Pacquiao vs Marquez Was Biggest Robbery Ever According to Nacho Beristain
Well, alright -- now we're here. After three days of mostly healthy debate and many feeling that Juan Manuel Marquez deserved the win on Saturday night, his trainer Nacho Beristain has gone ahead and made a ridiculous enough statement that their side is coming off whiny now. From Notifight.com, via BoxingScene.com:
"In the 52 years that I've been in boxing, I've never seen a robbery like this. The three judges who issued the results are unworthy of being in this sport. We are studying the possibility that through our lawyers we are going to file a complaint with the court against the three judges, with the intention that they be separated from boxing for life. And also to explore the possibility that the same court could overturn the result. I think there is enough evidence to win the case."
This is absurd. It's not even the worst robbery in the last five months, let alone 52 years. This sort of dramatic, easily dismissed statement is the kind of thing that has gotten Marquez and Beristain a bad rap in the past among some who may admire Marquez's ability, skill, and toughness, and Beristain's knowledge, but hear them go on about these things and lose some respect along the way.
Has Nacho hit that level again for you? Does this statement make you lose a little sympathy for Team Marquez?
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Everyone who uses the “r” word about this fight should be sentenced to watching Williams-Lara on an endless loop for a month before posting privileges are restored.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Nov 15, 2011 7:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Matthysse only won 4 of 10 rounds clearly; I believe those dismissing Pacquiao-Marquez as a robbery on the basis that Marquez did not clearly win 6 or more rounds have to dismiss that fight as a robbery as well. Of course, while the robbery word gets thrown around too often, I don’t really believe that a fight with more swing than clear rounds can never be a robbery and I don’t have a problem with anyone labeling both fights in that manner.
I voted no, but only because I haven't lost sympathy.
I think Marquez deserved the nod, so I can understand complaints. I’m not going to say it’s the biggest robbery of all time (or even a robbery) but I haven’t lost sympathy as such, I just think Nacho’s being a bit of a tit. At the end of the day, the guy who fought in the ring is who I sympathise with. I’m not too interested what Nacho has to say, other than analysing a fight, really.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 15, 2011 5:27 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I pretty much feel this way too, although I’m not going to ever complain about a trainer or a fighter saying seemingly outlandish things in the aftermath of a perceived ripoff. Fans say more ridiculous things all the time; why would I lose disrespect for the people who make their living off the sport for being emotionally invested in it, especially in the immediate aftermath of a fight?
by bachwards on Nov 15, 2011 6:04 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, I agree with you. I think Nacho’s wrong, but you’re right it’s his right to say whatever the fuck he wants!
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 16, 2011 3:51 AM EST up reply actions
Nacho Beristain is right!!!
Marquez got robbed out of the $10 million he was guaranteed to win the fight. Name me a robbery bigger than that!
by theninthlayer on Nov 15, 2011 5:27 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
ooooh
If you put it that way, that is a fine point.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions
Well it may not be 10 mil
since he will get a hefty chunk in fight #4. But I’d believe 3 mil or so.
by journeyintosound on Nov 15, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
true that
We always think about what happened in the ring and our score vs the judges ect, but yeah he was supposed to make a whole lot more money if he’d of won…
http://fistonchin.com http://brightlightssports.com
it really
depends on which side of the border you are talking from. For mexican this has been a robbery and will stay a robbery forever because the emotional investment was huge. The word is everywhere, in TV, newspapers, tabloids, twitter, facebook. Do this same question here and you will sweep by 100%. Do it elsewhere and you will begin to have more temperate results.
This country needs good news desperately and this was supossed to be one. Im serious.
two straight fine points. See, we heard very little up here about the emotional investment in Mexico. Actually, the only articles I happened to read (American articles) about Marquez’s relationship to Mexican fans focused on how he never became a huge star in his home country.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
my point is that according to the last numbers, 40 millions of people watched this fight via TV Azteca. This is the most watched fight ever in Mexico. Its rating was between 31 and 36 points, a third of the population.
That’s why Top Rank signed inmediatley a new contract with TV Azteca/Zanfer for 5 more years.
by Hermano Cerdo on Nov 15, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
sorry
i forgot to attached my source: http://www.record.com.mx/tmf/2011-11-14/marquez-pacquiao-iii-impuso-record-de-rating
by Hermano Cerdo on Nov 15, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
All excellent and well informed points
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
meh.
it was a draw or SD for pacquiao.
it was marquez’s: cleaner punching, counters & defense vs. pacquiao’s: aggression, power punches landed and ring generalship.
if you looks at it that way it was a draw. only reason why i’d give an SD to pacquiao is cause of how marquez coasted in the last two rounds. marquez HAD the fight, but if you’re fighting the champion, take it from him.
You don’t give someone a split decision.
if you’re fighting the champion, take it from him.
The sooner this goes away the better. You don’t have to beat the Cardinals by five or more runs next year to get a win over them. Just the one will do.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 5:38 PM EST up reply actions
+1 on the take-it-from-him rule
"Boxing is like dealing with a ho"
-Bernard Hopkins
marquez knew a decision his way is unlikely against pacquiao. there’s no room to lay back and feel as if you’ve had the fight won, but he did. there’s no room for him to complain since he had the fight in the bag. the final two rounds determined the outcome
Agreed
You’d think that a fighter who thought he’d been so blatantly robbed the previous 2 fights wouldn’t have fought the last 2 rounds the way he did. Close the show.
by johnnyurrotten on Nov 15, 2011 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
Well then why bother fighting for a title if you’re not a big knockout puncher or an extremely dominant technician? Sure he’s good enough to beat Manny Pacquiao, but apparently not by enough points. In fact, let’s just not keep score anymore. If at the end of 12 rounds it’s obvious that the challenger didn’t completely dominate, then just forget it and send them back to the locker room. Champ wins, or more importantly, doesn’t lose by enough!
Look, I agree that fighters should be pushed to fight this way since the idiotic idea is so ingrained in the minds of so many people, but it’s an idea that doesn’t really make actual sense. It’s just something boxing people say so it’s gone along with, but I can’t find anyone who can explain WHY that’s the standard, or why it’s a good idea. I never have. It’s because it’s nothing more than “the way it’s always been.” Well the way it’s been was wrong then and is wrong now and will be wrong tomorrow. Furthermore, it’s convenient to go with this “champion” crap and then later dismiss the belts today as watered-down and meaningless. Which is it? Is every guy with a belt the champion who needs to be thoroughly trounced, or do the belts mean nothing? Does the WBC Youth super featherweight champ have to lose 9 rounds to 3 or better or get knocked out, or is it conceivable that he loses a 7-5 fight and thus his championship?
And this stuff about the final two rounds is nice and all, but only one of the judges gave both of them to Pacquiao. Glenn Trowbridge gave the 12th to Marquez and thus did not score the fight a totally ridiculous 117-111 for Pacquiao. What about the rest of the rounds? Aw close the show close the show. If Hoyle had gone 1/2 for Marquez in the final two — as the other judges did — we would have had another split decision, with Marquez winning 115-113 on his card, and Pacquiao 115-113/116-112 on the other two. If he had won the final two rounds on every card — which let’s be honest, with Trowbridge’s card was not happening — he’d have won 116-112 for Hoyle, he would have had a 114-114 draw on Moretti’s card, and Trowbridge still would have had it 115-113 for Pacquiao. So it would have been a draw. Believe it or not, the other 10 rounds were pretty important.
And you still haven’t addressed your idea that you would “give a split decision to Pacquiao” — so you believe one of the judges should have scored it for Marquez, but two should have scored it for Pacquiao.
Also please explain to me Pacquiao’s ring generalship, because if it’s the Harold Lederman explanation that ring generalship happens when Manny Pacquiao steps to the side occasionally, that’s a little iffy.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Look, up here in Carroll County, NH, you often see a bumper sticker that says, “It takes corage to be a Democrat in Carroll County.” Wel lmaybe there should be one that says “it takes courage to be A Pac Man fan on BLH.”
Nacho made a terrible strategic mistake in that fight and got what he deserved IMHO.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
this fight isn’t about Nacho. It’s about Marquez and Manny. Freddy also told Manny he needed a knockout, but obviously that wasn’t the case.
Wrong. It's also about Nacho and Freddie
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Well then every fight is about the men in the corner is it not?
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 6:41 PM EST up reply actions
I said "also" and I am talking about THIS fight and I don't much appreciate the
piling on (some call it gangbanging). What am I supposed to do, concede or agree because I fear getting slammed by posts. F—k that. I have an opinon and will express it whether you like it or not as long as it is thought out and civil.,
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
The trainers of late get/take a lot of spotlight, too much, imo. Their interest is essentially vicarious. The fight belongssolely to the fighters imo. They’re the ones all puffed up, bruised, concussed, and covered with blood.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
I think that’s a little extreme, though sadly it seems the impact of trainers has mostly been for what they’ve failed to do, rather than what they have (i.e. not stopping fights, whatever the hell was going on in Berto’s corner vs. Ortiz, etc.)
by The Boxer Rebellion on Nov 15, 2011 6:59 PM EST up reply actions
whatever the hell was going on in Berto’s corner vs. Ortiz
BE AN ASSASSIN
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions
I forgot that one. Jesus.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Nov 15, 2011 7:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think in Roach’s case, he takes the spotlight so that Manny can do his work.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
I have no problem thinking Pacquiao won. But the final two rounds did not change the fight from a Marquez win to a Pacquiao win. Without a knockdown, Marquez could have done no better than a draw had he won both rounds on every single judge’s card.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Half of me completely agrees with you the other half is staring at my scorecard where I have the fight even after 10 rounds.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Nov 15, 2011 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
Well your scorecard and mine don’t count.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
mAX WROTE AN ARTICLE ON THAT SUBJECT YEARS AGO, BUT i CAN'T FIND IT. HE FAVORS
THE NOTION.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
And yet he dismisses title belts. Are we now going to try to establish which “champions” are worthy of the “rule” and which are not? Is Manny Pacquiao worthy but Julio Cesar Chavez Jr doesn’t need to “have it taken from him” since we all agree he’s not the same level of fighter? They both hold a major sanctioning body belt.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Damn it, I'm not saying it's. What I am saying is that it is out there because
the American powers that be don’t want draws in championship fights. They also don’t want even rounds scored for thew same reason.
It might not be right, but it is som,ething that judges think about and also it is something that trainers think about when they send their charges into the final round of a close title fight.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
OK, we agree here completely, actually, and I’ve said that a few times now (including up above). The fighters do have to have it in mind, because it is the way it is. I have the luxury of challenging it in conversation with all of you, but they don’t have that luxury of challenging it in the ring. Until it actually goes away, they have to fight with the “rule” in mind. We’re on the same page there.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 6:40 PM EST up reply actions
Also please explain to me Pacquiao’s ring generalship
Well he did do a good job of lunging after his punches and missing everything. Pacquiao was throwing out a jab quite frequently, even though it was completely feeble. He was moving “forward” I guess, more like following Marquez but whatever.
"The bell that tolls for all in boxing belongs to a cash register."
-Bob Verdi
by Waldo Rastel on Nov 15, 2011 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
close the show
2 out of 3 judges gave manny the last 3 rounds of the fight. From where i was sitting it seemed that Manny was completely outworking JMM those last 3 rounds. Now I don’t know if JMM slowed down those last 3 rounds because he’s 38 and grew tired or because he thought he was winning the fight handily and cruised a little bit. My point is that either way that fight was close and in know way should JMM have thought he was winning by that large of margin. Its ridiculous. My point to close the show isn’t that I think that JMM needed to knock out Manny its because the fight was that close and he needed to keep his foot on the pedal to actually have a chance to win. ESPECIALLY, when its a fighter who thought he got robbed the previous 2 times.
by johnnyurrotten on Nov 15, 2011 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
This is quite hyperbolic to me. Marquez looked nothing like Oscar against Tito and Manny looked nothing like Oscar against Ike in the championship rounds. I still saw him landing clean counters, and even if you did give Pacquiao those rounds (I did not) none were anywhere as decisive for Pacquiao as the 5th and 7th were for Marquez. Further, have you considered that Marquez fighting heavier than he ever has in his life may have slowed down because of the weight? It just seems way too simplistic to turn this into a narrative of “Marquez took his foot off the gas,” and as Scott notes above, he was apparently already doomed by the scoring of the earlier rounds on the official cards.
Replay
I can’t wait to see the replay on Saturday. I was at the fight so obviously I didn’t get to see the fight the way it looked on TV. My friend called me saying the 116-112 score was absolutely ridiculous but I actually told him that I could see a judge going either way with that score, thats how close it seemed. That rounds could have easily went either way thats why all of this ROBBERY talk bewilders me. I don’t think either way that the fight was that decisive.
by johnnyurrotten on Nov 15, 2011 7:43 PM EST up reply actions
all of this ROBBERY talk bewilders me.
Well we’re on the same page there.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
+1
For being at the fight and not seeing it as anything other than too close to call.
If I were to score according to crowd noise however, it would have been an almost unanimous Marquez victory.
Then again, the crowd was filled with a great crowd of most Mexicans … and damn were they made.
"Silence is golden when you can't think of a good answer"
---- Muhammed Ali
2 out of 3 judges gave manny the last 3 rounds of the fight.
Robert Hoyle: 10th to Marquez, 11th to Pacquiao, 12th to Pacquiao
Glenn Trowbridge: 10th to Pacquiao, 11th to Pacquiao, 12th to Marquez
Dave Moretti: 10th to Pacquiao, 11th to Marquez, 12th to Pacquiao
Nobody had Pacquiao sweeping the last three rounds of the fight. Unless you meant 2 of 3 judges gave Manny 2 of 3 rounds, which is also wrong, since all of them gave Manny 2 out of the 3.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 8:02 PM EST up reply actions
2 of the 3 judges gave PAC the 12th round
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
If all three of them gave Marquez the 12th, the scores would have been 115-113 Marquez (Hoyle), 114-114 (Moretti), 115-113 Pacquiao (Trowbridge). JMM would leave with a draw and be no less upset.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
actually, still 116-112 Pacquiao (Trowbridge) — my mistake.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
But Nacho didn't know this and if JMM could have decked Manny, then what happens to the scoring?
10-8,10-8. 10-8
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Is this correct?
116-112, 115-113, 113-115 SD for Marquez
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
If it had been 10-8 Marquez in the 12th across the board, he would have won 115-112 on Hoyle’s card, lost 115-112 on Trowbridge’s card, and won 114-113 on Moretti’s card. So he would have won a split decision. But I still feel it would have been horrible advice to send him out there going crazy in the 12th round. Pacquiao has knocked him down four times and he’s knocked Pacquiao down zero times. The odds would not have been in his favor, and all he would have been doing is giving Manny the looks that Manny wanted and couldn’t get for 11 rounds.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
JMM wasn’t going to deck him. The only thing getting reckless would have done is open up Marquez to get decked. It would be inadvisable, IMO, to tell him to go try to knock Manny down or out. That wasn’t their game plan and that wasn’t the matchup for them. It wasn’t Katsidis or Diaz, you know? It was still Manny Pacquiao, who hasn’t been stopped in 12 years, or ever beyond the flyweight division.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
It would have opened him up to the big left
And that would have undone all the hard work he had done in making it into a non factor (as much as he possibly could do)
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
Especially given the fact that everyone for 8 years has been saying that all he needed to do was stay off the canvas.
And with JMM being a small lightweight
and Manny being a freak of nature at WW
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
small???????????????? He looked massive in there.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Taht's allfor me. I have to defend myself on another site
where they are coming at me ith pitchforks and rope.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I’ve read through here and it doesn’t seem that bad. Unless Scott is calling your home and leaving angry messages or something…
http://fistonchin.com http://brightlightssports.com
Not here. Other site.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
What was everyone saying before the fight though?
Hindsight is a wonderful thing
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions
Thats what i thought
I was surprised to see that Marquez looked the bigger of the two which he did IMO. Makes me second guess how much of a chance I think Manny would have against Floyd. Floyd made Marquez look small I think it would be difficult for Manny against Floyd.
by johnnyurrotten on Nov 15, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions
All-time great post.
"Occasionally, there is a boxing match that, in its demonstration of skill, courage, intelligence, hope, seems to redeem the sport - almost. Perhaps boxing has always been a sport in crisis, a sport of crisis."
by Oli Goldstein on Nov 15, 2011 7:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Manny's Ring generalship. I don't think so
Marquez schooled him in ring general ship
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
Most casual fans, and often judges
Don’t understand fight rhythm. You can control the ring going backwards if you are controlling the pace of the fight.
by younggunzvt on Nov 15, 2011 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
Marquez totally dominated and dictated the pace of the fight. And for someone who was backing up, he stayed well away from the ropes and corners. If he had got stuck on the ropes, im sure Manny’s aggression would then have been effective.
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 6:45 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t buy into “you have to take it from the champion”—if the guy wins, he wins.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
by BoxAnne on Nov 15, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
+1
It is just a way of defending bad scorecards
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
I think the simpler point, rather than the old “YOU HAVE TO TAKE THE BELT FROM THE CHAMP” routine, is that Marquez and Nacho should have thought to themselves, “gee, the judging has been controversial in these fights in the past, and Manny is now an international phenomenon who is a monster favorite and therefore likely to get favorable judging, so we need to make this really, really clear.” It certainly isn’t fair, but it was the reality of the situation.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Nov 15, 2011 6:53 PM EST up reply actions
Of course, I still think Manny won, in a classic “the other guy looked better, but dammit, when I add up the scores from each round, he loses” type of fight.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Nov 15, 2011 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
That's precisely what Manny Steward said. He could not believe how naive Nacho was being
by not realizing that 100 million might have been riding on the outcome here.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Clearly win an athletic competition, and when the scorekeeper fucks up, it's your fault, you should have won by more
Go on an NFL or MLB blog and see how that contention goes over.
Nacho/JMM don’t need fixing. They conceived and executed a masterful fight plan. Shitty judging, whether because of corruption or incompetence, needs fixing.
Most people don't know shit about boxing. At all. Period. - Roger Mayweather
Show be tell. - Ann Wolfe
by The Kittitas Kid on Nov 15, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
if you’re fighting the champion, take it from him.
I vote that anyone who says this should be autobanned. Who’s with me?
To take the belt from the champ, you should win seven rounds to his five, or else have sufficient knockdowns to make up the difference in points with regards to the 10-Point-Must system.
Most people don't know shit about boxing. At all. Period. - Roger Mayweather
Show be tell. - Ann Wolfe
by The Kittitas Kid on Nov 15, 2011 7:51 PM EST up reply actions
Of course it is a hyperbolic statement, but how much frustration do you expect these guys to put up with without venting a little. If anything this fight feels alot less close now than it did on Saturday, the Manny camp cutting off talks with Floyd is simply more proof that they know Saturday night was a disaster.
I put no
because I’m not losing sympathy. I just think it the emotional investment the Marquez team put into this fight. This was their white whale and it slipped away again.
and by the way
I wasn’t meaning to say “you must lose sympathy for the Marquez side because of this,” and those of you who have not make strong points, and it’s a good discussion.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
JMM, though legendary, has been a whiner for some time and that's a fact.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I put yes because I have come to dislike Nacho in recent years. Oh, he should get credit for teaching Mexican fighters how to use technique combined with their inate warrior propensity. No doubt. But he has made some strange—no make that dumb—-decisions. He is a whiner personified.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Also, the routine he pulled on Marcos Maidana was absolute garbage.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Nov 15, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions
“Maidana won’t be trained by Beristain, says Marquez doesn’t want him training Marcos”
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Well what was worse was that Nacho said, “sure, Marcos, come on down to Mexico and train,” then when Marcos showed up, he basically told him to go away because JMM appeared to have a fit. I totally get that JMM wouldn’t want him to train Maidana if they might be future opponents, but maybe Nacho could have mentioned that prior to Maidana making arrangements to go to Mexico and planning his camp around that.
by The Boxer Rebellion on Nov 15, 2011 7:02 PM EST up reply actions
He simply is not the sharpest arrow in the quiver. What he did in that Chris John affair is
beyond comprehension.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I can’t vote in this poll. The statement IS ridiculous, but it doesn’t make me lose sympathy for Team Marquez.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
I voted anyway (No), and Oligold’s description of his own vote match mine, second post from the top.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
Thats the one I would have went for
But it fell just short of a robbery. And it certainly is not the worst scorecard of the 6 billion years or w,e Nacho wants us to believe
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah i should have included a second no option. That’s my mistake. There’s a no without it reading the way I phrased it in the one option. So I’m glad you guys are just voting no and explaining why else.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
After reading the countless articles, blogs, and comments people have written over the last couple of days since the fight, what I think has become very clear to me is that really all this debating about who won, whether it was robbery or it was not, is really a dabate about clarity, about standards, about perception, and in some degree a debate about empathy.
Everyone seems to have an idea of what the judging criteria should be, clean punching, effective agressiveness, effective defense, ring generalship, to name the ones most mentioned. Yet the problem is that how each person interprets each one of this is different, to make matters worse, each one of us gives different weighting factors or bias to each of this, so for some agressiveness may be more important than defense or vice-versa. If the problem were only with the fans or the media it would be one thing, but even the official judges carry this baggage, and Keith Kaizer of the NSAC said as much in an interview a day or two ago. To me this is really a problem of standards and perception and not necessarily bad judging on anyone’s part, when anyone can see whatever they want, and assess it in whatever way they want, then it is no surprise that results can be so controversial when a fight is close.
The next issue, clarity is a by product of the preivious. since we really don’t know how the official judges came to their decision, what was the criteria each one of them used?, how each one of them values each one of those criteria?, it’s anyone’s guess how they came to the decision. When someone calls something robbery I guess it is simply a leftover from boxing’s history of fixed fights, I think in reality what people say is it was an unjust or unfair decision, and with good reason, if based on your criteria fighter A should win, to hear that fighter B won will always appear as an unjust decision, but again, the problem is that everyone is judging things differently. If the judging scales are not only not the same across people, but also people don’t know what everyone else uses (particularly with regards to the official judges) no matter what arguments are used, agreement will never be reached. If the judges call a fight the same way you did in their score you assume they have the judging criteria you have, even if your round by round socres are different, but reality is that who knows what each of them saw. You assume the judge did a good or fair job because he came to the same or a similar conclusion as you did, but in reality you could have been assessing the fight in completely opposite ways, so that had you known that judge’s criteria you might be tempted to call the judge a putz.
The final issue that I’ve seen is a bit of lack of emphaty, and for this I don’t mean empathy between us fans, but to the fighters, the guys actually doing the training and getting hit for a living. We are quick to call a fighter whinny if he complains of a bad call, we use phrases like well it was a close fight or a close round that could have gone either way, he should just move on, or he still got paid for it. I guess as a fan I really have no problem with this comments and to a degree I agree, as a fan none of this comments really affects me, what happened in a fight really has no bearing to my personal life, as a fan I simply move on to next weekend’s fight and put things in my rear view mirror. But I don’t know I guess that post-fight interview of Marquez really made something snap inside me. Everything from the entire picture to everything he said and how he said it (and sorry but the english translation was awful), it was shocking to me, it was not the image of a defeated fighter but of a broken man. Here was a man who prior to the fight most people saw as another stepping stone in the path of boxing’s biggest star, who people saw as old, as too small, too slow, someone who would likely be blown out easily, someone who would be lucky to not get badly hurt given the damage Manny had done to bigger men like Margarito and Cotto, someone who according to Ariza would have no chance even if God himself stepped into the ring to give him a hand. Against all odds, he had the fight of his life yet he lost, whether it was fair or not depends on what I mentioned earlier, in his mind he clearly had done enough, and he honestly felt that the judges have him a bad deal again. To make an analogy, they told him he was crazy for even attempting to climb Mount Everest, yet when he did, they told him that was not really the top of the mountain. We can shrug it off, but what he said was that the judges can take away the entire work and sacrifice of a lifetime, and its not fair. Its not fair not because they necessarily did a bad job, but again, because who knows how they decided that. I’d never call anyone, Marquez or any other fighter a whinny if he felt he got a bad decision, because at the end ot the day that decision does affect him, it affects his legacy, his career, his future income, why should he just shut up about it. I mean I think most of us complain at the restaurant when they give us the wrong meal or the food is cold, or to the phone company if they overcharge us, and those are pretty inconsequential things from a lifetime point of view. We would all complain like mad if we felt unjustly treated at work. Staying on the topic, as a fan I understand the notion and saying that it was a close round, therefore it could have gone to either one, or won’t complain if one or the other gets it, or I’m happy with either one getting it. Thinking as a fighter I would see that as a punch in the face, not because the round or the fight were not really close, but because if a person says that either outcome would be fair, in essence what they are saying is let’s just flip a coin and whatever lands that’s the result and its still a good one. I know a lot of people don’t like draws but if you are saying that a round or a fight is so close that it can go to both then in a way what you are saying is that it should be a draw, therefore I think that’s what the call should be, it may not be what us fans want to hear, but I think it at leasst is fair in that it does not feel like a flip of a coin where one fighter simply happened to be the unlucky one.
All these long ramblings to mean that if boxing wantss to get rid of controversial decisions or at least minimize them, it should reform the way it judges fights. For example, instead of simply judging rounds 10-9 with three judges, why not have one judge for every criteria that boxing wants to judge, one for aggressiveness, one for clean punching, etc, and each judge gives a score to each fighter per round, plus added point s for knockouts. At the end, you can either add the points per round (if you want to keep things on who won more rounds), or add the pointss from all rounds at the very end, so that way there is a more clear way of how each fighter was rated on each category, and the fighters and the fans know what the criteria was and that it is always the same.
If you don’t want to go that far, then at the very least have the judges meet the fighters and trainer prior to the fight like the ref does to go over what things each one will focus on, so everyone knows what the refs are looking for. If for example all three judges liked fighters that come forward over precise counter punching Marquez had no chance of winning that fight no matter what he did, since his fight strategy was to fight that way, so eventhough he effectively forced Manny to fight his way he still lost. In addition like I said before, if a round is too close to call or you feel that it can go either way and it would be a fair call, then it should be called a draw.
Sorry for the long post, sometimes I get a bit carried away when I write. Those were my 2 cents (or 2 dollars based on the length)
by leo_solis on Nov 15, 2011 7:04 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Holy shit
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
by Boss Man on Nov 15, 2011 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
If you don’t want to go that far, then at the very least have the judges meet the fighters and trainer prior to the fight like the ref does to go over what things each one will focus on, so everyone knows what the refs are looking for. If for example all three judges liked fighters that come forward over precise counter punching Marquez had no chance of winning that fight no matter what he did, since his fight strategy was to fight that way, so eventhough he effectively forced Manny to fight his way he still lost. In addition like I said before, if a round is too close to call or you feel that it can go either way and it would be a fair call, then it should be called a draw.
The problem with having judges that tell you what you want. It will be easy to… appoint judges to certain fights. So what happens if the come forward fighter is facing a counter puncher and you get three judges who prefer a come forward style. We still have theproblem of the counterpuncher having to KO his opponent
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
you could essentially stack the cards in one fighters favour
Not only because it could become nigh on impossible to win on the cards. But because the “underdog” (for want of a better phrase) would have to adopt his style to either knock his opponent out, or nick rounds on the scorecards.
I like your thinking. Thinking of ways to eradicate this shit
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 7:25 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I know is not a perfect fix, which is why my first choice would be to have boxing first set a judging criteria in stone, meaning we are going to judge fights on x, y, z, and each criteria means this. Then for the actual fight have one judge dedicated to judge only that aspect of the fight. That way no matter the style of the fighter they know that everything is being looked at, and they know that the final outcome will spell aout how they did in each category, giving clarity to the results. As for the more intermediate imperfect fix of at least have the judges tell the fighters what they’ll look for, at least by knowing what the judge will look for, the fighter can adjust his trategy, so for example Marquez could have pressed forward more during the fight knowing that his original plan would not convince the judges. It could add another layer of strategy to fight. Again, this solution to me would be a more intermediate fix if boxing doesn’t want to ge rid of the current system.
But then as Bachwards says below
Clean punching will become equal to ring generalship. And then how do you score it. On a scale of one to ten? It gives too much leway and too much power to the judges. What qualifies a score of 10? Perfection. And how do you quantify that?
I don’t want to sound really negative to your proposals, because I like your lateral thinking and your motives for suggesting them. But they just won’t work. And I fear you will get much more “bad scorecards” than we do now.
Also, how would Scott score RBR?? His job is hard enough!
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
Lol, like I said to bachwards, it’s not about getting the perfect solution right away, it’s about at least initiating talks about possible solutions, although that first requires recognizing that something needs to be changed.
Something that I don’t know if it makes me cry or laugh about boxing is that it seem really dug in it is ways, both good and bad. Everything is always too hard or too complicated to change, even when there would appear that there is a need to change. The ironic thing is that when problems surface, think of the talks of PED’s, controversial decisions, extremely past their primes fighters still fighting just to get beat up, whether boxing is dying or not, every time that boxing gets bad press for one reason or another, everyone just wants to move on to the next fight, wishing people didn’t focus on the negative, yet without doing anything to make sure the source of the critique does not occur again. I wish that attitude would change. Reminds me of a capable man living on the street who complains when people tell him to get up and do something with his life and wishes they didn’t, yet says it is to complicated to do anything about it, so he’ll just stay put, since that is how things have always been.
My understanding is sports are all like that. I think it’s true of sports generally, even though I only know anything about this one. I think it’s because of the comfort ritual nature of sports for fans. Like when they changed the RC Mass from Latin to English, and a lot of people never got over it, even though they’d never understood a word of it. Like religious ritual, sports are elevating, exciting, but they’re also very soothing, consistent, predictable in some ways not related to outcome of the event. When you mess with that, it shakes people up.
There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else--James Thurber, 1939
The paragrapgh on Empathy
Is some pretty thought provoking shit….
And I think you are pretty spot on too!
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 7:22 PM EST up reply actions
I greatly enjoyed reading your reflections, but I’m not sure I agree with your proposed solutions. I believe the general standard is that clean effective punching always trumps the other three criterion, so disaggregating who scores what does not seem particularly sensible to me. Likewise, I’m not sure judges themselves are often aware of their own preferences, and even if they were, would a pre-fight discussion really make Marquez feel any better about that outcome? Beyond that, as Sweet science notes, it just opens up the door for promoters/commissions to cherrypick judges even more than they likely do now. I do agree that there needs to be more of a willingness to score even rounds, but that’s frowned upon in the States at least.
I’ve kind of come to the view that it’s impossible to remove the subjective out of boxing scoring. It makes it frustrating for fans and fighters and it regularly leads to charges of incompetence or corruption, but I don’t know what alternatives are better. Some have proposed simply counting punches for a more “objective” procedure for scoring, but that’s an absolutely terrible idea in my opinion. The last thing professional boxing needs is to turn into its amateur sibling, and we’ll still be left with endlessly debates about what does and does not count as a punch. Not to mention that such a system does not allow for any real assessment for the quality of punches (as I’ve been wanting to scream at all those mindlessly citing CompuBox numbers in the aftermath of this or any other controversial fight).
I’ve kind of come to the view that it’s impossible to remove the subjective out of boxing scoring.
I think the only way is that judges are held to account for their scorecards. Appoint someone to each commision to get judges to go over all of the “bad scorecards” Someone who cares about boxing
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 7:28 PM EST up reply actions
That should happen for sure, but what is a bad scorecard? Again I think things first need to be standarized some way, so that then when cards are evaluated, cards and the judges that are outside the standard can be questioned about who and why they judged that way. Like I said two judges could have the same score or very similar scores even if they judged things completely different, so I think that step of amking sure they all judge things the same way must first be taken.
Again I think things first need to be standarized some way, so that then when cards are evaluated, cards and the judges that are outside the standard can be questioned about who and why they judged that way
But then, how do you standadize it to allow different styles to be equally effective?
If you standardize how to score effective punching. That will go along way imo
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 8:06 PM EST up reply actions
That is correct
I believe the general standard is that clean effective punching always trumps the other three criterion,
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I believe the general standard is that clean effective punching always trumps the other three criterion, so disaggregating who scores what does not seem particularly sensible to me.
That’s the thing, is that really the case? And for one, what is clean effective punching? Again from what I’ve gathered everyone sees it a bit different. Here is the interview of Kizer I talked about, where apparently some judges might even consider blocked shots in favor of the fighter throwing the shot just because blocked shots might still hurt, to me that’s nuts.
http://www.boxingscene.com/nsacs-kizer-on-marquezs-drink-thoughts-on-judging—46022
Everyone internally disagregates the scores in some way, puts everything together and then comes up with a score, so why not give the scores that way? In the end I don’t pretend to have the proper answer, but I do think things need to change, and simply saying things are hard to change, or there is no perfect solution, or it’s always been this way is a sure way for things to never change. I guess it is do to my line of work that I always think that anything is possible, that no problem is too big, no problem is too complicated, and that no idea is too crazy, if the first one does not work, fine, come up with a second one, if that fails, try again, and on and on. Every iteratrion is a learing experience and gets you one step closer to the answer.
What if after each round the judges announced what they scored the round?
http://fistonchin.com http://brightlightssports.com
no
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
it was not the image of a defeated fighter but of a broken man.
Huh, I thought it was a guy using his sombrero to cover his crotch (which was his way of saying FU to the judges). I also thought it was the image of a guy who had just earned 5-7 million dollars and who is now positioned to earn even more. Broken man? Pulleeeeeeezzze.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Make no mistake, JMM is a smart businessman and after all is said and doine, Boxing is mostly a business.
Even Nacho’s whine above is designed to hype.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
you're tough on this guy
Some people I still think fight for the love. Not saying the money isn’t a factor, but he would have fought Manny again if he wasn’t the superstar he is.
Im pretty sure
He would sacrafice all the money in the world to have a win against Manny. To not have one when he should have (in many people’s opinion, least of all his own) would bleaves his mouth a little sour I would imagine.
Boxing has been his life. To not have a win over his greatest rival on his record will pain him no end
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
Do you have any sense of how wealthy JMM is? And btw, Manny is a major reason for that.
I’m not tough on him, but I am realistic when it comes to boxing. It is a business. It’s all about making money. That’s my perspective and I shall never change on that. It’s a business and a brutal one at that.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
That’s my perspective and I shall never change on that
Not just yours, but also many others. But still, I think JMM would give away everything he earnt in this fight to have the judges score it differently
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 8:03 PM EST up reply actions
Give away milliions? Come on SS. lay off the Stout
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
You already said that JMM is a wealthy man
Im sure he would
Not everyebody see’s money as religion is what im saying
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 8:08 PM EST up reply actions
He would sacrafice all the money in the world
No he would not
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Massive exageration
But the point stands :)
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
If JMM was penniless before
Then I would say you have a point.
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
But you said he would have to give up ALL of his money.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Lets go back to your original statement
You said that he was not a broken man because he stands to make stupid amounts of money.
I can’t possibly imagine JMM thinking in that press conference, I should have won the fight, but hey! Im nigh on 10 Mil richer!!!
He isn’t David Haye…. This loss will stay with him a very long time, especially if he doesn’t get a fair crack at the whip
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 8:16 PM EST up reply actions
He was NOT a broken man. He had just fought a great fight against all odds.
His demeaner to me was not that of a broken man but rather of one who looked pretty disgusted and who had to listen to a terribel interviewer ask stupid questions. The hat over the crotch may have told the entire story of the message he was trying to give certian people. But BROKEN, you gotta be kidding. Lara was broken. Agabeko was broken. Tiberi was broken.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I’ll add a couple things:
1. I agree that he didn’t give off a “broken man” vibe to me. If anything, he was defiant, and boldly so — he believed he was right, that he’d won, and he was proud of himself. Disgusted, yes, and righteously angry, but not broken.
2. The sombrero-over-crotch interview was without question the most badass interview I’ve ever seen. A clear sign of not giving a fuck about the standards. If HBO had to interview him, he was doing it naked with a hat on his junk.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 8:26 PM EST up reply actions
I guess it may be a matter of semantics, to me a broken man is a powerless man, a man that feels that he has no power to change or affect the outcome of his work no matter what he does. That how Marquez looked to me in his demeanor and with his words, yes there was disgust, but the overall sense that I got is that he truly felt that there was no way for him to win, that he was powerless.
Not everyone does what they do for the money. For some it is more about pride, about recognition, about simple joy about doing something you like and get the recognition for it. Marquez still lives in Mexico City and has managed very well his money though out his career, with what he made from fighting Floyd he’d never have to work a single day and could more than live like a king and leave a fortune to his family with that amount in Mexico.
I know that, but once you get a taste. you want more and more and more.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
Not everyone, a professor here in the faculty literally left millions on the table (granted he had already pocketed a couple) to go back and work as a researcher for basically nothing (comparatively speaking) because that is what he loved to do, instead of becoming more of a businessman making millions a year.
Boxing is subjective and scoring is subjective.Attempts to quantify it have not been all that effective. Compubox sucks to the base IMO.
My take on judging is that whenever there is a questionable scoreing, those responsible should have a sit down with the commission and justify their scores. This is a Teddy Atlas remedy by the way. Then, if a particular score (Lara-Williams, for example) is egregious, that judge needs to be weeded out. In this manner, the cream will rise to the top. Guys like Weisfeld, Feldman, Ritter, Roth, Procopio and others will rule while the bad ones leave the scene.
"Luck is when preparation meets opportunity." - Mike Quarry
I think we are talking two different things here, what you mention certainly works for egregious black and white type of situations, I’m talking more about the problem of the gray area type of cards like in this situation, where there is a big controversy. I think the controversy comes from people not knowing how the outcome comes, right now boxing judging is basically a black box where we only see the outcome without knowing for sure how things got that way. Not the fighters and not the fans, which is why we get this controversies. Most olympic sports that rely on judging like gymanstics, figure skating, and diving, have gone through this changes over the year, whereas before athletes only got the overall score from the judges, now they get a score broken down by components (like artistic and technical component), so that both the athletes and the fans know more closely how things get judged, so there is less room for talks of wrongdoing.
A school teacher in elementary school once told me “Never do anything bad even if it appears to be a good thing, and always make sure that when you do something good, it doesn’t appear to be a bad thing”. If there is the appearence of unfairness people will complain even if nothing unfair happened.
Well said. And I nominate Teddy to preside over boxing. Imagine that
by RRod806 on Nov 15, 2011 7:53 PM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
Boxing is subjective and scoring is subjective.Attempts to quantify it have not been all that effective. Compubox sucks to the base IMO
Yet you still quote Compubox when you say Manny outlanded JMM?
I agree with you. It does. on compubox… a fight ending, crippiling right hand is equal to a pitter patter jab.
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 7:54 PM EST up reply actions
My take on judging is that whenever there is a questionable scoreing, those responsible should have a sit down with the commission and justify their scores. This is a Teddy Atlas remedy by the way. Then, if a particular score (Lara-Williams, for example) is egregious, that judge needs to be weeded out. In this manner, the cream will rise to the top. Guys like Weisfeld, Feldman, Ritter, Roth, Procopio and others will rule while the bad ones leave the scene
You said that a lot better than what I attempted above :)
by Sweet science on Nov 15, 2011 7:55 PM EST up reply actions
As far as I’m concerned he has every right to be upset and can say whatever he chooses to about the outcome. After all he had a big hand in what led up and finally transpired. And I’ll never lose sympathy for Marquez on this one. He left a huge chunk of himself in the ring and in the Romanza gym. Maybe he didn’t win the fight in the eyes of some. But he sure as heck didn’t deserve the 116-112 scoring
by RRod806 on Nov 15, 2011 7:51 PM EST via iPhone app reply actions
Good lord, this fight is like the Fukushima meltdown. Hour by hour it gets crazier and crazier as all parties involved go collectively nutz. It’s kind of a trip to see what was really a very close, clean, and just plain GOOD fight boil down into such a hoo-ha in the aftermath. I mean, I get it, and I see merit in most of the points of contention regarding this fight, and I’m sympathetic to Marquez’s position and can’t fault him he feels shafted, but it seems like you usually only get this level of hand wringing and recrimination when a fight turns into an ear-biting fiasco.
I thought that was a really good night OF boxing and would have hoped that it would be a good night FOR boxing, but it feels like things are heading in a sour direction. (This is all in reference to the statements from trainers, hangers on, etc., not to the comments here, just to be clear.)
oh
but this is fun for everybody. I like a lot to read boxing forums and websites like this even if its controversy and bullshit what we are talking about. Man, I hate it when there is no news.
by Hermano Cerdo on Nov 15, 2011 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Really one can’t blame Marquez and his people for feeling the way they do. It’s something he’s sadly been through more than once. The man has 7 blemishes on his record. 6 losses and a 1 draw. I never seen his pro debut loss by DQ. So i won’t comment on it. In those 5 losses and 1 draw he by all rights deserved the loss in one of them. The Mayweather bout. In all the others he should of been the winner. Like I said I don’t blame him
All of it. Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie. I want it all.
Marquez should go back to Golden Boy and fight Devon Alexander in St. Louis. I want to know what happens.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
Marquez would take 10 of the 12 rounds yet still some how lose by SD
All of it. Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie. I want it all.
by Eugene Banks on Nov 15, 2011 8:44 PM EST up reply actions
It would be the patented, signature, non-landing jab of Devon Alexander carrying the day. GOD HE PUSHES THE ACTION WITH THAT FAST JAB
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 8:57 PM EST up reply actions
I hate Devon Alexander,
I hope he fights Zab Judah, with Erik Morales on the undercard so I can get a break from boxing that day…
http://fistonchin.com http://brightlightssports.com
you don’t like Erik Morales?
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 15, 2011 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking of which, I read a rumour that Erik Morales got a call from Schaefer asking about a potential fight with Mayweather. Not sure how true it is.
Bob Arum would promote Lucifer himself if he could put asses in the seats.
It’s the story from before. Morales is just confirming that he was, in fact, asked if he was interested. Golden Boy said they didn’t ask, but it seems they did.
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2011 12:43 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t mind Erik Morales, I just think he’s only relevant if he’s fighting a fighter like Maidana, otherwise he’ll look like he did in the two fights before Maidana.
http://fistonchin.com http://brightlightssports.com
Did you see the Cano fight? It was very good!
“I don’t mind Erik Morales” is a bizarre statement. I have no idea what to do with that. “I don’t mind Erik Morales.” What the fuck
Bad Left Hook
"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."
by Scott Christ on Nov 16, 2011 5:07 AM EST up reply actions
It was political saying it that way, meaning I don’t dislike him, Cano is another example of a fight Morales can still fight. I guess I should have mentioned him too when making my point. But I think the real Morales of today is the one everyone thought we were going to see before the bell rang for round 1 of his fight with Maidana…
He’s smart and has had a great career and I respect him for that, but if he would have fought Matthysse, he wouldn’t be on our lips right now. His relevance is only to test a young or raw boxer’s prowess rather than threaten for any kind future greatness.
At least that’s the way I see it.
http://fistonchin.com http://brightlightssports.com
Not a robbery
It is a close fight and whoever the judges favors deserved the win.

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