweetheart deal with HBO made everyone lazy. By guaranteeing TV spots on the calendar to one promoter, the incentive for the latter to cultivate, nurture and develop fighters, their audiences and their markets is diminished. The long arrangement has lent itself to exactly what you would expect; and aging and withering stable with the once superior GBP.
Barring a few rising stars, Scott said it. Top Rank now has the three top names in American Boxing; Shane having left GB to join them. JMM, I suspect, is soon to follow.
And what Top Rank has, Showtime now gets to share. Starting with Manny. You can be certain that no measure to promote this fight will be unused. The global superstar meets America’s most notable active name fighter.
The questions are many but the prospects are enormous.
A few of the questions I have are :
What is Manny Steward thinking? He will be working for Cotto on the his employer HBO’s rival network, Showtime.
How does HBO counter?
Do they allow their deal with GBP to expire … or renegotiate?
How happy are Lou DiBella, Gary Shaw and others now that the HBO stranglehold is broken.
What great fights get made because new incentives to put on great fights will help them get paid?
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I don’t think DiBella or Shaw are particularly thrilled with this deal; they would probably prefer HBO to continue to have a stranglehold on matchmaking than to see Bob Arum acquire even more power. HBO wanted to make a fights between one of Arum’s stars Cotto and one of DiBella’s (Berto or Martinez). HBO put up the money to make a Bradley-Alexander fight. HBO dumped loads of cash on Dawson and Berto.
Also, while the HBO-Golden Boy deal was probably bad for boxing, there are rumors that Showtime agreed to future Top Rank dates in order to secure the Pacquiao bout. Top Rank may now similarly lack the incentive to cultivate fighters or at least make the best matches possible.
Why would any company that has two bidders instead of one have less incentive?
It doesn’t.
thge company that has less is the one that is getting made and paid no matter what they do.
All promoters with two (or more) networks competing for their product (fighters and matches) are in a better position to get better service (promotion) and more money for their fighters.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Well as I said, if this deal guarantees Top Rank other future Showtime dates, Arum too will be getting paid no matter what. And the improved service does not necessarily have to take the form of better promotion. It can also take the form of agreements to promote and air other fights that the network otherwise would have little interest in (e.g., Zbik vs. Chavez Jr.).
Arum is working harder to enlarge the playing field for his fighters. That's his job.
If he does it well, defined by getting his fighters more and better opportunities and thus money, his company will prosper. At the moment, his company is doing their job better than his competitors
Why you think that automatically results in him ‘getting paid no matter what’s beyond me. Don’t be a hater. More players competing for more fights lends itself to more fights and hopefully better quality. If bigger audiences are engaged because of a more diverse and competitive marketplace, all the better for boxing….and it’s fans.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I’m not entirely sure I understand your comment. You originally chastized HBO for the Golden Boy output deal, specifically because it allowed both the company and the fighters to get paid no matter what. If Showtime has reached a similar deal for guaranteed Top Rank dates, Arum himself is getting paid no matter what as well. You seem to be suggesting that the Golden Boy deal was bad for boxing, but if Arum has procured a sweetheart himself deal with Showtime, then I fail to see how it’s necessarily different.
Beyond this, even if there was no output agreement in exchange for the Pacquiao fight, I am a bit concerned that HBO’s refusal to pick up the Cotto-Martirosyan was what appears to have led to this outcome. Accepting bad in-house fights outside of the undercard may now become a condition of winning the Pacquiao sweepstakes (or that of any future superstar). In this case, competition between the TV networks may work to the advantage of promoters lucky enough to have such top stars, but it’s by no means clearly a good thing for fight fans.
Arum is in now way tying himself to an exclusive arrangement with Showtime.
His next big fight with Donaire against Montiel in February is with HBO. So you misunderstood the premise. Top Rank is enhancing options, not limiting them.
No longer will one network assume favor will bestowed upon them. Both will have to work for their opportunities to get the right to promote the best fights. There is nothing in that dynamic that should be anything but beneficial to fight fans, fighters and the potential expansion of boxings audience.
Agencies, promoters, etc of talent are not lucky. They work to get the best deals for their talent. arum does that better than his peers. Tomorrow that may be different. But it is trending TRs way for now.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
I did not misunderstand the premise
Arum agreed to that fight with HBO long before his Cotto match was turned down. Beyond this, Golden Boy’s deal with HBO did not preclude them from putting shows on Showtime; I would similarly expect Arum to continue to work with HBO even if he’s agreed to future dates with Showtime.
It’s great that Arum secures the best deals for himself and his fighters, and I would never begrudge him for attempting to do so. This move however is not an instance of networks competing against each other for the best fights, but a competition for the most popular fighter. What’s distressing is that the very competition was opened up because HBO was attempting to create one of the most compelling fights available, rather than completely bowing to the whims of Cotto and Top Rank. The ability of promoters to pit networks against each other to secure higher paydays and better promotion for the best fights is obviously a good thing for the sport. The ability of promoters to pit networks against each other in order to secure lower-risk fights or guaranteed dates is not, at least in my opinion.
by bachwards on Jan 23, 2011 1:34 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The best teams get the most exposure..thus the most money...in every sport.
The networks constantly shine of the top names because that is where the money is. No different here
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
The best promoted fighters get the most exposure, not necessarily the best in the sport. Even if we accept that the best fighters are in fact the most exposed, competition between networks for their bouts does not guarantee that they will in fact be involved in the best fights. If HBO only wants a popular fighter going against a high-risk opponent, and Showtime just wants the popular fighter at nearly any cost, then all things being equal it would make sense for that fighter’s promoter to take him to Showtime and take on a low-risk opponent.
Also, regarding your post below, the NFL’s television situation is quite disanalogous to that of boxing due to the NFL’s top-down structure. Individual teams do not negotiate one-on-one with the networks, as fighters and promoters in boxing do. The Browns cannot decide to avoid playing the Steelers on CBS and instead go take on the Bengals on NBC. Boxers and promoters can do this however, and greater competition between the networks can create a situation in which some boxers have greater opportunity to find and take the fights with the least risk, rather than the best.
by bachwards on Jan 23, 2011 2:11 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well debated, sir. (or madam)
You make a very good point.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Many good points.
But in life as in business, there are no guarantees. In the latter, the one thing you can be certain of is that all businesses are doing everything in their power to make as much money as possible. Hopefully, the competition and the desire to do so will lead to more, not less, options and opportunities for the fighters, their management and the fans.
I will use the commentators as examples of whereI believe we have already seen improvements. Showtime has cultivated AntonioTarver. HBO countered by hiring Roy Jones Jr.
Now if we are lucky, Jim , Larry and Max will have to up their game because Steve and Al are already operating on higher level.
Again, no guarantees….but network executives are going to be looking at their divisions with much more scrutiny for performance now that the gauntlet has been thrown down.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
This was really good reading. A very enjoyable debate!
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Jan 23, 2011 11:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
What’s distressing is that the very competition was opened up because HBO was attempting to create one of the most compelling fights available, rather than completely bowing to the whims of Cotto and Top Rank.
I think I may have missed this comment last night.
To which fight were you referring here?
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
Cotto-Martinez and Cotto-Berto. Those were the opponents HBO wanted Cotto to fight. The first fell through because Arum did not want to co-promote with DiBella even though it would have been Martinez’s middleweight belt on the line. The second appears to have been a money issue, with Arum saying Berto priced himself out and DiBella claiming that the 1.85 million Berto asked for was out of the total package, not just his cut of the HBO money. When the Martinez-Cotto fight fell through, both fighters still had fights booked for March 12th, and HBO chose Martinez instead of the proposed Cotto-Martirosyan fight. This was what set Arum off with all of the “I will never forgive HBO” and “This affects ALL of our relationships” comments. I think Arum is justifiably focused on the Cotto-Margarito rematch and just wanted to give Cotto a tuneup fight after a long layoff, but I don’t think HBO is obliged to air that tuneup when they’ll have a competitive match with last year’s fighter of the year.
I think Arum is justifiably focused on the Cotto-Margarito rematch and just wanted to give Cotto a tuneup fight after a long layoff, but I don’t think HBO is obliged to air that tuneup when they’ll have a competitive match with last year’s fighter of the year.
As one who has greatly anticipated Cotto Margarito II and believes it will be a huge fight, I would have never have expected Cotto to fight either Martinez or Berto first; money and TV dates notwithstanding.
Cotto, of all the names mentioned, is still the draw….and Arum did the best thing he could to arrange a sequence of fights that will get Miguel the most money possible. If he gets past Mayorga, he’ll get Margarito. If he is still fighting at that point (which I assume he will be), his reward may be Pacquiao.
I should add that I think Cotto Mayorga will be fun….but it is his next fight I’m looking forward to.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
i say cotto still has no chance agst pacman, the old cotto would have knocked out pac in the mid rounds, but the cotto from july 26, 2008 and on cannot do it. i’d rather see cotto clean out 154, or take on good fighters not named pacquiao. but that’s just me.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
I'm with you Caveman
Miguel has so much fight in him but he does not the the A+ skills to offset Pacquiao’s
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
dude! how did you know I was Caveman Lee? :) yes i had my bad run in with hagler, but he been avoiding a rematch for years! i wouldn’t even say the skills, his power is very good, not great, but he no longer has the confidence to mix it up and get the better of opponents, like 2006 cotto mosley, every time mosley would rally, cotto’s instinct would be to counter left hook, or bang to the body, and after 3-4 rounds of that, his opponents would wear down. cotto had an aura of invincibility from early on to 2008, i mean he made fighting alfonso gomez to be like fighting a kid.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
You mentioned it in your post about TSS the other day.
I wrote you back … Saying how EM was great but there were too many flame wars for my taste…and that BLH is the bomb.
I signed it pakinpower aka Fe’Roz. Pc
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
yo dude! it’s you! sorry! posts get queued and moved down fast over here! wow! good to see you! weren’t you writing for tss? how you? tss is great. just that the best users stopped going and got taken over by trolls and mediocres and flame throwers and even a few flamers. wussup?
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
i miss f-lo too, and toledo.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
Precisely.
EM just doesnt moderate the threads like SC does here.
And yes, Toledo and F-lo are superb.
Great to hear from you.
Hope all is well.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
You're Fe'roz?
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
maybe
just maybe.. the lure of cbs and its 115 million viewers will entice mayweather for a fall fight.. against you know who… we shall see… but roger beating his case this week may add fuel to that fire.. this is gonna get interesting
"After this, I'm gonna kick Bob Arum's ass."
-George Lopez
by Eddie Gonzalez on Jan 22, 2011 10:10 PM EST reply actions
HBO passing on a wildly expensive crap fight does not mean the tide is switching to Showtime at all. This is a smart business move by HBO. This fight is headed for a disappointing buyrate no matter who produced it and HBO probably knows that.
By your logic that the public doesn’t know that Mosley is way past his prime, the world would have its eyes glued to the TV tonight watching Holyfield. Give the “public” more credit. Anyone considering this fight almost certainly would have slept through rounds 3-12 of Mosley-Mayweather.
A couple of 12:30 a.m. countdown shows on CBS aren’t going to turn this fight into something anyone cares about.
Forgive me but I have to disagree with you. I would argue that Pacquiao vs. Clottey was the real “garbage fight” that HBO should have passed on. This is a commercially viable fight and obviously Showtime has something at it’s disposal that HBO has never even considered; a major US network. HBO is notorious for overpaying for fights that leave fight fans scratching their heads. See:Pacquiao vs. Clottey, any Andre Berto fight, Mayweather vs. Marquez (it was a money fight at best and Marquez never had a chance at the weight it was fought)
http://tillithuyts.blogspot.com/
by glatin1982 on Jan 22, 2011 10:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You’re operating under the assumption that HBO passed. I don’t think that’s the case. HBO supported Pacquiao-Margarito and Pacquiao-Clottey, AND they ran with Mosley-Mora ON PPV.
By your logic that the public doesn’t know that Mosley is way past his prime, the world would have its eyes glued to the TV tonight watching Holyfield.
When Holyfield has a fight marketed by something bigger than Integrated Sports, let me know. Holyfield is also 48, and hasn’t had a marquee fight in several years. The comparison holds no water.
Give the "public" more credit.
Why?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Jan 22, 2011 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
There was a smidge of intrigue to the Clottey fight since he had just fought a good fight with Cotto and seemed pre-fight to be viable. I agree with you on the Pac-Marg fight. HBO should not have bought the fight in my opinion and it was a relative disappointment all told. Can’t compare the Mosley-Mora fight as that was much cheaper and more of a niche PPV that had low expectations.
I just can not see people paying to see Shane Mosley. I could be wrong. The sad thing is that Bob Arum is going to start hyping up the “Pacquiao has never fought a black fighter” thing any minute now because it is really the only way to go with the promotion.
Another sad aside, listen to Shane Mosley talk and remember that he used to be a guy that was pretty good behind a microphone. He’s on the fast track to Meldrick Taylor land and it is really unnecessary.
by BabyBull1289 on Jan 23, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
The sad thing is that Bob Arum is going to start hyping up the "Pacquiao has never fought a black fighter" thing any minute now because it is really the only way to go with the promotion.
And then expect to see Arum stfu quick smart when someone mentions Josh Clottey…..
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Nope, he’ll continue because Clottey isn’t African American even though he’s an African that lives in America . . .
by BabyBull1289 on Jan 23, 2011 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
haha!
Yeah, that’s fun.
I just can’t get ‘into’ a fight for Pacquaio with anyone but Floyd now, and I think that boat has sailed.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Not sure about long-term impact
The trouble with competition is that, within a given sport, you really want less rather than more. Of course, you always want the contests themselves to be competitive, whether it is football or boxing or whatever. But in business terms, a centralized structure is preferable. That’s the key to the major team sports and other entities such as UFC and the PGA.
What is the real upshot of HBO and Showtime competing more evenly? I suppose the most attractive match-ups could be bid up a bit higher. At any given time though there is a limit to how many great fights can really be made, when you factor in all the variables at work. It could mean less money for good fights that lack boxers with high name recognition.
Maybe I’m just not getting it, but it doesn’t seem like these developments really address boxing’s issues in the US.
The NFL doesn't agree with your argument.
It has arrangements with three networks simultaneously.
Their feeling is that no matter how many games are played, they will get better compensation packages and services from each network….the upside going through them and hopefully their fighters.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
IT IS SHOWTIME!
NOW I HAVE TO CANCEL MY HBO AND SWITCH TO SHOWTIME
yeah,
I’m cancelling HBO too. If they air a good one, it’s $2 to turn it on, $2 to turn it off, about a $1 a day, that’s a lot cheaper than what I’ve been paying for monthly. Most of their good ones this season are PPV, and even if I pay the $5 twice in one month—that is, to see the ppv free the week later, I’ll save money.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
What else do HBO show?
I mean, I’m assuming they don’t just show boxing, and I have no idea what else they schedule.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
Some of the very best home grown TV series ever created for the medium
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
The Sopranos, The Wire, Boardwalk Empire… all the top series, basically. Sky have recently signed a deal with HBO where we’re going to get all their best TV shows on Sky Atlantic HD. I don’t think it involves rights to show all the boxing too, but its still pretty good.
Such were the days, still, hot, heavy, disappearing one by one into the past, as if falling into an abyss for ever open in the wake of the ship; and the ship, lonely under a wisp of smoke, held on her steadwast way black and smouldering in a luminous immensity, as if scorched by a flame flicked at her from a heaven without pity.
by Oli Goldstein on Jan 23, 2011 11:55 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Gotcha.
In which case, that’s the sort of channel I’d definitely be subscribing to.
In 2008 Lewis commented on a possible match up with Riddick Bowe. "He waits until I am in retirement to call out my name," said Lewis. "I will come out of retirement to beat up that guy. I'll beat him up for free."
love what showtime is doing
from their terriffic tv lineup to stealing bute away to now landing a pacman fight. well done showtime execs. this is far cry when they seemed to give up, especially with boxing, when 4 or 5 years ago they did a “1 fight a month” gimmick that was pretty awful. turned out to be a horrible year for them.
showtime for years and years has had a history of fighters leaving and going to hbo, naz, tito trinidad, calzaghe, timothy bradley etc. competition is good for boxing here folks.
as for the tv show leading up to the fight, its huge, huge for showtime boxing and showtime in general. the subscriptions boost alone the pac and mosley tv show is going to be enormous for showtime here. they need to not only pimp their fighters but really really pimp dexter, nurse jackie, shameless, californication and that awesome lesbian show. more showtime subscriptions, more asses in seats watching boxing is a good good thing.
again well done, showtime.
"Newspapermen ask dumb questions. They look up at the sun and ask if it is shining."
-Sonny Liston
by sonofapsycho on Jan 23, 2011 7:45 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
And Showtime has long known the lower weights yield the best fights. Now Greenberg is trying to get in on the business by deemphasizing heavies and getting shit like Montiel-Donaire. Even shit like the Super 6, which hardly went off without a hitch, at least they’re trying something.
Showtime is innovating. Showtime is leading and HBO is following. At least that’s my read on it at the moment.
Most people don't know shit about boxing. At all. Period. - Roger Mayweather
by The Kittitas Kid on Jan 23, 2011 2:14 PM EST up reply actions
I think so too
And the Super Six morphed from one thing into another thing, but all the fights have been good but one, and that’s really something—never happens. And people got into it some, even mainstream a little. they’ve played a smarter game.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
by BoxAnne on Jan 23, 2011 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
montiel donaire should be helluva fight. it’s donaire’s biggest test since darchinyan, that was 3 years ago! 2008 koty.
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
I know I’ve expressed a fair bit of skepticism about both the motives and consequences of this deal, but in the interest of fairness I should recommend everyone read Thomas Hauser’s story of how HBO lost the Pacquiao fight on Max Boxing. While there are two sides to every story and Hauser seems to mainly be relying on Top Rank sources, he does suggest that this deal was the result of both a number of grievances held by Arum extending beyond the March Cotto fight and a fairly aggressive campaign by Showtime/CBS led by Les Moonves. He also provides some of the details of what CBS’s involvement in the promotion actually entails. Here is the link: http://www.maxboxing.com/news/main-lead/how-hbo-lost-manny-pacquiao
I read that but thank you Bachwards. pc
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
WIll check it out.
Thanks Bach.
Most people don't know shit about boxing. At all. Period. - Roger Mayweather
by The Kittitas Kid on Jan 24, 2011 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
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