Holyfield at Forty-Eight

the test at the moment is clearly not stringent enough, as you can See without being any sort of an expert, or hear when he talks, that he shouldn’t be licensed to fight. I agree that perhaps not solely age, perhaps also number of fights etc.

I think that if there are obvious concerns (which is a grey area) then one should have to pass a more stringent test – and he would fall into the category of one about whom there would be an ‘obvious concern’ about the damage boxing has already done to him.

but I don’t know how he passes.

One day some bright spark’s family is going to sue some commission for continuing to allow him to fight, and then by showing how inadequate the tests are/& subsequent injury, the tests will all of a sudden become more universally stringent

Why should he have to pass a more stringent test?

He shouldn’t. The licensure doctors should apply the test as written and he wouldn’t be fighting. I’m sort of at a loss here, Jrok – do you really believe that Evander Holyfield’s brain is in fighting shape? Should we really just forego having a medical standard for boxing? That’s your argument? If not, tell me how Evander “I border on needing subtitles” Holyfield is fit to take heavyweight punches to the bran?

He sat out the suspension, then went right back on fighting.

Him almost beating Valuev was the worst thing that could have happened for him, IMO. That, and owning a $150 million house that requires $2 million a year in maintenance costs but he can’t sell.

I don’t believe Holyfield could pass an objective application…

That’s nice. Isn’t it nice you and I have beliefs? However, your belief requires concrete evidence, while mine does not. Sort of like “I think therefore I am” or “We hold these truths to be self-evident.”

So, if my belief is true that Holyfield is getting a favorable medical review because some promoter’s gonna make a buck, we don’t need a more stringent test. We just need an objective application.

Brock wasn’t arguing that. He was arguing for more stringent standards for pre-determined “risk groups;” in this case for guys like Mercer and Holyfield, who we generally think as boxing fans should go out to pasture.

Do you believe there should be any type of medical test to fight? From your perspective on your "natural law" beliefs, it seems that you may not.

That’s B.S. Where did I say there shouldn’t be a test? Your quotes around “natural law” is a bunch of horsecrap. Apparently, you’ve already decided what you wanted to argue, despite anything I have actually said. I expect better from you.

We regulate all kinds of activities in society, through common agreement, and these regulations are always pressing up against our natural liberties as individuals. Boxing in itself is a sort of living testament to this friction between “do what you want, as long as it doesn’t infringe on anyone else’s rights” and “do what the majority thinks you ought to do, whether it’s any of our business or not.”

Once upon a time, boxing had no gloves, let alone no physical test. And before that, fistfights were arranged without regard to weight. Boxing as a sport all about conforming to a mutual acceptable set of rules, and as a commercial practice various venues have applied their own standards. The standard, however, should be universally applied, or it is not an objective standard, and is just using law as a cover to do what you want to do (in your case, keep Evander out of a boxing ring.) And that’s what you are doing. You’re saying “well, I’m no doctor, but, uh, he sounds fucked up to me.”

I think a medical standard is a great innovation, but not because I think it’s my duty to protect Evander Holyfield from himself. Like, I’ve said on many, I believe that it causes a lot of damage to the sport itself when tragedies happen, either in the ring or with long term damage to participants.

If I was Evander’s close friend, I’d probably beg him to stop fighting for the sake of his own health. But if he passes the same standard test that is applied to everyone else, I don’t start advocating that we strip him of his right to earn a living because “he sounds fucked up to me.” Nobody looked as “fucked up” as Jerry Quarry towards the end of his career. Holyfield looked like a prime fighter in there on Saturday compared to Jerry in the final years of his career. He flunked almost every single test he was given, and so he’d keep moving to the next venue, fishing for a commission that would pass him. And, because there was no universal standard, the tragedy ran it’s awful course.

So yeah, let’s have a Universal Standard test, by chartered-agreement of the major sanctioning bodies. I’m not going to hold my breath, but that’s the only reasonable way to go about it. And even then, you will see fighters who need to make a buck stage exhibitions and get around it. As unfortunate as it is, we can’t change that without intruding to much into people’s private lives.

I can sympathize with your concern for your mother—and I’ll tell you what, they are right once in a while, and it can be that one time that’s important. Nonetheless, they are a hidden scandal, and I’m by no means the only educated (and in my case raised by pharmacists) person who thinks so, and have had bad, endangering experiences with them that really keep you away unless your back is to the wall. And even then, speaking solely on my own account and in no way advising anything I do for others, I might just rather die on my own turf than let them kill me by accident, meaning well.

but he still sounds slow….and I think those links show quite clearly that his speech has really got much worse. Whether you can argue that he then shouldn’t pass a brain scan/medical to fight off that, I don’t know. I don’t think its humane, when someone sounds like that and they’re that old (its not Just age, its the fact that they’ve absorbed a lot of punishment…)

everyone else is blockquoting :)

they took me straight to the youtube link? Just listened to them here…what happens for you?

without coaching, really a lot of young athletes can’t speak well at all, in all sports. It’s the ones that can that get the commentator gigs—but think of Devon Alexander. Ive seen him interviewed after fights and sometimes he does ok, and sometimes he’s incomprehensible. He’s always likable, but he can’t ad lib well, repeats himself, says like, like, like y’know etc all the way through—he’s just an example, there are lots of them, more than not, like that. Their intelligence is real, but not that verbal.

By the way, Mel Taylor versus Joe Frazier is a good example of how slurred/mangled speech can point to a very wide spectrum of damage, from minor/surface-level (Frazier) to major (Taylor).

those are the guys that I can find easily. I don’t know that Hagler’s had a commentator gig has he? – I just can find Italian movies he’s been in.

Ali shouldn’t have been fighting down the stretch of his career either – he was displaying bad signs before he fought Berbick and Holmes.

Yea, just like boxing doesn’t want to put these guys in front of the camera too much, the NFL is changing their shit to avoid having a similar blow-back. All these brutal penalty calls are a result of that.

On a related side-note, did you see the thing on HBO about Lou Gherig’s disease with the fighter from Minnesota, can’t remember his name. White dude, got KO’d by Foreman, nothing special but tough as shit and probably kind of dirty.

You’ve now compared Holyfield to both Meldrick Taylor and Jerry Quarry in the twilight of their careers. Your judgment in this regard speaks for itself… it stinks. Holyfield isn’t going to win a world title – and would get hurt trying – but Taylor and Quarry could barely stay on their feet.

You also seem to strongly believe that strangers should do what you say when it comes to their life decisions. You’ve been attacking me non-stop on a blog post where I explicitly say “I think Holyfield should retire.” In a way, it was the entire point of the fucking post. Shit, read it again.

So, I am a monster for saying I think that Holyfield should retire, but that I don’t know all the facts and that I don’t feel like I should have godlike control over his life decisions. Meanwhile you are a hero for demanding he do what you say, even though you also don’t have all the facts, and aren’t going to pay Holyfield’s bills when his licensed is revoked.

I know it’s just a conversation, but it’s over now. You and I have very different ideas about the world, and this conversation is now more about those than it is about Holyfield or boxing. That means we should put an end to it, okay?