Pacquiao vs Marquez: Little Observations and Notes
by Waldo Rastel on Nov 14, 2011 10:30 PM EST
in Boxing Commentary & Opinion
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When I sat down to watch this fight again, I thought I was going to score it for Manny Pacquiao. He does the things I like to see as a judge. He backs the other guy up, he comes in with combinations, and he lands his punches with force. Each of these attributes is a considerable factor that I put towards winning rounds and subsequently winning fights. Originally, I had this fight for Juan Manuel Marquez by a pretty wide margin, but it was my birthday and I had a bunch of people over so maybe that swayed my decision.
My first observation is that Manny Pacquiao's jab is absolutely terrible in this fight. He is using it to judge distance and it is evident that there is no power behind this punch. It is simply a pawing jab and when it lands, it doesn't make an impact at all. If Manny would have landed a thousand of these jabs, I would still have him losing the fight because these punches are nowhere near effective.
The body language from Manny is actually terrible. This may be one of the first times that I have seen Manny visibly frustrated in the ring. Several times Manny threw his hands down and gave a big sigh. Not good.
Marquez's footwork is negating Manny's left hand and general aggressive nature. This is an extremely subtle point that the judges may have overlooked. Pacquiao is not backing up Marquez, but Marquez is avoiding Pacquiao's punches by moving back. Marquez is moving back to create a punching opportunity after Manny jumps in with his punches. Pacquiao's power is not forcing Marquez back, in fact this may have only happened once or twice in the fight. In fact the opposite happened far more frequently. Marquez's counter shots forced Manny to back up in order to avoid getting hit in the face/body.
Marquez's shots thudded while Manny's shots tapped. I'm not sure if this is evident on the HBO broadcast, but it is on the Primetime broadcast with Amir Khan announcing. If you have only watched the HBO feed, I would suggest seeking out this one, it's not hard to find. Whenever Marquez lands a punch it has a solid sound to it. It sounds like the punches not only hurt but are devastating. Based on the sound of Pacquiao's punches coupled with the reaction given by Marquez, they don't seem so powerful. Hard to tell if this is true, but the eyes and ears certainly point toward Marquez as having the more effective punching.
Tremendous body work by Marquez, especially the short left hook to the body. It was an extremely effective punch, one that Pacquiao seemed to wince at in more than one instance. Also this punch set up a beautiful straight right, which made Manny's head snap back. Marquez also used the right hook to the body to land solid shots on Manny. Judges always seem to discount body work as opposed to shots to the head and I have no idea why. In this fight Marquez was landing bombs to the body, and if the judges didn't see that they need to get their eyes checked.
Finally, even Roach thought that Manny was losing the fight just after midway through the fight. After the 7th round, Roach clearly says to Manny "Pick it up, we are falling behind." He can grandstand as much as he wants after the fight on twitter, but he thought Manny was losing the fight. Was Freddie just trying to motivate his fighter? You think Manny needs to be told to pick it up?
In the end, what was the reason Pacquiao/Marquez won the fight? Body work, ring generalship, and solid punches sealed the deal for me. However it was a close decision in my book with Marquez pulling out a 115-113 decision after taking the final two rounds. What observations changed the outcome of the fight in your mind?
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You encapsulated it pretty much perfectly (though I had it 116-112 for Marquez). Manny didn’t hurt Marquez once in 12 rounds. And he also never frustrated Marquez. On the flip side, while I can’t say that Manny was “hurt”, he was visibly frustrated and unsure what to do. And I agree with you about the Primetime stream. It’s what I watched on Saturday night and while a valid point can be made that watching the British stream would cause one to side with Marquez (just as the HBO stream would do the opposite) I honestly think it was more objective. No fighter has more reason to make excuses for Manny than Amir Khan, and Khan was pretty damn clear that he thought Manny lost the fight. And if body language tells us anything, Manny and Roach were pretty honest too, at least til they had to explain why they won.
Very good analysis, I saw it almost the same way you did, although I had it 116-112. The thing that most suprised me about the fight was Manny’s completely negative body language through most of the fight, he looked absolutely frustrated, like he had no clue what to do to get Marquez of his game, there was not a single smile or a calm look during the breaks like he usally has when he is coasting to victory and everything is going according to plan. That is why I can’t understand those who say that Manny had better ring generalship than Marquez (like Lederman did), because at least to me, having ring generalship means making the other fighter fight your fight, controlling the fight, and the fighter who is in control and feels in control is the fighter who is relaxed and calm, not the one who looks to the skies like pleading for help with a lost look as soon as he sits down every break. Same thing with Roach, he sounded worried most of the time, aware that things were not going according to plan, and in addition to the comment you refer to about picking up the pace, before the 12th he told Manny to put Marquez down.
Yes
that remark by Roach to “put Manny down” bore an unfortunate resemblance to the ever popular “you need a knockout to win” so favored by the coaches of fighters losing badly. I was kind of shocked he said it out loud.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Yeah I’m working on something with this for the morning, actually.
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by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 1:12 AM EST up reply actions
It happens very often between southpaw and conventional fighters, it is funny reading all the mindless pacman fanboy comments there, when you know they have never seen more than a handful of fights each year that doesn’t include Pacquicao.
"Boxing is dirty," said Casamayor. " The day I’m not ready to be a dirty fighter is the day I don’t fight anymore because it will mean that I have no heart for it anymore."
by Zocalo on Nov 15, 2011 1:21 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Manny has an ugly jab because he’s always looking to turn it into a short right hook. He paws it out, squares up his body, and loads up his left at waist level. It’s an invitation to brawl, but Marquez is way too smart to take the bait.
It’s interesting because I feel like Manny’s ugly jab is actually a fairly recent development. I can’t be sure about this without reviewing a couple fights, but Pacquiao had a solid fast jab when all he led with was the double jab cross. Now he leads with the short right instead. So I definitely disagree that Marquez could’ve taken that shot all night because Pacquiao’s gotten some pretty solid knockdowns with that right hook.
It’s also interesting how the same body language can be interpreted in totally different ways. I factually disagree with you about Manny’s jab/hook, but as far as him dropping his hands, in my opinion, he was dropping his hands to show the crowd that he could leave his hands down for several seconds at a time and Marquez wasn’t gonna do nothing.
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