Effective Aggressor: Breaking Down the Scoring of Pacquiao vs Marquez III
Oli Goldstein examines unofficial HBO judge Harold Lederman's judging criteria for the Pacquiao vs Marquez fight on Saturday night.
If you've read any of my comments over the past couple of days, you'll know I stand pretty firmly in the camp of people who had Juan Manuel Marquez beating Manny Pacquiao on Saturday night. I scored the fight 116-112 to the Mexican, who I feel landed the more decisive blows throughout and dictated the pace of the action over the entire course of the fight. Scott's already gone through his scorecard a second time today, so I'm going to try to break down Harold Lederman's unofficial HBO card.
I'm not going to nitpick too much with the judges' scorecards. I think it's frankly ridiculous that neither Glenn Trowbridge nor Dave Moretti scored one of rounds 8 to 10 inclusive for Marquez, but you can argue with that all day long.
What does concern me are the grounds on which Lederman - and perhaps others - scored the fight for Pacquiao.
I can see the fight for Pacquiao, I think. I understand it was close. I understand Pacquiao landed more punches over the course of the fight. I understand he was constantly moving forward.
But is that enough to win a fight?
We're told so frequently by Lederman about the criteria for judging fights: namely, effective aggression; defence; clean, hard punching; and, the ever-elusive ring generalship. Indeed, these are the principles upon which Lederman based his 116-112 scorecard for Pacquiao. However, looking at what each category really means, I find it particularly hard to see how his arguments were truly applicable to this fight.
Effective aggression, to me, means exactly what it says on the tin. To win a fight, you must be aggressive, and you must be effective. I generally think this category fits in with defence pretty nicely, as both guarantee that:
- You can't win a fight defending effectively but not throwing any punches
- You can't win a fight walking forward and throwing lots of punches without defending yourself properly
- You can't win a fight walking forward not landing anything
I'd like to clear up where I think judging has gone wrong with regard to these two categories. For starters, I think effective aggression has been overvalued in relation to defence. Looking at last year's fight between Devon Alexander and Andriy Kotelnik, Alexander won rounds for coming forward and throwing lots of punches, despite missing a huge amount and in turn being caught all night by the Kotelnik right hand. You can't - or shouldn't - be able to win fights just on the basis of aggression.
What's more, you don't need to be on the front foot to be aggressive. This, again, is an oversimplification of the term which looks to justify lackadaisical judging, in my opinion. Kotelnik succeeded in catching Alexander all night long off the back foot when they fought. Marquez was constantly looking to land on Pacquiao on Saturday night. Is that not aggression? Just because Marquez was moving laterally and stepping off, doesn't mean he was fighting passively. The guy who's moving backwards isn't necessarily being less aggressive, just fighting in a different style.
Moreover, somewhere along the lines, Harold Lederman and the HBO crew forgot the meaning of the word ‘effective.' I'm not going to remind anyone here; however, when scoring a fight, your aggression has to be exactly that - effective. Lederman cites Pacquiao as ‘the effective aggressor' throughout the fight, and gave Manny ‘rounds one and three because of [that] fact.' There was also a big hoo-ha about how Manny was more efficiently aggressive in the late rounds. But was this really the case? Was Pacquiao really more aggressive, and more effective, just because he was coming forward? Or was Harold Lederman dramatically oversimplifying these terms as a means of justifying his own judging?
Clean, hard punching, again, does what it says on the tin. However, this category is what, for me, makes Compubox-based arguments obsolete and irrelevant. Unless punch statistics are used to point toward fights like Dave Tiberi-James Toney or Joel Casamayor-Jose Armando Santa Cruz, obvious robberies where Tiberi and Santa Cruz' more effective aggression and cleaner punching are supported by the stats, Compubox doesn't help to qualify who scored the harder punches. It quantifies who landed more, but we don't just score fights on volume. Things get trickier if, in a hypothetical situation, one fighter lands a few cleaner, harder punches, and the other guy lands a lot of slappy punches, but I'd be inclined to say that the effect of a blow on the opponent should undoubtedly be taken into consideration when judging a fight. That's a reason why I think Bernard Hopkins has a pretty significant argument to say that he won the Calzaghe fight, where Joe landed a lot of punches which largely came from the elbows and had no effect on Bernard.
Finally, I'll briefly touch on the notion of ring generalship, which I think is by far the most abstract of all these criteria. Indeed, while I think concepts such as effective aggression, good defence and clean punching should carry with them a level of objectivity, I think ring generalship is clearly the most subjective of terms. To emphasise my point, I really believe that if we can truly understand that effective aggression doesn't just mean walking forward - and must instead also be efficient - then we can begin to achieve a greater, more objective standard of judging. Same goes for defence and clean, hard punching.
So, what is ring generalship? Well, this, supposedly: "Manny Pacquiao's got ring generalship, he hits you and slips to the side." To say I'm firmly opposed to this idea would be an understatement. Ring generalship, at least to me, involves dictating the pace and controlling the direction of the fight. In this category, Juan Manuel Marquez was the clear winner. Another area where Compubox does come in handy, at least only in hindsight, I'd just like to point out some of the punch numbers from Pacquaio's fights at welterweight.
Taken from the Compubox website, I'd like to cite these statistics: "Since meeting Marquez (in 2008), Pacquiao averaged 79.2 punches per round, of which he landed 34 percent. That percentage was a mixed bag, for while his jab remains inaccurate (4.0 of 30.9, 13.1 percent), his power punching more than made up for it (22.9 of 48.3, 47.5 percent)." Fights which occur at Pacquiao's speed see him throwing upwards of 950 punches. On Saturday night, he was limited to 560 over the entire fight.
These statistics quantify exactly what many of us saw on Saturday - a fight where Marquez dictated the tempo and controlled the action in the ring. Manny's offensive typhoon was never allowed to get going. Not because of ‘himself', despite the ridiculous suggestions of Max Kellerman, but because he was fighting a smarter boxer who knew how to use the ring and control the pace. As was pointed out by BLH member Apprentice on another thread the other day, the one round where Pacquiao really managed to get Marquez into a firefight was round 9; however, in the 10th, Marquez immediately slowed the pace and got the fight back to how he wanted it.
These categories are abstract. There are no positively objective criteria to scoring a fight, which is why it's impossible to truly dish the dirt on judges who score close fights like this one way or the other. As far as I'm concerned, if you follow terms like effective aggression, defence, clean punching and ring generalship to the book, you should score the fight for Juan Manuel Marquez. However, I can also accept that there were plenty of rounds where Pacquiao did score punches and where his constant forward motion did translate into (somewhat) effective aggression. I'm not going to chide anyone for scoring the fight for Pacquiao, because it's your call.
But, as far as I'm concerned, Harold Lederman dramatically over-simplified judging criteria on Saturday night as a means of justification for scoring this fight for Pacquiao. This could have been Harold towing the company line, which I think is a feasible argument given the ludicrous bias displayed by the commentary team towards Manny, as picked up by Scott earlier in the day. However, effective aggression, defence, clean punching and ring generalship all lost their true definition in Lederman's scoring on Saturday night. That, in my opinion, is a fact.
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Lederman was insane in his explanations the other night...
The one jewel for me was on defense: “Marquez is swollen, Manny’s not”. Since when did the condition of a fighter’s face determine what was happening in the ring? A cut or swelling can occur from one punch landed, even though a lot were missed; does this mean the fighter has no defense? That statement (along with the aggression) was/is my biggest pet peeve from the broadcast.
Spot On
That line made me laugh and it will be a while before I take anything Lederman says without a grain of salt. He might as well have said, Manny is our boy there is no way I will dis-credit him
by Sweet science on Nov 14, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
Even the great line about whoose defence was better?
by Sweet science on Nov 14, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Will you please learn how to spell defense, SS!!!
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
RULE BRITTANIA
(I keed I keed)
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
With all due respect to OilGold's tenacity
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Thanks, Ted – I do appreciate it.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
12 rounds is not enough for these 2 great boxers to decide who would win convincingly...
Really, I wouldn’t have a problem either of them getting the decision. but considering how fierce the rivalry between the two, I wished that any of them would have a clear decision that can not be argued.
You can all say that the argument of the judges who scored it for Pacquiao is misconceived it is still a valid argument. Frankly, I am a Pacquiao fan but I wished Marquez had gotten the W so a 4th fight can be discussed immediately.
Agree 100% with this entire post.
Lederman’s understanding of the judging criteria is shallow at best and this fight once again exposed that fact. Anyone who thinks he’s somehow an authoritative source on scoring needs to listen to his terrible explanations for his completely daffy card during Alexander-Kotelnik.
Fact?
An opinion by definition is never fact. So just a heads up, don’t preface that something is “fact” by stating “in my opion” just prior.
I can’t see how anyone can say that someone for sure won that fight, it was too close. If someone says that one guy or the other ran away with that fight then they were more than likely biased toward one fighter to begin with.
I didn’t care who won, I just wanted to see a good fight and I got it. Too close to call, could’ve gone either way.
Don’t let it go to the judges and put the other guy down if you want to beat the champ.
by iareawesomeness on Nov 14, 2011 11:07 AM EST reply actions
An opinion by definition is never fact. So just a heads up, don’t preface that something is "fact" by stating "in my opion" just prior.
Who brought this rocket scientist over here?
Well, thanks for telling me that – I’m quite aware that opinions can’t be facts; my closing line was a quip on the strong opinions we’ve all got over this subject. But, hey, maybe I’ll include a disclaimer next time just so “iareawesomeness” is aware.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
Don’t let it go to the judges and put the other guy down if you want to beat the champ.
This is a ridiculous sentiment, and it is all over combat sports.
People always seem to think that the champion should get all of the breaks, or that to beat a champion you have to do so decisively. This is ridiculous. The belt means nothing once you enter the ring. You can look through the unified rules all you want, but you won’t find any mention of the fact that a champion should get the really close rounds. Or that the champion starts with a three round lead.
The idea is silly, and it has got to go. All you have to do to become champion is to perform slightly better on one night. Previous accomplishments mean nothing in the ring. Every fight needs to be judged on its own merits.
by KyleAskine on Nov 14, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Agreed. As a few of us said on another post, it’s one of the most ludicrous, archaic notions in the sport. You win or you lose. It’s that simple.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
I think its more about who is the star and the moneymaker because Hagler can tell you otherwise about the champion mantra.
by tacklerford on Nov 14, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
So can Hearns ala Hearns vs. SRL in fight no 3.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I think the only way we can have a decisive fight between Pacquiao and Marquez is if we make it 15 rounds
12 rounds is just not enough
I pretty much ignore everything Harold Lederman says. Lederman’s biases are obvious and don’t need to be explained here.
There should be ONE criteria for judging in boxing: CLEAN PUNCHING. That’s it. If you are exhibiting good “ring generalship” then by extension you should be doing the majority of the clean punching, otherwise what good is your “ring generalship”? Same thing for “effective aggressiveness.” If you’re not doing the clean punching, then your aggressiveness is not effective.
It’s simple. Who is doing the most damage? Forget all of this other nonsense.
Disagree
You might as well bring in the Amatuer scoring system
by Sweet science on Nov 14, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions
“I saw a very, very close bout. I saw hard punches landed by both fighters. I saw Pacquiao as the effective aggressor and Marquez as the effective counter-puncher. I saw Marquez throwing a right hand across his chest that neutralized Pacquiao coming in and out at his preferred angle. Perhaps I’m guilty of what many fans and judges are guilty of and that is having a hard time handing rounds to a man who is backing up—even if he’s effective in counter-punching, there is no doubt that Pacquiao was landing (see: punch stats). An effective counter-puncher will always have difficulty winning rounds against an effective aggressor – this has existed for time immemorial. My card was a draw going into the 12th. I thought Marquez was overly cautious in the 12th and spent 2:15 of the round backing up. Manny did VERY LITTLE in the 12th as well, but it only takes a VERY LITTLE in a round when YOU are going forward and your opponent is OVERLY CAUTIOUS going backward. This was not a robbery, but I can easily understand the disappointment of Marquez fans”
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
tHIS WAS FROM ANOTHER POSTER ON ANOTHER SITE, BUT I AGREE EXCEPT i HAD PAC WINNING GOING INTO THE 12TH
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Great analysis. I definitely think these concepts need to be examined and critiqued, just like any other piece of “common sense” knowledge in life. These concepts become naturalized and people repeat them ad nauseam without thinking about what it entails or what it means. Furthermore, I thought the Alexander/Kotelnik comparison was spot on. That was another fight where Harold Lederman was simply inexplicable, and it’s due to this archaic adherence to these “staples”.
Thanks, by the way, for the shout out! =) Appreciate it!
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
No problem, glad you agree!
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with the post. I truly believe the HBO crew and Harold have a man-crush on Manny, and that was the reason for the obviously biased commentating. Who knows? Maybe they HAVE to in order to promote Manny, and make the next fight to make more money, or maybe it’s what they truly believe, but it was NOT objective scoring and commentating, and CHUMP-U-BOX was wrong b/c they had Manny outlanding Marquez in rounds that Marquez obviously beat him up in, and honestly, Manny landed 3-5 CLEAN punches in the entire fight, so how could he have outlanded Marquez? I think we need to question the system of compubox in these situations, b/c the system involves 3 people clicking on some button if they see a landed hit, and if all 2 or 3 click at the same time then we have a landed shot. They can obviously be influenced by the crowd, the hype, and/or Manny Pacquiao and his star power itself. Because of that compubox in this situation is flawed imo. Pc!
"According to all the laws of aerodynamics the bumble-bee should not fly, but the bumble-bee does not know this and so flies anyway."
I agree with you
and so this is a good write-up.
While it was a close fight, I think the reason that many people in the Marquez camp are calling it a robbery is the pacing. Manny came forward, but he didn’t get off in the way that makes him MANNY.
Strategiery, tactics, ring generalship-whatever you call it, Marquez dominated that aspect of the fight, which makes it feel like a wide JMM win if you acknowledge that a punch thrown in response to the opponent’s “first” punch counts at all.
Disagree
I didn’t score the fight so it’s hard for me to really say who I think was more deserving. But while Lederman said some odd things, I think his basic philosophy is correct. I don’t think counter-punching is a form of aggression, though certainly a fighter has to be credited for landing blows. It really is a form of defense, in that it deters an opponent’s attack.
If you had two fighters who exclusively counter-punched and/or moved backwards, there would be no fight. So if one fighter is making the fight with his aggression, then he is displaying ring generalship and the other fighter is reacting to that. Now, the defensive fighter can still win if he neutralizes the attack and lands better shots, but ring generalship shouldn’t be a synonym for clever defense; there is already a category for that.
A sloppy attack (e.g., Froch against Dirrell) shouldn’t be rewarded in my opinion, but that is a far cry from what we saw from Manny.
Ring generalship shouldn’t be in the rules since it’s not something that can be clearly defined. If you can’t define it I don’t want judges trying to use it.
Managing Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
by Brent Brookhouse on Nov 14, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
But it is. That's the point. And American judges have a way of looking at it that's not unlike Harold's perspective,
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Walking forward should not by definiton mean someone is “general” in the ring. Marquez clearly intended to draw Pacquiao forward, rather than moving forwards himself. As such, your argument that Pacquiao was making the fight and thus displaying ring generalship doesn’t make much sense when one fighter inherently wants the other to come towards them.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 4:39 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe to you it doesn't but to the judges it sure did
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Yup. I think they were wrong.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 4:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, but what if Manny didn’t come forward? Then there’s no fight. JMM wanted to fight in a defensive style. That’s fine, but it’s not ring generalship- it’s just the approach that best suits his abilities. He reacted to Manny… that’s not ring generalship.
by drivlikejehu on Nov 14, 2011 8:13 PM EST up reply actions
He was coming backwards
But stayed away from the Big left hand as Lee Payton points out in his post, and staying away from the ropes and corners. That is very good ring generalship
by Sweet science on Nov 14, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
There are no positively objective criteria to scoring a fight
Not so sure about that. What about knockdowns during an otherwise even round? What about fouls? Those are objective criteria by which to score a point. Also, of a fighter throws no punches during a round, objectively speaking his opponent wins that round 10-9 all other things being equal. Judges strive to quantify their scoring as much as possible because if they are called to task by some commission, they will have the supportive backup. I know enough judges to know this to be so. Point: Objective criteria exists in my opinion though most judging is predicated on subjective analysis of the criteria available such as ring generalship, effective punching, etc. Boxing is and always has been a subjective affair subject to widely divergent opinion. This fight is a classic example of that notion.
As for taking a champ’s title, that notion came about because the power that be did not want draws in championship fights. The absence of even rounds plays in to that.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Ted, not intending to be rude but I think that’s nitpicking. I’m well aware that knockdowns objectively result in points being deducted. Bringing that up is just a way to distract from the argument, as far as I’m concerned.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 2:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
That's not the way it was intended. I don't nitpick. I debate.
.
if you put up a thread, you need to deal with push back (as well as agreement) without calling it “nitpicking.” That’s just not acceptable to me. As a respted writer, when I get posters who disaree with me, "I am extremely careful to not insult them-I need as many posters as I can get and tyhat has always been my style. I tend to say something to the effect " I totally disagree because of the following….but I do understand and respect your point."
As for this post, I frankly thought it was pretty balanced. You have to accept the disagreement with the agreement…and since I have a hot one on Boxing.com on this very subject, I plan to hold my ground like a Georgia Mule unless you can convince me otherwise.
What I am sayinmg here Oil is don’t be so sensitive. You made a great thread, but undserstand that some will disagree. It comes with the territory.
Peace
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I’m not being sensitive, I just don’t see how your post was disagreeing with me at all. You obviously know that I’m aware that being knocked down, or being caught fouling, sees a fighter docked a point. That’s why it wasn’t really constructive, just, I don’t know – it seemed nitpicky. I appreciate that you disagree with me, I just think that was basically unnecessary in the grand scheme of this debate. No problem.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
I saw a very close bout. I saw hard punches landed by both fighters. I saw Pacquiao as the effective aggressor and Marquez as the effective counter-puncher. I saw Marquez throwing a right hand across his chest that seemed to neutralizedPacquiao coming in and out at his preferred angles. Maybe I have a hard time handing rounds to a man who is backing up—even if he’s effective in counter-punching, An effective counter-puncher will always have difficulty winning rounds against an effective aggressor in my opinion and based on my 60 some years of watching fights. I believe Marquez was too tentative in the final round spending most of it backing up and thereby eleciiting comments from Manny Steward as to the wisdom of what was going on in there . Since Pac was going forward and JMM was being overly tentative going backward, I easily had the last round in Manny’s favor.. Heck, blame Nacho—not the judges. Fact is, Ncaho made a terrible strategic mistake by not advising JMM to close the show.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
RINGSIDE
Most of the scribes at ringside had Marquez winning 115-113. Some of the Phillipine media had thought Pac lost or managed a draw. That myopic judge 116-112, does he work for Arum? Now people are claiming “overtraining” for Pac’s less than stellar outing.
That’s a lame excuse for professionals to make. I do believe Manny must scale back his extracurriculars if he wants to box a few more years at a top level. He should take the win and move on to an opponent more suited to his style . A rematch with Marquez would be more of the same and age is working against Marquez now.
Harold Lederman was always considered a fine judge back in the day. Oh sure, he misses some like Maurice Harris vs, Larry Holmes,
but for the most part he has always been high;y respected in the boxing community. I’m biased because he is a close peronal friend, but by the same token, I think the attacks should be directed on the notion of what Ring Generalship is rather than directed toward Harold.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Excellent Post
Couldn’t agree more. I’ve always been somewhat put off by Harold’s oversimplified attitude to the main facets of scoring a fight. What disturbs me more is that fact that many official judges seem to share Harold’s attitude.
These statistics quantify exactly what many of us saw on Saturday – a fight where Marquez dictated the tempo and controlled the action in the ring.
How does a guy do that backing up? Judges usually have a difficult time giving counter punchers rounds for ring general ship. A prime Toney was an exception because he would lure his opponent into the ropes and then pepper away with counters. But he was an exception.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I think this is Oli’s answer:
Fights which occur at Pacquiao’s speed see him throwing upwards of 950 punches. On Saturday night, he was limited to 560 over the entire fight.
Marquez made Manny think twice about going in there and throwing punches in bunches because every time he would do that, he would get countered. Marquez made Manny fight HIS fight. That’s how.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
Though I do see the point and get it. Look, it was ultra close. No argument,
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
But Pac did throw morethan JMM, did he not?
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Taken from the Compubox website, I’d like to cite these statistics: “Since meeting Marquez (in 2008), Pacquiao averaged 79.2 punches per round, of which he landed 34 percent. That percentage was a mixed bag, for while his jab remains inaccurate (4.0 of 30.9, 13.1 percent), his power punching more than made up for it (22.9 of 48.3, 47.5 percent).” Fights which occur at Pacquiao’s speed see him throwing upwards of 950 punches. On Saturday night, he was limited to 560 over the entire fight.
But waht about Marquez’s output?
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Well I think a counter puncher, by nature, will go with what he’s given… so he was given less opportunities to counter punch… But he was given less opportunities precisely because he made such good use of the ones he did get. I guess we can go in circles with this, but I think what happened here is that a style of fighting is privileged over another. There’s an inherent bias if we think that going forward is a better way of fighting than counter punching. And that means that we’re not appreciating the counter punching style just because we have this bias that going back is bad, when it’s perfectly acceptable and it’s perfectly effective, so much so that it controls the pace of a fight.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
Yes that's an excellent point and I tend to agree with it. I do think it's an
inherent bais.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Sorry, I guess my point is that he had already answered in the article.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
Everything slowed down in this one compared to the firrst two. This was a far more
tactical fight.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
To be honest, the periods in all fights where Marquez won rounds were when he slowed the pace. If you check out the first fight, Pacquiao’s punch output drops dramatically as the fight goes on, from totally bombing on Marquez in the first to being reduced to an average of about 45 from round 4 onwards. Marquez generally averages out at 40-50 punches a round in most of his fights.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
I’ve been out so I couldn’t really, but yeah – that’s pretty much what I’ve said anyway!
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
My final post on this subject.
I agree that Lampley and Max were horrible with thir false hysteria and incredibly bad interviewing. I don’t much like Merchant but he is a far better interviewer than Max who looks lost.
But, I did think Steward made some good points that were not necessarily along the part line. He went after Nacho and questioned the wisdom of what he was doing. I liked that.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Oh, one more observation though it's off the subject. I do believe JMM's ring IQ is greater than that of Pac's, but
I’m no longer so sure of Nacho’s.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I know everyone is laying into Nacho
But Marquez has been dropped four times by Manny, usually due to his own carelessness. If he had gone out and said to him… we need a big round, he may very well gone looking for Manny, left himself open and getting nailed.
Also Nacho may well have thought JMM was way ahead by the last two rounds (Like me). Prehaps he thought Manny was going to come out throwing a lot more than what he did in the last two, and telling Marquez to be cautious would have been wonderful for him. Because Marquez would have been able to pick him off with more ease, thus winning the last two rounds (I had Marquez losing the last two, but winning 116 – 112)
by Sweet science on Nov 14, 2011 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
But you know what I don’t get though? Marquez and Nacho have said for years that they got jobbed two times before. If this is your mindset, how do you dare tell your fighter “this fight’s in the bag?” That seems really odd for the context. If Pac and Marquez had never fought before and there weren’t two close decisions in context, I could understand it, but in this context, I really don’t. I do, however, agree with the fact that Marquez didn’t want to get dropped because he probably knew that was the difference in the other fights.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
I think this was easier to score than the other fights IMO
I know they thought they got jobbed in the first two. But last night Manny really didn’t do much for me. And you shouldn’t let your fighter take a risk that would have been very reckless, because you expect the judges to do their jobs. I had Manny up by 6 come the last two rounds.
And also, Manny thrives on people coming to meet him in centre ring. To do that would be tactical suicide. His best bet was to keep on doing what he was doing IMO
by Sweet science on Nov 14, 2011 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
I agree, but what I meant is that Nacho shouldn’t have told him “you’re winning the fight”… just let him keep fighting the same fight he was, which was brilliant.
And by the way, I also agree that this was clearer for Marquez than the previous two. In fact, I had Manny winning # 2 by one point.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
"Harold Lederman dramatically over-simplified judging criteria on Saturday night as a means of justification for scoring this fight for Pacquiao"
Do you believe that Lederman normally avoids over-simplifying judging criteria? Can you point to other fights as examples where he judged differently than he did for this fight?
Saying that Lederman is biased towards specifically Pacquiao is different from saying that Lederman has personal biases that favor someone with Pacquiao’s style.
Sorry, that sentence wasn’t directed as a means of saying that Lederman is personally biased towards Pacquiao, just that on Saturday night, for whatever reason (company line, bias, bad judging), he basically got the criteria by which he should have been judging the fight wrong.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
Good read Oli.
Nice one. I thought Marquez’s counterpunching was really impressive, he clearly stopped Manny in his tracks on, from memory, several occasions during the fight. They were stiff jolting punches too. That’s effective aggression, is it not ?
Yep, that’s my point. Cheers Phill.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
Marquez was always moving backward's and Manny did not know how to deal with it
He was leaning in with his punches and getting punished. There was nothing effective about his coming forward IMO. He was… just moving forward
Manny threw more punches, (Aggression) but Marquez made him miss, so how does that aggression become effective, especially when he was getting nailed by the right hand. Marquez’s counter punching, in turn scores points for aggresiveness, and because he landed, it sure was effective.
I said this in Scott’s post earlier…. I will C&P
if you look at JMM’s fights with Diaz and Katsidis, they were effective, because they wasn’t afraid of taking punches to land their own and get to the inside, trapping JMM on the ropes. They gave JMM a lot more trouble than Manny could dream of doing Saturday night
Manny didn’t control the pace of the fight. He didn’t bully Marquez, forcing him against the ropes where he could have opened up. And he doesn’t have the skill set of Floyd where he could just pick him off. He fought JMM’s fight (Ring generalship)
And defence – That obviously went too Manny, because Marquez looked busted up…..
And defence – That obviously went too Manny, because Marquez looked busted up…..
Taken directly from the Harold Lederman school of judging. Boom.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 14, 2011 5:19 PM EST up reply actions
I ussually don't mind Harold
But… where he got that from….. wow. Marquez made Manny miss far more than Manny made Marquez miss. Marquez used suttle but good head movement. And his backward movement meant Manny could not get close enough to land his own shots, and for me, that was good defense too
by Sweet science on Nov 14, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
There is a reason they were made boxing judges.
And i am not only referring to Harold but also the other three judges. Now, plainly tell how could 4 judges with a lot of experiences and knowledge on their trade are wrong as being pointed out by the journalist.
All these are subjective interpretations. Amongst people that also know a lot about boxing, Marquez was clearly favoured: http://ringtv.craveonline.com/blog/170145-experts
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
And, BTW, if you still think judges are infallible, I suggest you watch Williams vs. Lara.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
The judges on William vs Lara were suspended. Do you honestly believe that the the judges who scored this fight are to going to be suspended? Comparing the two is stupid.
by Bodj Parras on Nov 14, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously, in a sport where we see countless judging disasters, I’m not going to listen to anyone telling me not to cast doubt or disagree with judges because they had experience. Just… No.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 15, 2011 4:15 AM EST via mobile up reply actions

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